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What type of elite spec do you want next?(Necromancer)


Lily.1935

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@Asum.4960 said:

@Asum.4960 said:While I really want a minion spec and still think back fondly about the GW1 days of running around with a 20-50 unit big minion army and constantly managing their health and resupplying bodies, I just don't think it's going to work well in GW2 and it's not going to fix the issues Necro has in this game.

Lich I feel like is kind of covered by Reaper. The tankyness by non scaling active defenses has been proven over and over again not to work in this game, especially with the constant powercreep invalidating non scaling defenses even more.I have a feeling Lich would just fall into that same trap.

Shaman+Plague Doctor is kind of what Scourge is, being both either a condition or Support spec, although aside from the Rez gimmick, being bad at both these days.

In GW2's PvP mobility and active defenses are king, and for PvE Necro is desperately missing a DPS spec that doesn't suffer from the eternal excuse of Necro can't have damage because it's "tanky", has support or can take Epi, keeping the profession forever between useless and niche, even though most other professions have just as good or even more impactful tools that should limit their personal contribution but don't (see Banners and such).To that end a shroudless Vampire or Wraith themed (considering life steal historically sucks in GW2) spec that focuses on mobility and active defenses as well as high burst damage seems like it would be the best option for Necro imo.

I both agree and disagree. The list wasn't Specs I personally would like, but specs in the general theme that others have requested frequently in the past 5 years. So I ran with that idea. Also, The reason I disagree that a Minion spec couldn't work in GW2 is because I designed one.

Check it out. I put a lot of effort into it, and although its not perfect in its design it does give a good general idea of what a minion spec could look like.

Shaman and Plague Doctor are ones I feel could have some unique space. Scourge is more in line with the GW1 protective spirits ritualist while a Shaman could be more in line with the Restoration Ritualist. They play very differently, although Shaman is low on my list since its not missing tech of the necromancer specifically. Plague doctor is one I've had some interesting ideas around. The return of the Disease condition was always enticing to me, but another idea I had was adding a new condition called Hex which would be influenced by your F1-5 keys and its effect on the foes afflicted with it would change based on which F key you activated at the time. Like a short burst of something happening, like spreading, ramping its damage or mimicking Barbs or Spiteful Spirit from GW1. It was an interesting idea, but never got around to toying with it much as I've had other projects in the works.

I do very much agree with the Lich spec. I don't see it as adding anything useful to the necromancer that shouldn't just be in a Death magic rework. I could build a spec for it no problem, but it would assume that death isn't going to get touched.

I didn't say Minion Master couldn't work in GW2, I said that I don't think it's going to work
well
or at least is probably not going to fix the existing issues Necro has, i.e. lack of mobility, lack of active defenses and lack of competitive dps spec. At least not in a compelling way.

Nothing is going to beat Mirage on condi bosses anyway and if a Necro is useful in those scenarios (see SH for Epi) Scourge as condi DPS does that fine.For PvP minion master is either going to be a cleave fest or a clutter nightmare worse than mesmers, while probably still lacking viability due to getting focused.For WvW again, either a cleave fest, or a lagg fest.

On top of all of that are the usual AI issues.

Thematically I really enjoy the idea and I would love to see a decent and interesting to play minion master be viable anywhere in the game (although thematically I personally prefer the traditional bone and flesh minions, rather than shades and spores etc), but tbh Necromancer as a profession has so many gameplay holes while being almost entirely carried by theme, that I don't think adding a thematically strong but mechanically limited spec to the class is the wisest next move (if there is a next move).

The MM I designed myself a few years ago (before Scourge) and what I had in mind was actually more of a support spec, focusing on healing and buffing minions and player allies alike, while having the advantage of some decent personal dps due to minions as well, making it a great offhealer.But we kind of got that gameplay (minus the theme of minions) already with Scourge, so I think it's time to patch some of the downsides of Necro, which really comes down to everything aside from boon hate.

I also wasn't critiquing the suggestions, be they your ideas or not, nor did I mean any disrespect. I was simply evaluating what I think the professions needs in terms of gemeplay imo, and what would fit that the most.

If it came down to me, I would like to see all of them in the game as I could design Necro specs all day.As of now, I'm just less interested in theme, which Necro has plenty, and more interested in gameplay, where Necro consistently falls short ever since launch.

You're looking at what has been done but not what could be done and using that to influence your call on what could be done which is a bad way to look at it. We didn't have moving aoe blast fields at the start of the game. We didn't have moving platforms or slippery platforms. What is and isn't possible is up to how much effort the dev's want to put into it. And in some cases they've put in a lot. And others they've been noticeably lazy.

