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GW2’s business model is at odds with its in-game rewards


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@yann.1946 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Tl;dr a model that relies more on paid dlc and expansions or expansions and a shb fee or a combination of all 3 is superior.

Yes.

But even the games with a combo of those have cash stores. And the best and/or "shiniest" items are reserved for said stores there too.

As usual in today's gaming industry, why just make money when you can make "all" the money.

Yeah, you cant avoid the cash shop but at least you can havw a fairer ratio of ingame rewards to paid ones.But "fair" is a totally subjective measurement. Personally I rarely see anything in the gemstore that I'd like to have. Most of it is way too over-the-top for my taste. On the other hand I really liked a lot of the weapon and armor skins they have given in game, and have actively adjusted my gameplay to get some of them. I have bought a couple of gliders from the gemstore (I think three at the latest count), as well as a few outfits as I enjoy the convenience of occasionally changing the look without messing with transmutations and dyes (so I can always fall back to the previous armor skins without hassle), but haven't felt the need to get any non-standard mount skins yet.

Looking from my personal point of view, the ratio between ingame and gemstore rewards is near perfect. I don't expect everybody else to share my view, as taste differs from person to person, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few people around with similar tastes like mine, either.

Its not about preference its about how much stuff we get in the gemstore vs in game. Its overwhelmingly tipped towards cash shop, esp in mount apearances, gliders, weapons etc.

This is overwhelmingly wrong for weapons.And just wrong for armour.

Yeah those skins from 2012 really hold up. The gem store is honestly out of control nowadays and it's only getting worse.

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@Vyrulisse.1246 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Tl;dr a model that relies more on paid dlc and expansions or expansions and a shb fee or a combination of all 3 is superior.

Yes.

But even the games with a combo of those have cash stores. And the best and/or "shiniest" items are reserved for said stores there too.

As usual in today's gaming industry, why just make money when you can make "all" the money.

Yeah, you cant avoid the cash shop but at least you can havw a fairer ratio of ingame rewards to paid ones.But "fair" is a totally subjective measurement. Personally I rarely see anything in the gemstore that I'd like to have. Most of it is way too over-the-top for my taste. On the other hand I really liked a lot of the weapon and armor skins they have given in game, and have actively adjusted my gameplay to get some of them. I have bought a couple of gliders from the gemstore (I think three at the latest count), as well as a few outfits as I enjoy the convenience of occasionally changing the look without messing with transmutations and dyes (so I can always fall back to the previous armor skins without hassle), but haven't felt the need to get any non-standard mount skins yet.

Looking from my personal point of view, the ratio between ingame and gemstore rewards is near perfect. I don't expect everybody else to share my view, as taste differs from person to person, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few people around with similar tastes like mine, either.

Its not about preference its about how much stuff we get in the gemstore vs in game. Its overwhelmingly tipped towards cash shop, esp in mount apearances, gliders, weapons etc.

This is overwhelmingly wrong for weapons.And just wrong for armour.

Yeah those skins from 2012 really hold up...

I'm just talking about what has been added. In both hot, s3, pof, and s4 more weapons kind have been released in game then the gemstore.

For armour pieces it depends.

But don't let your bias stop you. :)

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@Rasimir.6239 said:

@"Erasculio.2914" said:And one interesting (IMO) thought experiment:

What could ArenaNet learn from other successful MMORPGs that also use GW2's business model?

...And then stop and think:
are there
other successful MMORPGs under this business model?

We have WoW and FFXIV, both with a monthly fee and an in-game shop (and both in which there are proportionally a lot more rewards to be earned in game, because those rewards are already "paid off" by the monthly payment). We have The Old Republic (which I'm not sure I would consider a "success", but anyway), with an optional monthly fee and severe restrictions for those who don't pay it. And... Any other successful MMORPG? Any successful one with a similar business model to GW2?There's ESO. Not as bad as SW:TOR, but with material storage available only to subscribers and the game rewarding crafting materials all over the place (quite similar to GW2 actually), an hour long play session in that game already makes inventory management without subscription a major annoyance. Add the fact that the game has no centralized auction house/trading post, and you pretty much miss out on half or more of your loot, because you have no decent way to store or sell it.

