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Marked, objectives, and thieves


Jugglemonkey.8741

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So people are annoyed about thieves hiding in structures. Thieves are annoyed about being randomly marked by sentries and towers in half the map. The solution doesn't currently seem to be pleasing anyone.

So here's a suggestion. Take away tower sentry field upgrade, and replace it with a tactivator activated upgrade that gives marked in the area for 5 mins on a 10 min cooldown (or whatever) like when a keep is just capped. Give this upgrade to keeps also, and make it one of the early upgrades for both towers and keeps.

With this change, unmanned towers become less obnoxious to fight around for stealth classes, but players can now selectively use marked tactic to flush out players hiding when needed without needing to repeatedly nerf said classes or introduce more stupid mechanics. Making it a T1 upgrade means the hiding players have a short window to do their thing, so it's not a guaranteed win, but you're not gonna be hunting them for the next three hours because they'll be forced to leave when the tactivator is used. It also promotes active scouting, as you don't just get a map marker on the enemy zerg for having an upgraded tower, while sentries still retain that functionality since that's the entire point of them being there.

Discuss.

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That would be a step in the right direction. Having it slotted in a keep would mean it can be activated to sweep after a zerg gets wiped past the inner wall but leaves a DE behind.

+1

How far would the radius be when the tactivator is pulled? Like will it end 5 meters outside the outer wall?

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If people are so worried that they can't get a thief out after a breach, just give them a tactic in the t1/t2 tactics column that can only be deployed once an hour, which applies marked in pulses every 4s for duration of 30-60s. That is more than ample time to catch a thief. If they can't even catch one with that, it is already pebkac, just like the many tools and ways we already have to deal with thieves. There should already be no excuses.

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@Doug.4930 said:That would be a step in the right direction. Having it slotted in a keep would mean it can be activated to sweep after a zerg gets wiped past the inner wall but leaves a DE behind.

+1

How far would the radius be when the tactivator is pulled? Like will it end 5 meters outside the outer wall?

I was thinking basically anything inside the outer walls, much like how it currently works when you cap a keep. That makes it effective when used, and giving it a cooldown makes it not spammable. I don't want to suggest more changes that don't actually fix the problem haha.

@DemonSeed.3528 said:If people are so worried that they can't get a thief out after a breach, just give them a tactic in the t1/t2 tactics column that can only be deployed once an hour, which applies marked in pulses every 4s for duration of 30-60s. That is more than ample time to catch a thief. If they can't even catch one with that, it is already pebkac, just like the many tools and ways we already have to deal with thieves. There should already be no excuses.

So basically what I said in the OP? :P 30-60 seconds duration would allow me (deadeye) to place a portal when it's pulled, jump out the tower, then port back in after the effect ends, making the tactic pretty much useless. 5 mins forces the hiding players to leave or bring in help right away, and giving the thing a cooldown (I agree 10 mins might be too short, 30-60 mins might be better for balance) and making it an upgrade means they still have opportunities to port people in. There would then be counterplay, which is healthy. I do agree that there are plenty of tools already available, but as a deadeye main I can tell you that a good number of them are kinda pointless, and stuff like marked traps etc wouldn't be needed and could be removed to improve my quality of life as a thief, as long as something like I suggested actually addresses the issue properly.

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When I approach a Sentry I get Marked, which means I'm visible on the mini map. I take this in to consideration any time I decide to capture a Sentry because I know it means there's a risk involved and there's high potential for people to be heading my way. I also know when I fully capture the node Marked will expire, therefore doing so is obviously my priority.

I also don't fight around towers, especially ones with Watch Tower, because again I know I'll be visible on the mini map. I also know fighting around towers in general is a bad idea for more than a few reasons; it's too easy for my opponent(s) to retreat inside, they could get reinforcements, they could use siege, NPC's could add unnecessary pressure.

Thieves have extremely high mobility and more control over where and when a fight happens than any other profession. You can't run away from a Thief that's not finished with you, but a Thief that's prepared can choose where the fight starts, ends and where it moves.

