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For the Love of God, Delete Mesmer Mantras!


shadowpass.4236

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@op and all mesmers whiners :Basically what happen in EU :1) the mantra mesmer (if there is one because it's pretty rare.) will one shot someone.2) he will then be focused all the game by ennemy team (like an FA ele should be) and be a dead weight to his team.I dunno if NA ladder with 60% of mesmers didn't have good rev/thief/holo but I can ensure you that if this kind of class is in EU and see a mantra mesmer it's a 4v5 game, that's why we don't see mantra mesmers pass gold in EU.

@"bravan.3876" said:Coremesmer can pretty easy oneshot ppl with taking Chaosline in addition to Domination/Duelling. And after Chrono nerfs you find them a lot even in EU. Also the problem is, that Coremesmers are forced to use Massinvis (for the lack of other good elites) during Mirages mostly run Jaunt. And these core builds can stack stealth for a very long time , too long time, and they also can go back in stealth more often. In addition Chaos adds passive boonsustain very strong vs power builds.

There are reasons why most oneshot heroes played old chrono pre nerf with double Mantra carried by Lost Time giving double instant cast dmg now switch to Core and not to Mirage. Powercoremes and in particular Chaosline core is way easier to play and has more burst than Powermirage what is the strongest when played as utility based spec with clones on dodge and interrupt trait instead the dmg traits. Powermirage is a lot more reactive when played with these traits, also with Zeromis kind of spammy double signet build. Even Zeromis build needs to outplay ppl way more than a stealthspam oneshot or a double intant-dmg Mantra oneshot Chrono pre nerf. Both builds carry lower skilled player still want to play power and not condi for whatever reasons.The problem mostly isn't the amount of burst dmg itself, it is the combination of high dmg combined with braindead mechanics like high instant dmg on max range (double Mantra+Lost Time) or the abuse of stealth (Core chaosline). For most Powermesmer i met ingame it is simple as that: They play these carried by broken mechanics oneshot builds because they cannot outplay ppl on a glassy spec and for that run a nonreactive build to compensate that missing skill. Ofc not impressive and these meme oneshot builds are clearly not the only "viable", they are just easier than not-oneshot-powerbuilds. I mean i am hypocrite to judge because when i play Mesmer i play condi but tbh these kind of oneshot builds are not that far away from the noobcarry lvl of a Condimirage who only needs to dodge on a safe spot and let clones do all the work. Both are barley reactive and have easy to apply dmg, only the punishment for mistakes is higher on power oneshot builds (not rly when using chaosline though). But without Chaosline/ Lost Time (old Chrono), Mantra of Pain and Massinvis i barely see a problem.I'm really sorry but as many other posts of this thread are just "they are op" or "it's fine l2P", yours who again impose your view of what is skilled or not like usual make me react :

  • Again when I read your posts I'm convinced that the highest skilled build for you is the "I take only one weapon, no trait and no utility because I'm skilled.". And again I answer that something no efficient isn't skilled.
  • Chaosline is basically a sustain line and a meta build with no sustain line is bad (should it be mirage/chaos/inspiration). The kid build who take all damage trait with 0 overall reflexion isn't skill as like I said in our last discussion, skill start by build crafting.
  • Core mes has more burst than mirage, that's the point we can agree it's was always the case.
  • Powermirage allow evade during mistakes, core build not, while core build allow more stealth duration while mirage not so apart the gameplay difference, I find very extreme to impose his vision of things in a black and white way.
  • CI was nerfed, chrono is dead, and you still want mesmers to play 1 build that you find skilled and that everyone should play. Thanks you aren't game designer.
  • There can't be stealth abusing in a Holo passive reveal meta. Again NA probably haven't holo since they have 60% mesmers players...
  • The build you defend as skilled (the one with domi/duel/mirage, lock play which is what I play at the moment) base much of his pressure on GS ambush, so apart the near to be ineffective lock and usual bursts timing, there is nothing that high, the key of this build is more based on the right timing to use IoL.

And oneshot build are not even 'viable' because they are eaten alive by every other roaming and +1 class apart in NA in which it seems there isn't any good rev/thief to eat burst spec...

