Slittymoss.5718 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @mohdhm.8627 said:@"Trollocks.5084" said:I love playing mesmer. The worst part of the class? The mesmer boards here.sure you do, go to metabattle.com and find a mesmer build. YOU CANT! lmao! the class has been kitten killed. Also, apparently WvW is dead, PvP is dead, man this game went to kitten.http://metabattle.com/wiki/Mesmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinnel.4369 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@mohdhm.8627 said:It's almost as if these people don't play their own games yet rely on whiner feedback.To add to that they never acknowledge a mistake and never revert those stupid nerfs.Well.....they nerfed condi mirage and then reverted most of it. I remember that as thats what got me to stop playing condi mirage and look into DPSWhat skills/traits did they revert?Its been a while since, however iirc it was condi applications/condi damage on the weapons. May have included the DoT on the shatter as well but I dont remember 100%I'm absolutely sure there was not a single skill/trait revert concerning mirage.Axe confusion to torment and then back to confusion. I don't know if you can call that a full reversion, but..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Tinnel.4369 said:@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@mohdhm.8627 said:It's almost as if these people don't play their own games yet rely on whiner feedback.To add to that they never acknowledge a mistake and never revert those stupid nerfs.Well.....they nerfed condi mirage and then reverted most of it. I remember that as thats what got me to stop playing condi mirage and look into DPSWhat skills/traits did they revert?Its been a while since, however iirc it was condi applications/condi damage on the weapons. May have included the DoT on the shatter as well but I dont remember 100%I'm absolutely sure there was not a single skill/trait revert concerning mirage.Axe confusion to torment and then back to confusion. I don't know if you can call that a full reversion, but.....Good thing I didnt say a full reversion ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Delofasht.4231 said:@Taygus.4571 said:@Delofasht.4231 said:@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:That is because mesmer was busted as hell and needed to be nerfed a lot to bring it into balance. It is only now that Mesmer is either at or below the level of most classes.Mesmer has EVER been balanced around the idea of higher variance due to their resource being both ONLY in combat AND destroyable. No other profession is punished by their own resource so heavily, No other? Necromancers want a word with you. OP...if you haven't been playing for 6 years....why are you complaining about mesmer nerfs? You know nothing about the class anymore. Necromancer’s life force bar can be destroyed before it even gets to be used? Interesting, I was pretty sure there is opportunity to use it before it gets destroyed. Can AoE keep a Necromancer from being able to even use their resource at all?If you consistently have your resource "destroyed before you can use it at all" then you're just a bad mesmer. In other words: "l2p issue"....or maybe you're just trying to draw a purely hypothetical situation in order to try and have any point at all.What we as a Mesmer community may desire is almost always ignored, because the non Mesmer community invariably cries about symptoms that have always been a result of the balance point of the profession (which forces greater variance and less reliability).If you fail to admit that mesmer was simply too strong for quite some time without being touched by patches then you're lying to yourself as much as you're lying to the others. Some aspects might have been over-nerfed, but claiming that you (as a class) are being consistently bullied with nerfs is pretty laughable.@mohdhm.8627 you came back to the game after 5-6 years and you feel you're ready to throw a balance judgment on anything that happened in the game during that time? That's... pretty interesting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delofasht.4231 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 @Sobx.1758 said:@Delofasht.4231 said:@Taygus.4571 said:@Delofasht.4231 said:@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:That is because mesmer was busted as hell and needed to be nerfed a lot to bring it into balance. It is only now that Mesmer is either at or below the level of most classes.Mesmer has EVER been balanced around the idea of higher variance due to their resource being both ONLY in combat AND destroyable. No other profession is punished by their own resource so heavily, No other? Necromancers want a word with you. OP...if you haven't been playing for 6 years....why are you complaining about mesmer nerfs? You know nothing about the class anymore. Necromancer’s life force bar can be destroyed before it even gets to be used? Interesting, I was pretty sure there is opportunity to use it before it gets destroyed. Can AoE keep a Necromancer from being able to even use their resource at all?If you consistently have your resource "destroyed before you can use it at all" then you're just a bad mesmer. In other words: "l2p issue"....or maybe you're just trying to draw a purely hypothetical situation in order to try and have any point at all.Our point of contestation is that of situational viability. In a duel or small scale, pulling off max clone shatters is not usually an issue, it is when Zergs and group combat takes place and AoE can blanket an area that keeps a Mesmer from functioning