A dragon for each spec

[aymnad.9023]

Not sure if this should be in specs or lore, I think it can be in both.I think instead of worshiping human gods(I am a charr main, I do not like them :tongue: ) we can have a more global system.To solve the problem with the flow magic maybe some Tyrians become more godlike and have the power of a realm but I think/hope that every specs will worship a dragon. At some point in the story we could see the different races around Aurene. Some specs already have that included in their talents or builds. Dragons are part of the nature and some associations are easy to make.We also learned some new possibilities in https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/september-04-2019/

Mordremoth : nature = rangerZhaitan : death = necroPrimordius : earth and fire = elemAurene : light = guardian (sorry for those dragonhunters like Braham who suddenly have to worship one but I think most of them like Aurene :tongue: )Glint: mist = revenantKralk : fury = warrior. I did not know that until the magazine said so.Jormag : persuasion = mesmersDeep See : Maybe thieves ? This one is hidden and mysterious.

Sorry for Engineers, right now I do not know what to pick for you.

[Randulf.7614]

Why would they worship beings who would destroy them? And why worship three which are now dead?

I don't understand the "why" on this one.

Although I'm sure Engineers will just build their own if you are looking to fill that gap ;)

[aymnad.9023]

Nothing tells us there are no more eggs/scion, or that any champion cannot rise to a higher rank. Why would kralk be the only one with offsprings? Sure nothing points out in this direction but Aurene’s egg also came out of nowhere and an elder dragon will most likely keep them hidden. If you take a child raised like Aurene, right now nothing is pointing in the direction of mass destruction and she already created a cult.Why do the sons of Svanir worship a dragon who killed a lot of norns? Why do some sylvari agree to join the nightmare courts or mordremoth and not others? They are strong but also represent something that some beings can relate to. (also they are just trying to live like any creature even if “they do not fear death” or if this causes destruction)

[Randulf.7614]

None join mordy willingly - mordy forced them to join him.

Plus zhaitan, mordy and Kralkatorrik are dead so no reason for a prof to worship them.

Jormag is a little more complex due to the norns belief system in spirits, but a lot of it is also down to Jormags influence.

Why would professions choose to take any of the existing or dead elder dragons as a patron? Given what we know, it makes no sense.

If you take the examples u use, why would eles not worship Jormag (ice), or Kralkatorrik (air) or the dsd (water)? Why would rangers not worship primordus (nature) or even berserkers who have an affinity with fire.

[Teratus.2859]

Dragons represent a dominion over a certain spectrum of magic but that's all they have in common with any class profession.They're not gods either.

All we do know is that they are part of the world in the sense that they act out a cycle of hording magic, sleeping and seeping it back into the world.This Cycle as far as we can speculate is natural, however we don't know for a fact if it actually is.It's just as possible that the Elder Dragons we know are successors to a previous generation of benevolent Elder Dragons whom they killed and stole their power and position.We know that Kralkatorrik does/did have a mother so it's a fair assumption to say he wasn't always an Elder Dragon and might never had supposed to become one either.It's suggested that even before the fall of Zhaitan and Mordremoth that Kralkatorrik has been in conflict with his magic, causing his endless hunger and need for destruction, which only got worse as he claimed other spectrums.If he is a "natural" force of nature then nature screwed up creating him so flawed by his own power, so it's fair to speculate that his power was never intended to be his and it was something he claimed or stole from another being, perhaps his own mother.

I think all/most of the destructive Elder Dragons we know today have similar backstories involving a lust for power and eventually overthrowing another being to obtain it and thus being corrupted by it and driven into this relentless hunger for more.

I would personally like to explore the origins of the Elder Dragons in a future GW3 game perhaps, a prequel set tens of thousands of years before the original Guildwars, long before the Gods and humans came, long before even the ancient forgotten came to Tyria.It would be interesting to explore the ancient cultures of the Dwarves, Mursaat, Jotun, Seers and Giganticus Lupius as well as other ancient races/cultures that have been lost to time.

[aymnad.9023]

@"Randulf.7614" said:None join mordy willingly - mordy forced them to join him.Mordrem are directly under mordy control, sylvari are not until they join him. I have no doubt that he can force some sylvari because having a voice in your head is close to torture. Canach, Caithe, Laranthir and other said that you can hear him and you can resist.Jormag is a little more complex due to the norns belief system in spirits, but a lot of it is also down to Jormags influence.That is true. But a regular norn will not interact with Jormag directly. Instead he will talk to the sons of svanir. So unless talking to a son a svanir directly links you to Jormag, I do not think he influences them at the start. There is an event where someone wants to join the sons of svanir. It is only after that a ritual starts.

