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Why do the Permastealth Classes Have Ports?


Sviel.7493

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I'm sure everyone's experienced an engaging, hard-fought back-and-forth over a keep suddenly come to an end half an hour after inner was last breached due to some Deadeye or Mesmer hiding away in some corner. This is clearly unhealthy, but the tools we've been given to deal with it are woefully inadequate.

A handful of specs have hard counters, but you'd need a legion of them to actually tag the target...and if it's a Deadeye, you have to tag it multiple times in a short period. There are traps, but they're about as useful as a toothbrush made out of a cactus. So the reality is that dozens of defenders are left to scour a keep and try to lay eyes on the creature. They must carry this on ad infinitum or all of their effort will be nulled. This is not fun.


As you may have guessed, I just had an Osprey's Palace flip out of the blue to this. We had been defending it for over an hour, with constant attacks and plenty of roaming action around the surrounding camps. It was WvW at its best. They had breached Inner a couple of times early on and each time we swept every nook and cranny for DEs and Mesmers. We managed to kill a few, but one can never be sure that they're all dead. Right before the flip, two groups were hitting the same south wall with catapults in different locations and we had a pretty exciting multi-level fight where we were outnumbered, but still managed to kill the catas and a few of the enemies. They did serious damage that we couldn't easily repair as there were roaming groups choking our supply lines, so while we won the fight, they also had something to brag about. The constant action seemed to draw people out of the woodwork. We had more people on the BL than we've had since Reset, plenty of communication in map chat and allies willing and ready to respond to all manner of call-outs...but with the stolen cap, all of that momentum soured. I doubt it was much fun for the other server either, beyond a brief moment of schadenfreude.

So, while WvW clearly has myriad problems, I'm confused as to why this one is getting worse instead of better. We get enemies marked after a cap, new traps to mark enemies and the dubious Sniff skill on Warclaw as if that's supposed to turn this into 'engaging gameplay.' That's never going to work, especially against Deadeye...it's just adding layers of bandages onto a festering wound. Does Anet want this to be a thing or not?

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The answer is yes, they do want it to be a thing. Once, somebody posted up a video where an engineer hid on a flipped tower, then proceeded to solo the tower lord and flip it by themselves. Anet responded to this forum thread with a verbal thumbs up.

Think about it from the other side. First, the adrenaline is real. Flipping a place back with a portal requires a lot of cooperation, and it is high risk. I've seen plenty of attempted portal flips fail. Second, the only places they can flip are recently captured towers/keeps. Those places are paper, so they are easy to once again take back. Third, turnabout is fair play. You can do it, too.

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Because Commanders, defenders, and players in general have gotten LAZY in Sweeping a Keep, Tower, or Garrison after a breach at a wall or gate. When you have become lazy and refuse to do a sweep, because it's a "Time Waster"....why is it a time waster again? Ohhhh that's right. Because you want to have "FUN" and "GET BACK INTO THE FIGHT" as quickly as humanly possible. That means, they broke in, you wiped the enemy, and then you plugged the wall. Immediately you all leave, and then say to maybe ONE guy that may or may NOT stick around to "check for any straggling enemy inside still.... OHMYGOD you people have become truly and brutally lazy when it comes down to Sweeping for Mesmer's. Now it's even WORSE. Deadeyes, perpetual permastealth. And the great thing is...your little Trap to make them popup to be seen...lasts for a short span of time. If your not near the area with enough body's with a lot of DPS....the deadeye just recloaks...and your stuck for the next hour hunting his ass down. But how is this worse....that he can now port people inside.... So you got a permastealth porter, with a allied team, who refuses to lay down traps or even do a casual sweep.

On that note, yes, you do deserve to lose that location, because of pure laziness, because Sweeping is BORING. Just admit that.