Anyone that doesn't heavily rely on Stealth will think similarly to myself. They'll consider their vulnerability when taking a Sentry, they'll avoid fighting near objectives. But then we have some people who seem to forego logic in favor of mechanics because Stealth can crutch their mistakes. IE, without Marked, certain Stealth heavy builds can push their luck regardless of location because they're immune to a Tactic thats' purpose is to highlight players on the map.

I'm sorry, but I don't find it to be any less fair for Thieves to have Reveal forced upon them when Marked than it is for any other class to be nakedly visible on the map. The radius of Watch Tower and Sentry isn't any different for Thieves. Consider the risks of being Marked before entering that vicinity, or don't do it.

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:So people are annoyed about thieves hiding in structures. Thieves are annoyed about being randomly marked by sentries and towers in half the map. The solution doesn't currently seem to be pleasing anyone.

So here's a suggestion. Take away tower sentry field upgrade, and replace it with a tactivator activated upgrade that gives marked in the area for 5 mins on a 10 min cooldown (or whatever) like when a keep is just capped. Give this upgrade to keeps also, and make it one of the early upgrades for both towers and keeps.

With this change, unmanned towers become less obnoxious to fight around for stealth classes, but players can now selectively use marked tactic to flush out players hiding when needed without needing to repeatedly nerf said classes or introduce more stupid mechanics. Making it a T1 upgrade means the hiding players have a short window to do their thing, so it's not a guaranteed win, but you're not gonna be hunting them for the next three hours because they'll be forced to leave when the tactivator is used. It also promotes active scouting, as you don't just get a map marker on the enemy zerg for having an upgraded tower, while sentries still retain that functionality since that's the entire point of them being there.

Discuss.

Not sure if I like this or not...

I DO like that it forces someone to work at it by keeping them in the keep/tower to use the tactic, thus being something that isn’t as passive

Not sure I like watchtower being removed from towers but again, it encourages ‘scouting’ and less passive game play

It would help in the keeps for thiefs but also allow for less hindrance running around the BLs for thief toons.

Interesting..

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:When I approach a Sentry I get Marked, which means I'm visible on the mini map. I take this in to consideration any time I decide to capture a Sentry because I know it means there's a risk involved and there's high potential for people to be heading my way. I also know when I fully capture the node Marked will expire, therefore doing so is obviously my priority.

I also don't fight around towers, especially ones with Watch Tower, because again I know I'll be visible on the mini map. I also know fighting around towers in general is a bad idea for more than a few reasons; it's too easy for my opponent(s) to retreat inside, they could get reinforcements, they could use siege, NPC's could add unnecessary pressure.

Thieves have extremely high mobility and more control over where and when a fight happens than any other profession. You can't run away from a Thief that's not finished with you, but a Thief that's prepared can choose where the fight starts, ends and where it moves.

Anyone that doesn't heavily rely on Stealth will think similarly to myself. They'll consider their vulnerability when taking a Sentry, they'll avoid fighting near objectives. But then we have some people who seem to forego logic in favor of mechanics because Stealth can crutch their mistakes. IE, without Marked, certain Stealth heavy builds can push their luck regardless of location because they're immune to a Tactic thats' purpose is to highlight players on the map.

I'm sorry, but I don't find it to be any less fair for Thieves to have Reveal forced upon them when Marked than it is for any other class to be nakedly visible on the map. The radius of Watch Tower and Sentry isn't any different for Thieves. Consider the risks of being Marked before entering that vicinity, or don't do it.

I think you missed the point of this post. I'm trying to suggest something to help you find a deadeye hiding in an objective, not asking for nerfs to marked. I'm not asking for it to be taken away completely either, but that you have more control over when it's applied so you can flush someone out with it. I'm also trying to do this in a way that encourages actual scouting, as I believe automated defenses are generally bad for the mode.

