Why do the Permastealth Classes Have Ports? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why do the Permastealth Classes Have Ports?

Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

I'm sure everyone's experienced an engaging, hard-fought back-and-forth over a keep suddenly come to an end half an hour after inner was last breached due to some Deadeye or Mesmer hiding away in some corner. This is clearly unhealthy, but the tools we've been given to deal with it are woefully inadequate.

A handful of specs have hard counters, but you'd need a legion of them to actually tag the target...and if it's a Deadeye, you have to tag it multiple times in a short period. There are traps, but they're about as useful as a toothbrush made out of a cactus. So the reality is that dozens of defenders are left to scour a keep and try to lay eyes on the creature. They must carry this on ad infinitum or all of their effort will be nulled. This is not fun.


As you may have guessed, I just had an Osprey's Palace flip out of the blue to this. We had been defending it for over an hour, with constant attacks and plenty of roaming action around the surrounding camps. It was WvW at its best. They had breached Inner a couple of times early on and each time we swept every nook and cranny for DEs and Mesmers. We managed to kill a few, but one can never be sure that they're all dead. Right before the flip, two groups were hitting the same south wall with catapults in different locations and we had a pretty exciting multi-level fight where we were outnumbered, but still managed to kill the catas and a few of the enemies. They did serious damage that we couldn't easily repair as there were roaming groups choking our supply lines, so while we won the fight, they also had something to brag about. The constant action seemed to draw people out of the woodwork. We had more people on the BL than we've had since Reset, plenty of communication in map chat and allies willing and ready to respond to all manner of call-outs...but with the stolen cap, all of that momentum soured. I doubt it was much fun for the other server either, beyond a brief moment of schadenfreude.

So, while WvW clearly has myriad problems, I'm confused as to why this one is getting worse instead of better. We get enemies marked after a cap, new traps to mark enemies and the dubious Sniff skill on Warclaw as if that's supposed to turn this into 'engaging gameplay.' That's never going to work, especially against Deadeye...it's just adding layers of bandages onto a festering wound. Does Anet want this to be a thing or not?

Comments

  • Because Commanders, defenders, and players in general have gotten LAZY in Sweeping a Keep, Tower, or Garrison after a breach at a wall or gate. When you have become lazy and refuse to do a sweep, because it's a "Time Waster"....why is it a time waster again? Ohhhh that's right. Because you want to have "FUN" and "GET BACK INTO THE FIGHT" as quickly as humanly possible. That means, they broke in, you wiped the enemy, and then you plugged the wall. Immediately you all leave, and then say to maybe ONE guy that may or may NOT stick around to "check for any straggling enemy inside still.... OHMYGOD you people have become truly and brutally lazy when it comes down to Sweeping for Mesmer's. Now it's even WORSE. Deadeyes, perpetual permastealth. And the great thing is...your little Trap to make them popup to be seen...lasts for a short span of time. If your not near the area with enough body's with a lot of DPS....the deadeye just recloaks...and your stuck for the next hour hunting his kitten down. But how is this worse....that he can now port people inside.... So you got a permastealth porter, with a allied team, who refuses to lay down traps or even do a casual sweep.

    On that note, yes, you do deserve to lose that location, because of pure laziness, because Sweeping is BORING. Just admit that.

  • @KeyOrion.9506 said:
    Because Commanders, defenders, and players in general have gotten LAZY in Sweeping a Keep, Tower, or Garrison after a breach at a wall or gate. When you have become lazy and refuse to do a sweep, because it's a "Time Waster"....why is it a time waster again? Ohhhh that's right. Because you want to have "FUN" and "GET BACK INTO THE FIGHT" as quickly as humanly possible. That means, they broke in, you wiped the enemy, and then you plugged the wall. Immediately you all leave, and then say to maybe ONE guy that may or may NOT stick around to "check for any straggling enemy inside still.... OHMYGOD you people have become truly and brutally lazy when it comes down to Sweeping for Mesmer's. Now it's even WORSE. Deadeyes, perpetual permastealth. And the great thing is...your little Trap to make them popup to be seen...lasts for a short span of time. If your not near the area with enough body's with a lot of DPS....the deadeye just recloaks...and your stuck for the next hour hunting his kitten down. But how is this worse....that he can now port people inside.... So you got a permastealth porter, with a allied team, who refuses to lay down traps or even do a casual sweep.

    On that note, yes, you do deserve to lose that location, because of pure laziness, because Sweeping is BORING. Just admit that.

