Jump to content
  • Sign Up

The sustain of Holosmith is nuts....it's just broken


Arheundel.6451

Recommended Posts

@Aylpse.6280 said:This spec is killing pvp for me. It isn't fun to fight at all. You can outplay a holo all day and they won't be punished for even the slightest misstep. So much sustain AND the ability to reset the fight? Forgive me, Mesmer gods. Little did I know you were the lesser evil.

Although I agree with u holo isn't the only spec that can do this. If u 1v1 a really good scourge for example they'll pop their barrier everytime there close to being downed resulting in a fight that takes for ever and chances are if u don't match the sustain they'll water u down. Water if trated for on ele can do the same thing as I've done it. Scourge can't kill much but it can be almost impossible to down solo so u either leave or a 1vx happens in either favor. Overall bursts are way too high across the board but there are a few specs with builds that are way to high in self sustain. The other night I was fighting a scourge and had the one or two hits from downstate and everytime they'd pop a barrier that was enough to keep the scourge alive to chip me down. Without barrier the scourge woulda died 4 times over as that's how many times they popped it in one long fight and eventually I had to either leave or just try and go all 8n and I got greedy and tried and died lol. With that said most scourges arnt too difficult but ones that know how are crazy sustain wise. Holo has too much of everything tho in holo forge. Low CD,boon applications, dps, hard cc's with crazy range and duration as due to wave like aplication of shockwave a well timed evade does nothing as far as avoiding the cc. It has 900 ranged great dps pistol skill to compliment the leap and great melee skills, some of the best utilitiy and traits and to top it off insane healing with turret and blast fields that can heal to almost max hp each time. There's a reason their everywhere these days.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:About engi....
the only hard nerf was the removal of passive Elixir S
and a slap on the wrist with corona blast stability trait....let's not consider the "removal" of rifle shooting without LoS as nerfs...other professions got that treatment several years ago ( like ele phoenix or comet ).

We are here today because everybody else got hard nerfed already and engi got left out and
my thought is because it doesn't seem to be very popular in pve raids or general open world
, so the devs drag their feet with engi when it comes to nerfs

Your first mistake was looking at it by each profession as a whole. Second mistake was purposefully leaving out that Engi(Scrapper) had Rapid Regeneration, Adaptive Armor, Perfectly Weighted, Recovery Matrix, F5 skill all functionally deleted in favor of things that have much less sustain and utility. You went through every spec that recently got gutted, but I'm guessing Scrapper didn't make your thorough list of nerfs every profession has gotten cause' it didn't fit your narrative that ArenaNet purposefully let's Engineers fall under the radar. It's in the same boat that Druid is. Keep the discussion to Holo specifically and you won't look as biased

Some number nerfing on Heat therapy won't magically cause a drop of Holo from OP to UP state and we both know that....

Wat

It's literally a free bonus heal less every 20 seconds or less. It's a reward for going full ham as fast as possible. If your goal is to nerf sustain, it's one of the most obvious targets. It's also never been nerfed, and a ripe target for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Aylpse.6280 said:This spec is killing pvp for me. It isn't fun to fight at all. You can outplay a holo all day and they won't be punished for even the slightest misstep. So much sustain AND the ability to reset the fight? Forgive me, Mesmer gods. Little did I know you were the lesser evil.

That's what's most aggravating. Even a higher skill player can outplay a holo till they're 25%, and then you see how OP they are. Invuln, stealth, heal to full, superspeed escape.

What's worst is holos Cooldowns are so low, once they cowardly run away, they'll return as if the fight never happened and try again till you die

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Stallic.2397 said:

@"Aylpse.6280" said:This spec is killing pvp for me. It isn't fun to fight at all. You can outplay a holo all day and they won't be punished for even the slightest misstep. So much sustain AND the ability to reset the fight? Forgive me, Mesmer gods. Little did I know you were the lesser evil.

That's what's most aggravating. Even a higher skill player can outplay a holo till they're 25%, and then you see how OP they are. Invuln, stealth, heal to full, superspeed escape.

What's worst is holos Cooldowns are so low, once they cowardly run away, they'll return as if the fight never happened and try again till you die

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"googel.3278" said:Kek, sounds like someone wants ele to not be toppled against having another class that can do better, pretty sure nike eles alon with massive sustain and heals want more out from their bargain. “anet pls give me more runs”

The best option would be to cut by 80% the current sustain of all specs that don't use a healing amulet to have sustain.... like it has always been eles, for example I would cut
Monk's focus
from base 2k heal to 300 at 0 healing power , I would do so for all specs and also lower the dmg coefficient of all specs that do zerker level of dmg while using amulets like demolisher or paladin...you should go glass cannon with zero sustain to have burst..like eles do.

How that sound like idea?

