UK Officials Say Loot Boxes Are Gambling

Aurelian Omenkind.2470 · September 13, 2019

Just curious since I honestly haven’t heard... is Magic the Gathering sold in the UK or Belgium? Seems blind packs like those fit the same bill as loot boxes.

Dami.5046 · September 13, 2019

Saw this on the BBC news.Says only for Children, but like you would be able to tell on the net /facepalm.I expect it will happen in the near future, but time they get around to it, i'll be long gone from this game.

Pifil.5193 · September 13, 2019

@"Aurelian Omenkind.2470" said:Just curious since I honestly haven’t heard... is Magic the Gathering sold in the UK or Belgium? Seems blind packs like those fit the same bill as loot boxes.

They quite possibly will however this report was specifically on "Immersive and addictive technologies".

Blur.3465 · September 13, 2019

I honestly have nothing against GW2 store items or Black Lion Chests.Reasons:

You can get gems via in-game gold anytime. Play the game, get rewards from Gem Store with gold.
You can get Black Lion Keys from Story, Exploration and Drops. (Make a new character and do a bit of story, you will get a couple of keys, do exploration you will get keys too, you can get keys from random drops as well. Delete the character, make a new one, repeat)
Game has no subscription model, it also doesn't force you to pay for the new content such as Living Story. They could easily do that, but they don't.
BLC also allows you preview its content. You get statuettes from it, you also can get some valuable items and trade the gold you get for more gems again.
It's not pay to win, as all the items we get are purely cosmetic or convenience.
By making purchases you support the game and make it grow.

Overall, I am not complaining. If the game had a sub system I'd complain then most likely, but this is as harmless as it gets.The way I see those 'loot boxes' are like Kinder Surprise. You don't know what's inside, but you are sure to get something nice.

AlexxxDelta.1806 · September 13, 2019

@Aurelian Omenkind.2470 said:Just curious since I honestly haven’t heard... is Magic the Gathering sold in the UK or Belgium? Seems blind packs like those fit the same bill as loot boxes.

While I'm sure the inspiration for current gaming lootboxes has its roots in games like MtG, it's not exactly the same. The difference between physical and digital plays a big part in this. A kid addicted to physical card packs might spend their lunch money on them. With digital, its far easier for the same behavior to drain whole bank accounts. There are plenty of confirmed cases to be found from a quick google search.

And then, there is the matter of physical value. I still have Pokemon cards from the 90s that I can sell for a good buck. That's not the case with digital RNG goodies. My BLC exclusive item is just pixels with no physical value attached. And if the servers shut down tomorrow, it won't even exist.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108 · September 13, 2019

@Raknar.4735 said:About time they did. We still need the other countries to follow Belgium's decision on lootboxes.

Why do we need this lol. These lootboxes dont bother me. Why not just ban anything that results in some type of vice. I know how about food? Someone cant control themselves with that and got overweight, therefore everyone should not be able to have it. This is the same philosophy.

What's next limiting how many hours a day people can play games or banning them outright because someone, somewhere got addicted and couldnt control themselevs?

Bloodstealer.5978 · September 13, 2019

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:
Loot boxes that can be bought with real-world money
and do not reveal their contents in advance
should be considered games of chance played for money’s worth and regulated by the Gambling Act.

https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/digital-culture-media-and-sport-committee/news/immersive-technology-report-17-19/

Just putting that out there.

And the following as well.

We recommend that working through the PEGI Council and all other relevant channels, the UK Government advises PEGI to apply the existing ‘gambling’ content labelling, and corresponding age limits, to games containing loot boxes that can be purchased for real-world money
and do not reveal their contents before purchase
.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmcumeds/1846/184609.htm

And this too.

One of the most prominent features in the debate about the potential links between game mechanics and gambling is loot boxes. Loot boxes are “items in video games that may be bought for real-world money, but which provide players with a randomised reward of uncertain value.”139 Those rewards will be virtual items for use in the game, such as tools, outfits and weapons, or characters with particular skills, all of which will be of variable benefit within the game. They are a common form of microtransaction, with a 2018 Gambling Commission survey finding that 31% of 11–16 year olds have paid money or used in-game items to open loot boxes.140
Although some games (including, notably, a version of Fortnite) reveal the contents of a loot box to the player before they decide whether to pay for it, usually the contents of loot boxes are unknown to the player at the point of purchase—what a player gets for their money is therefore based on chance

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmcumeds/1846/184606.htm#_idTextAnchor034

Based on the consistent phrasing used, and especially the last bit I quoted, they clearly see a difference between loot boxes that allow you to preview the contents and those that you cannot. The latter being what they consider based on chance and want restrictions on.

