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Can we please talk about the "Marked" debuff?


Noodica.5428

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@Clownmug.8357 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:What if they looked into it already and decided more reveal was needed on top of what Marked does?

Wouldn't be anything new or surprising, would just be more from them killing the game mode for even more of the community.

I don't see the problem with catering to the majority of players. Can you explain?

That's not how game balance works.

Ok, explain how balance works for a casual theme park style MMO game then.

Balance is there to achieve equal viability and strenght between different builds in specific situations.

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@Doug.4930 said:

@"Turk.5460" said:Your reply was not related to what I said in literally any way. Did you mean to quote someone else?

No? You were implying that thieves don't need to avoid marked area's like the plague. Implying that a thief can win fights while marked correct? I was saying that against a competent player this simply not true. Against any skilled player the thief will lose while marked every time. Wasn't that what you were saying? Or is my 2am brain having a meltdown?

EDIT: I mean on stealth thief builds. On condi DD or S/D acro builds I'm sure marked matters very little.

Shadow's Rejuvenation and Shadow's Embrace are the only two traits that suffer from marked, due to having a 3s interval. Other than that, Thieves do not require to be in stealth more than 2s at a time every 5s in order to defeat an enemy. Any Thief playing without Shadow Arts in general should not be very much affected by the Mark in a 1v1. I'm sorry if you are unable to defeat competent opponents 1v1 while you are playing a Thief, and apparently even less so while you are marked, but I am, and I win far more 1v1s than I lose. Are all my roaming enemies in T1/2 prime time simply potatoes? No. I mainly play power DE with S/P offhand and no Shadow Arts. Once again I main and almost exclusively play Thief and I don't know where you're getting this "Thieves are weak 1v1" nonsense. We have many tools other than stealth at our disposal for mitigation and survival.

@XenesisII.1540 said:

@"Turk.5460" said:Infinite Horizon double staff is almost as "cheesy" as it gets. Perhaps not more than some other condi Mirage builds, but
certainly
more so than any other non-mesmer build. Infinite Horizon in general was the second most ridiculous thing that made (and makes) condi Mirages incredibly overtuned and brainless. Never understood why people complained about Elusive Mind over IH, when IH was (and still is) clearly the problem.

ShrugI've had to deal with so much cheese in 7 years on my power spec, I really don't care at his point how much I cheese the opponents back, cause they really don't care either, no point in that being a one way street. Condi mesmer ain't the only thing broken in this game, a lot of other stuff fly under the radar, but the combination of dealing with conditions and clones makes people cry to the heavens.

Also, they so broken, there's a lot of them in wvw these days huh... oh wait.

I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

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@Anput.4620 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:What if they looked into it already and decided more reveal was needed on top of what Marked does?

Wouldn't be anything new or surprising, would just be more from them killing the game mode for even more of the community.

I don't see the problem with catering to the majority of players. Can you explain?

That's not how game balance works.

Ok, explain how balance works for a casual theme park style MMO game then.

Balance is there to achieve equal viability and strenght between different builds in specific situations.

That sounds ideal, but will likely never happen for games like this. Devs don't want to lose the casual, gem buying players who won't bother to play anything other than the top tier builds for most situations.

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@XenesisII.1540 said:Everyone gets marked for the same durations.There's ways around most marked areas.Don't roam fight around a watch tower, there's plenty of other real estate on the map.Deadeyes still able to stealth for 95% of the time they're in a fight.There's mounts.

Stealth in this game is low tier to put it nicely, it should have been designed for engaging and disengaging from a fight, not spammable and for use for the entirety of a fight, or usable like cloak and dagger on a god kitten wall(yes I know that was nerfed 6 years ago). But anet put stealth into the game without much thought into it like thinking of counter plays, because they didn't give a kitten until it was abused on a raid boss. Over the years they've had to add more reveals to the game because there's no reliable counter tells, in Wow you can't walk in front of someone otherwise it gives you a shadow and sound when a stealth is nearby.