Just for clarification, I can take or leave this change I've suggested. There's ways around the map, EB in particular, that avoid being marked as you attack camps if you know them, and mounts make taking sentries less dangerous for all classes. I'm happy for there to be more counterplay for finding thieves inside enemy objectives, so long as it's not an automatic thing the objective does by itself. It is a fact, however, that marked hits thieves harder than any other class because stealth is one of the main defenses thief has. So what I'm trying to do is find a middle ground, one that gives acceptable, usable counterplay to players trying to secure their keep, but also ensures that we're not just adding more ways to screw over thieves so that we thief players still have a reasonable experience in game. If anyone has a better idea than what I've posted, I'd genuinely love to hear it :)

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Watchtower covers only a small portion of the map. If fighting there is inconvenient for a thief, they have plenty of other grounds to haunt. Likewise, sentries are sparse, predictable and easily flipped. Given that a 'fight' for a thief is usually just insta-gibbing some poor soul, it doesn't strike me as unreasonable to have small pockets where you're somewhat more likely to see what kills you.

I'm not at all convinced that this is a problem or even as burdensome as you make it out to be. Admittedly, it's attempting to solve one problem with a hamfisted counter, but that's practically Anet's signature move...

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@Sviel.7493 said:Watchtower covers only a small portion of the map. If fighting there is inconvenient for a thief, they have plenty of other grounds to haunt. Likewise, sentries are sparse, predictable and easily flipped.

Most of the maps aren't used, there aren't plenty of other grounds to "haunt" because people don't to go to those areas.

@Sviel.7493 said:Given that a 'fight' for a thief is usually just insta-gibbing some poor soul, it doesn't strike me as unreasonable to have small pockets where you're somewhat more likely to see what kills you.I'm not at all convinced that this is a problem or even as burdensome as you make it out to be. Admittedly, it's attempting to solve one problem with a hamfisted counter, but that's practically Anet's signature move...

At least we know where you're coming from when you cry about thieves and try to dress up your posts as legit concerns. The thief will be visible when they kill you, if they're rifle DE you'll probably see their trail as they reposition. If they're not Rifle DE they're probably not going so deep or they're not a stealth heavy build.

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@kash.9213Watchtower is rarely ever on southern towers in the borderland, which leaves ~90% of the map unwatched. If you're talking about EBG, there's much more potential coverage, but in reality anywhere with action should be seeing towers constantly get reset.

Actually, I play almost exclusively thief myself. Deadeyes are one of my easiest matchups--I honestly can't recall the last time I died to one in a 1v1. However, as thief is largely an assassin class when they use enough stealth to complain about marked, they obviously focus on insta-gibbing. This isn't rocket science...

edit: Though if OP is referring to EBG, then I'm definitely more sympathetic to his concerns as that's a much tighter map with more potential coverage. Seeing as I go to EBG maybe a half-dozen times a year, I didn't consider it in my initial post.

edit2: Maybe a lower radius on EBG is in order? Or seperate tactics between EBG and the Borderlands since they're practically two different game modes.

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@Sviel.7493 said:@kash.9213Watchtower is rarely ever on southern towers in the borderland, which leaves ~90% of the map unwatched. If you're talking about EBG, there's much more potential coverage, but in reality anywhere with action should be seeing towers constantly get reset.

Actually, I play almost exclusively thief myself. Deadeyes are one of my easiest matchups--I honestly can't recall the last time I died to one in a 1v1. However, as thief is largely an assassin class when they use enough stealth to complain about marked, they obviously focus on insta-gibbing. This isn't rocket science...

edit: Though if OP is referring to EBG, then I'm definitely more sympathetic to his concerns as that's a much tighter map with more potential coverage. Seeing as I go to EBG maybe a half-dozen times a year, I didn't consider it in my initial post.

edit2: Maybe a lower radius on EBG is in order? Or seperate tactics between EBG and the Borderlands since they're practically two different game modes.