That idea sounds absolutely, incredibly stupid. Guardian has 11k base health and is one of two classes that doesn't have any evade frames on either weapon or utility skills. It also has less blocks than most other classes out there, with the exception of Ele, thief and necro. It is the only class without any form of swiftness in their "meta" build since HoT.

So if you want to have a slow, sluggish class with no damage (if you're forced into healing power) then go right ahead.

The reason Ele has sustain isn't because of healing power. It's sole reason why it stays alive is the massive amount of evade frames, and invuln frames they have. Namely Riptide, Earthern Vortex, Twist of Faith and Obsidian Flesh. Losing those at the cost of an additional 3000 healing power would make them squishier.

I agree that some classes have too much sustain without healing power, but your example is probably the worst one you could have possibly went for.Revs sustain by chaining evades, so they won't get hit by your nerf per say. Same with ranger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"googel.3278" said:Kek, sounds like someone wants ele to not be toppled against having another class that can do better, pretty sure nike eles alon with massive sustain and heals want more out from their bargain. “anet pls give me more runs”

The best option would be to cut by 80% the current sustain of all specs that don't use a healing amulet to have sustain.... like it has always been eles, for example I would cut
Monk's focus
from base 2k heal to 300 at 0 healing power , I would do so for all specs and also lower the dmg coefficient of all specs that do zerker level of dmg while using amulets like demolisher or paladin...you should go glass cannon with zero sustain to have burst..like eles do.

How that sound like idea?

That idea sounds absolutely, incredibly stupid. Guardian has 11k base health and is one of two classes that doesn't have
any
evade frames on either weapon or utility skills. It also has less blocks than most other classes out there, with the exception of Ele, thief and necro. It is
the only
class without any form of swiftness in their "meta" build since HoT.

So if you want to have a slow, sluggish class with no damage (if you're forced into healing power) then go right ahead.

The reason Ele has sustain isn't because of healing power. It's sole reason why it stays alive is the massive amount of evade frames, and invuln frames they have. Namely Riptide, Earthern Vortex, Twist of Faith and Obsidian Flesh. Losing those at the cost of an additional 3000 healing power would make them squishier.

I agree that some classes have too much sustain without healing power, but your example is probably the worst one you could have possibly went for.Revs sustain by chaining evades, so they won't get hit by your nerf per say. Same with ranger.

To be precise, that's sword/focus weaver (as cheesy as it can get). I don't have that much luxury on my core ele :/ I kinda agree with both of you though, some specs have too much sustain without stat investment, and low stat classes aren't always rewarded for investing into healing power. I wish healing power somehow mitigates condition damage, like toughness does for direct damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@crepuscular.9047 said:weavers are worse than holos when it comes to sustain and mobility, can easily jump into a fight with 3 bruts and run away if things doesnt look to go too well

Wrong, Weaver gets popped by any and all thieves, any form of shatter mesmer, meta herald, Spellbreaker (or warrior in all forms) , Ranger, high dps guardians, reapers.

Anything that does any form of high power breaks Weaver in two as soon as those dodges and evades. Best part is, is they can't evade as much as DD, so they still are mediocre. Also they have maybe one stability ability that is also bugged. So, no, they are not 'worse'.

0/10 bait.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@knite.1542 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Tried condi renegade today for the first time. rekt 2 holo's.

Whats the issue again?

An entire 2? Then it's settled. Holo is fine. I support this conclusion.

Since you clearly fail to see the point and went the sarcastic route, I'll wait to see if/when you get it. When ya do, then we can continue the conversation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Tried condi renegade today for the first time. rekt 2 holo's.

Whats the issue again?

An entire 2? Then it's settled. Holo is fine. I support this conclusion.

Since you clearly fail to see the point and went the sarcastic route, I'll wait to see if/when you get it. When ya do, then we can continue the conversation.

The problem with Holo is how much it gets baseline from the spec. It's a free high damage kit with what amounts to a free healing signet through heat therapy then you buff that up via traits. So what this means is when there's no condition specs to worry about they are a very strong high pressure bruiser. When there's condi builds they can switch to Prot Holo with varying amounts of stats for either almost infinite sustain or quite a bit of damage while being very hard to kill. Alternatively they can swap in a cleansing sigil and leadership rune which if combined with Power Wrench can give more cleansing power as well as more frequent use of 1 of 2 insanely strong elites.

It's basically a do it all spec at the moment with no real trade offs apart from try not to get caught with your pants down. Yes I got your point of run a counter, usually conditions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:weavers are worse than holos when it comes to sustain and mobility, can easily jump into a fight with 3 bruts and run away if things doesnt look to go too well

Wrong, Weaver gets popped by any and all thieves, any form of shatter mesmer, meta herald, Spellbreaker (or warrior in all forms) , Ranger, high dps guardians, reapers.