This is just my interpretation based on what and how it is written.

The KEY factor (pun intended), whether the game allows for viewing of what in the loot list or not is the fact it still preys on players playing a game of chance to get the item they really want and that is where the hook can be become addictive as players keep on spending to try to get what they want, it also breeds the frustration, which can lead to other behavioural and social issues which will likely fall into the "harm" potential.

As I have said in the other threads that have popped up on this subject of late.. I do not feel this is not just a gaming industry problem, but yes game publishers should be held to task on this issue, but so should a players self control and/or a the parents of players under a clearly defined age restriction. Otherwise the only option is enforcement by higher authority and I don't think any of us really want the BIG BROTHER treatment.I have also said I do believe ANET are better than most on how they deliver their loot box system to players having made in roads to allowing players to simply choose what they want to negate chance (at a cost), they do update the BLC loot list for all to see and they now drop statuettes to allow the direct purchase of certain (often older) items.. but they need to do more to safeguard against the gambling issues the reports highlight especially when considering our younger players. - -so Working Progress.

Trise.2865 · September 13, 2019

Guild Wars 2 is already rated for Teens and older. This legislation should not affect us, at least not severely.

That said, ANet can learn from this and adapt their paid, randomized offerings accordingly. The guaranteed unlock systems used in Mount Adoption Licenses and Wardrobe Unlocks are massive steps forward in this regard, as well as the Black Lion Statuette/Trader's "second chance" systems. As long as ANet can stay ahead of and on top of this issue, there should be few problems.

AlexxxDelta.1806 · September 13, 2019

@"Blur.3465" said:
Overall, I am not complaining. If the game had a sub system I'd complain then most likely, but this is as harmless as it gets.The way I see those 'loot boxes' are like Kinder Surprise. You don't know what's inside, but you are sure to get something nice.

Ah, the infamous (and entertaining to watch) EA defense argument, used in the same UK committee. Almost word for word.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-03-18-world-bank-director-discovers-son-spent-usd4500-on-fifa-packs

I'd be really interested to see a similar story as the above about Kinder surprise then. It'd be amusing, that's for sure.

On a more serious note, here are a few words on the infamous comparison. From someone who actually knows what they are taking about.

https://massivelyop.com/2019/08/05/uk-researcher-stomps-the-lockboxes-are-kinder-eggs-defense-into-paste/

Danikat.8537 · September 13, 2019

I wouldn't assume this will have any effect yet, for the simple reason that it's being done by MPs in the UK and at the moment they couldn't organise a 'party' in a brewery. That and it's not finalised, so we don't even know what the legal position will be, if it gets that far.

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:I think they meant 'preview what you will win' rather than 'preview what you may win'.
I wonder how much it would hurt Guild Wars 2 to have a higher age rating. How easy, or difficult, is that to enforce with sales?

In theory it's very easy because the system is already in place. Age ratings on games and movies are already legally enforced in the UK, so all that's needed is for PEGI, the Gambling Commission or another appropriate authority to determine which games have gambling mechanics and issue the age rating (PEGI already does this, but their ratings are for all of Europe so it might need a secondary one, like when the BBFC used to rate games as well as films). Then retailers are required to ask for ID or other proof that you're above the age limit before selling it and can be fined if they're found to sell games to anyone who is under age.

In practice it's still relatively easy for most children to get games they're not old enough for, but that's usually because their parents will buy it for them without checking why it's got that rating and then it's the parents responsibility for supplying it to the child, a bit like how children can drink alcohol legally under the age of 18 if they're supervised by their parents. (When I worked in a video game store I once got two boys in trouble with their dad because he asked me why the racing game they wanted was rated 18+ and I explained there's a lot more to Grand Theft Auto than racing cars.)