at even half capacity that an issue is revealed. Either way, the solution to beating a Mesmer is keeping enough hard hitting AoE down at all times, and that means beating one usually revolves around denial of resource, as opposed to actually outplaying their skills through effective timing of defensive skills.What we as a Mesmer community may desire is almost always ignored, because the non Mesmer community invariably cries about symptoms that have always been a result of the balance point of the profession (which forces greater variance and less reliability).If you fail to admit that mesmer was simply too strong for quite some time without being touched by patches then you're lying to yourself as much as you're lying to the others. Some aspects might have been over-nerfed, but claiming that you (as a class) are being consistently bullied with nerfs is pretty laughable.I am saying that the majority of players fail to see WHY a Mesmer was too strong in so many situations. In fact, that was exactly why they did not hit them with nerfs in the way that many have desired, because the general populace does not understand that Mesmer has to have higher maximum output potential because their resource and damage can be destroyed. The result is that because Mesmer clones can be killed, shatters must apply more than what the devs might allot for a skill usually, because a large portion of the time the shatter may not even land (because clones are killed, and not because of normal damage prevention methods).@mohdhm.8627 you came back to the game after 5-6 years and you feel you're ready to throw a balance judgment on anything that happened in the game during that time? That's... pretty interesting.When one steps away from something for awhile, when they come back their new perspective may allow them to see th8ngs that others who have been immersed the entire time may miss completely.Justifying the issues of Mesmer by indicating inferiority of skill is poor taste and represents a lack of strong argument. The problem sources from the core functionality of Mesmers’ illusions (clones and phantasms), and not from numbers tuning, change those to be consistent with other profession resources and damage sources (not separate stats and failing to activate sigil sand runes) then numbers tuning can commence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 @Delofasht.4231 said:@Sobx.1758 said:@Delofasht.4231 said:@Taygus.4571 said:@Delofasht.4231 said:@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:That is because mesmer was busted as hell and needed to be nerfed a lot to bring it into balance. It is only now that Mesmer is either at or below the level of most classes.Mesmer has EVER been balanced around the idea of higher variance due to their resource being both ONLY in combat AND destroyable. No other profession is punished by their own resource so heavily, No other? Necromancers want a word with you. OP...if you haven't been playing for 6 years....why are you complaining about mesmer nerfs? You know nothing about the class anymore. Necromancer’s life force bar can be destroyed before it even gets to be used? Interesting, I was pretty sure there is opportunity to use it before it gets destroyed. Can AoE keep a Necromancer from being able to even use their resource at all?If you consistently have your resource "destroyed before you can use it at all" then you're just a bad mesmer. In other words: "l2p issue"....or maybe you're just trying to draw a purely hypothetical situation in order to try and have any point at all.Our point of contestation is that of situational viability. In a duel or small scale, pulling off max clone shatters is not usually an issue, it is when Zergs and group combat takes place and AoE can blanket an area that keeps a Mesmer from functioning at even half capacity that an issue is revealed. Either way, the solution to beating a Mesmer is keeping enough hard hitting AoE down at all times, and that means beating one usually revolves around denial of resource, as opposed to actually outplaying their skills through effective timing of defensive skills.What we as a Mesmer community may desire is almost always ignored, because the non Mesmer community invariably cries about symptoms that have always been a result of the balance point of the profession (which forces greater variance and less reliability).If you fail to admit that mesmer was simply too strong for quite some time without being touched by patches then you're lying to yourself as much as you're lying to the others. Some aspects might have been over-nerfed, but claiming that you (as a class) are being consistently bullied with nerfs is pretty laughable.I am saying that the majority of players fail to see WHY a Mesmer was too strong in so many situations. In fact, that was exactly why they did not hit them with nerfs in the way that many have desired, because the general populace does not understand that Mesmer has to have higher maximum output potential because their resource and damage can be destroyed. The result is that because Mesmer clones can be killed, shatters must apply more than what the devs might allot for a skill usually, because a large portion of the time the shatter may not even land (because clones are killed, and not because of normal damage prevention methods).No, the class shouldn't be allowed to overperform because it doesn't excell at some situations.