    This is true.
    As an off-hour scout, I call out when keeps are attacked and usually our commanders react bringing their big zergs to defend and chase off the enemy.
    After the enemy is beaten back, the commander leaves the map with his blob.
    Sometimes they don't even bother repairing the broken walls or gates.
    They just fight and then leave.
    I had to spend the next 15 mins repairing the walls/gates alone with my fellow scouts.
    No sweeps no repairs nothing.
    Not that I'm too upset since repairing gives rather decent WxP.

    Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

    CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ

  • In year one, we were having Tactical arguments about using supplies within a keep vs. running supplies from a camp. I timed myself on a camp run for repairs on multiple walls that were damaged on multiple sides. Took me 4 hours. That's pulling supplies strictly from camps. I started using supplies in a keep, and I was getting called a Troll. Tactically I needed the walls repaired as quickly as possible, or it may appear to enemy forces that we had neither the resources or body's in order to fix things up. It makes it look like we're bleeding morally, and bodily. That and I knew if I didn't repair fast enough...chances are the enemy, if they came back, would be able to break in even quicker than before.

    Still. Off the topic.

    It's up to the Commander to lead a sweep, or hammer it into his players that follow him to commit to a sweep. Just a half dozen players laying down Traps near most common movement areas of ramps/stairs/bridges/walkways. It helps pinpoint problems that stay inside an area that has been breached. Of course...that only works if there's a team to standby and wait if something DOES show up in the breached area. Worst case scenario I ever saw. We had outer breach. We then had inner breach. Team came, wiped everything in sight. Or so we thought. Six minutes after the assault, we had scouts on north, south, and west of hills. But we were being lit up. On a hunch, I asked when was the last time we were breached. Six minutes they responded. So I went to lords room. There in lords room was a single Firebrand soloing the lord. Lord was down to 33%. The Firebrand was just pounding him without a care in the world, and taking NO fricken DAMAGE. I called out, the scouts had to move to lords to deal with it.

    Then the commander started to kitten. "Who didn't catch that! Who let that guy in there! Whose responsible."

    My response, "You are. You had inner and outer breach, and you refused to stay with your zerg to sweep for enemy stragglers." We didn't get along very well after that.

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493
    I don't have any issue with an engineer hiding and soloing a tower lord. There's enough counterplay for that since they can't be stealthed forever without many tells.

    But I don't understand why you say it can only happen with paper. Palace was T3, in this case, and had only made it to T3 after hours and hours of fighting to keep supply lines open. And while it is technically fair, that's not really the issue. Bypassing a wall with a warclaw is technically fair because, theoretically, anyone can do it. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing to have in the game.

    @KeyOrion.9506
    I don't know who hurt you, but I guess you missed the part where I said we swept the place. We had about 20 people searching for long enough that participation dropped a tier for an unknown number of deadeyes and we killed a couple. Apparently, we missed one. If you consider that lazy, well...

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, as many mount defenders have said, if Anet put it in, its the direction they want the game to go.

    So, as they say: aDaPT oR DoN’t

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • I'm a roamer. I spend my play time capping objectives and killing anything that comes for it until a large enough group shows up that I can't handle it. If I can sneak into a tower and cap it, I will, because this is no different than a havok group waiting for an enemy to open the wall and stealing the cap. It's fair game. Anything I do that causes a disproportionately large number of players to have to deal with me instead of with the tag is a win. So I'd say it's working as intended, honestly.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @KeyOrion.9506 said:
    Because Commanders, defenders, and players in general have gotten LAZY in Sweeping a Keep, Tower, or Garrison after a breach at a wall or gate. When you have become lazy and refuse to do a sweep, because it's a "Time Waster"....why is it a time waster again? Ohhhh that's right. Because you want to have "FUN" and "GET BACK INTO THE FIGHT" as quickly as humanly possible. That means, they broke in, you wiped the enemy, and then you plugged the wall. Immediately you all leave, and then say to maybe ONE guy that may or may NOT stick around to "check for any straggling enemy inside still.... OHMYGOD you people have become truly and brutally lazy when it comes down to Sweeping for Mesmer's. Now it's even WORSE. Deadeyes, perpetual permastealth. And the great thing is...your little Trap to make them popup to be seen...lasts for a short span of time. If your not near the area with enough body's with a lot of DPS....the deadeye just recloaks...and your stuck for the next hour hunting his kitten down. But how is this worse....that he can now port people inside.... So you got a permastealth porter, with a allied team, who refuses to lay down traps or even do a casual sweep.