I'm not sure how it works with online sales. I can't remember ever having to confirm I was old enough to buy a game, but it's possible that's something that's covered when I set the account up (or simply by the fact that my debit card is in my own name) and I didn't think about it.

Raknar.4735 · September 13, 2019

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:About time they did. We still need the other countries to follow Belgium's decision on lootboxes.

Why do we need this lol. These lootboxes dont bother me. Why not just ban anything that results in some type of vice. I know how about food? Someone cant control themselves with that and got overweight, therefore everyone should not be able to have it. This is the same philosophy.

What's next limiting how many hours a day people can play games or banning them outright because someone, somewhere got addicted and couldnt control themselevs?

So, you're saying lootboxes aren't gambling and therefore shouldn't be subject to gambling laws? Lootboxes aren't banned in Belgium, they're classified as gambling and therefore shouldn't exist in games targeted to non-adults.Comparing being overweight to gambling targeted at children is not the same philosophy. Lootboxes not bothering you personally is not a valuable argument, since they do bother a lot of other people.

Gambling addiction is also a thing, just like alcohol addiction and other addictions. Last time i've checked there's no alcohol ban in most countries, is there?

Regulation =/= Ban

Blur.3465 · September 13, 2019

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
@"Blur.3465" said:
Overall, I am not complaining. If the game had a sub system I'd complain then most likely, but this is as harmless as it gets.The way I see those 'loot boxes' are like Kinder Surprise. You don't know what's inside, but you are sure to get something nice.

Ah, the infamous (and entertaining to watch) EA defense argument, used in the same UK committee. Almost word for word.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-03-18-world-bank-director-discovers-son-spent-usd4500-on-fifa-packs

I'd be really interested to see a similar story as the above about Kinder surprise then. It'd be amusing, that's for sure.

On a more serious note, here are a few words on the infamous comparison. From someone who actually knows what they are taking about.

https://massivelyop.com/2019/08/05/uk-researcher-stomps-the-lockboxes-are-kinder-eggs-defense-into-paste/

In all seriousness, I'm not defending loot boxes or 'gambling' for that matter...but in GW2 case it's more than harmless considering you can get this via many other means and without spending a single $.I'm all for banning lootboxes from the video games, as it's definitely a bad thing to promote and even keep in a video games.As for your earlier statements...deary me... :facepalm: it's definitely an issue with people who don't know how to control themselves with money spending, fault also being on parents for not monitoring what their children are doing.

I'm just saying I'm not seeing it as a huge issue in GW2 considering you can earn this just by farming gold and exploring/doing story x) I only see it as a lil extra reward for the effort. Heck I'll never spend a single $ for black lion keys.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108 · September 13, 2019

@Raknar.4735 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:About time they did. We still need the other countries to follow Belgium's decision on lootboxes.

Why do we need this lol. These lootboxes dont bother me. Why not just ban anything that results in some type of vice. I know how about food? Someone cant control themselves with that and got overweight, therefore everyone should not be able to have it. This is the same philosophy.

What's next limiting how many hours a day people can play games or banning them outright because someone, somewhere got addicted and couldnt control themselevs?

So, you're saying lootboxes aren't gambling and therefore shouldn't be subject to gambling laws? Lootboxes aren't banned in Belgium, they're classified as gambling and therefore shouldn't exist in games targeted to non-adults.Comparing being overweight to gambling targeted at children is not the same philosophy. Lootboxes not bothering you personally is not a valuable argument, since they do bother a lot of other people.

Gambling addiction is also a thing, just like alcohol addiction and other addictions. Last time i've checked there's no alcohol ban in most countries, is there?

Regulation =/= Ban

Well then I guess we should have mandatory regulation on videogame play time. Basically the same thing.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108 · September 13, 2019

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:About time they did. We still need the other countries to follow Belgium's decision on lootboxes.

Why do we need this lol. These lootboxes dont bother me. Why not just ban anything that results in some type of vice. I know how about food? Someone cant control themselves with that and got overweight, therefore everyone should not be able to have it. This is the same philosophy.

What's next limiting how many hours a day people can play games or banning them outright because someone, somewhere got addicted and couldnt control themselevs?

