Do Revenants want the option to customize Legend skills?

[Knighthonor.4061]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Virdo.1540 said:How about putting the Revenants Barrier/Boon from Salvation into Retribution, where the SUSTAIN should be coming from. Then we can at least get a bit closer to the Guards & Warriors if it comes to sustaining. (Still less damage then them, but at least a bit closer to their sustain)

Barrier in jalis also felt wrong due the stats barrier needs, and Jalis only gain barrier when swap to jalis inside the enemy group, I would remove barrier from Jalis and would add to tablet movement since we lost protection on it

If possible would add something else on jalis swap, but we have 20% damage reducing as f2 passive already wich can reach 10 players with herald trait so I would request for anet to make Draconic Echo to affect invocation traits when both are traited since herald affect F2 and invocation improves F2 facets when herald is traited. as well.

With that, on legend swap jalis could be a 10 player shorter version(like 2sec) of RoTGD, that would also have a secondary effect. IMO would improve sinergy on herald jalis swap.jalis is great on damage stats to soldiers at worst, idk why would Anet use barrier on that while barrier scales from Vitality +healing power.

honestly that Barrier trait in salvation proves what somebody else said that Revenant is designed around Herald and not the other way around. Many flaws of of the Revenant class imo. I rather they do customization for legends.

If they want Ventari to be some kind of Boon applier like Herald, than give me skills to do that without herald, otherwise leave traits like that in Herald.

I like using Dwarf for WvW, but I would gladly trade Inspiring Reinforcement for some more damage reduction. Also would trade Forced Engagement for something more useful to my play style. I use Demon Legend for Resistance, and would gladly trade most of the skills for something to go along with Condition defense if I had the ability to Customize legends to fit play style.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Virdo.1540 said:How about putting the Revenants Barrier/Boon from Salvation into Retribution, where the SUSTAIN should be coming from. Then we can at least get a bit closer to the Guards & Warriors if it comes to sustaining. (Still less damage then them, but at least a bit closer to their sustain)

> If u guys tell me that Rev needs a QoL skill / trait revision... i totally agree with it, now mixturing the legends its wrong and rev would loose, mixturing skills to legends that would only make sense IF

Invocation

line had its own core utilities skills that could be mixtured with any other legend, Anet could also add a core weapon, a scepter or offhand tied to the invocation like wich IMO we are lacking , if that is what most ofu talking about that could be interesting.

I dont think new weapons are the solution to this problem. New Weapons for core are needed for other reasons imo, but as for the lack of customization of the utilities is a separate issue from the lack of weapon skill choices. Invocation should have been a specialization around energy management and neutral effects but again been mostly built for Herald in mind.

I believe Legends can keep their identity if they had more skills that can be changed out for that legend. Demon deals with Conditions, for example, why not have skills for applying conditions, while also having skills for condition defense and let player choose their play style. right now Demon has only one skill for Condition defense and rest have to come from Herald or Demonic Defiance.Neutral Skills would also be a great addition as well to addressing this problem. Allowing Demon to keep most of its skills while allowing me to swap out skills that dont fit my play style with something that does, like more group condition defence skills on my demon legend.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Virdo.1540 said:How about putting the Revenants Barrier/Boon from Salvation into Retribution, where the SUSTAIN should be coming from. Then we can at least get a bit closer to the Guards & Warriors if it comes to sustaining. (Still less damage then them, but at least a bit closer to their sustain)

Barrier in jalis also felt wrong due the stats barrier needs, and Jalis only gain barrier when swap to jalis inside the enemy group, I would remove barrier from Jalis and would add to tablet movement since we lost protection on it

If possible would add something else on jalis swap, but we have 20% damage reducing as f2 passive already wich can reach 10 players with herald trait so I would request for anet to make Draconic Echo to affect invocation traits when both are traited since herald affect F2 and invocation improves F2 facets when herald is traited. as well.

With that, on legend swap jalis could be a 10 player shorter version(like 2sec) of RoTGD, that would also have a secondary effect. IMO would improve sinergy on herald jalis swap.jalis is great on damage stats to soldiers at worst, idk why would Anet use barrier on that while barrier scales from Vitality +healing power.