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@lightstalker.1498 said:

@Kamskill.9457 said:Is it a troll post ? ^^

they'd struggle to bring me below half health 3v1ing me on any non-braindead spec.

Just look at this. The build is only acceptable if he can 3 v 1 against them.

That's hilarious. It's probably the one counter to his insanely meta build. Meta builds are an issue, but this is why Anet needs to collect their own data to find out what they are.

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There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@"viquing.8254" said:There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

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@viquing.8254 said:

@viquing.8254 said:There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

Yeah my problem is that if anet dev read you and take your posts primary degree we will end with nothing than evade and maybe 1 weapon block.I don't see how you can reduce complain by coming during discussions saying : this is carry-gameplay, it should be hell gut. What I try to explain to you it's that all is not white and black with the carrying play opposed to the guy who is skilled enough to play with his feets.And stealth is active sustain (warrior signet, gard aegis proc aren't.).And stealth isn't more op than full health restore in few click or other class sustain.Now i'm all for PU to come back to 3 defensive boon while not upgrade stealth duration if you think it will resolves the problem.

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Never said stealth is passive sustain but it is unhealthy and easy to play WHEN (and only when) it can get abused as a PU Coremes or DE can abuse it.

But if you prefer i can just keep silent and Anet read op and his follower only, and their biased and extrem opinions doesn't get half as effective corrupted by other biased and extrem opinions from mesmer mains as from someone trying to find the truth in the middle. But that will not be my problem.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Kamskill.9457 said:Is it a troll post ? ^^

No. I'm legitimately sick of mantra players rolling up to me in stealth from across the map and insta gibbing me. It's kitten stupid that any random can roll their face over their keyboard and kill me when they'd struggle to bring me below half health 3v1ing me on any non-braindead spec.

Anyone who thinks 100-0ing someone from stealth is balanced needs to get help.
  • Deadeye oneshot builds need to get deleted
  • Soulbeast oneshot builds need to get deleted
  • Core guardian oneshot builds need to get deleted
  • FA ele oneshot builds need to get deleted
  • Gunflame/killshot warrior onshot builds need to get deleted

Rev is fine currently, so are necros and meme oneshot engis (cause meme oneshot engis can't actually oneshot you)

The builds that can oneshot you from stealth are the worst and need to get deleted first. Not to mention that EVERY single mesmer mantra is ridiculously overloaded on stupidly short cooldowns.

Warrior and core guards have no way to stealth on their own, just saying.

I do hate mesmer tho, and malicious backstab is kitten too

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@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. Not sure if he's the person I'm thinking of but I remember a ranger player saying look how broken mirage is by using 3 clones, IH, mirrored axes and spamming dodges on a golem showing 30+ stacks of torment. Don't get me wrong the torment output on axe was/is insane and I think torment should never have been as prevalent as it is now but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@viquing.8254 said:There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

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I once killed a mesmer and cj him, he then killed me and also cj. Conclusion, nerf mesmer.

Honestly though the only thing I hated about mesmer was the daze = stun trait because that sometimes stunned mid dodge, which made difficult to react to the rest of the combo in such a low time frame.

I am more worried about condi mirage because of both defensive weapon sets (mostly wvw though).

Thing is, if they are going to force mantra to respect los then they should also do the same to all skills that react instantly like that (port through walls) because I can target someone, face 180° away from them and behind a wall and still steal into them.

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@bravan.3876 said:Never said stealth is passive sustain but it is unhealthy and easy to play WHEN (and only when) it can get abused as a PU Coremes or DE can abuse it.

But if you prefer i can just keep silent and Anet read op and his follower only, and their biased and extrem opinions doesn't get half as effective corrupted by other biased and extrem opinions from mesmer mains as from someone trying to find the truth in the middle. But that will not be my problem.

Hmm who is the extremist between you and me ? :#Found me pretty on the middle side. :3

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.When you try to destroy gameplay with the argument of skill, yes you will always find me on the way.

I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.The things is that putting NA and EU class representation apart, when you choose to spec into stealth one burst build, it has many drawback :
  • No pressure during stealth.
  • No pressure during Bursts intervals.