Plus zhaitan, mordy and Kralkatorrik are dead so no reason for a prof to worship them.Why would professions choose to take any of the existing or dead elder dragons as a patron? Given what we know, it makes no sense.You decided to skip the scion or champion possibility on purpose.

If you take the examples u use, why would eles not worship Jormag (ice), or Kralkatorrik (air) or the dsd (water)? Why would rangers not worship primordus (nature) or even berserkers who have an affinity with fire.I agree that Ele could also worship jormag or dsd. When did I say they could not? But since all are, like the gods, using a specific "plane" and that all can fit a profession I made this separation. Kralk was never mentioned to have anything connected to air even if brandstorm exists and Primordius definitely does not fit the ranger theme.

[aymnad.9023]

They're not gods either.

All we do know is that they are part of the world in the sense that they act out a cycle of hording magic, sleeping and seeping it back into the world.This Cycle as far as we can speculate is natural, however we don't know for a fact if it actually is.It's just as possible that the Elder Dragons we know are successors to a previous generation of benevolent Elder Dragons whom they killed and stole their power and position.We know that Kralkatorrik does/did have a mother so it's a fair assumption to say he wasn't always an Elder Dragon and might never had supposed to become one either.It's suggested that even before the fall of Zhaitan and Mordremoth that Kralkatorrik has been in conflict with his magic, causing his endless hunger and need for destruction, which only got worse as he claimed other spectrums.If he is a "natural" force of nature then nature screwed up creating him so flawed by his own power, so it's fair to speculate that his power was never intended to be his and it was something he claimed or stole from another being, perhaps his own mother.

I think all/most of the destructive Elder Dragons we know today have similar backstories involving a lust for power and eventually overthrowing another being to obtain it and thus being corrupted by it and driven into this relentless hunger for more.

I agree with you. But like gods teached humans, and Brills revenants, maybe we can learn from them? But why do you think flaws are not part of nature? He is labeled as fury and destruction is also part of nature.I would personally like to explore the origins of the Elder Dragons in a future GW3 game perhaps, a prequel set tens of thousands of years before the original Guildwars, long before the Gods and humans came, long before even the ancient forgotten came to Tyria.It would be interesting to explore the ancient cultures of the Dwarves, Mursaat, Jotun, Seers and Giganticus Lupius as well as other ancient races/cultures that have been lost to time.While I agree that living it will feel too different to be explored in gw2, maybe we can have some now without waiting a new game. Pls?

[Randulf.7614]

@aymnad.9023 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:None join mordy willingly - mordy forced them to join him.Mordrem are directly under mordy control, sylvari are not until they join him. I have no doubt that he can force some sylvari because having a voice in your head is close to torture. Canach, Caithe, Laranthir and other said that you can hear him and you can resist.Jormag is a little more complex due to the norns belief system in spirits, but a lot of it is also down to Jormags influence.That is true. But a regular norn will not interact with Jormag directly. Instead he will talk to the sons of svanir. So unless talking to a son a svanir directly links you to Jormag, I do not think he influences them at the start. There is an event where someone wants to join the sons of svanir. It is only after that a ritual starts.

Plus zhaitan, mordy and Kralkatorrik are dead so no reason for a prof to worship them.Why would professions choose to take any of the existing or dead elder dragons as a patron? Given what we know, it makes no sense.You decided to skip the scion or champion possibility on purpose.

If you take the examples u use, why would eles not worship Jormag (ice), or Kralkatorrik (air) or the dsd (water)? Why would rangers not worship primordus (nature) or even berserkers who have an affinity with fire.I agree that Ele could also worship jormag or dsd. When did I say they could not? But since all are, like the gods, using a specific "plane" and that all can fit a profession I made this separation. Kralk was never mentioned to have anything connected to air even if brandstorm exists and Primordius definitely does not fit the ranger theme.

I skipped the scion and champion because you addressed the 3 aforementioned dragons directly in your OP. Aurene has already replaced Kralk and possibly the other two as well, which fully removes one if not three from the situation.