> If u guys tell me that Rev needs a QoL skill / trait revision... i totally agree with it, now mixturing the legends its wrong and rev would loose, mixturing skills to legends that would only make sense IF

Invocation

line had its own core utilities skills that could be mixtured with any other legend, Anet could also add a core weapon, a scepter or offhand , if that is what most ofu talking about that could be interesting.

honestly that Barrier trait in salvation proves what somebody else said that Revenant is designed around Herald and not the other way around. Many flaws of of the Revenant class imo. I rather they do customization for legends.

If they want Ventari to be some kind of Boon applier like Herald, than give me skills to do that without herald, otherwise leave traits like that in Herald.

I like using Dwarf for WvW, but I would gladly trade Inspiring Reinforcement for some more damage reduction. Also would trade Forced Engagement for something more useful to my play style. I use Demon Legend for Resistance, and would gladly trade most of the skills for something to go along with Condition defense if I had the ability to Customize legends to fit play style.

Revenant being based arround Herald, that m8 be actually true, i feel the same, but that happens cause well legends... issue on Anet developer classes they lack that analysis, and they lacked to see what i stated about invocation line above and Renegade design, on future rev will feelmore complete not every legends needs to be fitted with everything as well...

Ventari is no boon aplyer thats not the role of the spec, it is a good direct heal with minor very minor boons not every one needs to ends playing a spammbrand, herald it is the boon aplyer being in regen , prot, and damge boons, with some more tactifull gameplay, or space for that.

Imo jalis defense part isnt bad butneeds more sinergy from herald and invocation with the lack of sinergy i can understand and agreem for damage relies to much on hammer range, the vengfull hammers can help u with some minimal sustain since it does small healing ticks and its dmaage only works on stats tuned for damage.Forced Engagement, imo lacks daamage and needs to be a short aoe or cleave utility spreadign several chains making your targets slow and taunted, that could fix the skills.For renegade jalis theres very good builds outthere as much i dont like to play them besides renegade/deamin wich is the only legend that makes me play Renegade.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Knighthonor.4061

Theres a theme, you play legends, those legends have its own skills, if Anet wanted for us to mix legends they would not make the class arround legends, but with the same use watchever u want from core skills like any other class works

For that Anet needs to end the legend "class system" wich is not what class is about. :\ while this is what makes class fun, if i wanted somethign strong i could mix and get carried i would be playing holo.Still ill enforce with the core utilities on invocation line that are lacking and could reach a hybrid system,having the possibility of use invication utilities by having or not having its line traited.

Some of u talk abotu mixtureing legends utilities, that is being ending with a build with less sinergy than anythign else in the game...

[Fueki.4753]

@Aeolus.3615 said:Theres a theme, you play legends, those legends have its own skills, if Anet wanted for us to mix legends they would not make the class around legends, but with the same use watchever u want from core skills like any other class works

There is a theme: we channel the power of the mists and the memories of certain individuals ingrained into the mists, not actually the specific legendary characters themselves.There is nothing that should prevent Revenants to channel general power, which NOT tied to specific figures.Arenanet probably just didn't want to go this road because the profession was built purely as fan service and throw backs to GW1.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:Theres a theme, you play legends, those legends have its own skills, if Anet wanted for us to mix legends they would not make the class around legends, but with the same use watchever u want from core skills like any other class works

There is a theme: we channel the power of the mists and the memories of certain individuals ingrained into the mists, not actually the specific legendary characters themselves.

"we channel the power of the mists and the memories of certain individuals ingrained into the mists"

Those memories are the legends translating that for u :)

Glint didnt know shiro skills, and jalis didnt do dragon skills :)

U channel 1 memory at a time, not both at same time.

There is nothing that should prevent Revenants to channel general power, which NOT tied to specific figures.Arenanet probably just didn't want to go this road because the profession was built purely as fan service and throw backs to GW1.

Thats where rev lacks and that's is where i think Anet should touch since some of u see this as a problem , dontforget that Rev with legends utilites mixtured is a mess of a useless class so that is just, i dont have any other way to say it besides being trully and blunt... it just stupid.

If players feel and want to mixture skills cause rev ended to much tied to legends, Invication line needs to be tweaked to its own core pack of utilities that can be used on every elite or legend, maybe Anet could use that to fix another rev issue ich is lack of core weapon... i can imagine Mist charges trait tied to it.