So nope, any nerf to stealth is a good nerf, and that's coming from a mesmer main.

The funny thing is, engaging and disengaging is literally all stealth is good for. In fact, thats when stealth is broken, when a permastealth deadeye oneshots you without you even knowing they were ever there, or a mesmer stealths up outside your vision range, blinks on you and oneshots you. Stealth used in-combat is actually terrible. It used to be used exclusively for stealth attacks, but those are bad now as well, so only Deadeye rifle uses stealth when fighting. Otherwise, youre just locking yourself out of attacks for a couple seconds, gaining no defenses, while the enemy continues to just kill you. What stealth needs is nerfs for out of combat scenarios (in particular Shatter Mes and Malicious Backstab DE), and buffs for in-combat scenarios, so that thieves signature combat gimmick isnt one they ignore almost entirely. Really, its telling that unless the stealth is combined with clones which provide that neccessary split second of confusion, stealth is just generally really really bad.

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@Turk.5460 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Your reply was not related to what I said in literally any way. Did you mean to quote someone else?

No? You were implying that thieves don't need to avoid marked area's like the plague. Implying that a thief can win fights while marked correct? I was saying that against a competent player this simply not true. Against any skilled player the thief will lose while marked every time. Wasn't that what you were saying? Or is my 2am brain having a meltdown?

EDIT: I mean on stealth thief builds. On condi DD or S/D acro builds I'm sure marked matters very little.

Shadow's Rejuvenation and Shadow's Embrace are the only two traits that suffer from marked, due to having a 3s interval. Other than that, Thieves
do not
require to be in stealth more than 2s at a time every 5s in order to defeat an enemy. Any Thief playing without Shadow Arts in general should not be very much affected by the Mark in a 1v1. I'm sorry if
you
are unable to defeat competent opponents 1v1 while you are playing a Thief, and apparently even less so while you are marked, but
I
am, and I win
far
more 1v1s than I lose. Are
all
my roaming enemies in T1/2 prime time simply potatoes? No. I mainly play power DE with S/P offhand
and no Shadow Arts.
Once again
I main and almost exclusively play Thief
and I don't know where you're getting this "Thieves are weak 1v1" nonsense. We have many tools other than stealth at our disposal for mitigation and survival.

@Turk.5460 said:Infinite Horizon double staff is almost as "cheesy" as it gets. Perhaps not more than some other condi Mirage builds, but
certainly
more so than any other non-mesmer build. Infinite Horizon in general was the second most ridiculous thing that made (and makes) condi Mirages incredibly overtuned and brainless. Never understood why people complained about Elusive Mind over IH, when IH was (and still is) clearly the problem.

ShrugI've had to deal with so much cheese in 7 years on my power spec, I really don't care at his point how much I cheese the opponents back, cause they really don't care either, no point in that being a one way street. Condi mesmer ain't the only thing broken in this game, a lot of other stuff fly under the radar, but the combination of dealing with conditions and clones makes people cry to the heavens.

Also, they so broken, there's a lot of them in wvw these days huh... oh wait.

I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

I mean, thieves cant beat enemies on their level, but yes, mark generally doesnt affect thief builds right now. Because stealth is bad. In part, due to the marked mechanic. Once upon a time, a very long time ago, going in stealth to try and heal up (After managing to lose the enemies tracking and surviving the first second of stealth) then strike was a valid tactic, and SA was actually playable. But with many nerfs to stealth and SA (in particular the most recent ones making SA comically bad), and the marked mechanic, you just dont really use stealth. And if youre using DE and winning 1v1s, I can tell you, your enemies are definitelly all potatoes. Losing to a spec that has only one skill that does any noticable amount of damage, which you have to be afk to get hit by is pretty bad. Thieves are weak in 1v1, thats just old news at this point. They can win against worse players and undergeared players, but even matchups against other 1v1 classes you simply lose 10/10 times.