Anything that does any form of high power breaks Weaver in two as soon as those dodges and evades. Best part is, is they can't evade as much as DD, so they still are mediocre. Also they have maybe one stability ability that is also bugged. So, no, they are not 'worse'.

0/10 bait.

very much depending on the player, the build they run, the skills of the opposing players

if you are talking about plat or above, sure the burst classes may kill them on 1v1

but if you are talking about under plat, the majority of the time weaver will not have issue winning 1v1 against burst classes; i believe the flavour the of the month is to jump into mid node fight with obsidian flesh, pump out lots of barrier, kill a guys or two and riptide out

don't get me wrong, i do love playing weaver because it's an extremely fun class to play for me, but I do find their sustain to be slightly over tuned, Anet just need to bring things down by 5-10% so it can become a high risk high reward class like power revs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The sustain of holosmith isn't the issue, engineer has always operated under a medium / low healthpool and uses ( arguably the best heal skill in the game ) in conjuction with leap/ blast finishers in water fields to resustain. This isn't news, it's good at everything - and good against everything. I'm talking about tools holo here btw, thats the DPS spec. Among players of equal skill it can 1v1 most classes with the exception of weaver, it also is one of the best teamfight options as it has loads of CC, team support / utility, as well very high damage output. It also does extremely well in smaller fights, 2v2s, ect. The reason for this is because previously CI mirage was the thing keeping holosmith from being so dominating, the on demand instant CC to catch the healing turret as well as constant condi pressure and immob lockdown kept holo from shining, but now that CI has been disabled we've seen what holo can do unchecked.Honestly - I'm no expert on Holo so I won't pretend I know exactly what should be done to balance it - but it seems like anet took a step in the right direction with the suggestion shockwave range decrease.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:How can a holosmtih with a
demolisher amulet
heals for far more than a
mender tempest
?

They don't.

Interrupt their heal. Interrupt their combo finishers in their water field if you miss the intterrupt on their heal.

Easier said than done considering you can expect a holosmith to both be covered by Stability a majority of the time and/or do it while quickness boosted, or while dropping a quickness boosted Toss Elixir S,
then
doing it.

But seriously, I've done the math. Healing Turret is heads and shoulders above almost every healing outside of extremely situational healing skills like Herald's Infuse Light and Warrior's Defensive Stance even before they start comboing into the field with other skills.

theyre not covered in stab a majority of the time though

you dodge corona, you negate their 1 of 2 forms of stab (other coming from elixir) - you should be avoiding corona anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:I dont know what everyone is complaining about, killing holos is easy. Let me break it down for you.

  1. First you need to reflect their rifle net/knockback, if you dont have reflect you need to dodge/block etc.
  2. Then they will do their rifle 5 leap or forge 2, both hit for a lot so you need to dodge that too. also they probably used their stab+quickness elixir so you cant cc them, you have to dodge.
  3. Next they will do their forge 3 which gives them more stab, so you need to dodge that too.
  4. After this comes their real burst with forge 5/4. This is a strong mid-ranged cc burst so its very important that you dodge this.
  5. At this point you have a very small opening to retaliate. The holo usually will kite away and use their block utility so you need to use your unblockable burst in order to damage them. If you dont have unblockable burst you need to wait out the 3s block duration, While avoiding their strong constant ranged damage.
  6. Now is the time to do some damage, assuming they havent stealthed, gone invuln, or kited away with forge 2.
  7. If you manage to get them below 50% hp, their passive barrier&protection will proc which means you probably cant kill them now, you need to wait for the barrier&protection to fade away.
  8. The holo probably has forge ready again, so you need to dodge their forge 3, 4, 5 and dodge/block their autos since you cant kite them.
  9. Assuming you have played nearly perfectly up until this point, this is your chance to go for the kill. You need to burst them from around 50% - 0% before they can react and use their invuln. If they manage to get it off, they will run away, heal to full using their turret, and reset the fight from step 1.

If you get cced at any time, you need to stunbreak immediately and use your other defensive cooldowns, otherwise you will be chain cced, or chased down and killed since you cant kite them. Also if they are running the elite elixir, you need to save your defensive cooldowns in case they get rampage, and if they are using prime light beam its a 1200 range unblockable cc that does a ton of damage, so you need to dodge that too.

Its really easy guys.