Sylvari also don't join Mordy willingly. It's a fight against his will which all but the strongest are unable to resist

Basically, none of theory fits or makes any real sense or has any real reason for it to happen given what we know

[aymnad.9023]

@"Randulf.7614" said:I skipped the scion and champion because you addressed the 3 aforementioned dragons directly. Aurene has already replaced Kralk and possibly the other two as well, which fully removes one if not three from the situation.I hope the story will not go this way. It seems kind of easy to say we have a young dragon to do the job of 3.

Sylvari also don't join Mordy willingly. It's a fight against his will which all but the strongest are unable to resistBasically, none of theory fits or makes any real sense or has any real reason for it to happen given what we knowI have been wandering if some joined him because he was their "father", something giving them a goal like the dark/wyld hunt but I could not find any evidence of that. (do we have sylvari who joined the mordrem and came back to the pact?)

[Randulf.7614]

@aymnad.9023 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:I skipped the scion and champion because you addressed the 3 aforementioned dragons directly. Aurene has already replaced Kralk and possibly the other two as well, which fully removes one if not three from the situation.I hope the story will not go this way. It seems kind of easy to say we have a young dragon to do the job of 3.

Sylvari also don't join Mordy willingly. It's a fight against his will which all but the strongest are unable to resistBasically, none of theory fits or makes any real sense or has any real reason for it to happen given what we knowI have been wandering if some joined him because he was their "father", something giving them a goal like the dark/wyld hunt but I could not find any evidence of that. (do we have sylvari who joined the mordrem and came back to the pact?)

We have Sylvari who have turned back from Mordrem to Sylvari now Mordremoth's "Call" has gone (or reduced to a mere echo). One example that springs to mind is the one sitting on the big rock during the Festival of the Four Winds in Labyrinthe Cliffs.

It is reasonable to to conclude that some rejoined the Pact

[aymnad.9023]

@"Randulf.7614" said:We have Sylvari who have turned back from Mordrem to Sylvari now Mordremoth's "Call" has gone (or reduced to a mere echo). One example that springs to mind is the one sitting on the big rock during the Festival of the Four Winds in Labyrinthe Cliffs.

It is reasonable to to conclude that some rejoined the Pact

Ah, I completely forgot about him. He did not say much.

[Eme.2018]

@aymnad.9023 said:Brill Glint : mist = revenant

Why would you write it that way? Are you deliberately trying to confuse people that care to read your post? I don't get it.

[aymnad.9023]

@Eme.2018 said:

@aymnad.9023 said:

Brill

Glint : mist = revenant

Why would you write it that way? Are you deliberately trying to confuse people that care to read your post? I don't get it.Oups you are right. The explanation is : this is the name in french :)

[Bast.7253]

Well clearly since Aurene is the elder dragon of light, Holosmiths fall into that. Explains why they're god tier. They've all been enhanced by Aurene!

[Bast.7253]

Also, I would say Mesmers could potentially be Deep Sea Dragon more than Jormag. I mean none of this really fits, but....

Doesn't Zhaitan use illusions during one of the personal story instances? Maybe not. Not him directly at least, but I'd say at the very least Zhaitan would be more fitting for Mesmers/Thieves/Necros.

Eles tend to throw this whole idea off with the attunements to many different elements and not a lot of representation in game to base characteristics off of. Do we even have an ele lore character in Guild Wars 2? Was Zolja?

We have Taimi, engineer. Braham, guardian. Rox, ranger. Marjory, Necromancer. Jenna, Alise, Kas, mesmers. Logan, warrior or guardian? Can't remember.Canach, thief or engineer? Caithe, definitely thief. Rhytlock, revenant, but was a warrior wasn't he?

Faren, has he ever actually done anything? No clue on this one.

I guess the Olmakhaan are some form of elementalists aren't they? Or are they rangers?

Traeherne was a necro wasn't he?

I really can't recall any elementalists at the moment. I wonder what this new norn character will be in the coming saga. Looked like she was wearing heavy armor so probably a warrior or guardian, and that's probably more fitting for norn.

[Randulf.7614]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:Also, I would say Mesmers could potentially be Deep Sea Dragon more than Jormag. I mean none of this really fits, but....

Doesn't Zhaitan use illusions during one of the personal story instances? Maybe not. Not him directly at least, but I'd say at the very least Zhaitan would be more fitting for Mesmers/Thieves/Necros.

