Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Why elementalists are a half class?


SeikeNz.3526

Recommended Posts

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:yeah.. but you lose one spec line when you do that

Seriously man, you need to look closer and think about it.Yes, there are some traits that gives some benefits (or more) when you are attuned to one element. But if you look closer, those benefits are generally stronger than other professions.Let's take Empowering Flame (minor adept in fire): +150 power when attuned to fire. Can you give me another profession with such a strong bonus in minor adept ?Then, all minor master are spells cast on attunments and they are great.

Now, there is bit of contradiction between fire and air attunments (you choose either ferocity, either power) but it got improved with last patch (you now gain more benefits in fire). And unless you are using conjures, best damage skills are in fire anyway.

Last, imagine those bonus would stay all the time, it would be OP and these traits would be nerfed.Ele gameplay is driven by its attunment, it's all about attuning on the right moment.

ele gameplay is about being a half class all the time, so what's the point of having 150 power at minor adept if the skills scale at 0,1 ratio? any class can outdps a elementalist even a guardian, elementalist meteor that is supposed to be the highest dmg have random hits and low damage with a huge cast timethen if i choose fire to spec and i change to earth i lose all my specs what is the point of having "the kit"?

now we can look at other classes they just have 10% dmg/good buffs... at minor adept and this work with any skill

Looks like ele is doing well in dps compared to the rest :D

Did you check latest Elitist raid tournament or any raid run lately?...weaver is not even used anylonger, barely seeing tempest on a single boss, rest of the times is stacked dragon hunters and chronos.....

I mean did you actually check properly the website you're trying to use? ...just look at recommended comps for each boss...do you see a single ele anywhere?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:yeah.. but you lose one spec line when you do that

Seriously man, you need to look closer and think about it.Yes, there are some traits that gives some benefits (or more) when you are attuned to one element. But if you look closer, those benefits are generally stronger than other professions.Let's take Empowering Flame (minor adept in fire): +150 power when attuned to fire. Can you give me another profession with such a strong bonus in minor adept ?Then, all minor master are spells cast on attunments and they are great.

Now, there is bit of contradiction between fire and air attunments (you choose either ferocity, either power) but it got improved with last patch (you now gain more benefits in fire). And unless you are using conjures, best damage skills are in fire anyway.

Last, imagine those bonus would stay all the time, it would be OP and these traits would be nerfed.Ele gameplay is driven by its attunment, it's all about attuning on the right moment.

ele gameplay is about being a half class all the time, so what's the point of having 150 power at minor adept if the skills scale at 0,1 ratio? any class can outdps a elementalist even a guardian, elementalist meteor that is supposed to be the highest dmg have random hits and low damage with a huge cast timethen if i choose fire to spec and i change to earth i lose all my specs what is the point of having "the kit"?

now we can look at other classes they just have 10% dmg/good buffs... at minor adept and this work with any skill

Looks like ele is doing well in dps compared to the rest :D

Did you check latest Elitist raid tournament or any raid run lately?...weaver is not even used anylonger, barely seeing tempest on a single boss, rest of the times is stacked dragon hunters and chronos.....

I mean did you actually check properly the website you're trying to use? ...
just look at recommended comps for each boss...do you see a single ele anywhere?

I raid every single day and I watched ERP3. Yes, ele wasnt used but that wasnt because ele has no damage. I provided evidence that ele Is at the top of dps. Reason why ele is not recomended is that DH/FB is very close but you can play one more DPS with them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:yeah.. but you lose one spec line when you do that

Seriously man, you need to look closer and think about it.Yes, there are some traits that gives some benefits (or more) when you are attuned to one element. But if you look closer, those benefits are generally stronger than other professions.Let's take Empowering Flame (minor adept in fire): +150 power when attuned to fire. Can you give me another profession with such a strong bonus in minor adept ?Then, all minor master are spells cast on attunments and they are great.