Interesting, because I will dabble in ESO on occasion and have not run into this problem of running out of inventory room after an hours play time...and I don't pay the sub so I don't get the extra material storage that would come with it...but then I just sell to in game merchants, just like GW2 depending on the value...or trash the item(s), just like you can do in GW2.

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@yann.1946 said:I'm just talking about what has been added. In both hot, s3, pof, and s4 more weapons kind have been released in game then the gemstore.

For armour pieces it depends.

But don't let your bias stop you. :)

Really?

Let's see... In season 4, we got:

  • Astral weapons
  • Stellar weapons
  • Dragonsblood weapons
  • Heroic Dragonsblood weapons
  • Weapons of the Scion

Ignoring how more than half of those are basically reskins (Stellar are basically Astral weapons and Heroic Dragonsblood are basically Dragonsblood weapons, both just with a few more effects; and Weapons of the Scion are basically a reskin of the old ascended weapon skins), how many weapon sets did we get from the Gem Store at the same time?

  • The Desert King weapons
  • The Defiant Glass weapons
  • The Orchestral weapons
  • The Mad Realm weapons
  • The Inquest Mark 2 weapons
  • The Equinox weapons
  • The Alchemist weapons
  • The Glacial weapons

...And probably a few more I'm forgetting. So, as far as weapons sets go, we clearly got a lot more through the Gem Store than through the season 4.

But hey, don't let your bias stop you. :)

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@Vyrulisse.1246 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Tl;dr a model that relies more on paid dlc and expansions or expansions and a shb fee or a combination of all 3 is superior.

Yes.

But even the games with a combo of those have cash stores. And the best and/or "shiniest" items are reserved for said stores there too.

As usual in today's gaming industry, why just make money when you can make "all" the money.

Yeah, you cant avoid the cash shop but at least you can havw a fairer ratio of ingame rewards to paid ones.But "fair" is a totally subjective measurement. Personally I rarely see anything in the gemstore that I'd like to have. Most of it is way too over-the-top for my taste. On the other hand I really liked a lot of the weapon and armor skins they have given in game, and have actively adjusted my gameplay to get some of them. I have bought a couple of gliders from the gemstore (I think three at the latest count), as well as a few outfits as I enjoy the convenience of occasionally changing the look without messing with transmutations and dyes (so I can always fall back to the previous armor skins without hassle), but haven't felt the need to get any non-standard mount skins yet.

Looking from my personal point of view, the ratio between ingame and gemstore rewards is near perfect. I don't expect everybody else to share my view, as taste differs from person to person, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few people around with similar tastes like mine, either.

Its not about preference its about how much stuff we get in the gemstore vs in game. Its overwhelmingly tipped towards cash shop, esp in mount apearances, gliders, weapons etc.

This is overwhelmingly wrong for weapons.And just wrong for armour.

Yeah those skins from 2012 really hold up. The gem store is honestly out of control nowadays and it's only getting worse.

This comment doesn't really hold up. The skins from 2012 are just as good as the day they were released; the date is irrelevant. What does it even mean that the gemstore is out of control? You realize the people that patronize this company over the gemstore is what literally makes this game exist right? If anything, I want to see MORE gemstore content, not less. Not because I'm going to rush out and buy everything, but because I understand how this game works as a business.

@Dante.1508 said:They need to lower the grind on ascended gear so it can become the base line like exotics.. Even all these years after Ascended was added i still have none.. I still have no idea how to make even a single piece and i've read multiple guides.. its so complex..

Is that a real problem for you? If you can't get the mats for Ascended gear you need from the activities you do, you honestly don't need it. It's not any more complex than following the recipe for any other crafted think you can make in this game. Where is the complexity? Are you aware of the GW2 Wiki?