    On that note, yes, you do deserve to lose that location, because of pure laziness, because Sweeping is BORING. Just admit that.

    This is true.
    As an off-hour scout, I call out when keeps are attacked and usually our commanders react bringing their big zergs to defend and chase off the enemy.
    After the enemy is beaten back, the commander leaves the map with his blob.
    Sometimes they don't even bother repairing the broken walls or gates.
    They just fight and then leave.
    I had to spend the next 15 mins repairing the walls/gates alone with my fellow scouts.
    No sweeps no repairs nothing.
    Not that I'm too upset since repairing gives rather decent WxP.

    This. We usually spend 10-15 mins to repair broken walls, resetting siege and sweeping the place (and flipping close camps if supp is needed). No comm wants to spend time with those, except maybe flipping camps. As a dedicated scout with scout mates, I also think that some of the things we do are really boring. But it is necessary and only takes 10 mins.

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    The commander that responded parked his zerg in there for 15+ minutes as we swept and actively gave directions to facilitate said sweeping. I understand that most tags don't do this, but that's not what happened here. This also has nothing to do with non-stealth classes stealing tower caps...

    The problem is specifically that the amount of effort needed to counter permastealth classes is way disproportional to the effort of using one and the tools we've been given to this end are tragically ineffective.

    While it's in the game, Anet keeps adding new (and ineffective) ways to deal with it as if they think this has made it into something engaging or reasonable. Thus, I'm not certain if they want it to exist and think there's currently enough counterplay or if they're trying to indirectly nerf it.

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    Does Anet want this to be a thing or not?

    They clearly never thought about it.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @enkidu.5937 said:

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    Does Anet want this to be a thing or not?

    They clearly never thought about it.

    WvW? 😏

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    The commander that responded parked his zerg in there for 15+ minutes as we swept and actively gave directions to facilitate said sweeping. I understand that most tags don't do this, but that's not what happened here. This also has nothing to do with non-stealth classes stealing tower caps...

    The problem is specifically that the amount of effort needed to counter permastealth classes is way disproportional to the effort of using one and the tools we've been given to this end are tragically ineffective.

    While it's in the game, Anet keeps adding new (and ineffective) ways to deal with it as if they think this has made it into something engaging or reasonable. Thus, I'm not certain if they want it to exist and think there's currently enough counterplay or if they're trying to indirectly nerf it.

    And they added it AFTER the painting, traps, marked etc.

    So... yeah., like mounts, it’s the direction Anet wants.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • to top it off they removed scrapper reveal. big lols eh?

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Second, the only places they can flip are recently captured towers/keeps.

    Not true and these are actually the hardest to hide in.

  • @Sviel.7493 said:
    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493
    I don't have any issue with an engineer hiding and soloing a tower lord. There's enough counterplay for that since they can't be stealthed forever without many tells.

    But I don't understand why you say it can only happen with paper. Palace was T3, in this case, and had only made it to T3 after hours and hours of fighting to keep supply lines open. And while it is technically fair, that's not really the issue. Bypassing a wall with a warclaw is technically fair because, theoretically, anyone can do it. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing to have in the game.

    @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Second, the only places they can flip are recently captured towers/keeps.

    Not true and these are actually the hardest to hide in.

    If you guys are talking about a large group of players that have fought their way in to the keep lord, having a mesmer port a group of people in isn't much different from having a group of people speed build catapults and charge forward again. At that point it is earned positioning, because they had to go through you and two walls to get there.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493
    It's different in that a group of people speed building catapults can be reacted to. There are all sorts of ways to fight against that. On the other hand, a port can happen even if you sweep for 20 minutes and it bypasses all walls and doesn't trigger any alarms to differentiate it from a tap. If your concept of 'earned positioning' was accurate, we wouldn't be allowed to rebuild walls in the first place.

  • should probably disable ports when stealthed.
    lol.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • kraai.7265kraai.7265 Member ✭✭✭

    so much talk about siege and protecting walls, they should remove siege and increase damage from players to doors, the "hide inside a keep to spam siege so you don't have to fight" mentality is killing this game, i play against blackgate every week and its the same old story, throw catas wait for them to get a large group, or watch them hide in there defending till wall is down and no more supps to repair, then whats next? they leave to "defend" something else... so boring.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm really doubting that your commander with a zerg spent 15 minutes sweeping any structure and still failed to clear it. I don't want to call you a liar but either you're a liar or that zerg is entirely useless.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Optimator.3589Optimator.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @enkidu.5937 said:

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    Does Anet want this to be a thing or not?