Now, there is bit of contradiction between fire and air attunments (you choose either ferocity, either power) but it got improved with last patch (you now gain more benefits in fire). And unless you are using conjures, best damage skills are in fire anyway.

Last, imagine those bonus would stay all the time, it would be OP and these traits would be nerfed.Ele gameplay is driven by its attunment, it's all about attuning on the right moment.

ele gameplay is about being a half class all the time, so what's the point of having 150 power at minor adept if the skills scale at 0,1 ratio? any class can outdps a elementalist even a guardian, elementalist meteor that is supposed to be the highest dmg have random hits and low damage with a huge cast timethen if i choose fire to spec and i change to earth i lose all my specs what is the point of having "the kit"?

now we can look at other classes they just have 10% dmg/good buffs... at minor adept and this work with any skill

Looks like ele is doing well in dps compared to the rest :D

Did you check latest Elitist raid tournament or any raid run lately?...weaver is not even used anylonger, barely seeing tempest on a single boss, rest of the times is stacked dragon hunters and chronos.....

I mean did you actually check properly the website you're trying to use? ...
just look at recommended comps for each boss...do you see a single ele anywhere?

I raid every single day and I watched ERP3. Yes, ele wasnt used but that wasnt because ele has no damage. I provided evidence that ele Is at the top of dps. Reason why ele is not recomended is that DH/FB is very close but you can play one more DPS with them.

you proved nothing about top dps, you just showed someone with all the possible buffs hitting a static npc with all possibles debuffs on the game

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:you proved nothing about top dps, you just showed someone with all the possible buffs hitting a static npc with all possibles debuffs on the game

Do you even understand the point of a benchmark? Its there to compare under equal circumstances.

so where is the other classes benchmark under same circumstances?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Already send them some posts ago but just a number might not be enough so here are videos.

And just to be clear, all those videos are done only with boons and buffs that you actualy have in raid. Last ones are from LN, they dont use consumables in these videos but instead more buffs so the numbers should be similar.

Here is an actual boss kill. Just check if those boons ever drop if you dont belive me

And it is true that ele is a glass cannon. You can do huge damage but you also die quickly. In my opinion, going full damage is the way to go since there are more balanced classes that combine defense and damage. If you take more defense on ele, then something else will be better. I think that ele should go all in on the thing he does best, damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:Already send them some posts ago but just a number might not be enough so here are videos.

And just to be clear, all those videos are done only with boons and buffs that you actualy have in raid. Last ones are from LN, they dont use consumables in these videos but instead more buffs so the numbers should be similar.

Here is an actual boss kill. Just check if those boons ever drop if you dont belive me

And it is true that ele is a glass cannon. You can do huge damage but you also die quickly. In my opinion, going full damage is the way to go since there are more balanced classes that combine defense and damage. If you take more defense on ele, then something else will be better. I think that ele should go all in on the thing he does best, damage.

39 to 33 is only 18% more.How much more complicated or harder is the Condition Weaver rotation compared to one of the Power Soulbeast? And how much more squishy is the Condition Weaver compared to the Power Soulbeast?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@Mewcifer.5198 said:What do you mean by one less spec?

well because you are supposed to change elements in combat but all the traits specs only work if you are attuned to that element, so you are specless if you change your element, any other class can do way more dps than a elementalist since they are slow as kitten.

we can compare it to a fb as a exemple, fb has f1 f2 f3 plus weapon changing if they want, totalizing 5 set of skills+traits specs that synergy with them all, while a elementalist have only 4 but with traits that don't synergy.

then we have weavers with 2 set of element skills but the specs only work for the first element even if you are attuned to 2 elements

Guuuuy <3I loved this comment, I totally agree with this.When you're not attuned to fire, you'll have only half power.Arcane is useless, I never saw a really good build with that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Kashrlyyk.5364 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:Already send them some posts ago but just a number might not be enough so here are videos.

