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Do Revenants want the option to customize Legend skills?


Knighthonor.4061

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I would prefer if revenants with the same weapon and under the same legend didn't always have the same exact skills.

For that, I'd like them to have 4th utility per legend, being able to pick 3 out of 4.Also, I'd like more traits that change weapon skills. For example, something like this:

  • Vicious Lacerations
    • Precision Strike turns into Ferocious Strike, which Deals more damage and fires 5 projectiles instead 3.
  • Vital Blessing
    • Now also makes healing orbs gravitate towards the nearest player under 90%HP withing 600 units of each orb.
    • Surge of the Mists turns into Healing Surge, which creates a healing orb every time in interrupts an enemy.
  • Dwarven Battle Training
    • Now also makes Hammer Bolts return to the revenant if they hit nothing in their way out.
    • Field of the Mists turns into Wall of the Mists, which also covers the flanks, but not the back, and returns 5 energy each second it blocks at least 1 attack.
  • Venom Enhancement
    • Instead dealing poison when dealing torment, now poison you deal becomes contagious. Every second, enemies around an enemy you have poisoned gain a stack of poison for 3s.
    • Echoing Eruption turns into Toxic Eruption, which also deals 1 stacks of poison, plus another stack of poison for each condition on the enemy hit, up to 3.
  • Abyssal Chill
    • Frigid Blitz turns into Glacial Vacuum, which pulls enemies hit in its path towards the last enemy hit when the revenant shadows steps.

And so on.

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I'd like to see an general skill category that works with the overall mists-theme of the Revenant.These skills then could be switched with "Legendary" skills for each Legend.

These skills could apply evasion and/or resistance by partially phasing into the mists.However, these should also be upkeep skills to have them interact with the Energy mechanic.

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Revenants have more habilities than the rest of the classes and still i have the feeling that i am using the same 2 utilities all the time (usually the upkeep skills as theyre the strongest with the lowest cost of energy)I would like to see some new skills that actually hit the enemy in shiro or maybe the gap closer that gives us unblokable and 20%dmg for 2 hits split in a gap closer that makes dmg and a skill that boots dmg and makes us unblocake for 2 secsIn jalis more skills that give retaliation (at least one because you only have the heal and in the jalis trait line (retribution) a lot of traits are about buff dmg when having retaliation or getting reta when rolling )Ventari maybe a buff skill?Glint i think is fine except for the ulty , the push with superspeed and dmg is fine but the upkeep giving only protection at a cost of -4 is too much in my opinion (at least make it give quicknes or stability)For kalla i think a new summon spirit could be fine if summons couldnt die so easily but maybe a skill that makes you do something yourself would be betterAnd please look at the trait lines as some need to change traits

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Don't change what makes Revenant the wonderful thing it is.

Having little cooldown to prevent spam, presets to keep legends relevant in their own respect.

You know that everyone will use Riposting Shadow and Phase Traversal together the most with whatever the rest suits the current match up.

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If I am understanding you correctly, I think the dual-legend system is fine as is. Like @LucianTheAngelic.7054 mentioned, I would be happy if there were 4 utility skills for each, but it's hard to imagine exactly what those could be. Personally speaking, I have been a bit bored by both elite spec's interaction with the legend system. Herald at least has some vague interaction with Facet of Nature, but thus far the designs have been rather straightforward and lacking complexity. I often think of Tempest and especially Weaver as being interesting design inspirations for Revenant as legend-swapping has many similarities to attunement-swapping. I would love to have an elite spec that has less emphasis on the new legend and instead focus on the interaction between the two you choose.

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They already have problems balancing within the constraints that are currently there with static sets. The energy system has already been fundamentally compromised by adding cooldowns to skills, changing what Revenant was supposed to be about.

I want them to make a final decision between using energy or using cooldowns. Remove one. Maybe then we can talk about changing skills up.

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@LowestTruth.2635 said:They already have problems balancing within the constraints that are currently there with static sets. The energy system has already been fundamentally compromised by adding cooldowns to skills, changing what Revenant was supposed to be about.

I want them to make a final decision between using energy or using cooldowns. Remove one. Maybe then we can talk about changing skills up.

Both sometimes are needed, gw1 also had energy management and CD a lot of mmos use the same mechanics.

The versatility on rev is that the devs can make a CD legend, a hybrid legend wich most are like that, and on later date we can have some that is more based on no CD with only e-management like some shiro utilities

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@LowestTruth.2635 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:Both sometimes are needed, gw1 also had energy management and CD a lot of mmos use the same mechanics.

I don't disagree; if the class and skills are designed that way from the beginning. For Revenant specifically, my opinion is that it does not work.