Which is hudge when you are in teamfight where players can assists each other or when you can't 100/1 single player because they aren't full zerk. Ans mesmer is far to have the mobility of thief during stealth. Pass Blink there is nothing to go melee from 1200 range to burst.

Not even couting the meta class whose role is to eat builds like FA/Burst Mes and other similar builds that explain thoses builds aren't meta.

I maintain that :

And oneshot build are not even 'viable' because they are eaten alive by every other roaming and +1 class apart in NA in which it seems there isn't any good rev/thief to eat burst spec...

@op and all mesmers whiners :Basically what happen in EU :1) the mantra mesmer (if there is one because it's pretty rare.) will one shot someone.2) he will then be focused all the game by ennemy team (like an FA ele should be) and be a dead weight to his team.I dunno if NA ladder with 60% of mesmers didn't have good rev/thief/holo but I can ensure you that if this kind of class is in EU and see a mantra mesmer it's a 4v5 game, that's why we don't see mantra mesmers pass gold in EU.

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@Eddbopkins.2630 said:If your invis your damage should be HALFED. You already have the advantage of garenteed hit in stealth. So to balance that out all damage done from stealth should be HALFED allowing for counter play against the invisable un-noticable hits. ImoGain the ability for surprised 1st hit but do less damage? That makes sense to me from a balance stand point.

i totally agree. after invi for 1-2 sec your damage should be reduced .

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@viquing.8254 said:

The things is that putting NA and EU class representation apart, when you choose to spec into stealth one burst build, it has many drawback :

  • No pressure during stealth.
  • No pressure during Bursts intervals.

No that is exactly the point, a oneshot build that can stack stealth that long that even the best map awareness cannot coutner it has no drawback. A build that has such long stealth periods and restealth abilites that it can either knock you of orbit totally out of nowhere or/and bait out every defensive skill without any effort has no draw back. The only counter to that are equally brainless mechanics or builds i don't want to have in the game either.

I say it again: i do not talk about the Mantramesmers i only talk about stealth abusing oneshot core PU build with Massinvis.

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@RosySefein.8072 said:Okay, so I've been playing Mantra Power Shatter since before elite specs were even a thing. When mantras had 3 charges, when they gave +600 toughness on a charge.I played it with chrono meta, I still play it now on base PU Mesmer. It's probably the only mesmer playstyle I actually enjoy.

I think it's fair to say @shadowpass.4236 this is a learn to play issue for you. I probably took a phat dump on you in ranked this season which is why you're upset.I think you forget that mantra charging can be interrupted, they're a two pop utility and usually, a burst combo means we're exhausting a full arsenal of cooldowns for a CHANCE to pop a player to downstate. With all the passives in game like signet of stone, endure pain, elixer S, random dodges, heals, protection uptime, blocks, barriers, full counter and large HP pools necros have it's not exactly an S tier playstyle. The amount of times a full burst gets wasted on a RANDOM dodge bro, no joke...

1 shot builds can be 1 shot by "non1 shot build" classes. Condition damage, lockdown, there are so many ways to punish the playstyle.It just grinds my gears to see people complaining about mantra's, but it's not like it matters because Anet already has plans to nerf them with the unreleased balance consideration post.ON TOP OF THAT, What else do you want me to play fam? Condi's are boring, and Mesmer has literally no other build that's effective and fun to play. If it's the only build I enjoy playing that is remotely (emphasis on REMOTELY) viable, why ruin that? There is no other option, no alternate. Burst builds are fun, they're also killable.

At the end of the day it's a gimmick playstyle and build.

Also shout out to my boy Mur. Can't wait for my main account to get off a 6-month ban lol

Just because 1 shot builds arent meta and have hard counters doesnt mean its fun to fight. Its still a gimmick playstyle that has minimal counterplay other than "just dodge".

@Daishi.6027 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:one-shot from stealth because the mesmer stealthed halfway across the map and insta-killed me with ZERO tells or any chance to react.

Biggest bunch of BS and alone is proof of how lacking you are.

Outside of portal mesmer blinks once ever 30 seconds for 1200 range, and if mirage that's plus a couple jaunts and a couple leaps at the cost of endurance, and then MAYBE you get half way across the map, and that's more than enough for you to see them coming.