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@Turk.5460 said:I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

No you don't understand because you don't know me, I roam small group and zerg, I play in late eu and na prime time and even into pst, I barely see mesmers on my side or the enemy, I fight way more thieves, warriors, engs, rangers, burn guards, tank eles, hell even see more revs and reapers roaming than mesmers these days. Chronos only exist in some remaining organized groups, and the only core mesmer I've seen in months is probably the one from FA. They ain't well represented, I'm sure many have already converted to those other well represented classes or just outright got sick of all the nerfs and left.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Your reply was not related to what I said in literally any way. Did you mean to quote someone else?

No? You were implying that thieves don't need to avoid marked area's like the plague. Implying that a thief can win fights while marked correct? I was saying that against a competent player this simply not true. Against any skilled player the thief will lose while marked every time. Wasn't that what you were saying? Or is my 2am brain having a meltdown?

EDIT: I mean on stealth thief builds. On condi DD or S/D acro builds I'm sure marked matters very little.

Shadow's Rejuvenation and Shadow's Embrace are the only two traits that suffer from marked, due to having a 3s interval. Other than that, Thieves
do not
require to be in stealth more than 2s at a time every 5s in order to defeat an enemy. Any Thief playing without Shadow Arts in general should not be very much affected by the Mark in a 1v1. I'm sorry if
you
are unable to defeat competent opponents 1v1 while you are playing a Thief, and apparently even less so while you are marked, but
I
am, and I win
far
more 1v1s than I lose. Are
all
my roaming enemies in T1/2 prime time simply potatoes? No. I mainly play power DE with S/P offhand
and no Shadow Arts.
Once again
I main and almost exclusively play Thief
and I don't know where you're getting this "Thieves are weak 1v1" nonsense. We have many tools other than stealth at our disposal for mitigation and survival.

@Turk.5460 said:Infinite Horizon double staff is almost as "cheesy" as it gets. Perhaps not more than some other condi Mirage builds, but
certainly
more so than any other non-mesmer build. Infinite Horizon in general was the second most ridiculous thing that made (and makes) condi Mirages incredibly overtuned and brainless. Never understood why people complained about Elusive Mind over IH, when IH was (and still is) clearly the problem.

ShrugI've had to deal with so much cheese in 7 years on my power spec, I really don't care at his point how much I cheese the opponents back, cause they really don't care either, no point in that being a one way street. Condi mesmer ain't the only thing broken in this game, a lot of other stuff fly under the radar, but the combination of dealing with conditions and clones makes people cry to the heavens.

Also, they so broken, there's a lot of them in wvw these days huh... oh wait.

I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

I mean, thieves cant beat enemies on their level, but yes, mark generally doesnt affect thief builds right now. Because stealth is bad. In part, due to the marked mechanic. Once upon a time, a very long time ago, going in stealth to try and heal up (After managing to lose the enemies tracking and surviving the first second of stealth) then strike was a valid tactic, and SA was actually playable. But with many nerfs to stealth and SA (in particular the most recent ones making SA comically bad), and the marked mechanic, you just dont really use stealth. And if youre using DE and winning 1v1s, I can tell you, your enemies are definitelly all potatoes. Losing to a spec that has only one skill that does any noticable amount of damage, which you have to be afk to get hit by is pretty bad. Thieves are weak in 1v1, thats just old news at this point. They can win against worse players and undergeared players, but even matchups against other 1v1 classes you simply lose 10/10 times.

It seems like you need a bit more practice on DE. I win against many of the most notable roaming/dueling guild tags. I'm not some god-tier player, either, so they're definitely not potatoes. Get out there and try something other than metabattle builds, you'll find DE more than a capable fight against any 1v1 provided you know how to pilot it, and know what your enemy has to offer.