And just to be clear, all those videos are done only with boons and buffs that you actualy have in raid. Last ones are from LN, they dont use consumables in these videos but instead more buffs so the numbers should be similar.

Here is an actual boss kill. Just check if those boons ever drop if you dont belive me

And it is true that ele is a glass cannon. You can do huge damage but you also die quickly. In my opinion, going full damage is the way to go since there are more balanced classes that combine defense and damage. If you take more defense on ele, then something else will be better. I think that ele should go all in on the thing he does best, damage.

39 to 33 is only 18% more.How much more complicated or harder is the Condition Weaver rotation compared to one of the Power Soulbeast? And how much more squishy is the Condition Weaver compared to the Power Soulbeast?

18 percent is huge.And yes, you get more dps because it is harder to play. Is there a problem with this?

Lets say that a fight takes 3 minutes. Then that weaver deals 1080000 more damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Already send them some posts ago but just a number might not be enough so here are videos.

And just to be clear, all those videos are done only with boons and buffs that you actualy have in raid. Last ones are from LN, they dont use consumables in these videos but instead more buffs so the numbers should be similar.

Here is an actual boss kill. Just check if those boons ever drop if you dont belive me

And it is true that ele is a glass cannon. You can do huge damage but you also die quickly. In my opinion, going full damage is the way to go since there are more balanced classes that combine defense and damage. If you take more defense on ele, then something else will be better. I think that ele should go all in on the thing he does best, damage.

39 to 33 is only 18% more.How much more complicated or harder is the Condition Weaver rotation compared to one of the Power Soulbeast? And how much more squishy is the Condition Weaver compared to the Power Soulbeast?

18 percent is huge.And yes, you get more dps because it is harder to play. Is there a problem with this?

Lets say that a fight takes 3 minutes. Then that weaver deals 1080000 more damage.

That's not how it works. DPS builds dont have constant dps all the time, the dps is spread out on big bursts and dps drops. 2 weaver builds that were spread out by only a few seconds had huge dps difference because one rotation finished at it's lowest drop while other one was in the middle of it's burst. 4 mil golem doesnt give you a realistic picture about general dps, it just serves as a standard because all dps builds can be tested under same conditions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@steki.1478 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Already send them some posts ago but just a number might not be enough so here are videos.

And just to be clear, all those videos are done only with boons and buffs that you actualy have in raid. Last ones are from LN, they dont use consumables in these videos but instead more buffs so the numbers should be similar.

Here is an actual boss kill. Just check if those boons ever drop if you dont belive me

And it is true that ele is a glass cannon. You can do huge damage but you also die quickly. In my opinion, going full damage is the way to go since there are more balanced classes that combine defense and damage. If you take more defense on ele, then something else will be better. I think that ele should go all in on the thing he does best, damage.

39 to 33 is only 18% more.How much more complicated or harder is the Condition Weaver rotation compared to one of the Power Soulbeast? And how much more squishy is the Condition Weaver compared to the Power Soulbeast?

18 percent is huge.And yes, you get more dps because it is harder to play. Is there a problem with this?

Lets say that a fight takes 3 minutes. Then that weaver deals 1080000 more damage.

That's not how it works. DPS builds dont have constant dps all the time, the dps is spread out on big bursts and dps drops. 2 weaver builds that were spread out by only a few seconds had huge dps difference because one rotation finished at it's lowest drop while other one was in the middle of it's burst. 4 mil golem doesnt give you a realistic picture about general dps, it just serves as a standard because all dps builds can be tested under same conditions.

Yes, you are right. It is not the same diference as I wrote. To be fair I dont play weaver (or dps) and I dont know if those builds ended on burst or not so I used a statistical method. I made an assumption that those benchmarks end not right after burst and not right before burst.And If you look at the MO video, that weaver is still first in dps.I still stand by the fact that 18 percent more DPS is huge diference.