Wich skills are not working or I feel they are not working?facets have minimal CD but they consume with passive effect.Jalis uses skills with CD and others with energy dependent and so on...

The only issue I find is that some skills are not tuned for the current gameplay, that end but to expensive due low result for being expensive, this mostly on deamon and assassin legends.

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@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:Both sometimes are needed, gw1 also had energy management and CD a lot of mmos use the same mechanics.

I don't disagree; if the class and skills are designed that way from the beginning. For Revenant specifically, my opinion is that it does not work.

Wich skills are not working or I feel they are not working?facets have minimal CD but they consume with passive effect.Jalis uses skills with CD and others with energy dependent and so on...

The only issue I find is that some skills are not tuned for the current gameplay, that end but to expensive due low result for being expensive, this mostly on deamon and assassin legends.

Basically: skills are expensive and then they add a cooldown. Both are not necessary and make gameplay clunky. Energy is supposed to be the resource spent - the player is supposed to choose what combination to use at what time. Two expensive skills? One expensive and two cheap? Four cheap? Hold the energy until three expensive skills can be spammed?

Energy generation and spend is what should be the balancing factor, as intended. If skill X that costs Y energy should not be used Z times a minute, then Y is increased. Regain energy by swapping legends or smacking things. Make your choices.

Adding a cooldown makes balancing easier; it's also easier to think about limiting things by time instead of by energy. If you don't want someone to use skill X a certain number of times, you increase the cooldown.

The cooldowns remove the purpose of a skill costing energy. There are now two currencies for every skill. Energy is now a pointless and clunky resource because things are balanced around cooldowns - now I just spam skills based on cooldowns instead of considering my energy. The cooldowns force me not to think about energy costs, because it doesn't matter if I have the energy to spend.

That's all very simplistic - there are reams of discussions about how what skills are affected and how and why and whether they're useless or not, but that's where my opinion lands. Thus, I want them to pick one. Energy or cooldowns, not both.

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@LowestTruth.2635 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:Both sometimes are needed, gw1 also had energy management and CD a lot of mmos use the same mechanics.

I don't disagree; if the class and skills are designed that way from the beginning. For Revenant specifically, my opinion is that it does not work.

Wich skills are not working or I feel they are not working?facets have minimal CD but they consume with passive effect.Jalis uses skills with CD and others with energy dependent and so on...

The only issue I find is that some skills are not tuned for the current gameplay, that end but to expensive due low result for being expensive, this mostly on deamon and assassin legends.

Basically: skills are expensive and then they add a cooldown. Both are not necessary and make gameplay clunky. Energy is supposed to be the resource spent - the player is supposed to choose what combination to use at what time. Two expensive skills? One expensive and two cheap? Four cheap? Hold the energy until three expensive skills can be spammed?

Energy generation and spend is what should be the balancing factor, as intended. If skill X that costs Y energy should not be used Z times a minute, then Y is increased. Regain energy by swapping legends or smacking things. Make your choices.

Adding a cooldown makes balancing easier; it's also easier to think about limiting things by time instead of by energy. If you don't want someone to use skill X a certain number of times, you increase the cooldown.

The cooldowns remove the purpose of a skill costing energy. There are now two currencies for every skill. Energy is now a pointless and clunky resource because things are balanced around cooldowns - now I just spam skills based on cooldowns instead of considering my energy. The cooldowns force me not to think about energy costs, because it doesn't matter if I have the energy to spend.

That's all very simplistic - there are reams of discussions about how what skills are affected and how and why and whether they're useless or not, but that's where my opinion lands. Thus, I want them to pick one. Energy or cooldowns, not both.

Revenant comes with the versatility of having lower cooldowns on many/most skills than other classes though, which is something that has to be factored in as well. The energy + cooldown system can work well, but the application of cooldowns have to make sense. For example, Unrelenting Assault is absolutely a skill that should have a CD as if it had 0 CD the energy cost would have to be tremendous to counterbalance how powerful the skill would be with no CD. Phase Traversal is another good example of a skill that is buster with 0 CD (which, on release, it had 0 CD). Granted it had 10 energy cost less back then, but it was literally impossible to get away from a Revenant when PT had 0 CD. even with the increased 10 energy cost the skill would still be extremely strong, so they added a CD to balance it out. Anymore than 30 energy and you’re starting to look at Rite of the Great Dwarf or Jade Winds level costs which leave the Revenant relatively unable to do other things without waiting or swapping legends.

What I mean by “cooldowns have to make sense” is that while they do make sense on some of the old changes, I don’t think they make sense on several of the recent changes with Call to Anguish being the most obvious one. The skill lost its strength as a fair and balanced movement skill by adding the CD out of fear of the Pull being too powerful when spammed. However, I don’t think the pull in its current iteration is strong enough to warrant the CD, so either the CD needs to get removed again or it needs additional effects or buffs to warrant the CD.