@"mohdhm.8627" you came back to the game after 5-6 years and you feel you're ready to throw a balance judgment on anything that happened in the game during that time? That's... pretty interesting.When one steps away from something for awhile, when they come back their new perspective may allow them to see th8ngs that others who have been immersed the entire time may miss completely.No, saying that a newcommer (because that's what he is after not following the game for the past 6 years, when it's out for 7) has a good grasp of the game and its balance because of a "fresh perspective" is some A-grade bullkitten no matter what colors you'll try to paint it in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delofasht.4231 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 @"Sobx.1758" said:No, the class shouldn't be allowed to overperform because it doesn't excell at some situations.No, saying that a newcommer (because that's what he is after not following the game for the past 6 years, when it's out for 7) has a good grasp of the game and its balance because of a "fresh perspective" is some A-grade bullkitten no matter what colors you'll try to paint it in.This contrarian thinking is not productive. You choose to ignore the views of someone new who notes the same things that others have noted, who asks for clarity, and when presented you simply deny the situation completely. Also, you misuse the term overperform, which would indicate that Mesmer has better representation and is numerically superior to other professions in most or all situations.The inverse of your first statement here would simply be:"No, the class shouldn't be allowed to underperform because it does excel at some situations."This is the point most Mesmer tend to make actually, because the profession as a whole is treated as doing too much of everything only because it seems that way in a duel against a lesser skilled opponent. Good players using a strong build always provide a good challenge to me as a Mesmer, even in duels... you may say that it sounds like a l2p issue if someone is having issues dueling a Mesmer.Alternatively, as I have continually pointed out in this and other threads... Mesmer needs their balanced shifted away from a reliance on a destroyable resource so that they can be balanced around reliable, consistent sources of damage, utility, and defense tools. In short, if the elements of Mesmer resources were reliable, as is the case for every other profession, then the balance you and I both desire could be achieved through simple numbers tuning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 @Delofasht.4231 said:@"Sobx.1758" said:No, the class shouldn't be allowed to overperform because it doesn't excell at some situations.No, saying that a newcommer (because that's what he is after not following the game for the past 6 years, when it's out for 7) has a good grasp of the game and its balance because of a "fresh perspective" is some A-grade bullkitten no matter what colors you'll try to paint it in.This contrarian thinking is not productive. Pointing out basic lack of logic in your pseudo-arguments is far from being a contrarian. Someone that played for half a year and then came back after 6 years of changes and additions sure is a reliable source of critique regarding the balance because of his uniquely fresh view on the matter, ok. Feel free to think whatever you want, it just looks like a bad bait. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delofasht.4231 Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 @Sobx.1758 said:@Delofasht.4231 said:@Sobx.1758 said:No, the class shouldn't be allowed to overperform because it doesn't excell at some situations.No, saying that a newcommer (because that's what he is after not following the game for the past 6 years, when it's out for 7) has a good grasp of the game and its balance because of a "fresh perspective" is some A-grade bullkitten no matter what colors you'll try to paint it in.This contrarian thinking is not productive. Pointing out basic lack of logic in your pseudo-arguments is far from being a contrarian. Someone that played for half a year and then came back after 6 years of changes and additions sure is a reliable source of critique regarding the balance because of his uniquely fresh view on the matter, ok. Feel free to think whatever you want, it just looks like a bad bait.I think logic does not mean what you think it means... if you couldn’t follow a given point, it may be that you failed to make the connection between elements, but not asking for clarity and disregarding a statement flatly is exactly being contrary for the sheer purpose of having an objection and not to actually further your own argument. Feel free to think whatever you want, but there is no need to live under a bridge.Your argument revolves around the assertion that your statement is fact, without providing any kind of logical backing. It is based solely on your own viewpoint and assessment of what balance, performance, and representation mean, and refuses to accept any data that may point to other possibilities. It is a known that assessment of a situation from an outside source or someone not in or on a project is an excellent way to discover information that many working on the project are too close to notice. This is why consultants exist, people who are versed and knowledgeable in game design or play know how to analyze a game for inherent issues in design. Often even an ignorant person will recognize issues subconsciously even if they cannot explain why. This is true in artwork as well, people know when they like or dislike something even if they cannot voice it in a verbose and clear manner... you can disregard what I say, but it doesn’t make you correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now