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@Erasculio.2914 said:

@"yann.1946" said:I'm just talking about what has been added. In both hot, s3, pof, and s4 more weapons kind have been released in game then the gemstore.

For armour pieces it depends.

But don't let your bias stop you. :)

Really?

Let's see... In season 4, we got:
  • Astral weapons
  • Stellar weapons
  • Dragonsblood weapons
  • Heroic Dragonsblood weapons
  • Weapons of the Scion

Ignoring how more than half of those are basically reskins (Stellar are basically Astral weapons and Heroic Dragonsblood are basically Dragonsblood weapons, both just with a few more effects; and Weapons of the Scion are basically a reskin of the old ascended weapon skins), how many weapon sets did we get from the Gem Store at the same time?
  • The Desert King weapons
  • The Defiant Glass weapons
  • The Orchestral weapons
  • The Mad Realm weapons
  • The Inquest Mark 2 weapons
  • The Equinox weapons
  • The Alchemist weapons
  • The Glacial weapons

...And probably a few more I'm forgetting. So, as far as weapons sets go, we clearly got a lot more through the Gem Store than through the season 4.

But hey, don't let your bias stop you. :)

Yes you are forgetting some, namely all the standalone weapons who where added.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/ckqmvw/a_thorough_overview_of_ingame_rewards_from_hot/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/cnm14q/a_thorough_overview_of_rewards_part_ii_gem_store/

It would be usefull to chech the graphs from the second link

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@"Erasculio.2914" said:how many weapon sets did we get from the Gem Store at the same time?

  • The Desert King weapons
  • The Defiant Glass weapons
  • The Orchestral weapons
  • The Mad Realm weapons
  • The Inquest Mark 2 weapons
  • The Equinox weapons
  • The Alchemist weapons
  • The Glacial weaponsAll of those are ticket weapons, which are in an odd spot in this discussion, since, while not dropping directly as a reward in-game, do drop often enough that they are a lot easier to get than any of the weapons you listed as "in game". Personally I have a lot of ticket weapon skins (especially orchestral and alchemist, since I love those sets) and about 10 more tickets waiting in my bank for future ticket weapons I might like, and that is without ever buying a single key, farming for gold, or even just playing a lot. The gold, tickets, and occasional key have just accumulated over the years.
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@Zaklex.6308 said:

@"Erasculio.2914" said:And one interesting (IMO) thought experiment:

What could ArenaNet learn from other successful MMORPGs that also use GW2's business model?

...And then stop and think:
are there
other successful MMORPGs under this business model?

We have WoW and FFXIV, both with a monthly fee and an in-game shop (and both in which there are proportionally a lot more rewards to be earned in game, because those rewards are already "paid off" by the monthly payment). We have The Old Republic (which I'm not sure I would consider a "success", but anyway), with an optional monthly fee and severe restrictions for those who don't pay it. And... Any other successful MMORPG? Any successful one with a similar business model to GW2?There's ESO. Not as bad as SW:TOR, but with material storage available only to subscribers and the game rewarding crafting materials all over the place (quite similar to GW2 actually), an hour long play session in that game already makes inventory management without subscription a major annoyance. Add the fact that the game has no centralized auction house/trading post, and you pretty much miss out on half or more of your loot, because you have no decent way to store or sell it.

Interesting, because I will dabble in ESO on occasion and have not run into this problem of running out of inventory room after an hours play time...and I don't pay the sub so I don't get the extra material storage that would come with it...but then I just sell to in game merchants, just like GW2 depending on the value...or trash the item(s), just like you can do in GW2.Do you honestly sell materials to vendors in GW2? Selling them at the trading post is so convenient and gives you a lot more coin.

And yes, I do constantly run out of bag space in ESO, even though I have about 200 slots each in my main's inventory and my account bank. There are several hundred different crafting materials, and if you are a crafter and want to store those materials (because you don't have the time to run around the world looking for a guild trader that sells them at an affordable price, especially since you are comparatively poor from only being able to sell your loot to vendors) you quickly run out of room. I've been playing that game on and off since headstart, and the only time I ever play these days is if they have a free sub weekend that moves the accumulated crafting materials to the material bag, and a couple of weeks after until characters and bank are filled again.