    They clearly never thought about it.

    Anet doesn't want or not want this to be a thing. They don't care. As long as PvE is bringing in the lion's share of revenue for them, they will continue with their neglect of WvW. I've seen the devs play a handful of times. They are completely clueless as to how anything is actually played in WvW. That's why the kitten-poor implementation of stealth in general and DEs in particular are what they are.

    REDUCE NA TO 3 TIERS

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    @kraai.7265
    While I recognize your complaint, that's not really relevant to what I'm talking about. We were fighting constantly. Sometimes it was versus other roamers, sometimes I was dancing in and out of several enemies while trying to damage their siege and stay alive. There were 1v1s, 3v3s, 10v10s and everything in between. The fighting started because of the siege and stopped only because of the abrupt cap.

    @kash.9213
    I don't blame you for not believing me. This commander is pretty unique--he's been on the server for years and understands a lot more than just fighting. He's on good terms with scouts and, whenever possible, helps to repair or sweep. Of course, it probably helped that with the constant attacks there was no chance of his group getting bored and wandering off. He also had a guild core full of folks who, when they're not raiding, would likely be roaming and sweeping for deadeyes themselves.

    Unfortunately, you can't fight what you can't see. As long as there's some corner that goes unnoticed for a few seconds, all effort is wasted.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    @kraai.7265
    While I recognize your complaint, that's not really relevant to what I'm talking about. We were fighting constantly. Sometimes it was versus other roamers, sometimes I was dancing in and out of several enemies while trying to damage their siege and stay alive. There were 1v1s, 3v3s, 10v10s and everything in between. The fighting started because of the siege and stopped only because of the abrupt cap.

    @kash.9213
    I don't blame you for not believing me. This commander is pretty unique--he's been on the server for years and understands a lot more than just fighting. He's on good terms with scouts and, whenever possible, helps to repair or sweep. Of course, it probably helped that with the constant attacks there was no chance of his group getting bored and wandering off. He also had a guild core full of folks who, when they're not raiding, would likely be roaming and sweeping for deadeyes themselves.

    Unfortunately, you can't fight what you can't see. As long as there's some corner that goes unnoticed for a few seconds, all effort is wasted.

    I guess Ospreys is a hard one to sweep but a spread out zerg Sniff really should have done it. I agree mostly because with the game mode not being very healthy that kind of thing can turn into the norm and you're right, it's not fun for any side and reduces fights. I'm hesitant to say what should be done about it because I think it would be different in a healthier game mode.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    @kash.9213
    Sniff doesn't see through stealth, I'm told. I don't personally have Warclaw unlocked, but the wiki backs this up. Thus, if the person doesn't drop stealth while the sweep is on, it does nothing. Even if they do get marked, it apparently only lasts for about a second and doesn't prevent stealthing...so all you learn is that there's a DE somewhere about, which you should have known already. By the time you call it out, they've moved on to who knows where.

  • Also, since when is mesmer a permastealth class?

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    For real ? You have stealth traps,use them with the 40 people trying to find one guy,im sure you can place enough where he will get revealed ! The concept of DE's evolve around being sneaky and stealthy and able to hide,besides the normal counters to them which being reveals we have 2 different types of traps to counter them aswell. If you are unable to get that one guy with your blob,he's just doing a good job,otherwise try harder.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    @kash.9213
    Sniff doesn't see through stealth, I'm told. I don't personally have Warclaw unlocked, but the wiki backs this up. Thus, if the person doesn't drop stealth while the sweep is on, it does nothing. Even if they do get marked, it apparently only lasts for about a second and doesn't prevent stealthing...so all you learn is that there's a DE somewhere about, which you should have known already. By the time you call it out, they've moved on to who knows where.

    Ya but it gives you the dot, so everyone knows they're there and roughly where at for circles and whatever else. I'm not against the devs doing some work on perma stealth in general, but not so much taking into account how effective it might be for that infiltration, since that's kind of asking to nerf something based on the game mode suffering or nerfing by tier.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    Let's not forget all the de-stealthing around towers and guards

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    @kash.9213
    That dot doesn't show up for your allies, just you. So if it happens to be nearby, you can demount and spam circles, but if it was close enough for that then you would have been able to see them.