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@"KeyOrion.9506" said:Because Commanders, defenders, and players in general have gotten LAZY in Sweeping a Keep, Tower, or Garrison after a breach at a wall or gate. When you have become lazy and refuse to do a sweep, because it's a "Time Waster"....why is it a time waster again? Ohhhh that's right. Because you want to have "FUN" and "GET BACK INTO THE FIGHT" as quickly as humanly possible. That means, they broke in, you wiped the enemy, and then you plugged the wall. Immediately you all leave, and then say to maybe ONE guy that may or may NOT stick around to "check for any straggling enemy inside still.... OHMYGOD you people have become truly and brutally lazy when it comes down to Sweeping for Mesmer's. Now it's even WORSE. Deadeyes, perpetual permastealth. And the great thing is...your little Trap to make them popup to be seen...lasts for a short span of time. If your not near the area with enough body's with a lot of DPS....the deadeye just recloaks...and your stuck for the next hour hunting his kitten down. But how is this worse....that he can now port people inside.... So you got a permastealth porter, with a allied team, who refuses to lay down traps or even do a casual sweep.

On that note, yes, you do deserve to lose that location, because of pure laziness, because Sweeping is BORING. Just admit that.

This is true.As an off-hour scout, I call out when keeps are attacked and usually our commanders react bringing their big zergs to defend and chase off the enemy.After the enemy is beaten back, the commander leaves the map with his blob.Sometimes they don't even bother repairing the broken walls or gates.They just fight and then leave.I had to spend the next 15 mins repairing the walls/gates alone with my fellow scouts.No sweeps no repairs nothing.Not that I'm too upset since repairing gives rather decent WxP.

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In year one, we were having Tactical arguments about using supplies within a keep vs. running supplies from a camp. I timed myself on a camp run for repairs on multiple walls that were damaged on multiple sides. Took me 4 hours. That's pulling supplies strictly from camps. I started using supplies in a keep, and I was getting called a Troll. Tactically I needed the walls repaired as quickly as possible, or it may appear to enemy forces that we had neither the resources or body's in order to fix things up. It makes it look like we're bleeding morally, and bodily. That and I knew if I didn't repair fast enough...chances are the enemy, if they came back, would be able to break in even quicker than before.

Still. Off the topic.

It's up to the Commander to lead a sweep, or hammer it into his players that follow him to commit to a sweep. Just a half dozen players laying down Traps near most common movement areas of ramps/stairs/bridges/walkways. It helps pinpoint problems that stay inside an area that has been breached. Of course...that only works if there's a team to standby and wait if something DOES show up in the breached area. Worst case scenario I ever saw. We had outer breach. We then had inner breach. Team came, wiped everything in sight. Or so we thought. Six minutes after the assault, we had scouts on north, south, and west of hills. But we were being lit up. On a hunch, I asked when was the last time we were breached. Six minutes they responded. So I went to lords room. There in lords room was a single Firebrand soloing the lord. Lord was down to 33%. The Firebrand was just pounding him without a care in the world, and taking NO fricken DAMAGE. I called out, the scouts had to move to lords to deal with it.

Then the commander started to bitch. "Who didn't catch that! Who let that guy in there! Whose responsible."

My response, "You are. You had inner and outer breach, and you refused to stay with your zerg to sweep for enemy stragglers." We didn't get along very well after that.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493I don't have any issue with an engineer hiding and soloing a tower lord. There's enough counterplay for that since they can't be stealthed forever without many tells.

But I don't understand why you say it can only happen with paper. Palace was T3, in this case, and had only made it to T3 after hours and hours of fighting to keep supply lines open. And while it is technically fair, that's not really the issue. Bypassing a wall with a warclaw is technically fair because, theoretically, anyone can do it. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing to have in the game.

@KeyOrion.9506I don't know who hurt you, but I guess you missed the part where I said we swept the place. We had about 20 people searching for long enough that participation dropped a tier for an unknown number of deadeyes and we killed a couple. Apparently, we missed one. If you consider that lazy, well...

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I'm a roamer. I spend my play time capping objectives and killing anything that comes for it until a large enough group shows up that I can't handle it. If I can sneak into a tower and cap it, I will, because this is no different than a havok group waiting for an enemy to open the wall and stealing the cap. It's fair game. Anything I do that causes a disproportionately large number of players to have to deal with me instead of with the tag is a win. So I'd say it's working as intended, honestly.