@XenesisII.1540 said:

@Turk.5460 said:I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

No you don't understand because you don't know me, I roam small group and zerg, I play in late eu and na prime time and even into pst, I barely see mesmers on my side or the enemy, I fight way more thieves, warriors, engs, rangers, burn guards, tank eles, hell even see more revs and reapers roaming than mesmers these days. Chronos only exist in some remaining organized groups, and the only core mesmer I've seen in months is probably the one from FA. They ain't well represented, I'm sure many have already converted to those other well represented classes or just outright got sick of all the nerfs and left.

I play NA prime time almost every day, and I have seen no burn guardians and barely any tank eles. I see far more condi Mirages than Rev/Heralds, Reapers/Scourges, Guardians/DH, and Weavers. I actually encounter more condi mirages than other Thieves. But no, not more than Soulbeasts or Holosmiths. Now, is it possible that we're both right in what we encounter whilst we play? Perhaps...though I highly doubt you see burn guardians or any iteration of elementalist more than you see Mesmers.

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@Doug.4930 said:If a player is dying to a thief build that relies on stealth to both survive and do damage, then that player is very inexperienced. Against any competent player the thief loses every time. If you're finding success, then I congratulate you on fighting new players as 1v1's for a thief in the current climate can be quite challenging when they're not marked.

I may be inexperienced, but usually for me the hardest enemies to fight are condi screen clutter mirages and perma stealth dead eyes. But this doesn’t change the fact that stealth is bad for the game and needs to be toned down and as I said earlier, removing the ability to remove revealed needs to go.

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@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Doug.4930 said:If a player is dying to a thief build that relies on stealth to both survive and do damage, then that player is very inexperienced. Against any competent player the thief loses every time. If you're finding success, then I congratulate you on fighting new players as 1v1's for a thief in the current climate can be quite challenging when they're not marked.

I may be inexperienced, but usually for me the hardest enemies to fight are condi screen clutter mirages and perma stealth dead eyes. But this doesn’t change the fact that stealth is bad for the game and needs to be toned down and as I said earlier, removing the ability to remove revealed needs to go.

The context of my statement was the thief is marked during the fight. The thief loses everytime while fighting marked. Outside of marked the thief has a much better chance as I think thief is still pretty strong when played correctly.

@Turk.5460 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Your reply was not related to what I said in literally any way. Did you mean to quote someone else?

No? You were implying that thieves don't need to avoid marked area's like the plague. Implying that a thief can win fights while marked correct? I was saying that against a competent player this simply not true. Against any skilled player the thief will lose while marked every time. Wasn't that what you were saying? Or is my 2am brain having a meltdown?

EDIT: I mean on stealth thief builds. On condi DD or S/D acro builds I'm sure marked matters very little.

Shadow's Rejuvenation and Shadow's Embrace are the only two traits that suffer from marked, due to having a 3s interval.Any Thief playing without Shadow Arts in general should not be very much affected by the Mark in a 1v1

So in your opinion the fact that marked completely mitigates two select able traits from a trait line wouldn't make a difference in a fight? I mean seriously? Potentially from your view 66% of a single trait line can simply be rendered completely useless, but that won't make a difference in a fight? Seriously? Oh and also you forgot these traits that are also useless/greatly nerfed while marked. Concealing restoration, leeching venom's and merciful ambush.

I mean good for you, not all of us are Jason Bourne thieves who can win fights against holosmiths and mirages or boon beasts running only 2 trait lines. But I don't really believe that you truly think that SA thieves stand any sort of chance against competent players while marked.

Other than that, Thieves do not require to be in stealth more than 2s at a time every 5s in order to defeat an enemy. I'm sorry if you are unable to defeat competent opponents 1v1 while you are playing a Thief, and apparently even less so while you are marked, but I am, and I win far more 1v1s than I lose. Are all my roaming enemies in T1/2 prime time simply potatoes? No. I mainly play power DE with S/P offhand and no Shadow Arts. Once again I main and almost exclusively play Thief and I don't know where you're getting this "Thieves are weak 1v1" nonsense. We have many tools other than stealth at our disposal for mitigation and survival.