Anyway, those are just examples, but CDs + energy certainly work and should go hand in hand, just changes need to be appropriate. Unfortunately, the balance team lately has been too heavy handed in the use of CDs out of fear of making Revenant too OP which sadly leaves the class wanting in several areas

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@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:Anyway, those are just examples, but CDs + energy certainly work and should go hand in hand, just changes need to be appropriate. Unfortunately, the balance team lately has been too heavy handed in the use of CDs out of fear of making Revenant too OP which sadly leaves the class wanting in several areas

I don't disagree with this - and the rest of your post was clear and made some good points.

I think my opinion on it has changed to being so.... bottom-line because I think they've proven, probably because of developer attrition and losing institutional knowledge and class philosophy advocates (i.e., not incompetence), that they can't do the combination correctly. I think they could balance things better by removing one of them. Probably energy and going with CDs. I would hate it, but I would have more faith that the balance swings wouldn't be both so wild and changes so all over the board.

Unlike other people, I do think they're listening. I just think they don't get the information they need, due to lack of dialog, and then they miss rather large problems that are caused by the changes they make. I'd rather they remove the impediments to their understanding than keep flailing, I guess.

And I will absolutely concede that I am both cynical and pessimistic after the last round of changes, disproportionately so.

Addendum:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:What I mean by “cooldowns have to make sense” is that while they do make sense on some of the old changes, I don’t think they make sense on several of the recent changes with Call to Anguish being the most obvious one. The skill lost its strength as a fair and balanced movement skill by adding the CD out of fear of the Pull being too powerful when spammed. However, I don’t think the pull in its current iteration is strong enough to warrant the CD, so either the CD needs to get removed again or it needs additional effects or buffs to warrant the CD.

One big problem is that I do not perceive a history of reverting mistakes or admitting they made one. They double-down and try to make it work with the first decision, as if the decision was the word of God. Iteration can move backwards and forwards to find a happy medium, but they don't appear to believe that when it comes to skill changes.

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@Lonami.2987 said:Being able to customize some slot skills through traits would be a good start. The lack of skill customization is one of the revenant's biggest design problems, together with having both cooldowns and resource; either one or another.

Captain obvious here:While it is what allows rev to get 2 sets of utilities like a weapon swap while having a weapon swap wich is what distinguishes rev from other classes just think about it.

Now not every can understand how to play every class like I can’t understand how to thief and deadeye In this game I’m simple bad with those.

Tdlr: I think u guys don’t understand rev why would we mix legends skills??

I would jus request for a more in depth avaliation of anet while creating legend utilities and weapon skills imo that’s the problem of the class they lack decent iteration and they leave most stuff to abandonware until some dev tries to play with it,

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@Aeolus.3615 said:I think u guys don’t understand rev why would we mix legends skills??It's less about Revenant mixing legends, and more about the Variation Revenants can have per legend.A fourth utility skills per legends would be a start.Adding a neutral skill set that can be mixed into any legend could work, too.Also, racial skills could be mixed into the legends.

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@Aeolus.3615 said:

Tdlr: I think u guys don’t understand rev why would we mix legends skills??

I would jus request for a more in depth avaliation of anet while creating legend utilities and weapon skills imo that’s the problem of the class they lack decent iteration and they leave most stuff to abandonware until some dev tries to play with it,

Well because customization is a big role in this game. Revenants are the only class that cant really do that. All our utility skills are picked for us. With large gaps between elite specs and expansion content, we are left with pretty much the same exact builds because we cant change up legend skills and stuck with the same number of legends. I could understand if maybe we have far more Legends to mix and match, but right now we only have 4 Legends and 2 Elite Legends to pick from each with skills already defined and chosen for you. Many of which dont synergize at all. like Ventari and Assassin.

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@Knighthonor.4061 said:

Tdlr: I think u guys don’t understand rev why would we mix legends skills??

I would jus request for a more in depth avaliation of anet while creating legend utilities and weapon skills imo that’s the problem of the class they lack decent iteration and they leave most stuff to abandonware until some dev tries to play with it,

Well because customization is a big role in this game. Revenants are the only class that cant really do that. All our utility skills are picked for us. With large gaps between elite specs and expansion content, we are left with pretty much the same exact builds because we cant change up legend skills and stuck with the same number of legends. I could understand if maybe we have far more Legends to mix and match, but right now we only have 4 Legends and 2 Elite Legends to pick from each with skills already defined and chosen for you. Many of which dont synergize at all. like Ventari and Assassin.