So, you're saying lootboxes aren't gambling and therefore shouldn't be subject to gambling laws? Lootboxes aren't banned in Belgium, they're classified as gambling and therefore shouldn't exist in games targeted to non-adults.Comparing being overweight to gambling targeted at children is not the same philosophy. Lootboxes not bothering you personally is not a valuable argument, since they do bother a lot of other people.

Gambling addiction is also a thing, just like alcohol addiction and other addictions. Last time i've checked there's no alcohol ban in most countries, is there?

Regulation =/= Ban

Well then I guess we should have mandatory regulation on videogame play time. Basically the same thing.

Frankly I think loot boxes are benign and arent really gambling since what you get isnt money back which is part of the legal definition of gambling. Youre not actually recieving anything that can be sold back for value. So frankly I think no regulation is needed or warented. It's almost the same as running a dungeon and recieving a random "reward" Is that gambling too?

Raknar.4735 · September 13, 2019

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:About time they did. We still need the other countries to follow Belgium's decision on lootboxes.

Why do we need this lol. These lootboxes dont bother me. Why not just ban anything that results in some type of vice. I know how about food? Someone cant control themselves with that and got overweight, therefore everyone should not be able to have it. This is the same philosophy.

What's next limiting how many hours a day people can play games or banning them outright because someone, somewhere got addicted and couldnt control themselevs?

So, you're saying lootboxes aren't gambling and therefore shouldn't be subject to gambling laws? Lootboxes aren't banned in Belgium, they're classified as gambling and therefore shouldn't exist in games targeted to non-adults.Comparing being overweight to gambling targeted at children is not the same philosophy. Lootboxes not bothering you personally is not a valuable argument, since they do bother a lot of other people.

Gambling addiction is also a thing, just like alcohol addiction and other addictions. Last time i've checked there's no alcohol ban in most countries, is there?

Regulation =/= Ban

Well then I guess we should have mandatory regulation on videogame play time. Basically the same thing.

Frankly I think loot boxes are benign and arent really gambling since what you get isnt money back which is part of the legal definition of gambling. Youre not actually recieving anything that can be sold back for value. So frankly I think no regulation is needed or warented. It's almost the same as running a dungeon and recieving a random "reward" Is that gambling too?

Alcohol doesn't have a regulation on the amount you can drink, why should playtime on videogames have one? Saying it is basically the same thing doesn't magically make it the same thing.

I didn't know you had to pay to run dungeons, everytime you run the dungeon. Also if that were the case, you'd pay for the "dungeon-run"-experience, the bosses and everything around that, the loot would be an extra thing. So no, that's not gambling to me, since i'm paying for the whole dungeon, not just rolling the dice to get some item by doing nothing but using a credit card.

The legal definition of gambling is different in every country, so you can't just use the definition you like the most. Lootboxes are gambling in Belgium by definition, so your argument about them not being gambling in legal terms is nonsense.

Lootboxes are actually worse than gambling, since put in money to get virtual goods without resell value, so you are throwing money at nothing, since you don't "recieve anything", by your definition. Atleast with normal gambling you have a chance to have a return of investment ;)

kharmin.7683 · September 13, 2019

@"Raknar.4735" said:
Lootboxes are actually worse than gambling, since put in money to get virtual goods without resell value, so you are throwing money at nothing, since you don't "recieve anything", by your definition. Atleast with normal gambling you have a chance to have a return of investment ;)

Wait, what? Lootboxes at least are guaranteed to give something whereas "normal" gambling does not guarantee any kind of reward.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108 · September 13, 2019

@Raknar.4735 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:About time they did. We still need the other countries to follow Belgium's decision on lootboxes.

Why do we need this lol. These lootboxes dont bother me. Why not just ban anything that results in some type of vice. I know how about food? Someone cant control themselves with that and got overweight, therefore everyone should not be able to have it. This is the same philosophy.

What's next limiting how many hours a day people can play games or banning them outright because someone, somewhere got addicted and couldnt control themselevs?

So, you're saying lootboxes aren't gambling and therefore shouldn't be subject to gambling laws? Lootboxes aren't banned in Belgium, they're classified as gambling and therefore shouldn't exist in games targeted to non-adults.Comparing being overweight to gambling targeted at children is not the same philosophy. Lootboxes not bothering you personally is not a valuable argument, since they do bother a lot of other people.

Gambling addiction is also a thing, just like alcohol addiction and other addictions. Last time i've checked there's no alcohol ban in most countries, is there?