I never said thieves are weak 1v1 first of, simply that 1v1's as a thief can be challenging when not marked.

Let me now explain why any thief running main hand dagger should never win a fight while marked. Even without SA. Because the main killer isn't not being able to hide in stealth for more than 2 seconds. Its the 5 second reveal if you are unable to drop stealth voluntarily. If there was a button i could push that removed the stealth effect then it would be so much less oppressive. But a main hand dagger thief after gaining stealth has 2 seconds to land an attack. Now remember in order to do proper damage, the thief needs to land a back stab in the back. Two seconds is such little time to position this in a 1v1 that against a player with half a brain its basically impossible. if the player dodges the backstab/blocks/distortion etc, thats an entire second of the two seconds you have gone instantly. More often or not, a good player can avoid a stealth attack for 2 seconds. Because they know that the only window the thief has to attack is within that two second window. Which makes predicting the attack laughably easy. Once the attack is avoided. The thief is then forcibly revealed for 5 SECONDS. That's 5 seconds where the dagger thief has absolutely no access to its main damage dealing skill. 5 Seconds in which the opponent can go to town without fear of reprisal. If the thief lasts that long it restealths inorder to attempt to land damage again, and so the cycle repeats itself until the thief is dead.

Now there are thief builds that are less affected by marked. S/P DE is one of them. S/D acro is another as well as staff DD or condi DD.

Im sure against a fresh new player where the skill gap is abnormally large an SA dagger main hand thief could win. But like i said, you're average player will wipe the floor with the thief, no matter how good they are.

But I don't know, I'm unsure how a player who says they main thief could honestly say with a straight face that SA thieves are unaffected in a fight while marked when they are only able to use 2 of their 3 trait lines.

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@Doug.4930 said:The context of my statement was the thief is marked during the fight. The thief loses everytime while fighting marked. Outside of marked the thief has a much better chance as I think thief is still pretty strong when played correctly.

What you are saying is like saying a ranger has a better chance of winning by staying at range, so we should remove all gap closers so to not disadvantaged rangers and that they auto lose when in melee range...

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@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Doug.4930 said:The context of my statement was the thief is marked during the fight. The thief loses everytime while fighting marked. Outside of marked the thief has a much better chance as I think thief is still pretty strong when played correctly.

What you are saying is like saying a ranger has a better chance of winning by staying at range, so we should remove all gap closers so to not disadvantaged rangers and that they auto lose when in melee range...

Well.... no because that would be altering class balance. I'm not discussing class balance I'm discussing an external WvW mechanic.

If i were saying thief typically loses fights at range and therefore we should have more gap closes, then your point would be relevant.

Nice straw man argument.

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@Doug.4930 said:Well.... no because that would be altering class balance. I'm not discussing class balance I'm discussing an external WvW mechanic.

If i were saying thief typically loses fights at range and therefore we should have more gap closes, then your point would be relevant.

Nice straw man argument

Well yes it is about class balance, you are wanted to remove a wvw mechanic to benefit classes that rely on a high uptime of stealth.

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@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Well.... no because that would be altering class balance. I'm not discussing class balance I'm discussing an external WvW mechanic.

If i were saying thief typically loses fights at range and therefore we should have more gap closes, then your point would be relevant.

Nice straw man argument

Well yes it is about class balance, you are wanted to remove a wvw mechanic to benefit classes that rely on a high uptime of stealth.

Not the type of class balance that you tried bring up in your straw man argument, as I demonstrated how irrelevant that point was in my last reply. High up time? Did you read any of my posts? I'm not complaining marked reveals you every eight seconds or something. It reveals you after two. 90% of thief stealth skills last 2 seconds or more.

On the bright side half the debate is convincing people that marked cripples many builds, which at least you seem to be acutely aware off.