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@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@"KeyOrion.9506" said:Because Commanders, defenders, and players in general have gotten LAZY in Sweeping a Keep, Tower, or Garrison after a breach at a wall or gate. When you have become lazy and refuse to do a sweep, because it's a "Time Waster"....why is it a time waster again? Ohhhh that's right. Because you want to have "FUN" and "GET BACK INTO THE FIGHT" as quickly as humanly possible. That means, they broke in, you wiped the enemy, and then you plugged the wall. Immediately you all leave, and then say to maybe ONE guy that may or may NOT stick around to "check for any straggling enemy inside still.... OHMYGOD you people have become truly and brutally lazy when it comes down to Sweeping for Mesmer's. Now it's even WORSE. Deadeyes, perpetual permastealth. And the great thing is...your little Trap to make them popup to be seen...lasts for a short span of time. If your not near the area with enough body's with a lot of DPS....the deadeye just recloaks...and your stuck for the next hour hunting his kitten down. But how is this worse....that he can now port people inside.... So you got a permastealth porter, with a allied team, who refuses to lay down traps or even do a casual sweep.

On that note, yes, you do deserve to lose that location, because of pure laziness, because Sweeping is BORING. Just admit that.

This is true.As an off-hour scout, I call out when keeps are attacked and usually our commanders react bringing their big zergs to defend and chase off the enemy.After the enemy is beaten back, the commander leaves the map with his blob.Sometimes they don't even bother repairing the broken walls or gates.They just fight and then leave.I had to spend the next 15 mins repairing the walls/gates alone with my fellow scouts.No sweeps no repairs nothing.Not that I'm too upset since repairing gives rather decent WxP.

This. We usually spend 10-15 mins to repair broken walls, resetting siege and sweeping the place (and flipping close camps if supp is needed). No comm wants to spend time with those, except maybe flipping camps. As a dedicated scout with scout mates, I also think that some of the things we do are really boring. But it is necessary and only takes 10 mins.

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The commander that responded parked his zerg in there for 15+ minutes as we swept and actively gave directions to facilitate said sweeping. I understand that most tags don't do this, but that's not what happened here. This also has nothing to do with non-stealth classes stealing tower caps...

The problem is specifically that the amount of effort needed to counter permastealth classes is way disproportional to the effort of using one and the tools we've been given to this end are tragically ineffective.

While it's in the game, Anet keeps adding new (and ineffective) ways to deal with it as if they think this has made it into something engaging or reasonable. Thus, I'm not certain if they want it to exist and think there's currently enough counterplay or if they're trying to indirectly nerf it.

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@Sviel.7493 said:The commander that responded parked his zerg in there for 15+ minutes as we swept and actively gave directions to facilitate said sweeping. I understand that most tags don't do this, but that's not what happened here. This also has nothing to do with non-stealth classes stealing tower caps...

The problem is specifically that the amount of effort needed to counter permastealth classes is way disproportional to the effort of using one and the tools we've been given to this end are tragically ineffective.

While it's in the game, Anet keeps adding new (and ineffective) ways to deal with it as if they think this has made it into something engaging or reasonable. Thus, I'm not certain if they want it to exist and think there's currently enough counterplay or if they're trying to indirectly nerf it.

And they added it AFTER the painting, traps, marked etc.

So... yeah., like mounts, it’s the direction Anet wants.

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@Sviel.7493 said:@Blood Red Arachnid.2493I don't have any issue with an engineer hiding and soloing a tower lord. There's enough counterplay for that since they can't be stealthed forever without many tells.

But I don't understand why you say it can only happen with paper. Palace was T3, in this case, and had only made it to T3 after hours and hours of fighting to keep supply lines open. And while it is technically fair, that's not really the issue. Bypassing a wall with a warclaw is technically fair because, theoretically, anyone can do it. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing to have in the game.