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@Lily.1935 said:So Here I see a divide. We have players who are unfamiliar with the necromancer's history and sees them as a very tanky profession because that's all they know. And we have the Veteran players from GW1 who see the necromancer as a support class who should be fairly glassy. And these two philosophies are incompatible in GW2's Design. At least part of the minion supporters and the Vampire spec supporters have a common goal of a more supportive, glassy spec that can dish out damage, where as the Lich spec supporters want to double down on what's already there.

I actually don't remember GW1 necro as being a support but that may have just been my personal playstyle for it. I was a multi-classer in GW1 as well, so I used to play a N/Me Life Transfer necro in PvP, which was intended to spike down single targets, having a copy of the Elite skill Life Transfer via the Mesmer skill, Arcane Echo, in case the original hex was cleared or ran it's course before killing the target, and it had other hexes in its arsenal to punish the opponents trying to heal my spike target.

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@Yannir.4132 said:

@Lily.1935 said:So Here I see a divide. We have players who are unfamiliar with the necromancer's history and sees them as a very tanky profession because that's all they know. And we have the Veteran players from GW1 who see the necromancer as a support class who should be fairly glassy. And these two philosophies are incompatible in GW2's Design. At least part of the minion supporters and the Vampire spec supporters have a common goal of a more supportive, glassy spec that can dish out damage, where as the Lich spec supporters want to double down on what's already there.

I actually don't remember GW1 necro as being a support but that may have just been my personal playstyle for it. I was a multi-classer in GW1 as well, so I used to play a N/Me Life Transfer necro in PvP, which was intended to spike down single targets, having a copy of the Elite skill Life Transfer via the Mesmer skill, Arcane Echo, in case the original hex was cleared or ran it's course before killing the target, and it had other hexes in its arsenal to punish the opponents trying to heal my spike target.

The necromancer had unmatchable mana management which made him one of the best healer possible in GW1 with an N/Rt build. Blood magic was also quite reliable to support allies while Orders and Marks added damage and various effects to all allies weapon attacks. The different Wells were almost spamable for ton of support (If you think WvW is a mess of aoe, you've never played a well'o'mancer in GW1). And last but not least, the necromancer was the main and best source of mana regen in game allowing the big guns to unleash their damage without worrying for the cost.

The fact that a lot of the pure necromancer support used to have a cost in blood pushed the necromancer toward low health build which made it easier for them to outheal the blood cost. I don't believe I've ever seen a necromancer going for 600hp in GW1. More often than anything necromancers were going for 55hp and even lower by embracing the death penalty like it was a blessing.

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@Yannir.4132 said:

@Lily.1935 said:So Here I see a divide. We have players who are unfamiliar with the necromancer's history and sees them as a very tanky profession because that's all they know. And we have the Veteran players from GW1 who see the necromancer as a support class who should be fairly glassy. And these two philosophies are incompatible in GW2's Design. At least part of the minion supporters and the Vampire spec supporters have a common goal of a more supportive, glassy spec that can dish out damage, where as the Lich spec supporters want to double down on what's already there.

I actually don't remember GW1 necro as being a support but that may have just been my personal playstyle for it. I was a multi-classer in GW1 as well, so I used to play a N/Me Life Transfer necro in PvP, which was intended to spike down single targets, having a copy of the Elite skill Life Transfer via the Mesmer skill, Arcane Echo, in case the original hex was cleared or ran it's course before killing the target, and it had other hexes in its arsenal to punish the opponents trying to heal my spike target.

The necromancer would be classified as offensive support. They didn't provide much in the way of defense, but they did give quite a bit of utility when it comes to offensive potential from your party.

Orders are normally the first thing that come to people's mind, such as Order of Vampirism and order of pain, which unfortunately these were nerfed to not function with each other which was devastating to the play style. There were other methods of support they used such as afflictions on with a hex that would healed when striking a foe. The necromancer could also improve adrenaline gain for allies, although this was less frequently taken. Mark of Pain and Bards are two other support hexes which would modify the damage foes took by afflicted armor ignoring damage whenever a foe would be strike with physical damage. The Mark of Pain necromancer was a popular build in Fissure of Woe. Further support are for skills like Blood is power and blood ritual which would improve allies energy regeneration greatly. It was a common reason Monks took Necromancer as a secondary so they could gain access to blood ritual and aid their fellow monk since it couldn't target themselves. But some less common support also exists such as Tainted flesh which made an enchanted ally immune to the disease condition and caused their flesh to spread disease on foes attacking them. As well as the wells which could debilitate foes or aid allies. Well of Blood and well of power would provide health regen and power would provide energy regen. You also had foul feast which would transfer conditions from allies to yourself.

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