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@yann.1946 said:

@yann.1946 said:I'm just talking about what has been added. In both hot, s3, pof, and s4 more weapons kind have been released in game then the gemstore.

For armour pieces it depends.

But don't let your bias stop you. :)

Really?

Let's see... In season 4, we got:
  • Astral weapons
  • Stellar weapons
  • Dragonsblood weapons
  • Heroic Dragonsblood weapons
  • Weapons of the Scion

Ignoring how more than half of those are basically reskins (Stellar are basically Astral weapons and Heroic Dragonsblood are basically Dragonsblood weapons, both just with a few more effects; and Weapons of the Scion are basically a reskin of the old ascended weapon skins), how many weapon sets did we get from the Gem Store at the same time?
  • The Desert King weapons
  • The Defiant Glass weapons
  • The Orchestral weapons
  • The Mad Realm weapons
  • The Inquest Mark 2 weapons
  • The Equinox weapons
  • The Alchemist weapons
  • The Glacial weapons

...And probably a few more I'm forgetting. So, as far as weapons sets go, we clearly got a lot more through the Gem Store than through the season 4.

But hey, don't let your bias stop you. :)

Yes you are forgetting some, namely all the standalone weapons who where added.

It would be usefull to chech the graphs from the second link

Cute.

Too bad that's wrong.

It's not a good idea to believe everything you read on the internet without checking for yourself ;)

Although I guess that's the problem with a biased point of view.

Your buddy has forgotten multiple weapon sets introduced in the Gem Store during season 4, such as...

  • The Desert King weapons
  • The Inquest Mark 2 weapons
  • The Equinox weapons
  • The Alchemist weapons

When talking about weapon skins released in-game during season 4, he listed 17 weapon skins ("Design-a-Weapon (3), Asef's Brew, Barud's Blunderbuss, Darkspear, Randa's Eviscerator, Sunspear, Sunscythe, Inquest Megaspanner, Inquest Tuning Rod, Olmakhan Beacon, Phase Scalpel, Branded Eye of Argon, Staff of the Inevitable, Ancestral Guard, Rockcrusher").

When talking about standalone weapon skins released in the Gem Store during season 4, he listed 10 weapon skins.

Considering how a single weapon set has 16 new skins, we have:

Available in game through season 4:

  • 5 weapon sets (more than half of which are reskins, but anyway): 80 weapons
  • 17 standalone weapon skins (according to your buddy in the links above)

In a total of 97 new weapon skins.

Now, when talking about available through the Gem Store during season 4:

  • 11 weapon sets: 176 weapons
  • 10 standalone weapon skins (according to your buddy in the links above)

In a total of 186 weapon skins.

In other words, we got nearly twice as many weapon skins in the Gem Store than available in game through the Living World season 4 :s

But hey, if you want to believe that's a fair spread, you do you. :)

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@Rasimir.6239 said:

@"Erasculio.2914" said:But hey, if you want to believe that's a fair spread, you do you. :)Mixing ticket skins in with regular gemstore-exclusive content doesn't help your argument.

Considering BL stuff to be "in-game" doesn't help yours. Whatever that is.

BL skins are still gem store skins. They don't magically appear on the TP. Someone has spent money on keys (a gem store item) for them to be there. And then gambled on chests. Unless you think all those skins on the TP come from map completion keys.

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@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:BL skins are still gem store skins.

IMO, they are the worst kind of gem store skin. Most of the time, if someone wants a skin from the store, they can just buy it. Not for the Black Lion Chest skins - those are hidden behind a predatory loot box scheme.

"Just buy them from the trade house!" - which means rewarding people who fell for the loot box scheme. No matter how you run, the BL weapon skins not only are gem store exclusives, they also fuel people's gambling addiction.