So to sumarise this conversationEles should do huge damage because it is squishy -> ele doesCore ele should do huge damage -> not the best but still decent numbersThe best ele builds are complicated for their advantage -> If a build has more skills then others and still only need to use a few to be at same dps then something is wrong.Full berserker gear is not playable -> I play itEle is squisy -> most enemies die before they touch him.

Hope I havent forgot anything

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its's a stance dancer class. Its not intended to have everything applied all of the time. Considering how strong some traits are, it would be absolutely OP if they were constantly applied at the same time.

Your DPS is very good, and if you are someone who enjoys stance dancing it is extremely fun to play. Also, water attunement is basically "get out of jail card" even if you don't have any healing power meaning that is a DPS class that actually has viable healing for extreme situations, unlike most other class that predominantly rely on their healing skill.

honestly for me playing weaver has been some of the most fun I have ever had in this game, precisely because I have to balance out between attunment buffs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Already send them some posts ago but just a number might not be enough so here are videos.

And just to be clear, all those videos are done only with boons and buffs that you actualy have in raid. Last ones are from LN, they dont use consumables in these videos but instead more buffs so the numbers should be similar.

Here is an actual boss kill. Just check if those boons ever drop if you dont belive me

And it is true that ele is a glass cannon. You can do huge damage but you also die quickly. In my opinion, going full damage is the way to go since there are more balanced classes that combine defense and damage. If you take more defense on ele, then something else will be better. I think that ele should go all in on the thing he does best, damage.

39 to 33 is only 18% more.How much more complicated or harder is the Condition Weaver rotation compared to one of the Power Soulbeast? And how much more squishy is the Condition Weaver compared to the Power Soulbeast?

18 percent is huge.And yes, you get more dps because it is harder to play. Is there a problem with this?

Lets say that a fight takes 3 minutes. Then that weaver deals 1080000 more damage.

That's not how it works. DPS builds dont have constant dps all the time, the dps is spread out on big bursts and dps drops. 2 weaver builds that were spread out by only a few seconds had huge dps difference because one rotation finished at it's lowest drop while other one was in the middle of it's burst. 4 mil golem doesnt give you a realistic picture about general dps, it just serves as a standard because all dps builds can be tested under same conditions.

Yes, you are right. It is not the same diference as I wrote. To be fair I dont play weaver (or dps) and I dont know if those builds ended on burst or not so I used a statistical method. I made an assumption that those benchmarks end not right after burst and not right before burst.And If you look at the MO video, that weaver is still first in dps.I still stand by the fact that 18 percent more DPS is huge diference.

So to sumarise this conversationEles should do huge damage because it is squishy -> ele doesCore ele should do huge damage -> not the best but still decent numbersThe best ele builds are complicated for their advantage -> If a build has more skills then others and still only need to use a few to be at same dps then something is wrong.Full berserker gear is not playable -> I play itEle is squisy -> most enemies die before they touch him.

Hope I havent forgot anything

You're taling about perfect scenario with all possible boons applied +dmg modifier and food....against static non-attacking target, that's all nice and dandy for like 5% of the whole game, guess when it comes to golem smashing there is no better class than ele...for everything class...play an actual class

Eles should do huge damage because it is squishy --> ele doesn't by a long shot and if it manage to top some golem smashing benchmark it's because it gave every single point in dmg still requiring perfect timing and precision ...why players should do all that when they can use a dragonhunter in total relax mode while losing few thousand point dmg?

Seen as top raid guilds complete raids without using a single weaver...I dunno why this obnoxious obession with top DPS when it's completely worthless in the grand scheme of things?

They nerfed greatly the dmg without actual compensation in sustain, added complexity for the sake of being complex...it's a no deal for me, ele will keep taking dust on character screen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Already send them some posts ago but just a number might not be enough so here are videos.

And just to be clear, all those videos are done only with boons and buffs that you actualy have in raid. Last ones are from LN, they dont use consumables in these videos but instead more buffs so the numbers should be similar.

