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Why do the Permastealth Classes Have Ports?


Sviel.7493

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For real ? You have stealth traps,use them with the 40 people trying to find one guy,im sure you can place enough where he will get revealed ! The concept of DE's evolve around being sneaky and stealthy and able to hide,besides the normal counters to them which being reveals we have 2 different types of traps to counter them aswell. If you are unable to get that one guy with your blob,he's just doing a good job,otherwise try harder.

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@Sviel.7493 said:@kash.9213Sniff doesn't see through stealth, I'm told. I don't personally have Warclaw unlocked, but the wiki backs this up. Thus, if the person doesn't drop stealth while the sweep is on, it does nothing. Even if they do get marked, it apparently only lasts for about a second and doesn't prevent stealthing...so all you learn is that there's a DE somewhere about, which you should have known already. By the time you call it out, they've moved on to who knows where.

Ya but it gives you the dot, so everyone knows they're there and roughly where at for circles and whatever else. I'm not against the devs doing some work on perma stealth in general, but not so much taking into account how effective it might be for that infiltration, since that's kind of asking to nerf something based on the game mode suffering or nerfing by tier.

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@kash.9213That dot doesn't show up for your allies, just you. So if it happens to be nearby, you can demount and spam circles, but if it was close enough for that then you would have been able to see them.

The solution could be as simple as marking enemies in a section of a structure after 2.5 minutes with no breach. It could even cost supply, or require the activation of a destructible structure (that respawns like a cannon) that can be disabled. If someone is really good at hiding, that can be a cool thing...so long as it there are still reasonable options for interaction. I would prefer a solution like that so as not to inadvertently gimp the classes in every other situation.

@Caedmon.6798Stealth traps cost supply to put down. If you have the whole zerg use them, that's hundreds of supply down the drain after every breach. The traps also disappear if you leave the map. Also, Deadeyes can remove the Reveal status with ease, so you'd need to hit them with a trap roughly every 20 seconds. It is not hard at all for them to just stay invisible all day.

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@Sviel.7493 said:@kash.9213That dot doesn't show up for your allies, just you. So if it happens to be nearby, you can demount and spam circles, but if it was close enough for that then you would have been able to see them.

The solution could be as simple as marking enemies in a section of a structure after 2.5 minutes with no breach. It could even cost supply, or require the activation of a destructible structure (that respawns like a cannon) that can be disabled. If someone is really good at hiding, that can be a cool thing...so long as it there are still reasonable options for interaction. I would prefer a solution like that so as not to inadvertently kitten the classes in every other situation.

@Caedmon.6798Stealth traps cost supply to put down. If you have the whole zerg use them, that's hundreds of supply down the drain after every breach. The traps also disappear if you leave the map. Also, Deadeyes can remove the Reveal status with ease, so you'd need to hit them with a trap roughly every 20 seconds. It is not hard at all for them to just stay invisible all day.

And you have multiple people to place them around,and supplies aren't hard to come by,it only costs 5 supply. And no they cannot remove the mark effect being it from a tower or the two traps you have available,they have to wait that duration out and will be revealed in the meantime. It just seems you don't really have a clue do you.

It's 30 seconds,btw.

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@Caedmon.6798Well, you were right about two of those things.

They cost 5 supply now (instead of 10) and apply a new version of marked. If enemies stealth for 4 seconds straight, they get revealed...which can then be removed easily by a Deadeye. That change happened last November, by which time I had already stopped playing.

But burning 100+ supply on that when you have a wall that needs repairing is asking too much...and that's not even considering that we're making an entire zerg (of 20) spend a total of 150 Badges of Honor and 1 gold every time a wall falls just in case someone might be hiding. If that's what it takes to be considered effective then, as I keep saying, the effort is far out of reasonable proportions.

For example, you seem like a zergling yourself--would you be willing to lay a trap every time you defended an objective? And then run for supply to finish repairing?

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Yeah anet keeps saying alliances are coming but I wanna know what they plan to do about all these people complaining about the mechanics of every single class when these people aren't even gearing their characters. They need some kind of internal gear checking its gotten so bad and the worst part is for some odd reason they can be walking along and just double down dead and nothing has hit them. So one of them says it had to have been a thief permastealthing! Yes all 50 of you instantly all doubled down from one thief permastealthing it must be nerfed immediately. Although its probably some combination of terrain issues and the fact their stats are so low that it makes a stealthed mega super warclaw pounce on them without ever being seen. Although in queensdale they just had the annual ninja parade for the 465th year in a row they perma stealthed through to lions arch.

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Also, since when is mesmer a permastealth class?

Mesmer isn't, but thief is.

I'm torn on this myself. On most objectives it's not a big issue (due to their smaller size) since if you do a short sweep, you can locate any thief and his fields while he is perma stealthing. If a commander/team doesn't sweep, their loss.

On bigger objectives like SM, it is a different beast.