Eles tend to throw this whole idea off with the attunements to many different elements and not a lot of representation in game to base characteristics off of. Do we even have an ele lore character in Guild Wars 2? Was Zolja?

We have Taimi, engineer. Braham, guardian. Rox, ranger. Marjory, Necromancer. Jenna, Alise, Kas, mesmers. Logan, warrior or guardian? Can't remember.Canach, thief or engineer? Caithe, definitely thief. Rhytlock, revenant, but was a warrior wasn't he?

Faren, has he ever actually done anything? No clue on this one.

I guess the Olmakhaan are some form of elementalists aren't they? Or are they rangers?

Traeherne was a necro wasn't he?

I really can't recall any elementalists at the moment. I wonder what this new norn character will be in the coming saga. Looked like she was wearing heavy armor so probably a warrior or guardian, and that's probably more fitting for norn.

Zojja I believe was an ele yes.Logan is a GuardianRytlock was originally a warrior, yesTrahearne was a necro, yes

Faren transcends all specs

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

The OP basically reads "instead of worshiping non-interference-policy gods which are intricately tied to professions in human culture, let's instead tie all races' beliefs and professions to Elder Dragons that want to corrupt and kill their would-be worshipers, despite the fact the Elder Dragons do not fit into profession lore or magic at all."

Which is just silly to me.

Better to just have each culture have a different take on the profession and have their own history as to how they either came about to it, or discovered it in parallel to other species and cultures. Which what we have already is halfway in that direction.

And about Aurene, or the notion of finding other scions to replace the Elder Dragons - they may change how their line's magic is viewed, but they do not suddenly get linked to new magic. Aurene is the same magic as Kralkatorrik's, she just got a new title because she's good or some silliness like that. Similar to how Abaddon was "god of secrets" and Kormir is "goddess of truth" - they're both in the knowledge domain, and that's the more accurate title for them and their domain, but due to views of the gods and their rise or fall, they get different titles. Tyrians are weird af like that (ArenaNet is weird af like that).

So Aurene isn't suddenly showcasing Guardian magic instead of crystal and "fury" magic (still seems weird secondary domain...). And I'm not so sure we can link warriors to "fury" so well either, since we don't really know what "Fury" is - the new ones really feel more like personality traits than magical domains unlike Shadow and Mind...

Also? Glint isn't an Elder Dragon. And she's dead. And she didn't develop revenant magic, merely taught it to Rytlock.

[aymnad.9023]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The OP basically reads "instead of worshiping non-interference-policy gods which are intricately tied to professions in human culture, let's instead tie all races' beliefs and professions to Elder Dragons that want to corrupt and kill their would-be worshipers, despite the fact the Elder Dragons do not fit into profession lore or magic at all."

Which is just silly to me.That is what you all seem to agree on. But I still stand by the first part "To solve the problem with the flow magic maybe some Tyrians become more godlike and have the power of a domain".

Better to just have each culture have a different take on the profession and have their own history as to how they either came about to it, or discovered it in parallel to other species and cultures. Which what we have already is halfway in that direction.If by culture you mean charr/norn/human/asura/sylvari why have a culture locked into a profession? Why does it make more sense?

And about Aurene, or the notion of finding other scions to replace the Elder Dragons - they may change how their line's magic is viewed, but they do not suddenly get linked to new magic. Aurene is the same magic as Kralkatorrik's, she just got a new title because she's good or some silliness like that. Similar to how Abaddon was "god of secrets" and Kormir is "goddess of truth" - they're both in the knowledge domain, and that's the more accurate title for them and their domain, but due to views of the gods and their rise or fall, they get different titles. Tyrians are weird af like that (ArenaNet is weird af like that).No she is not. You are only looking at "she displays similar magic as her grandfather".Kralk :"The magics do not torment you. They belong within you.".She can take all types of magic. Again I have to refer to the link at the top "the Elder Dragon of Light / The Prismatic Elder Dragon".

So Aurene isn't suddenly showcasing Guardian magic instead of crystal and "fury" magic (still seems weird secondary domain...).You are definitely missing the point here. I said Light and not Guardian magic. Guardian theme is really close to it. What I said is every profession as something close to an elder dragon domain, not a dragon is going to look like a class.

And I'm not so sure we can link warriors to "fury" so well either, since we don't really know what "Fury" is - the new ones really feel more like personality traits than magical domains unlike Shadow and Mind…Could be. But even if this is just a personality trait it fits more into warrior than any other class.

