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Marked, objectives, and thieves


Jugglemonkey.8741

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It's pretty easy to simply implement a Supply costed Reveal field, with instant cast.

It takes 10 so yu can only reveal only twice anywhere on the field with 25 supply cap.

It will instantly make people who use it right beat thieves or stealth spammers.

Stealth players will then have to bait out 2 reveals to give the enemy some challenge.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

This just in: Shroud being removed from necro core and reaper.

The problem you don't understand is that reveal doesn't kill your class and neither does a watch tower. It just nerfs a really overpowered mechanic. And yes, your reaction to a justified nerf isn't more than crying about losing your op status. At the moment there is no counterplay to stealth - especially not with deadeye reveal removal and the fact that many reveals have a) very low radius b) very few usable reveals on the builds and c) reveal tied to a targetting mechanic.There isn't a single other mechanic that is so terribly unbalanced since the release of that game. I can't remember a time where classes that had easy access to stealth weren't viable or even overpowered and the problem I personally have with this is that this is what kills that game mode in small scale, roaming, pvp and even zergs.I'd go that far and say stealth has done more damage to wvw than Anets changes with mounts, gliding, auto-upgrades and boon/condition changes or even linking.

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@gebrechen.5643 said:

This just in: Shroud being removed from necro core and reaper.

The problem you don't understand is that reveal doesn't kill your class and neither does a watch tower. It just nerfs a really overpowered mechanic. And yes, your reaction to a justified nerf isn't more than crying about losing your op status. At the moment there is no counterplay to stealth - especially not with deadeye reveal removal and the fact that many reveals have a) very low radius b) very few usable reveals on the builds and c) reveal tied to a targetting mechanic.There isn't a single other mechanic that is so terribly unbalanced since the release of that game. I can't remember a time where classes that had easy access to stealth weren't viable or even overpowered and the problem I personally have with this is that this is what kills that game mode in small scale, roaming, pvp and even zergs.I'd go that far and say stealth has done more damage to wvw than Anets changes with mounts, gliding, auto-upgrades and boon/condition changes or even linking.

What you don’t understand is it’s not my class. Necro/Ele main here.

And given I understand that thief is a hard counter to necro, I get it...

Length of stealth is more the issue.

Marked/sentry etc not an issue. Good thief players avoid it.

If you truly want this addressed: go to the thief professions forum section and post there. In here? It’s just bluster.

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@gebrechen.5643 said:

This just in: Shroud being removed from necro core and reaper.

The problem you don't understand is that reveal doesn't kill your class and neither does a watch tower. It just nerfs a really overpowered mechanic. And yes, your reaction to a justified nerf isn't more than crying about losing your op status. At the moment there is no counterplay to stealth - especially not with deadeye reveal removal and the fact that many reveals have a) very low radius b) very few usable reveals on the builds and c) reveal tied to a targetting mechanic.There isn't a single other mechanic that is so terribly unbalanced since the release of that game. I can't remember a time where classes that had easy access to stealth weren't viable or even overpowered and the problem I personally have with this is that this is what kills that game mode in small scale, roaming, pvp and even zergs.I'd go that far and say stealth has done more damage to wvw than Anets changes with mounts, gliding, auto-upgrades and boon/condition changes or even linking.

Reveal kind of does kill Thief at times. The class is so heavily built around it for most builds, that it's become out defensive. Can't hit what you can't keep track of.If you add that much reveal to the game, you're going to need to give Thief either more ability to remove it, or augment their defenses to the point its even again. Which would you rather have to deal with? Thief with actual defensive abilities, traits, and skills, or Thief with Stealth?

Also, there being no counterplay to stealth is absolute bollocks. The counterplay isnt coded, its learned. You fight thieves, learn their ticks, and counteract them. The oldest one in the book was when fighting a thief, and they stealth, count to two and a half, then dodge to avoid the incoming backstab. You can't beat a class that was designed around outmaneuvering someone, without outmaneuvering them.