I don't know how many times i need to repeat this. If you want to nerf builds that have too much stealth then great. But marked is a stupid way to go about it. Because outside of marked these builds are still overpowered. We should be striving for game balance across the entire map. Not simply around some towers and sentries. Furthermore marked indiscriminately targets builds that are already in a very bad place, such as core thief D/D for instance.

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@Doug.4930 said:Not the type of class balance that you tried bring up in your straw man argument, as I demonstrated how irrelevant that point was in my last reply. High up time? Did you read any of my posts? I'm not complaining marked reveals you every eight seconds or something. It reveals you after two. 90% of thief stealth skills last 2 seconds or more.

On the bright side half the debate is convincing people that marked cripples many builds, which at least you seem to be acutely aware off.

I don't know how many times i need to repeat this. If you want to nerf builds that have too much stealth then great. But marked is a stupid way to go about it. Because outside of marked these builds are still overpowered. We should be striving for game balance across the entire map. Not simply around some towers and sentries. Furthermore marked indiscriminately targets builds that are already in a very bad place, such as core thief D/D for instance.

Balance is balance whether it’s class balance or a mechanic in place that effect something else to keep something else in balance. Yes it is a bad way to do it and imo, marked needs to go as well, but only after significant changes are made to stealth and the deadeye class to stop perma stealthing cheese.

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@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Not the type of class balance that you tried bring up in your straw man argument, as I demonstrated how irrelevant that point was in my last reply. High up time? Did you read any of my posts? I'm not complaining marked reveals you every eight seconds or something. It reveals you after two. 90% of thief stealth skills last 2 seconds or more.

On the bright side half the debate is convincing people that marked cripples many builds, which at least you seem to be acutely aware off.

I don't know how many times i need to repeat this. If you want to nerf builds that have too much stealth then great. But marked is a stupid way to go about it. Because outside of marked these builds are still overpowered. We should be striving for game balance across the entire map. Not simply around some towers and sentries. Furthermore marked indiscriminately targets builds that are already in a very bad place, such as core thief D/D for instance.

Balance is balance whether it’s class balance or a mechanic in place that effect something else to keep something else in balance. Yes it is a bad way to do it and imo, marked needs to go as well, but only after significant changes are made to stealth and the deadeye class to stop perma stealthing cheese.

Excellent then in the meantime we should add effects to marked to prevent stances lasting too long, Prevents Firebrands from having reflects heals and cleanses, Boon negation that prevents Holos and Soulbeasts from having boons that last longer than two seconds etc.

DE has too much stealth, stealth used to require risk like landing CnD, or it required using Cooldowns. DE does have wayyy too much stealth. But you're making it sound like DE is still in the state it was in when PoF first released. Its not. DE really isn't that bad next to a holo smith for instance. Even that horrible condi poison DE isn't really much of a threat if you know what you're doing. Its just annoying.

DE's are annoying as hell cause they pop up try and kill you then run away. Very annoying, but not any more overpowered than pretty much every roaming build on meta battle at the moment.

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@Doug.4930 said:Excellent then in the meantime we should add effects to marked to prevent stances lasting too long, Prevents Firebrands from having reflects heals and cleanses, Boon negation that prevents Holos and Soulbeasts from having boons that last longer than two seconds etc.

DE has too much stealth, stealth used to require risk like landing CnD, or it required using Cooldowns. DE does have wayyy too much stealth. But you're making it sound like DE is still in the state it was in when PoF first released. Its not. DE really isn't that bad next to a holo smith for instance. Even that horrible condi poison DE isn't really much of a threat if you know what you're doing. Its just annoying.

DE's are annoying as hell cause they pop up try and kill you then run away. Very annoying, but not any more overpowered than pretty much every roaming build on meta battle at the moment.

Im not saying deadeyes are overpowered, but stealth in its current form is.

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@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Excellent then in the meantime we should add effects to marked to prevent stances lasting too long, Prevents Firebrands from having reflects heals and cleanses, Boon negation that prevents Holos and Soulbeasts from having boons that last longer than two seconds etc.