Here is an actual boss kill. Just check if those boons ever drop if you dont belive me

And it is true that ele is a glass cannon. You can do huge damage but you also die quickly. In my opinion, going full damage is the way to go since there are more balanced classes that combine defense and damage. If you take more defense on ele, then something else will be better. I think that ele should go all in on the thing he does best, damage.

39 to 33 is only 18% more.How much more complicated or harder is the Condition Weaver rotation compared to one of the Power Soulbeast? And how much more squishy is the Condition Weaver compared to the Power Soulbeast?

18 percent is huge.And yes, you get more dps because it is harder to play. Is there a problem with this?

Lets say that a fight takes 3 minutes. Then that weaver deals 1080000 more damage.

That's not how it works. DPS builds dont have constant dps all the time, the dps is spread out on big bursts and dps drops. 2 weaver builds that were spread out by only a few seconds had huge dps difference because one rotation finished at it's lowest drop while other one was in the middle of it's burst. 4 mil golem doesnt give you a realistic picture about general dps, it just serves as a standard because all dps builds can be tested under same conditions.

Yes, you are right. It is not the same diference as I wrote. To be fair I dont play weaver (or dps) and I dont know if those builds ended on burst or not so I used a statistical method. I made an assumption that those benchmarks end not right after burst and not right before burst.And If you look at the MO video, that weaver is still first in dps.I still stand by the fact that 18 percent more DPS is huge diference.

So to sumarise this conversationEles should do huge damage because it is squishy -> ele doesCore ele should do huge damage -> not the best but still decent numbersThe best ele builds are complicated for their advantage -> If a build has more skills then others and still only need to use a few to be at same dps then something is wrong.Full berserker gear is not playable -> I play itEle is squisy -> most enemies die before they touch him.

Hope I havent forgot anything

You're taling about perfect scenario with all possible boons applied +dmg modifier and food....
against static non-attacking target
, that's all nice and dandy for like 5% of the whole game, guess when it comes to golem smashing there is no better class than ele...for everything class...play an actual class

Eles should do huge damage because it is squishy --> ele doesn't by a long shot and if it manage to top some golem smashing benchmark it's because it gave every single point in dmg still requiring perfect timing and precision ...why players should do all that when they can use a dragonhunter in total relax mode while losing few thousand point dmg?

Seen as top raid guilds complete raids without using a single weaver...I dunno why this obnoxious obession with top DPS when it's completely worthless in the grand scheme of things?

They nerfed greatly the dmg without actual compensation in sustain, added complexity for the sake of being complex...it's a no deal for me, ele will keep taking dust on character screen

Aned states that ele is squishy with large damage... and it is.In reality other options are better, sometimes because of abusing 1 more slot in raids with dh, sometimes because actualy you can have only 1/5 of that damage and still oneshot everything in openworld.Sustain doesnt matter (and ele has better sustain then most dps classes) because with full dps gear everything dies before it gets to you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Every month we get one of these posts. It's ok, but honestly it does get old after awhile.

Weaver is really goodHas been really good in almost all regards since it was released with PoF.People will always come here to complain because they made a mistake in-game and died for it. But it's the game's fault.Or my favourite "they nerfed meteor shower/lava font" ---- both skills are still really good! They were OP before, now they're balanced

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:Weaver is really goodHas been really good in almost all regards since it was released with PoF.And people who prefer Core Elementalist or DPS Tempest, outside of that stale Air one-trick gimmick, get left in the dust.I don't think Weaver and Stale Air are even half the class, more one third or maybe two fifths.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:Weaver is really goodHas been really good in almost all regards since it was released with PoF.And people who prefer Core Elementalist or DPS Tempest, outside of that stale Air one-trick gimmick, get left in the dust.I don't think Weaver and Stale Air are even half the class, more one third or maybe two fifths.

