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What is your opinion about Jormag's gender?


Terter.4125

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@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Ashen.2907" said:Weird, my post got deleted without notification. I dont know what was wrong with saying that I think that the gender of a storm or a mountain or a jungle are irrelevant.

Yet you voted "male". ;)

Anyway, we know now, so...

I generally vote if I am going to comment in a poll thread and the voice delivery reminded me of Tom Hiddleston somehow.

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Yep. Ze is neither "male" nor Female.

Anyone every wonder what gender Smoug was? I didn't. If I remember correctly, Tolkien never got into dragon breeding at all. I think that was wise.

Imagine you wake up strapped to a board. You can't even move. You see an Axe whistling down toward your face. Does it matter if the person wielding it is male or female? Or is the rest of the story too immediate for that processing? Just saying. Why is anyone surprised that the internet is on fire with concern about Jormag's nuts. Dose Ze have them? Does Ze not? Does Ze still have them but act like they're already gone? Does Ze mind if you accidentally misgender zem?

Like... A triggered raging snowflake dragon seems dangerous.

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@Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Anyone every wonder what gender Smoug was? I didn't. If I remember correctly, Tolkien never got into dragon breeding at all. I think that was wise.

No one had a chance to wonder - Smaug is consistently referred to using male pronouns, not just in the dialogue, but in the rest of the text as well.

True that. And the story reads the same if you swap em. No Smaug love life. No Smaug eggs. No Smaug opinions on gender politics. Smaug is just a horrible force to be overcome. Like, don't personify the villain... We, the audience don't like it much. If you make me sympathize with the monster before you kill it at the end, it ends up a very different movie.

(BTW, I don't care what anyone's opinions are. I respect that everyone can have them, even if I don't agree... Who knows, I could be wrong and not know it.)

So what's my point? Tolkien is a better writer than the A-net team. Like... Pretty sure even they know that.

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Jormag is a dragon, and dragons have no culture or societal gender role as far as we know and certainly no biological or genetic data that we have access to. I really don't see how they can even be male or female. I don't see it as nonbinary either because as far as I understand it dragons don't have a gender or sex at all so they can't have a gender identity either.

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Anyone every wonder what gender Smoug was? I didn't. If I remember correctly, Tolkien never got into dragon breeding at all. I think that was wise.

No one had a chance to wonder - Smaug is consistently referred to using male pronouns, not just in the dialogue, but in the rest of the text as well.

True that. And the story reads the same if you swap em. No Smaug love life. No Smaug eggs. No Smaug opinions on gender politics. Smaug is just a horrible force to be overcome. Like, don't personify the villain... We, the audience don't like it much. If you make me sympathize with the monster before you kill it at the end, it ends up a very different movie.

Interesting, I think Smaug has more personality than any of the dwarves, elves or humans in The Hobbit, and I sympathise with him more than I do with any of them! And I think personifying villains - and especially making sure they have coherent motives rather than that they're just evil for plot reasons - is a good thing when it's done well. I try not to think too much about the Hobbit movies though...

I agree that you could change Smaug's gender without changing the story. In fact, the same is true of any character in The Hobbit. On the other hand, Jormag's followers care deeply about gender politics and have very strong views on the matter - so Jormag's gender (if the idea of it having one even makes sense, which I'm not convinced that it does) could well be relevant to the story.

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@Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Anyone every wonder what gender Smoug was? I didn't. If I remember correctly, Tolkien never got into dragon breeding at all. I think that was wise.

No one had a chance to wonder - Smaug is consistently referred to using male pronouns, not just in the dialogue, but in the rest of the text as well.

True that. And the story reads the same if you swap em. No Smaug love life. No Smaug eggs. No Smaug opinions on gender politics. Smaug is just a horrible force to be overcome. Like, don't personify the villain... We, the audience don't like it much. If you make me sympathize with the monster before you kill it at the end, it ends up a very different movie.

Interesting, I think Smaug has more personality than any of the dwarves, elves or humans in The Hobbit, and I sympathise with him more than I do with any of them! And I think personifying villains - and especially making sure they have coherent motives rather than that they're just evil for plot reasons - is a good thing when it's done well. I try not to think too much about the Hobbit movies though...

I agree that you could change Smaug's gender without changing the story. In fact, the same is true of any character in The Hobbit. On the other hand, Jormag's followers care deeply about gender politics and have very strong views on the matter - so Jormag's gender (if the idea of it having one even makes sense, which I'm not convinced that it does) could well be relevant to the story.

I can dig all that.

But, doesn't it seem amazingly politically correctly convenient that the villains who literally embody the patriarchy, are worshipping a trans dragon? (I'm well aware non-binary in this case isn't trans. The language is intentional so it's easy to see how both sides see it from afar.)

It just has a feel that says. "if you have the same political bent as us, then you too can laugh as the oppressive patriarchy too!"

Like... If this was flipped, and the Daughters of Svanir hate all male characters and belittle them. Treat them like red-headed-step-children. Then it comes out the giant Dragon they worship isn't female at all.

Just saying, nobody is going to tell that second story. And it's because of the political climate.

Playing a story to the political in-crowd is cheap low hanging fruit. You know what it feels like to leave a movie and feel like.... "did the giant decepticon's balls have to clang together? This movie would have been better without that." and it's not because there were giant balls. It's because you knew they were pandering to who they think you are.

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