I do roam on EB most of the time as it happens, more players and more interesting fights to be had generally speaking. I am a deadeye main, but I'm not running a one shot build, more of a boonsteal skirmisher thing with S/D as my offset, not dagger mainhand. I was running DA trick DE before the rework, and frankly if rending shade was in another traitline I'd use that over SA. It just so happens I like the rework as it's less focussed on camping stealth and more on frequently weaving stealth now. Kash is likely reacting as he is because we've spoken about builds a few times in various threads, and he knows what I tend to run.

Again though, my post wasn't saying that marked from towers is OP and should be removed. Honestly, I could take or leave the watchtower being removed. I mostly suggested that my tactivator mark idea replace the sentry tower upgrade as it would be redundant from a design perspective to have both.

To reiterate, my suggestion was this; Take away tower sentry field upgrade, and replace it with a tactivator activated upgrade that gives marked in the area for 5 mins on a 10 min cooldown (or whatever) like when a keep is just capped. Give this upgrade to keeps also, and make it one of the early upgrades for both towers and keeps. I don't want to change sentries, as they're irrelevant to the problem I'm trying to address. I don't want to change what marked does on a fundamental level. I want the players to have control over deploying it and increase it's effectiveness in keeps in order to flush out thieves, and to compensate by it not being a 100% uptime thing which would hopefully have the effect of forcing some thought into how it is used. This imo would be a good step towards encouraging active scouting and division of forces across a map instead of the uberblob thing we have now, and would thus be healthy for the game overall. That is all.

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@"kash.9213"While Marked is ruining your day in a particular way, I don't think your suggestion preserves the main intended use of it.

Tactical marking inside a keep/tower is a good idea, though I think it should come standard (like cannons/oil) instead of crowding out every other tactivator. The clear use of that is to flush out portal chumps.

But the marking in the area around the tower is primarily meant to give them a control function. It's not super helpful with scouting attacks (at least in the borderlands) as most of the siege can take place outside of Watchtower range, but it's great for spotting roamers or zergs headed to the all-important North Camp (again, on the borderlands). They can still reach it undetected, but you now have a smaller area to watch. That's not something that will be very useful if it has to be done manually.

Granted, Watchtower is very different beast on EBG with three times the towers stuffed into a smaller area. It's still good for spotting zergs/roamers, but much more effective. In order to avoid both screwing over thieves and screwing over the borderlands, what do you think about splitting the Marked status into two separate entities? Marked One could function as it does now and be manually triggered or applied by Sentries. Marked Two could remain automatic and put you on the mini-map, but not break stealth. They'd need different names/colors, but would generally be statuses that mean "you're not welcome in this area and must take some objective to fix that."

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@Sviel.7493 said:@"kash.9213"While Marked is ruining your day in a particular way, I don't think your suggestion preserves the main intended use of it.

Tactical marking inside a keep/tower is a good idea, though I think it should come standard (like cannons/oil) instead of crowding out every other tactivator. The clear use of that is to flush out portal chumps.

But the marking in the area around the tower is primarily meant to give them a control function. It's not super helpful with scouting attacks (at least in the borderlands) as most of the siege can take place outside of Watchtower range, but it's great for spotting roamers or zergs headed to the all-important North Camp (again, on the borderlands). They can still reach it undetected, but you now have a smaller area to watch. That's not something that will be very useful if it has to be done manually.

Granted, Watchtower is very different beast on EBG with three times the towers stuffed into a smaller area. It's still good for spotting zergs/roamers, but much more effective. In order to avoid both screwing over thieves and screwing over the borderlands, what do you think about splitting the Marked status into two separate entities? Marked One could function as it does now and be manually triggered or applied by Sentries. Marked Two could remain automatic and put you on the mini-map, but not break stealth. They'd need different names/colors, but would generally be statuses that mean "you're not welcome in this area and must take some objective to fix that."

I'd be fine with having two different versions of marked, makes perfect sense the way you'd described it. Forgive me if my last post came over a bit strong, I was just trying to be clear on what I meant ^^

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They could just skip the veiled attempt to get rid of watch tower, and just add the new t1 tactic to reveal the entire structure.