You mean just like basicaly every core class, warrior without fast hands, dps druid, , dps scrapper and condition soulbeast without quickdraw to name a few

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:Weaver is really goodHas been really good in almost all regards since it was released with PoF.And people who prefer Core Elementalist or DPS Tempest, outside of that stale Air one-trick gimmick, get left in the dust.I don't think Weaver and Stale Air are even half the class, more one third or maybe two fifths.

Before I say anything please know that I'm referring to the OP's post.

why elementalists are so bad? why it's only class that have one less specs because you need to be attenued at the element to work? why i can't use staff like a real mage because it's so slow with high casts time and dmg is low?

Doesn't seem like any of that had anything to do with elite specs but still you raise a good point so I will address it anyway.

I agree that it would be nice if core ele and dps tempest could get a little more attention. I think DPS tempest is very possible with the right changes, I don't even think it would be that hard to implement - Tempest just needs easier access to +X%dmg uptime and a few more stacks of it.

Core ele with the right build is quite good right now for roaming/PvP as well. It's just difficult.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:18 percent is huge.And yes, you get more dps because it is harder to play. Is there a problem with this?

Lets say that a fight takes 3 minutes. Then that weaver deals 1080000 more damage.

No, it is not. If an enemy takes 10 hits to kill increasing damage by 18% reduces the amount of hits to 9. Maybe 8 if you deal burning or bleeding damage, too. But you also would have dealt that damage in the 10 hits scenario.

So 1-2 hits less. That is NOT a huge change. Even 25% more damage is not actually that great.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Kashrlyyk.5364 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:18 percent is huge.And yes, you get more dps because it is harder to play. Is there a problem with this?

Lets say that a fight takes 3 minutes. Then that weaver deals 1080000 more damage.

No, it is not. If an enemy takes 10 hits to kill increasing damage by 18% reduces the amount of hits to 9. Maybe 8 if you deal burning or bleeding damage, too. But you also would have dealt that damage in the 10 hits scenario.

So 1-2 hits less. That is NOT a huge change. Even 25% more damage is not actually that great.

Then you never did anything semi challanging in this game. There are times when every 100 dpscounts. I have seen fights that ended with a fail since we were missing few hundereds damage to skip certain mechanic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

S/W Tempest is okay for large hitboxes also from the playstyle and rota it doable and okay but it has still 2 flaws1.) the dps get down a lot over time2.) damage on small hitboxes is also small

Swordweaver and I will never be a friend of this built the rota is okay in compare to the other (older)builds .For me reason not to choose this are :1.) I saw countless other ele trying this build with the result they die more then any other member of our group. This including being the reason for full wipes in CMs from players with more then 200 Kp. Being 100% all the time melee as ele is insane . I only 3 players until now who really can play this build without laying on the ground all the time.2.) The more personal reason which I think many people has also a problem this isn't an ele I can choose reaper and feel more like an ele then with this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Arkantos.7460 said:i remember since that esport thing and there were 2 grps against each other with ONLY ELES... i bet since that day ele has fkt up

well actually it has been years since ele wasn't something except for that specific staff glass canon . Other than dps , it provides anything else and wasn't replace cause too few dps could bring something else back to these days. (in WvW it has static field that was nice tho for swiftness back to the blasting zone meta)

but then classes such as engineer and warrior brought stats buff for all the party ! and you start to see ele's reputation decreasing slowly ...

My point is : ele has been must pick only in pve for years since celestial has been nerfed/removed. Ele has been nerfed times and times cause of that stat and the only viable thing that stayed alive after that nerf hammer was staff glass canon in pve Only. Nothing incredible in WvW nor in PvP.

Sure you could find some gimmick surging (such as support tempest and core fresh air in pvp) but nothing as strong (or usefull) than the classic classes. And I know... i've been there in pvp trying to play my ele.

Ele being stuck to a pure dps meter and not being usefull for anything else than provide a huge lot of regeneration is really frustrating . It lasts since 2014. Condi sword weaver was a bit of a relief but they need to make more effort with ele right now (ofc that just implies my opinion here)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...