Herald sinergizes with ventari quite dencently it’s just a build that won’t carry like fb stacked and spamming and it’s a good build to pair with your support and offense.Rev is ok renegade was a poorly done legend, but in future anet need to release better designed legend that can be paired with one or two legends, like we could have a dual dagger and GS alternatives to use with jalis or assassin.

Herald/ventari is good by helping your firebrands since heals targets where fb can’t, iand if u have a jalis in group that’s even better, this trio with althe help of a scrapper and scourges it’s a very good comp being in small grouop or arger one.

Atm I’m using herald/ventari in every game mode mostly in wvw, it just not a build that most like to play cause it’s does not carry alone nor has escapes it’s a team build for 10(wich is arround my team size) it can heal players with a passive 1k healing regen per sec plus constant fury and might apliance to the same 10 players, plus several spike catching heals, just like monk in PvP/gvg in gw1 runing patient spirit while jalis can be the be seen as the prot monk.

On swap from herald to vent it’s a 5 k team heal, ventari f2 passive every 3 sec is arround 2.5k to 3k to 10 players, way more than guardian virtues passive heal just to 5 players, while herald can trait passive f2 to affect 10 players, also heals from the staff skill 2 and 4(this one is a blast heal support skill when blasting waters it’s amazing lol heal on top of heal plus condi cleanse).

Revs have also shield 4, it’s a another 5k heal wich is a bit clunky with shield 5 buts that’s another story.

Ventari is also nice to fight against range combat that dome will force range classes move to other position with can be dangerous for them if u have your jalis hammer zerker revs ready while also providing 50% damage reducing that can’t be corrupted as well a nice stability to alies in front of them to avoid them being kB or kd, if no dome it’s not needed nor big heals are needed to catch spikes players swap back to 1k regen support while providing boons prot fury might speed if needed, condi cleanse whatever, there’s several ways to play herald besides hammer spammer, even most fail to understand how jalis is great and if not quite strong, most dont even know when to use the jalis elite, if they complain skill is useless should Anet just remove the elite for something else, ic players using RoTGD when team is not taking damage.. or players pushing w/o stability and w/o jalis RoTGD, the same happens while playing other legends mostly ventari, not to talk those allies that run form the tablet thinking it is a enemy skill...it really happens once in a while....

Rev is on good spot it just different from other classes that have its own gimmick rotation to instant self Reward, I can have assassin for that but if fail to kill target assassin can’t heal like other classes like holo for example, as well it’s the reason we need a decent elite to pair with more legends.

I this don’t invalidate that rev does not need some minor nerds and buffs, but rev skills tied to legends is quite fun and make you tune for certain game players mayyybe Anet if reading this can release 1 more core trait to all classes before start thinking in elite specs, wich atm rev is lacking to pair with shiro assassin at best.

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@Virdo.1540 said:How about putting the Revenants Barrier/Boon from Salvation into Retribution, where the SUSTAIN should be coming from. Then we can at least get a bit closer to the Guards & Warriors if it comes to sustaining. (Still less damage then them, but at least a bit closer to their sustain)

Jalis isnt about sustain, its about damage reducing(like cast RoTGD when part of ur team is cought inside a spellbreaker dome so the spikedamage is reduced by 50% andyoru firebrands or any other support ur team has closer can support those allies cought in bublle or stunned and spiked ), its ment to be a team work class with mass damage and damage reducing to the team he is suporting, sustain comes from knowing how Rev works and pairing its counterparts of legend combinations in a team, rev isnt to be played like a holosmith.

Barrier in jalis also felt wrong due the stats barrier needs, and Jalis only gain barrier when swap to jalis inside the enemy group, I would remove barrier from Jalis and would add to tablet movement since we lost protection on it

If possible would add something else on jalis swap, but we have 20% damage reducing as f2 passive already wich can reach 10 players with herald trait so I would request for anet to make Draconic Echo to affect invocation traits when both are traited since herald affect F2 and invocation improves F2 facets when herald is traited. as well.

With that, on legend swap jalis could be a 10 player shorter version(like 2sec) of RoTGD, that would also have a secondary effect. IMO would improve sinergy on herald jalis swap.jalis is great on damage stats to soldiers at worst, idk why would Anet use barrier on that while barrier scales from Vitality +healing power.

> If u guys tell me that Rev needs a QoL skill / trait revision... i totally agree with it, now mixturing the legends its wrong and rev would loose, mixturing skills to legends that would only make sense IF Invocation line had its own core utilities skills that could be mixtured with any other legend, Anet could also add a core weapon, a scepter or offhand tied to the invocation like wich IMO we are lacking , if that is what most ofu talking about that could be interesting.

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