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@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@"Erasculio.2914" said:But hey, if you want to believe that's a fair spread, you do you. :)Mixing ticket skins in with regular gemstore-exclusive content doesn't help your argument.

Considering BL stuff to be "in-game" doesn't help yours. Whatever that is.

BL skins are still gem store skins. They don't magically appear on the TP. Someone has spent money on keys (a gem store item) for them to be there. And then gambled on chests. Unless you think all those skins on the TP come from map completion keys.I never claimed them to be ingame rewards either. Ticket skins are in an odd place, neither gemstore exclusive nor ingame exclusive. If I want a fair comparison between the two, I can't count ticket skins exclusively for either side.
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When cosmetics are both your endgame and your financial interest then the biggest thing to take a hit is prestige.

If Gw2 lacks anything it's those super rare, super desierable prestigious items that only a few players have.Back at launch Legendary weapons used to hold some level of prestige but over time they've become so common that it's actually rarer to see people running around using basic skins like Krytan or Seraph weapons..There are still a few in the game though such as some infusions etc but it's not enough.

Likewise the abundance of worthless and easily aquirable titles completely killed any relevance the title system even has in the game, almost nobody even cares about titles anymore which is a shame considering there were a number of desierable titles in Gw1 such as the fabled GWAMM and legendary cartographer which a lot of players dedicated a lot of time and effort to getting, including myself on the Cartographer.

It would be very nice for Gw2 to have something akin to the Hall of Monuments in Gw1, some player house location that each player can decorate and display their favourite skins, mounts, armours, minipets, titles/achievements etc as well introducing some challenging solo content that would drop some kind of special exclusive gear to act as proof of your success or something.Anet has already experimented with this kind of content with the Gauntlet areana's.Some of us were hoping that the Suns Refuge would do something similar to this or at the very least act as some kind of new multiracial home instance but that ended up being a massive disappointement that didn't even allow you to experience it more than once since it's intergrated into achievements.. such a waste of potential.

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@Rasimir.6239 said:

@Erasculio.2914 said:But hey, if you want to believe that's a fair spread, you do you. :)Mixing ticket skins in with regular gemstore-exclusive content doesn't help your argument.

Uhu.

Let's see...

@Rasimir.6239 said:Personally I have a lot of ticket weapon skins (especially orchestral and alchemist, since I love those sets) and about 10 more tickets waiting in my bank for future ticket weapons I might like, and that is without ever buying a single key, farming for gold, or even just playing a lot. The gold, tickets, and occasional key have just accumulated over the years.

So, ignoring everything you have already used, you have 10 tickets.

The interesting thing about those is that they don't drop in game - if you take a look at their wiki page, they are earned either as a drop from the Black Lion Chests, or from converting them through Black Lion Ticket Scraps (and more recently statuettes), or from BL weapon collections. Ignoring the collections (since those require more tickets than you earn), for 10 tickets you would need:

  • 10 Black Lion Claim Tickets earned from chests
  • 100 Black Lion Claim Ticket Scraps earned from chests
  • 500 Black Lion Statuettes earned from chests

Or any combination of the above.

Looking, for example, at the drop rate research for Black Lion Chests from October 2018, we see the drop rate of:

  • Black Lion Claim Tickets: 0.007 per chest
  • 100 Black Lion Claim Ticket Scraps: 0.35 per chest

So, in order to earn 10 tickets from chest, the average player would have to open 1.429 chests. In order to earn 100 ticket scraps, the average player would have to open 286 chests.

I do wonder how would one get so many keys without "ever buying a single key, farming for gold, or even just playing a lot".

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I disagree. Guildwars one had, argurmently, some lovely armour sets available in game. Then a few years down the line they introduced store skins and I still brought some even although I had my lovely FoW, kurzick/luxon/generally nice to the eye armour. Armour/weapon skins here are ugly to make you buy, but even if they did bring in some really really nice Guildwars one quality skins in game, I don't think it would hamper their profit too much. We are talking about a community here that buys chairs.

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