Lets say imagine that Invocation line gets rebranded to Mist Powers, and has like 6 new utilities, there utilites can be ussed w/o having its trait line traited.Imo 3 new utilites that would change deppending legend being used like trident does would be really nice, Mist power could ocupy even a legend slotif needed to improve normal effect of the trait line when traited.Can we play with that what kind of skills it would work?

[Thornwolf.9721]

I would love more choice and customization, it would be so cool to talor your rev to be something more akin to one of the specific legends and have multiple skills. (Example would be able to take battle-scars from shiro over jade daggers.)

[Fueki.4753]

@"Aeolus.3615" said:U channel 1 memory at a time, not both at same time.My idea never was to mix different legends together.My idea was always to mix legends (one at a time) with general "invoke mist energy" skills and racials.

Lets say imagine that Invocation line gets rebranded to Mist Powers,Why rename it? 'Invoking' the mist powers works with the theme.

Mist power could ocupy even a legend slotThat would remove the entire point of general skills being independent to legends.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:U channel 1 memory at a time, not both at same time.My idea never was to mix different legends together.

Lets say imagine that Invocation line gets rebranded to Mist Powers,Why rename it? 'Invoking' the mist powers works with the theme.

Mist power could ocupy even a legend slotThat would remove the entire point of general skills being independent to legends.

beign also based on what players wanted above, i dont tend to see and resolve problems at a time, wich m8 create another problems for the solution of other issues :) so i like to talk about overall changes that fix many issues.

My idea was always to mix legends (one at a time) with general "invoke mist energy" skills and racials.That's what i was talkign about then as well, wich would be the max of skill mixing rev should get.

[Engal.6359]

Make it so you can replace any skill. If you dont want a heal skill, you can take more dmg/utility. But give it some kind of trade off, rev is fine and doesn't need a buff.

[InsaneQR.7412]

I want customisation.But with glyphs and signets instead of mixing legend skills.

[starlinvf.1358]

@LowestTruth.2635 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:Both sometimes are needed, gw1 also had energy management and CD a lot of mmos use the same mechanics.

I don't disagree; if the class and skills are designed that way from the beginning. For Revenant specifically, my opinion is that it does not work.

I disagree..... I find its the breadth of the utilities that exacerbate (and exemplify) the majority of Rev's combat flow issues. Fundamentally, what Rev lacks is the ability to properly align all of its utility skills with the rest of its build. Ranger has a similar issue, since many of utilities are too narrow in purpose, which leads to them needing too many different skills to help round itself out. This is made worse (on both classes) by the weapon skills not really synergizing with the utilities in any clear way, making the more like "things you should chain" rather then "things that play well off each other".

With Rev specifically, this can be traced back to the narrow applications of the utility skills themselves. For most classes, utilities tend to have 2 or 3 broad use cases that allow some flexibility in various combat situations. Rev and Ranger are have the most difficulty being made well rounded, INCLUDING Especs. Mixing and Matching wouldn't really fix this problem; since if it were, removing the CD on Legend Swap would feel like a huge step in the right direction.

Another thing I want to point out is how Rev is power loaded, compared to classes that should have similar issues, yet don't. Like I mentioned earlier, Rev weapons and Utilities operate independently from each other. Memser Ele and Thief are similar in this regard, but in all these classes you'll notice the utilities are well made to either compliment or supplement what the Weapons are/aren't providing. Recall that Rev wasn't meant to have weapon swap, and that the paired Weapons and Utilities were supposed to work together to define its playstyle. What this actually means is that the Utilities are an extension of the Weapon's playstyle, and were never designed to round out shortcomings the rest of the Kit presents. Again pointing to ranger, the weapons and utilities don't have natural interplay; and in many cases neither do the Traits.

Guardian is considered the gold standard for this game's buildcraft, because ALL of its skills naturally work together, and most of its utility skills interplay extremely well with its weapon skills. This happened, because its weapon skills also have a high degree of utility, giving more leeway in your utility choices. Necro weapons also have a fairly decent degree of utility and made for applying pressure, but has very few utility skills that help them play off it further. But in the case of Reaper and Scourge, the Shroud changes provide an avenue for the utility skills to act as setup or pay off, and the weapons gain new value in how their pressure now has a burst to compliment.