Regulation =/= Ban

Well then I guess we should have mandatory regulation on videogame play time. Basically the same thing.

Frankly I think loot boxes are benign and arent really gambling since what you get isnt money back which is part of the legal definition of gambling. Youre not actually recieving anything that can be sold back for value. So frankly I think no regulation is needed or warented. It's almost the same as running a dungeon and recieving a random "reward" Is that gambling too?

Alcohol doesn't have a regulation on the amount you can drink, why should playtime on videogames have one? Saying it is basically the same thing doesn't magically make it the same thing.

I didn't know you had to pay to run dungeons, everytime you run the dungeon. Also if that were the case, you'd pay for the "dungeon-run"-experience, the bosses and everything around that, the loot would be an extra thing. So no, that's not gambling to me, since i'm paying for the whole dungeon, not just rolling the dice to get some item by doing nothing but using a credit card.

The legal definition of gambling is different in every country, so you can't just use the definition you like the most. Lootboxes are gambling in Belgium by definition, so your argument about them not being gambling in legal terms is nonsense.

Lootboxes are actually worse than gambling, since put in money to get virtual goods without resell value, so you are throwing money at nothing, since you don't "recieve anything", by your definition. Atleast with normal gambling you have a chance to have a return of investment ;)

You just countered your own argument at the end there. Right they have no resell value so its entertainment.

Also many games haven what's called skip tickets or vouchers which give you the random rewards of the dungeon without having to run the dungeon. This saves time and can be purchased with real money or earned in game. How is this any different from paying cash for a black lion key which you could otherwise earn by killing random mobs in game. The cash transaction is just a time save. So it's not really "gambling" more than it is convenience.

AlexxxDelta.1806 · September 13, 2019

@Blur.3465 said:
@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
@Blur.3465 said:
Overall, I am not complaining. If the game had a sub system I'd complain then most likely, but this is as harmless as it gets.The way I see those 'loot boxes' are like Kinder Surprise. You don't know what's inside, but you are sure to get something nice.

Ah, the infamous (and entertaining to watch) EA defense argument, used in the same UK committee. Almost word for word.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-03-18-world-bank-director-discovers-son-spent-usd4500-on-fifa-packs

I'd be really interested to see a similar story as the above about Kinder surprise then. It'd be amusing, that's for sure.

On a more serious note, here are a few words on the infamous comparison. From someone who actually knows what they are taking about.

https://massivelyop.com/2019/08/05/uk-researcher-stomps-the-lockboxes-are-kinder-eggs-defense-into-paste/

In all seriousness, I'm not defending loot boxes or 'gambling' for that matter...but in GW2 case it's more than harmless considering you can get this via many other means and without spending a single $.I'm all for banning lootboxes from the video games, as it's definitely a bad thing to promote and even keep in a video games.As for your earlier statements...deary me... :facepalm: it's definitely an issue with people who don't know how to control themselves with money spending, fault also being on parents for not monitoring what their children are doing.

I'm just saying I'm not seeing it as a huge issue in GW2 considering you can earn this just by farming gold and exploring/doing story x) I only see it as a lil extra reward for the effort. Heck I'll never spend a single $ for black lion keys.

I agree that personal (parental) responsibility is important. But just like alcohol, drugs, RL gambling, authorities should be helping parents dealing with this.

Of course even with regulations, minors could still find ways to play these games just like they find ways to get alcohol. But in that case, the governments would have done their part and the full responsibility would be on the parents.

Raknar.4735 · September 13, 2019

@kharmin.7683 said:
@"Raknar.4735" said:
Lootboxes are actually worse than gambling, since put in money to get virtual goods without resell value, so you are throwing money at nothing, since you don't "recieve anything", by your definition. Atleast with normal gambling you have a chance to have a return of investment ;)

Wait, what? Lootboxes at least are guaranteed to give something whereas "normal" gambling does not guarantee any kind of reward.

I'm just using Jumpin Lumpix's definition, he said "Youre not actually recieving anything that can be sold back for value", so you're guaranteed a reward without value, so nothing at all.

Raknar.4735 · September 13, 2019

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:About time they did. We still need the other countries to follow Belgium's decision on lootboxes.