DE has too much stealth, stealth used to require risk like landing CnD, or it required using Cooldowns. DE does have wayyy too much stealth. But you're making it sound like DE is still in the state it was in when PoF first released. Its not. DE really isn't that bad next to a holo smith for instance. Even that horrible condi poison DE isn't really much of a threat if you know what you're doing. Its just annoying.

DE's are annoying as hell cause they pop up try and kill you then run away. Very annoying, but not any more overpowered than pretty much every roaming build on meta battle at the moment.

Im not saying deadeyes are overpowered, but stealth in its current form is.

Fair enough, although I agree, I'd add that almost everything is overpowered. Nerfing stealth alone without addressing pretty much everything else would be an injustice.

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@Doug.4930 said:I never said thieves are weak 1v1 first of, simply that 1v1's as a thief can be challenging when not marked.

Sure looks like you did:

@Doug.4930 said:No? You were implying that thieves don't need to avoid marked area's like the plague. Implying that a thief can win fights while marked correct? I was saying that against a competent player this simply not true. Against any skilled player the thief will lose while marked every time.

Do all Thieves run SA in your mind? I'm confident that's actually the least used traitline.

Now there are thief builds that are less affected by marked. S/P DE is one of them. S/D acro is another as well as staff DD or condi DD.

So you're saying a majority of Thief builds are unaffected by marked. Congratulations, that's exactly what I said.

But I don't know, I'm unsure how a player who says they main thief could honestly say with a straight face that SA thieves are unaffected in a fight while marked when they are only able to use 2 of their 3 trait lines.

Can you point out where I said that? (you can't) Here's my quote directly from the top of this page:

@Turk.5460 said:Any Thief playing without Shadow Arts in general should not be very much affected by the Mark in a 1v1.

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@"Turk.5460" said:Sure looks like you did:

I said "1v1's for a thief in the current climate can be quite challenging". Not that they are weak.

Seems we both misread replies, no harm done.

So you're saying a majority of Thief builds are unaffected by marked. Congratulations, that's exactly what I said.

I listed 4 builds and that's a majority? I wouldn't say every single build that uses main hand dagger with power is the minority of builds. As i explained that any build running main hand dagger with power is severely gutted while marked SA or no SA.

Can you point out where I said that? (you can't) Here's my quote directly from the top of this page:

My error, I often post when its wayyy too late as i did this time. The rest of your post encouraged my error into making me think that you believe SA WASN'T rendered completely useless by marked.

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The only time I've thought it was totally stupid recently was when another server managed to take and fully upgrade our blue corner in EB, and were hovering between keep and spawn. Since marked was introduced we've been given stuff like mounts and 360 smoke screen, they help a lot combined with a little awareness of your surroundings.

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@"Caedmon.6798" said:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83174/change-how-marking-works#latest

I think my suggestion was solid,mark people on the map and remove the reveal aspect.Good for a zerg where the reveal doesnt matter in the first place since they either just AoE bomb or the thief doesnt feel like going 1v50 that day, absolutely terrible suggestion for the only area where the stealth might give a distinct advantage, ie 1v1 or smallscale. It would literally not do anything.

The entire point of revealed is to make it so that you can target the thief.

A better idea would be doing the complete opposite - reveal them, but dont show on the map.

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For as long as stealth grants full invisibility, marked should reveal, to speed things up after capturing a location to quickly get rid of sneaky players trying to get an easy capture after RI.

Not letting stealth stack would be a bad idea as it'll break other things in WvW and PvE, but if stealth effects ever get some sort of 'decay' into partial invisibility after 2-3s of full invisibility, then marked could stop giving revealed, and instead instantly decay stealth.

Decayed stealth would still prevent being targeted, and AI would still ignore it someone partially cloaked, but other players would be able to see a 'shimmer' and locate the cloaked enemies if they pay attention, allowing them to go and attack with non-targeted attacks like cleaves, AoEs and aimed projectiles.

Stealth needs a full rework anyways.

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