Now is changing a mechanic and skill interaction justified due to 1 objective which might be affected unproportionally? That's probably a personal opinion for everyone.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:Also, since when is mesmer a permastealth class?

Mesmer isn't, but thief is.

I'm torn on this myself. On most objectives it's not a big issue (due to their smaller size) since if you do a short sweep, you can locate any thief and his fields while he is perma stealthing. If a commander/team doesn't sweep, their loss.

On bigger objectives like SM, it is a different beast.

Now is changing a mechanic and skill interaction justified due to 1 objective which might be affected unproportionally? That's probably a personal opinion for everyone.

I tend to agree with you, I am obviously biased as a DE main tho. I'm happy to see a solution that limits me hiding in keeps etc that doesn't just screw over thieves in general play, here's my stab at solving that;https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/87375/marked-objectives-and-thieves#latest

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I know it can be annoying, however we have more things than ever to deal with it.

First, the structure will often remain contested, outside of say SMC (always contested), its easy to tell whats going on if you are paying attention. Mounts have a marking ability, there are stealth traps, there are marking traps, which are great to put going into lords room or on lord. A small group going into lords will hit the trap and everyone on map will see, and the small group will take some time to cap.

Normal sweeping is still more than possible as well, stealth only lasts so long and you can see effects from the classes, be is smoke fields, blasts etc etc they all also make noise if you are listening that can be heard from a good way off, so even if they are stealthing behind a corner or something, you can hear and know someone is there.

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@gebrechen.5643 said:Why do you think it's legit or justified that a single players mechanics counter is to bring 20-30 people? If that's the way the game should be designed I want my necro shroud to absorb 200.000 damage. You just have to bring a zerg to kill me. Good idea, right?

Actually, that's a very good point. If this was possible with anything else but stealth and required a zerg and sizeable resource investment just to have a chance of stopping it, people would be up in arms. And, even then, at least you'd know for certain that folks were going to get ported in.

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@"Sviel.7493" said:The commander that responded parked his zerg in there for 15+ minutes as we swept and actively gave directions to facilitate said sweeping. I understand that most tags don't do this, but that's not what happened here. This also has nothing to do with non-stealth classes stealing tower caps...

The problem is specifically that the amount of effort needed to counter permastealth classes is way disproportional to the effort of using one and the tools we've been given to this end are tragically ineffective.

While it's in the game, Anet keeps adding new (and ineffective) ways to deal with it as if they think this has made it into something engaging or reasonable. Thus, I'm not certain if they want it to exist and think there's currently enough counterplay or if they're trying to indirectly nerf it.

Well...that was one of the problems I saw. You used the word "Park" As in you stood there. What I needed was six players to put Target Painter Traps at ramps and stairs. Because sooner or later he's going to head to a wall, from his position, in order to get his buddies in. It's at that moment when you have a very short period of time to deal with it. The most time I saw a zerg "Park" was 5 minutes. They mapped out or moved out. Three minutes later, the guy was porting in his buddies. And you only need a small group. "Parking" i'm hoping was a just a bad choice of words, because we needed to "seed" the tower and/or keep at strategic movement locations in order to force the suckers hand. He'd have to move no matter what. And he can't be in every spot that 6 to 8 players would put down Target Painters to know where they are all located. And once he appears, we'd have put pressure on him enough for him to keep moving around trying to find a new hiding spot, and he'd hit another Target Painter, and perhaps another, keeping him visible. This is the only way I know how to pressure one of these guys in order to finally land a meaningful blow and kill on him/her. Still...majority of time, I do see the zerg. And they DO "Park"...in one spot, don't use any target painters....and you really leave it to the Scouts to watch for the sucker. Although now the Scout is being HUNTED by the Deadeye, and I don't see why I should do a "Call out" while i'm being destroyed with nary a helping hand to deal with problem. You might say, i'd get a little miffed that more wasn't done, and may just say "Screw it. If they want to keep the location, they can hunt this guy themselves". I Scouted for three years, and I seen all sorts of responses from commanders. But truly, you want to keep a spot secured, you'll have to do more than just "Park" it. You'll have to do more than just letting one guy watch EVERY single inner and outer wall, while dealing with one or more enemy units inside a location after breach. You'l have to do more than just being a "Fight Club" operator, and that the rest of the WvW Jobs are too damn boring for you.

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@Sviel.7493 said:@Blood Red Arachnid.2493We had about 20 people searching for long enough that participation dropped a tier for an unknown number of deadeyes and we killed a couple.

This .Participation Mechanics.Defending and sweeping - unless you have squad participation share - brings you absolutely NOTHING in WvW.Very poor game design on Anet's part.WvW should be about fighting, capping, attacking and defending. But defenders that are not in a squad are Heavily penatalized for doing so due to Anet being so freakingly scared for AFK'ers

We all want Pips, so we sweep shortly, but as soon at that participation bar goes into the red, we MUST enter battle again to bring it back up...

WvW could use a massive reward make-over.

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