Most mesmers, particularly one shot builds carry around 5-6 seconds of steath. Two of which have massive tells, and one consisting of a signet which is not only a give away among clones, but lets you know that he has it. The only really sneaky one is Decoy which A. makes a clone, and B. has a 40 second cooldown.

The entire burst combo can be avoided by 1 dodge and has a 3/4 second windup, and unlike thief can't evade spam (because mesmer adheres to the same average number of defensive cooldowns, and flat out less than any medium class.)

You say "No tell", but that "no tell" is your own lack of awareness for the map or your opponent. No one's fault other than your own if you can't anticipate a combo in at most a relatively short 5-6 second window while knowing that they need to end a 3/4 cast at a specific distance if they want to one shot.

This is a super easy to play around window of stealth, and has more than enough leeway to punish whiffs.(imagine if thief played by this rule.)

Also one shot builds don't run chaos. You NEED MA in dom and and SC in dueling to one shot anyone who isn't an ele or thief who is typing.and by the by, if they have 2 mantras, they only have 3 seconds of stealth on demand.

You really dont need to take the statement "the mesmer stealthed halfway across the map" that literally. There are so many spots in maps where you can stealth out of los, and then be in a fight within 2-4 seconds. And yes, certain mesmer burst combos have no telegraph. The mirror blade mantra shatter combo is enough to nearly 1 shot a lot of builds, and it doesnt have any tell. Good mesmers attack opponents who arent aware of/expecting them. Good mesmers dont open with the hugely telegraphed phantasmal berserker. The 1 shot playstyle isnt overpowered, its just annoying as hell.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

@apharma.3741 said:Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@viquing.8254 said:There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

@apharma.3741 said:Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

@apharma.3741 said:Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

Well 5+ steath occur every 48 sec, 1 burst every 48 sec who hasn't 100% chances of down the target and who can do only that explain enough why it's not meta, despite vids who never highlight the fails.

So what are the solutions :

  • Remove MoP ? this will just make opponents survive 80% of times and will make this kind of build a +1 with very bad mobility compared to thieves/rev.
  • Remove Stealth ? this will just delete builds using GS because as explained before, GS need stealth to be viable.

BTW with next patch, faced LoS on mantra mean that as long as you are always on movement : you should see the GS2 because the mesmer will run through you or you will go behind the mesmer and split his burst.

Now I don't care because I never play double mantra mesmer because it never was viable pass gold but this post is clearly full of casuals duellists who didn't have a piece of what is pro/cons on a class, what point capture in 5v5 mode is and want to duel everything with everyclass and his mother.

Start by giving mesmer real teamfight utility and AOE damage then we can talk about gutting his single target options.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

@apharma.3741 said:Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

No that a hit and run build is rendered useless if it cannot either run (because it used all it's disengage for an engage) or hit because you LoS and kite if you don't know where it is is an argument for the build being less of a carry. People who have played these builds know where you stealth up, when you move and how you move. You know when you're going to be bursted or likely to be +1 because you have experience with the playstyle.

Keeping track of the stealth burst classes like thief and mesmer is what I've said 3 times now is the counter and if you don't know where it is you kite and LoS to prevent a 1 shot, wasting their stealth. Even if they re-stealth your team gets the better exchange because that's 1 less burst the mesmer can do. You can also keep the fighting on 2 nodes making the +1 predictable but that's a comp thing. Protection, demolishers and a decent health pool (which describes most of the classes you will +1) will drastically reduce the damage taken and make a 1 shot unlikely to happen.

The reality is that if the build was anywhere near as broken within the current state of the game you would see it more but you don't because it's effect on a game is far less than most other options.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@viquing.8254 said:There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

@apharma.3741 said:Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

No that a hit and run build is rendered useless if it cannot either run (because it used all it's disengage for an engage) or hit because you LoS and kite if you don't know where it is is an argument for the build being less of a carry. People who have played these builds know where you stealth up, when you move and how you move. You know when you're going to be bursted or likely to be +1 because you have experience with the playstyle.