Edit: Yes, I am a thief main. I have been since launch.

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@Invictorum.7643 well said.

I think more people need to spend a few hours playing thief to understand a little better their weaknesses.

Any well played class is tough to play.

With a non typical cool down process for skills based on initiative, it is kind of a foreign animal for people.

Now, I don’t think the way stealth is right now is fully healthy. But the young cats who want to delete stealth are people that have no idea what they are actually asking for.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:@"Invictorum.7643" well said.

I think more people need to spend a few hours playing thief to understand a little better their weaknesses.

Any well played class is tough to play.

With a non typical cool down process for skills based on initiative, it is kind of a foreign animal for people.

Now, I don’t think the way stealth is right now is fully healthy. But the young cats who want to delete stealth are people that have no idea what they are actually asking for.

Thats the thing many people don't consider. The amount of mechanics in this game right now is beyond unhealthy.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW#meta

So far every build I have found on that site is unhealthy. ALL of them need nerfs. Scourges, DE's, Holo's, Soulbeasts, Firebrands, Cele weavers, condi mirages etc. The list is endless. Occasionally, one particular build will stand out. Like Deadeye before the nerfs, and sicem+rapidfire+unstoppable union before it was nerfed etc. Some classes needed emergency nerfs. Tbh Firebrand could use an emergency nerf but i digress.

People want to remove stealth? Fine. But make sure allll those other things are brought down too. Because right now, thief, which is still good despite what some alarmists will tell you, certainly doesn't stand above them.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:@Invictorum.7643 well said.

I think more people need to spend a few hours playing thief to understand a little better their weaknesses.

Any well played class is tough to play.

With a non typical cool down process for skills based on initiative, it is kind of a foreign animal for people.

Now, I don’t think the way stealth is right now is fully healthy. But the young cats who want to delete stealth are people that have no idea what they are actually asking for.

That's pretty much where I'm at with gw2 stealth. Until there's some clear threshold in stealth duration stack like 4s or something that cuts off the ability to stealth attack and makes you toggle out before attacking, any map counter to stealth duration that's just static like that only creates the need to rework stealth related traits and skills or it's a dick move to certain builds. I think the OP idea is pretty fair, and I'd even be okay with the effect being a little more impactful in the immediate term as long as it's deliberate and not static.

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@gebrechen.5643 said:

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:

This just in: Shroud being removed from necro core and reaper.

The problem you don't understand is that reveal doesn't kill your class and neither does a watch tower. It just nerfs a really overpowered mechanic. And yes, your reaction to a justified nerf isn't more than crying about losing your op status. At the moment there is no counterplay to stealth - especially not with deadeye reveal removal and the fact that many reveals have a) very low radius b) very few usable reveals on the builds and c) reveal tied to a targetting mechanic.There isn't a single other mechanic that is so terribly unbalanced since the release of that game. I can't remember a time where classes that had easy access to stealth weren't viable or even overpowered and the problem I personally have with this is that this is what kills that game mode in small scale, roaming, pvp and even zergs.I'd go that far and say stealth has done more damage to wvw than Anets changes with mounts, gliding, auto-upgrades and boon/condition changes or even linking.

Regarding times when classes with access to stealth not being viable, you clearly didn't play thief in the first couple of PvP seasons after HoT release. I remember people afk'ing until I swapped to another class, that's how popular thieves were. Also, do you remember the meme of power mesmer is not viable, Lord Helseth is viable? There's a reason that was funny in vanilla. All of this is completely off topic though, since I was making a suggestion to counter people hiding in keeps.

Consider this; here I am suggesting a change to help you deal with stealth classes hiding in objectives, to give you that counterplay to stealth that you assert does not exist, and all you can do is throw it back at us and tell us to stop complaining about something I didn't actually complain about in the first place. When you're ready to have a reasoned discussion beyond "stealth OP", I'll be all ears. Until then, enjoy being killed by stealth classes, I guess.