So in summation, the energy and CD of skills isn't really the real cause of Rev's problems. Its that we continually need more things on-demand then the Utilities currently offer; which leads to spamming skills to cover all the threats being experienced, which in turn makes the energy look like the bottleneck. Initially Rev skills were very potent.... strong enough to bypass some of these issues. So as they were scaled back (for "balance"), this issue of needing more skills then you have, became a lot more prominent. If each utility set or weapon set could satisfy more requirements mid-combat, the energy system would not feel so overbearing.

[Aeolus.3615]

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@LowestTruth.2635 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:Both sometimes are needed, gw1 also had energy management and CD a lot of mmos use the same mechanics.

I don't disagree; if the class and skills are designed that way from the beginning. For Revenant specifically, my opinion is that it does not work.

I disagree..... I find its the breadth of the utilities that exacerbate (and exemplify) the majority of Rev's combat flow issues. Fundamentally, what Rev lacks is the ability to properly align all of its utility skills with the rest of its build. Ranger has a similar issue, since many of utilities are too narrow in purpose, which leads to them needing too many different skills to help round itself out. This is made worse (on both classes) by the weapon skills not really synergizing with the utilities in any clear way, making the more like "things you should chain" rather then "things that play well off each other".

With Rev specifically, this can be traced back to the narrow applications of the utility skills themselves. For most classes, utilities tend to have 2 or 3 broad use cases that allow some flexibility in various combat situations. Rev and Ranger are have the most difficulty being made well rounded, INCLUDING Especs. Mixing and Matching wouldn't really fix this problem; since if it were, removing the CD on Legend Swap would feel like a huge step in the right direction.

Another thing I want to point out is how Rev is power loaded, compared to classes that should have similar issues, yet don't. Like I mentioned earlier, Rev weapons and Utilities operate independently from each other. Memser Ele and Thief are similar in this regard, but in all these classes you'll notice the utilities are well made to either compliment or supplement what the Weapons are/aren't providing. Recall that Rev wasn't meant to have weapon swap, and that the paired Weapons and Utilities were supposed to work together to define its playstyle. What this actually means is that the Utilities are an extension of the Weapon's playstyle, and were never designed to round out shortcomings the rest of the Kit presents. Again pointing to ranger, the weapons and utilities don't have natural interplay; and in many cases neither do the Traits.

Guardian is considered the gold standard for this game's buildcraft, because ALL of its skills naturally work together, and most of its utility skills interplay extremely well with its weapon skills. This happened, because its weapon skills also have a high degree of utility, giving more leeway in your utility choices. Necro weapons also have a fairly decent degree of utility and made for applying pressure, but has very few utility skills that help them play off it further. But in the case of Reaper and Scourge, the Shroud changes provide an avenue for the utility skills to act as setup or pay off, and the weapons gain new value in how their pressure now has a burst to compliment.

So in summation, the energy and CD of skills isn't really the real cause of Rev's problems. Its that we continually need more things on-demand then the Utilities currently offer; which leads to spamming skills to cover all the threats being experienced, which in turn makes the energy look like the bottleneck. Initially Rev skills were very potent.... strong enough to bypass some of these issues. So as they were scaled back (for "balance"), this issue of needing more skills then you have, became a lot more prominent. If each utility set or weapon set could satisfy more requirements mid-combat, the energy system would not feel so overbearing.

I ic what u meant but I understand that’s on just some legends, at least for me some do really sinergize well, about weapons I do think they sinergizing is enough with the legends mace with deamon, staff ventari/herald mostly, hammer with everything lol that’s power based.

Atm I just don’t like 2 of the legends that I really have issue to play wich Is assassin and deamon, imo they have very expensive utilities, and deamon well utilities are meh, to pricey, but on terms of build renegade is a good elite to mix with deamon as much I do t like it, u can stack easilly 40 stacks of torment with deamon and mace.

Note: Not all elite legends and core ones need to have perfect sinergy, for shiro to make that legend stable it needs a energy revision and something like a good melee Gs or dual dagger elite spec to make a decent build with sinergy, deamon is nice with renegade but, meh renegades....I don’t like the design of it, so I’ll leave for those who like to play them.

Sinergy about specs and traits is something that gets increases over time, it does not need to be perfect.

Tdlr I do agree that some legends need more tweaking, but saying that everything in rev does not synergize is a bit overrated.We just need better elite legends, I don’t think renegade was a good design.