    The solution could be as simple as marking enemies in a section of a structure after 2.5 minutes with no breach. It could even cost supply, or require the activation of a destructible structure (that respawns like a cannon) that can be disabled. If someone is really good at hiding, that can be a cool thing...so long as it there are still reasonable options for interaction. I would prefer a solution like that so as not to inadvertently kitten the classes in every other situation.

    @Caedmon.6798
    Stealth traps cost supply to put down. If you have the whole zerg use them, that's hundreds of supply down the drain after every breach. The traps also disappear if you leave the map. Also, Deadeyes can remove the Reveal status with ease, so you'd need to hit them with a trap roughly every 20 seconds. It is not hard at all for them to just stay invisible all day.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    @kash.9213
    That dot doesn't show up for your allies, just you. So if it happens to be nearby, you can demount and spam circles, but if it was close enough for that then you would have been able to see them.

    The solution could be as simple as marking enemies in a section of a structure after 2.5 minutes with no breach. It could even cost supply, or require the activation of a destructible structure (that respawns like a cannon) that can be disabled. If someone is really good at hiding, that can be a cool thing...so long as it there are still reasonable options for interaction. I would prefer a solution like that so as not to inadvertently kitten the classes in every other situation.

    @Caedmon.6798
    Stealth traps cost supply to put down. If you have the whole zerg use them, that's hundreds of supply down the drain after every breach. The traps also disappear if you leave the map. Also, Deadeyes can remove the Reveal status with ease, so you'd need to hit them with a trap roughly every 20 seconds. It is not hard at all for them to just stay invisible all day.

    And you have multiple people to place them around,and supplies aren't hard to come by,it only costs 5 supply. And no they cannot remove the mark effect being it from a tower or the two traps you have available,they have to wait that duration out and will be revealed in the meantime. It just seems you don't really have a clue do you.

    It's 30 seconds,btw.

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    @Caedmon.6798
    Well, you were right about two of those things.

    They cost 5 supply now (instead of 10) and apply a new version of marked. If enemies stealth for 4 seconds straight, they get revealed...which can then be removed easily by a Deadeye. That change happened last November, by which time I had already stopped playing.

    But burning 100+ supply on that when you have a wall that needs repairing is asking too much...and that's not even considering that we're making an entire zerg (of 20) spend a total of 150 Badges of Honor and 1 gold every time a wall falls just in case someone might be hiding. If that's what it takes to be considered effective then, as I keep saying, the effort is far out of reasonable proportions.

    For example, you seem like a zergling yourself--would you be willing to lay a trap every time you defended an objective? And then run for supply to finish repairing?

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah anet keeps saying alliances are coming but I wanna know what they plan to do about all these people complaining about the mechanics of every single class when these people aren't even gearing their characters. They need some kind of internal gear checking its gotten so bad and the worst part is for some odd reason they can be walking along and just double down dead and nothing has hit them. So one of them says it had to have been a thief permastealthing! Yes all 50 of you instantly all doubled down from one thief permastealthing it must be nerfed immediately. Although its probably some combination of terrain issues and the fact their stats are so low that it makes a stealthed mega super warclaw pounce on them without ever being seen. Although in queensdale they just had the annual ninja parade for the 465th year in a row they perma stealthed through to lions arch.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
    Also, since when is mesmer a permastealth class?

    Mesmer isn't, but thief is.

    I'm torn on this myself. On most objectives it's not a big issue (due to their smaller size) since if you do a short sweep, you can locate any thief and his fields while he is perma stealthing. If a commander/team doesn't sweep, their loss.

    On bigger objectives like SM, it is a different beast.

    Now is changing a mechanic and skill interaction justified due to 1 objective which might be affected unproportionally? That's probably a personal opinion for everyone.

  • Why do you think it's legit or justified that a single players mechanics counter is to bring 20-30 people? If that's the way the game should be designed I want my necro shroud to absorb 200.000 damage. You just have to bring a zerg to kill me. Good idea, right?

    Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
    Also, since when is mesmer a permastealth class?

    Mesmer isn't, but thief is.

    I'm torn on this myself. On most objectives it's not a big issue (due to their smaller size) since if you do a short sweep, you can locate any thief and his fields while he is perma stealthing. If a commander/team doesn't sweep, their loss.

    On bigger objectives like SM, it is a different beast.

    Now is changing a mechanic and skill interaction justified due to 1 objective which might be affected unproportionally? That's probably a personal opinion for everyone.