Also? Glint isn't an Elder Dragon. And she's dead. And she didn't develop revenant magic, merely taught it to Rytlock.Yes she did. Rytlock himself said that. "Balthazar wasn't the only one I ran into during my time in the Mists. I also met Glint. She taught me the ways of the revenant."

[aymnad.9023]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:Also, I would say Mesmers could potentially be Deep Sea Dragon more than Jormag. I mean none of this really fits, but....True. As long as we do not know how this one work nobody can tell.

Doesn't Zhaitan use illusions during one of the personal story instances? Maybe not. Not him directly at least, but I'd say at the very least Zhaitan would be more fitting for Mesmers/Thieves/Necros.I think it was his minions. They are all specialised and have all specs. Can't remember which story it was in sorry. I found this dialogue "Zhaitan is deploying mesmers against us"

Eles tend to throw this whole idea off with the attunements to many different elements and not a lot of representation in game to base characteristics off of.Ele has too many options if we look at all the attunements. This class breaks all rules anyway X). I chose what I consider the closest option. (also they are the best profession if we look at the fire/earth theme)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"aymnad.9023" said:That is what you all seem to agree on. But I still stand by the first part "To solve the problem with the flow magic maybe some Tyrians become more godlike and have the power of a domain".

If Tyrians try to take in magic, this is what happens to them.

They go insane.

@"aymnad.9023" said:No she is not. You are only looking at "she displays similar magic as her grandfather".Kralk :"The magics do not torment you. They belong within you.".She can take all types of magic. Again I have to refer to the link at the top "the Elder Dragon of Light / The Prismatic Elder Dragon".

Can, not has. Key difference.

We don't really know the context of the "of Light" or "Prismatic" bit. But it actually originates from a design choice to obscure Aurene's Elder Dragon form at the end of S4 so that they didn't have to finalize the appearance then and there.

But chances are it's such so to indicate that she can consume all magic. But the thing is that "all magic" is not Guardians.

You are definitely missing the point here. I said Light and not Guardian magic. Guardian theme is really close to it. What I said is every profession as something close to an elder dragon domain, not a dragon is going to look like a class.

You said, and I quote:

Aurene : light = guardian (sorry for those dragonhunters like Braham who suddenly have to worship one but I think most of them like Aurene :tongue: )

You linked Aurene's "Light" (which is either just a reinterpretation of Crystal, or is all magical domains in one) to Guardians and thus, like the other cases, to their magic.

@"aymnad.9023" said:Yes she did. Rytlock himself said that. "Balthazar wasn't the only one I ran into during my time in the Mists. I also met Glint. She taught me the ways of the revenant."

Yes, Glint taught the ways of the revenant. Nothing there says she created the revenant profession, just that she taught Rytlock how to be a revenant. Which is what I said.

[aymnad.9023]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"aymnad.9023" said:That is what you all seem to agree on. But I still stand by the first part "To solve the problem with the flow magic maybe some Tyrians become more godlike and have the power of a domain".

If Tyrians try to take in magic,

this is what happens to them.

They go insane.Good point. Even the PC got affected. But we know some creatures that are fine around them (chaks, dragon minions), we have improved/modified beings (druids in draconis mons) that seems to be able to deal with it to a certain extend. Maybe 1/100 000 people are stronger or we will find a way to improve our characters.

@"aymnad.9023" said:

Can

, not

has

. Key difference.We don't really know the context of the "of Light" or "Prismatic" bit. But it actually originates from a design choice to obscure Aurene's Elder Dragon form at the end of S4 so that they didn't have to finalize the appearance then and there.But chances are it's such so to indicate that she can consume all magic. But the thing is that "all magic" is

not Guardians.

You linked Aurene's "Light" (which is either just a reinterpretation of Crystal, or is all magical domains in one) to Guardians and thus, like the other cases, to their magic.Once again you are interpreting incorrectly. I never said that Aurene was becoming a guardian. I said that there are similarities between the domain and the theme of the class. Why the association of all in one does not create something different? Isn’t it how color works?

Yes, Glint

taught

the ways of the revenant. Nothing there says she created the revenant profession, just that she

taught Rytlock how to be a revenant.

Which is what I said.So unless one day we get a name or another source (seems very unlikely to me) she is at the origin of the revenants style in Tyria.