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@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:Regarding times when classes with access to stealth not being viable, you clearly didn't play thief in the first couple of PvP seasons after HoT release. I remember people afk'ing until I swapped to another class, that's how popular thieves were. Also, do you remember the meme of power mesmer is not viable, Lord Helseth is viable? There's a reason that was funny in vanilla. All of this is completely off topic though, since I was making a suggestion to counter people hiding in keeps.

Consider this; here I am suggesting a change to help you deal with stealth classes hiding in objectives, to give you that counterplay to stealth that you assert does not exist, and all you can do is throw it back at us and tell us to stop complaining about something I didn't actually complain about in the first place. When you're ready to have a reasoned discussion beyond "stealth OP", I'll be all ears. Until then, enjoy being killed by stealth classes, I guess.

Why are you trying to derail the whole topic by "but in one or two pvp seasons". PvP is a complete other issue. This isn't the pvp forum btw.

I made an excellent suggestion how to fix that broken mechanic and the first reaction was "LOL DESTROYS THE CLASS" which is a) completely wrong and b) the kind of discussion coming from people that want to keep their easy mode.I don't think the tower reveal needs a rework. The reveal in general needs a rework. We got the reveal skill to have a counter to stealth because of the times before PoF and still the reveals for classes are on tied to mostly useless skills and most builds viable don't even have access.

The question that still stands is: Who thought giving thieves a portal skill would be a great idea?

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@gebrechen.5643 said:

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:Regarding times when classes with access to stealth not being viable, you clearly didn't play thief in the first couple of PvP seasons after HoT release. I remember people afk'ing until I swapped to another class, that's how popular thieves were. Also, do you remember the meme of power mesmer is not viable, Lord Helseth is viable? There's a reason that was funny in vanilla. All of this is completely off topic though, since I was making a suggestion to counter people hiding in keeps.

Consider this; here I am suggesting a change to help you deal with stealth classes hiding in objectives, to give you that counterplay to stealth that you assert does not exist, and all you can do is throw it back at us and tell us to stop complaining about something I didn't actually complain about in the first place. When you're ready to have a reasoned discussion beyond "stealth OP", I'll be all ears. Until then, enjoy being killed by stealth classes, I guess.

Why are you trying to derail the whole topic by "but in one or two pvp seasons". PvP is a complete other issue. This isn't the pvp forum btw.

I made an excellent suggestion how to fix that broken mechanic and the first reaction was "LOL DESTROYS THE CLASS" which is a) completely wrong and b) the kind of discussion coming from people that want to keep their easy mode.I don't think the tower reveal needs a rework. The reveal in general needs a rework. We got the reveal skill to have a counter to stealth because of the times before PoF and still the reveals for classes are on tied to mostly useless skills and most builds viable don't even have access.

The question that still stands is: Who thought giving thieves a portal skill would be a great idea?

I was replying to this?

@gebrechen.5643 said:There isn't a single other mechanic that is so terribly unbalanced since the release of that game. I can't remember a time where classes that had easy access to stealth weren't viable or even overpowered and the problem I personally have with this is that this is what kills that game mode in small scale, roaming, pvp and even zergs

It's hardly a derailment when it's a direct reply to something you stated.

I will admit your first comment was on point, but although the reply was more sarcastic than it could have been, he has a point. The thing you're not realising is that reveal does screw over thieves disproportionately because it's one of our main defensive skills and power creep means people get blown up faster than they used to. Adding more reveal hasn't fixed the problem of people hiding as of yet, everyone has access to the traps and tricks, so unless you go for something like I'm suggesting you're not going to get a deadeye out of your tower anytime soon.

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

The thing you're not realising is that reveal does screw over thieves disproportionately because it's one of our main defensive skills and power creep means people get blown up faster than they used to.

You're wasting your time with him I think, Its clear that all his posts are driven by emotion when it comes to thieves, and I'd be willing to bet my quip he hasn't played any thief stealth build in his entire time with the game.

Nerf what I don't play, buff what I play. A tale as old as time.

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