Hiding in structures is so annoying I haven't bothered to do that in years and I don't care to sweep anything anymore, waste of time for something that'll probably flip when people aren't on anyways.

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Problem with tactivators is they can be trolled.

They should just bump the Mark + Stealth -> Reveal threshold to be anything greater than 4 seconds and be done with it. Now a maximum single application of stealth won't force reveal, but chaining stealth in any capacity will.

You can still run with OP's idea by putting keep-wide automatic 1s reveal (to break existing stealth)+ internal mark on an early tactivator to prevent stragglers from staying inside a structure, but the biggest issue with Mark is that it reveals after a mere 2s of stealth, when the minimum timeout is 3s and there are traits to extend it to 4s.

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@XenesisII.1540 said:They could just skip the veiled attempt to get rid of watch tower, and just add the new t1 tactic to reveal the entire structure.That's also fine. If I mean something, be sure I'll say it ^^

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Problem with tactivators is they can be trolled.

This is true. That's the problem with giving players choice in any capacity tho.They should just bump the Mark + Stealth -> Reveal threshold to be anything greater than 4 seconds and be done with it. Now a maximum single application of stealth won't force reveal, but chaining stealth in any capacity will.This would also work. Making this change to reveal, keeping watchtower and giving towers and keeps a marked tactivator would also be an acceptable solution.

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@gebrechen.5643 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:Solution:1) give every class a reveal without the need to have a target2) make revealed not removable3) make revealed last 6-8 seconds

Pretty much this.

What are we replacing stealth attacks and related traits with after that?

A /cry emote for thieves and

This just in: Shroud being removed from necro core and reaper.

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@Sviel.7493 said:@kash.9213Watchtower is rarely ever on southern towers in the borderland, which leaves ~90% of the map unwatched. If you're talking about EBG, there's much more potential coverage, but in reality anywhere with action should be seeing towers constantly get reset.

Actually, I play almost exclusively thief myself. Deadeyes are one of my easiest matchups--I honestly can't recall the last time I died to one in a 1v1. However, as thief is largely an assassin class when they use enough stealth to complain about marked, they obviously focus on insta-gibbing. This isn't rocket science...

edit: Though if OP is referring to EBG, then I'm definitely more sympathetic to his concerns as that's a much tighter map with more potential coverage. Seeing as I go to EBG maybe a half-dozen times a year, I didn't consider it in my initial post.

edit2: Maybe a lower radius on EBG is in order? Or seperate tactics between EBG and the Borderlands since they're practically two different game modes.

Actually your incorrect by only 1/2. We do slap Watchtower on those towers...if the time counter has elapsed that we can actually slot something in there. But we no longer keep live guard players or scouts in those southern areas anymore, that the tower is usually lost pretty quickly, before Watchtower can even be slotted in.

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More active gameplay from Both sidesI appr> @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

So people are annoyed about thieves hiding in structures. Thieves are annoyed about being randomly marked by sentries and towers in half the map. The solution doesn't currently seem to be pleasing anyone.

So here's a suggestion. Take away tower sentry field upgrade, and replace it with a tactivator activated upgrade that gives marked in the area for 5 mins on a 10 min cooldown (or whatever) like when a keep is just capped. Give this upgrade to keeps also, and make it one of the early upgrades for both towers and keeps.

With this change, unmanned towers become less obnoxious to fight around for stealth classes, but players can now selectively use marked tactic to flush out players hiding when needed without needing to repeatedly nerf said classes or introduce more stupid mechanics. Making it a T1 upgrade means the hiding players have a short window to do their thing, so it's not a guaranteed win, but you're not gonna be hunting them for the next three hours because they'll be forced to leave when the tactivator is used. It also promotes active scouting, as you don't just get a map marker on the enemy zerg for having an upgraded tower, while sentries still retain that functionality since that's the entire point of them being there.

Discuss.

Active gameplay from defendersI approveStill no fix on permastealthI dont approve

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