Keeping track of the stealth burst classes like thief and mesmer is what I've said 3 times now is the counter and if you don't know where it is you kite and LoS to prevent a 1 shot, wasting their stealth. Even if they re-stealth your team gets the better exchange because that's 1 less burst the mesmer can do. You can also keep the fighting on 2 nodes making the +1 predictable but that's a comp thing. Protection, demolishers and a decent health pool (which describes most of the classes you will +1) will drastically reduce the damage taken and make a 1 shot unlikely to happen.

The reality is that if the build was anywhere near as broken within the current state of the game you would see it more but you don't because it's effect on a game is far less than most other options.

As said i never had a problem with that until Core PU became a thing now and i never complained about Mesmer using Torch or Decoy (Signet of Midnight) or even both of these without Chaosline. Map awareness is no counter vs such amount of stealth.That it is not very viable in particual for ATs with coordinated teams doesn't prove my points wrong. Some builds can be noobfriendly easy and broken and still be less useful for conquest because mostly all these builds are only good at is carrying the player without adding much to a teams benefit. Best example is the inspiration signet spam build played with axe and sword mainhand weapons from that NA Countless guy. Super useless build for conquest but can carry players who have problems to reactively dodge the right things so it can just spam invulns, dodges and shatters. No rly good dmg, no rly good pointhold sustain not even in a 1vs1, no good +1 ability, no support, can't win any duel fast enough to not get plused by opponents Thief or Rev before, except vs noobs or ppl with high risk high reward builds not smart enough to just ignore him in 1v1 situations, can't hold outnumbered fights, just has nothing needed in a conquest match. The impact on a match is not zero but pretty low compared to other builds. An assasine style roaming build like core PU is clearly more useful than that, at least in solo q with uncoordinated teams without communication, no matter that it is kind of slow compared to other roaming builds.I mean lets compare to a Dagger Mainhand DE Thief he can hit you with 18k+ Mal. Backstabs without any tell (no mark needed) and no one would argue that this is good balance. Is that overly used in conquest? Luckily not, still braindead and broken mechanic should get nerfed. Mirror Blade tell from melee out of stealth is way to short that you can wait for it when executed well, in particular with the stun on f3. Means to dodge that with a good chance you need to be able to predict when the mesmer will inc on you, you can do that easy when you at least know a Mesmer is near and the stealth duration doesn't last for days so you don't have to use 3+ defensive skills randomly until the Mesmer would drop out of stealth (also with such high stealth duration he can just walk to your Los or none teleportspot and start the combo right in your face still being in stealth, happend to me during a duel. Moving/kiting is the only thing can help a bit by making it harder for the Mesmer to get near to you and increasing the distance Mirrorblade has to travel to hit you, so you have more time to react to it). I don't mind Mesmers using stealth just the amount and the duration on Core PU is ridiculous. Stealthing out of LoS and out of earshot and coming out of nowhere is mostly a freekill and bad design and carries player not enough skill for reactive fights and to outplay ppl. The current PU core build has remarkable less counterplay than other Mesmer oneshotbuilds, when coming out of nowhere not even a single one.

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Then again start by giving mesmer AOE damage/effects and team utility then we can talk about gutting single target damage. Cause it's start to be little boring to see nerf after nerf gameplay lost with no counterpart/new gameplay.

PS: and the amount of stealth PU give like CI was never a problem since recently...I'm just worried about the size of the anti-mesmers mafia.

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They already nerfed power mesmer really badly, it's completely out of the meta, and is a meme build nowadays

  • daze into stun and stun duration increase was removed.
  • ci is disabled
  • mental anguish got gutted from 50/25 to 20/10 yikes
  • they got a 5% modifier vs lower targets xd master trait xD meanwhile other classes get gain x based on 10% of the ur power or 10% vs foes with X or when ur up above 90%.
  • mirage dodge duration got nerfed, jaunt got nerfed, elusive mind got nerfed
  • chrono is dead because shatter nerfs lmao
  • mirage power is ok but is dead once it's dodges are used

As for your complaints

  • Mantras have 3 second charge time, easy to interrupt or burst them during it.
  • Guardian mantras counts recharge twice as fast as mesmer ones and have more charges
  • mesmer can not duel, support or deal consistent pressure. It can only burst
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