Of course! Let's worry about the 9 things in sequence we have to do to kill a holosmith in order while we have the constant pressure of 4 other players to worry about!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Aridon.8362 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:I dont know what everyone is complaining about, killing holos is easy. Let me break it down for you.
  1. First you need to reflect their rifle net/knockback, if you dont have reflect you need to dodge/block etc.
  2. Then they will do their rifle 5 leap or forge 2, both hit for a lot so you need to dodge that too. also they probably used their stab+quickness elixir so you cant cc them, you have to dodge.
  3. Next they will do their forge 3 which gives them more stab, so you need to dodge that too.
  4. After this comes their real burst with forge 5/4. This is a strong mid-ranged cc burst so its very important that you dodge this.
  5. At this point you have a very small opening to retaliate. The holo usually will kite away and use their block utility so you need to use your unblockable burst in order to damage them. If you dont have unblockable burst you need to wait out the 3s block duration, While avoiding their strong constant ranged damage.
  6. Now is the time to do some damage, assuming they havent stealthed, gone invuln, or kited away with forge 2.
  7. If you manage to get them below 50% hp, their passive barrier&protection will proc which means you probably cant kill them now, you need to wait for the barrier&protection to fade away.
  8. The holo probably has forge ready again, so you need to dodge their forge 3, 4, 5 and dodge/block their autos since you cant kite them.
  9. Assuming you have played nearly perfectly up until this point, this is your chance to go for the kill. You need to burst them from around 50% - 0% before they can react and use their invuln. If they manage to get it off, they will run away, heal to full using their turret, and reset the fight from step 1.

If you get cced at any time, you need to stunbreak immediately and use your other defensive cooldowns, otherwise you will be chain cced, or chased down and killed since you cant kite them. Also if they are running the elite elixir, you need to save your defensive cooldowns in case they get rampage, and if they are using prime light beam its a 1200 range unblockable cc that does a ton of damage, so you need to dodge that too.

Its really easy guys.

Of course! Let's worry about the 9 things in sequence we have to do to kill a holosmith in order while we have the constant pressure of 4 other players to worry about!

Because you balance around 1v5s of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How? I mean really how? I have met my share of good holosmiths but their skill lvl was higher then me. They wouldve won with any other profession. I have slain my share of holos too and they are not that horrible really. According to the forums every profession is OP and needs immediate and harsh nerfs. And people give tournament champs as an example when majority of the players do not see even gold. It is impossible to debate on a class in this forum meta.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:About engi....
the only hard nerf was the removal of passive Elixir S
and a slap on the wrist with corona blast stability trait....let's not consider the "removal" of rifle shooting without LoS as nerfs...other professions got that treatment several years ago ( like ele phoenix or comet ).

We are here today because everybody else got hard nerfed already and engi got left out and
my thought is because it doesn't seem to be very popular in pve raids or general open world
, so the devs drag their feet with engi when it comes to nerfs

Your first mistake was looking at it by each profession as a whole. Second mistake was purposefully leaving out that Engi(Scrapper) had Rapid Regeneration, Adaptive Armor, Perfectly Weighted, Recovery Matrix, F5 skill all functionally deleted in favor of things that have much less sustain and utility. You went through every spec that recently got gutted, but I'm guessing Scrapper didn't make your thorough list of nerfs every profession has gotten cause' it didn't fit your narrative that ArenaNet purposefully let's Engineers fall under the radar. It's in the same boat that Druid is. Keep the discussion to Holo specifically and you won't look as biased

Some number nerfing on Heat therapy won't magically cause a drop of Holo from OP to UP state and we both know that....We first nerf the overperforming specs and then we keep going with the conversation which by the way would require all parties involved to have working knowledge of all other classes and the conditions under which they operate, that does not seem to be the case now...unless you want to tell us why other specs should be nerfed

So I have to admit I'm disappointed you summarized all suggestions to balance holo as just magical heat therapy changes. That's just flat out wrong

Changes slated to happen:
  • 20% Less damage on corona burst
  • 300 Less radius on Holo Shockwave

My extended suggestions ITT alone
  • Exit Photon Forge no longer counting as a Toolbelt
  • Quickness no longer affecting wind up of corona burst
  • Elixir U cooldown nerfed
  • Heat Therapy reduced ranging from shaved to gutted, you can affect Holos performance drastically from a hard nerf to this trait, most plebs don't realize venting a bar of heat by dodges or waiting is equivalent to a healing skill.. Maybe making heat therapy only function well with high healing stat, just an idea.

You mentioned yourself your goalpost is to take Holo from OP to UP. Seeing as that would make every Engi spec underpowered in PvP, maybe consider aiming for balance instead of whack a mole

Nowhere in my OP I stated what you claim...what benefit would I get from seeing another class reduced from OP to UP? With all said and done, a strong reduction on quickness access would be more than welcome and possibly would be enough to reduce holo efficiency.

Although do remember that these changes would in no way require nerfs to other classes : shaves are not hard nerfs and these changes if applied would not stop Holo from performing its intended role of brawler/side node . Holo would still maintain its mobility, above average sustain and dmg....what more could you possibly want that could not be achieved eitherway?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...