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Second, the only places they can flip are recently captured towers/keeps.

Not true and these are actually the hardest to hide in.

If you guys are talking about a large group of players that have fought their way in to the keep lord, having a mesmer port a group of people in isn't much different from having a group of people speed build catapults and charge forward again. At that point it is earned positioning, because they had to go through you and two walls to get there.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493It's different in that a group of people speed building catapults can be reacted to. There are all sorts of ways to fight against that. On the other hand, a port can happen even if you sweep for 20 minutes and it bypasses all walls and doesn't trigger any alarms to differentiate it from a tap. If your concept of 'earned positioning' was accurate, we wouldn't be allowed to rebuild walls in the first place.

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so much talk about siege and protecting walls, they should remove siege and increase damage from players to doors, the "hide inside a keep to spam siege so you don't have to fight" mentality is killing this game, i play against blackgate every week and its the same old story, throw catas wait for them to get a large group, or watch them hide in there defending till wall is down and no more supps to repair, then whats next? they leave to "defend" something else... so boring.

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@enkidu.5937 said:

@Sviel.7493 said:Does Anet want this to be a thing or not?They clearly never thought about it.

Anet doesn't want or not want this to be a thing. They don't care. As long as PvE is bringing in the lion's share of revenue for them, they will continue with their neglect of WvW. I've seen the devs play a handful of times. They are completely clueless as to how anything is actually played in WvW. That's why the piss-poor implementation of stealth in general and DEs in particular are what they are.

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@kraai.7265While I recognize your complaint, that's not really relevant to what I'm talking about. We were fighting constantly. Sometimes it was versus other roamers, sometimes I was dancing in and out of several enemies while trying to damage their siege and stay alive. There were 1v1s, 3v3s, 10v10s and everything in between. The fighting started because of the siege and stopped only because of the abrupt cap.

@kash.9213I don't blame you for not believing me. This commander is pretty unique--he's been on the server for years and understands a lot more than just fighting. He's on good terms with scouts and, whenever possible, helps to repair or sweep. Of course, it probably helped that with the constant attacks there was no chance of his group getting bored and wandering off. He also had a guild core full of folks who, when they're not raiding, would likely be roaming and sweeping for deadeyes themselves.

Unfortunately, you can't fight what you can't see. As long as there's some corner that goes unnoticed for a few seconds, all effort is wasted.

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@Sviel.7493 said:@kraai.7265While I recognize your complaint, that's not really relevant to what I'm talking about. We were fighting constantly. Sometimes it was versus other roamers, sometimes I was dancing in and out of several enemies while trying to damage their siege and stay alive. There were 1v1s, 3v3s, 10v10s and everything in between. The fighting started because of the siege and stopped only because of the abrupt cap.

@kash.9213I don't blame you for not believing me. This commander is pretty unique--he's been on the server for years and understands a lot more than just fighting. He's on good terms with scouts and, whenever possible, helps to repair or sweep. Of course, it probably helped that with the constant attacks there was no chance of his group getting bored and wandering off. He also had a guild core full of folks who, when they're not raiding, would likely be roaming and sweeping for deadeyes themselves.

Unfortunately, you can't fight what you can't see. As long as there's some corner that goes unnoticed for a few seconds, all effort is wasted.

I guess Ospreys is a hard one to sweep but a spread out zerg Sniff really should have done it. I agree mostly because with the game mode not being very healthy that kind of thing can turn into the norm and you're right, it's not fun for any side and reduces fights. I'm hesitant to say what should be done about it because I think it would be different in a healthier game mode.

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@kash.9213Sniff doesn't see through stealth, I'm told. I don't personally have Warclaw unlocked, but the wiki backs this up. Thus, if the person doesn't drop stealth while the sweep is on, it does nothing. Even if they do get marked, it apparently only lasts for about a second and doesn't prevent stealthing...so all you learn is that there's a DE somewhere about, which you should have known already. By the time you call it out, they've moved on to who knows where.

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