    I tend to agree with you, I am obviously biased as a DE main tho. I'm happy to see a solution that limits me hiding in keeps etc that doesn't just screw over thieves in general play, here's my stab at solving that;
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/87375/marked-objectives-and-thieves#latest

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • I know it can be annoying, however we have more things than ever to deal with it.

    First, the structure will often remain contested, outside of say SMC (always contested), its easy to tell whats going on if you are paying attention. Mounts have a marking ability, there are stealth traps, there are marking traps, which are great to put going into lords room or on lord. A small group going into lords will hit the trap and everyone on map will see, and the small group will take some time to cap.

    Normal sweeping is still more than possible as well, stealth only lasts so long and you can see effects from the classes, be is smoke fields, blasts etc etc they all also make noise if you are listening that can be heard from a good way off, so even if they are stealthing behind a corner or something, you can hear and know someone is there.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    Why do you think it's legit or justified that a single players mechanics counter is to bring 20-30 people? If that's the way the game should be designed I want my necro shroud to absorb 200.000 damage. You just have to bring a zerg to kill me. Good idea, right?

    Actually, that's a very good point. If this was possible with anything else but stealth and required a zerg and sizeable resource investment just to have a chance of stopping it, people would be up in arms. And, even then, at least you'd know for certain that folks were going to get ported in.

  • KeyOrion.9506KeyOrion.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    The commander that responded parked his zerg in there for 15+ minutes as we swept and actively gave directions to facilitate said sweeping. I understand that most tags don't do this, but that's not what happened here. This also has nothing to do with non-stealth classes stealing tower caps...

    The problem is specifically that the amount of effort needed to counter permastealth classes is way disproportional to the effort of using one and the tools we've been given to this end are tragically ineffective.

    While it's in the game, Anet keeps adding new (and ineffective) ways to deal with it as if they think this has made it into something engaging or reasonable. Thus, I'm not certain if they want it to exist and think there's currently enough counterplay or if they're trying to indirectly nerf it.

    Well...that was one of the problems I saw. You used the word "Park" As in you stood there. What I needed was six players to put Target Painter Traps at ramps and stairs. Because sooner or later he's going to head to a wall, from his position, in order to get his buddies in. It's at that moment when you have a very short period of time to deal with it. The most time I saw a zerg "Park" was 5 minutes. They mapped out or moved out. Three minutes later, the guy was porting in his buddies. And you only need a small group. "Parking" i'm hoping was a just a bad choice of words, because we needed to "seed" the tower and/or keep at strategic movement locations in order to force the suckers hand. He'd have to move no matter what. And he can't be in every spot that 6 to 8 players would put down Target Painters to know where they are all located. And once he appears, we'd have put pressure on him enough for him to keep moving around trying to find a new hiding spot, and he'd hit another Target Painter, and perhaps another, keeping him visible. This is the only way I know how to pressure one of these guys in order to finally land a meaningful blow and kill on him/her. Still...majority of time, I do see the zerg. And they DO "Park"...in one spot, don't use any target painters....and you really leave it to the Scouts to watch for the sucker. Although now the Scout is being HUNTED by the Deadeye, and I don't see why I should do a "Call out" while i'm being destroyed with nary a helping hand to deal with problem. You might say, i'd get a little miffed that more wasn't done, and may just say "Screw it. If they want to keep the location, they can hunt this guy themselves". I Scouted for three years, and I seen all sorts of responses from commanders. But truly, you want to keep a spot secured, you'll have to do more than just "Park" it. You'll have to do more than just letting one guy watch EVERY single inner and outer wall, while dealing with one or more enemy units inside a location after breach. You'l have to do more than just being a "Fight Club" operator, and that the rest of the WvW Jobs are too kitten boring for you.

  • Portal Bomb old tactics

  • @Sviel.7493 said:
    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493
    We had about 20 people searching for long enough that participation dropped a tier for an unknown number of deadeyes and we killed a couple.

    This .
    Participation Mechanics.
    Defending and sweeping - unless you have squad participation share - brings you absolutely NOTHING in WvW.
    Very poor game design on Anet's part.
    WvW should be about fighting, capping, attacking and defending. But defenders that are not in a squad are Heavily penatalized for doing so due to Anet being so freakingly scared for AFK'ers

    We all want Pips, so we sweep shortly, but as soon at that participation bar goes into the red, we MUST enter battle again to bring it back up...

    WvW could use a massive reward make-over.

  • That cap on air did not put swords up the Lord was down in about 25 seconds

  • If only there were a wide variety of skills, abilities, game effects, and tools that could help with this problem: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

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