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Please Anet talk us about the Death Magic Rework


NecroSummonsMors.7816

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@Exzen.2976 said:Excited and nervous about this rework. I use Death Magic in WvW on Reaper and think it’s massively underrated. Please don’t ruin Unholy Sanctuary!

For me I'd say, remove unholy sanctuary. Most useless trait in the whole traitline

Just because you can’t work out how to use it and get the best out of it, doesn’t mean it’s useless. It allows you to use shroud on reaper as a gap closer/escape mid combat without fear of being locked out of shroud and being a free kill. It means you can leave shroud early without fear of wasting life force, in the knowledge that if you take lethal damage, you will revert back to it. It allows you to bait other players into thinking you’re a free kill and then smash them when they over commit and unholy sanctuary procs. It’s a great trait. Anyone talking about it meaning you use shroud as defense only has completely missed the point.

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@Exzen.2976 said:

@Exzen.2976 said:Excited and nervous about this rework. I use Death Magic in WvW on Reaper and think it’s massively underrated. Please don’t ruin Unholy Sanctuary!

For me I'd say, remove unholy sanctuary. Most useless trait in the whole traitline

Just because you can’t work out how to use it and get the best out of it, doesn’t mean it’s useless. It allows you to use shroud on reaper as a gap closer/escape mid combat without fear of being locked out of shroud and being a free kill. It means you can leave shroud early without fear of wasting life force, in the knowledge that if you take lethal damage, you will revert back to it. It allows you to bait other players into thinking you’re a free kill and then smash them when they over commit and unholy sanctuary procs. It’s a great trait. Anyone talking about it meaning you use shroud as defense only has completely missed the point.

If i remember correctly, in d3 traits like this one are called noob traits.Describes it pretty good.A trait for players that arent as good as other players

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:You guys realize with a deathmagic rework minions will also need a rework, since they are the skills tied to death-magic.

Not really. The trait aren't actually transformative of what the minions do so there would be no real reason to rework them.

They are horrible, plenty of reason to rework them. Make them have impact, Id rather have minions that had use than the ones we have now which are just a joke. the only two I can think of that are really useful are flesh wurm and flesh golem.

Necromancer's minions are neither bad nor good, they are just plain boring. Also, Shadow fiend is useful in PvE raid due to it's 10% LF on active skill and Blood fiend is "OK" as a minion, being equivalent to warrior's healing signet with the disadvantage of being a killable and the advantage of doing a tiny bit of extra damage. The main issue is that minions just aren't defensive skills, even with all 5 traits that boost them, at the very best you can see tham as clumsy sustain skills.

I'll never stress it out enough but if ANet want to dedicate 5 traits to minions, minions have to be a main feature of the main mechanism. In short, to justify that many traits, we'd better have shroud skills vomit minions and not being struck with the necessity to slot minions on utility skills.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:You guys realize with a deathmagic rework minions will also need a rework, since they are the skills tied to death-magic.

Not really. The trait aren't actually transformative of what the minions do so there would be no real reason to rework them.

They are horrible, plenty of reason to rework them. Make them have impact, Id rather have minions that had use than the ones we have now which are just a joke. the only two I can think of that are really useful are flesh wurm and flesh golem.

Necromancer's minions are neither bad nor good, they are just plain boring. Also,
Shadow fiend
is useful in PvE raid due to it's 10% LF on active skill and
Blood fiend
is "OK" as a minion, being equivalent to warrior's healing signet with the disadvantage of being a killable and the advantage of doing a tiny bit of extra damage. The main issue is that minions just aren't defensive skills, even with all 5 traits that boost them, at the very best you can see tham as clumsy sustain skills.

I'll never stress it out enough but if ANet want to dedicate 5 traits to minions, minions have to be a main feature of the main mechanism. In short, to justify that many traits, we'd better have shroud skills vomit minions and not being struck with the necessity to slot minions on utility skills.

They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

I've to admit I'd really like the idea of death magic making minions passively spawn through traits when you use death maigc that would improve a lot the minionmancer capabilities, ofc a full mionion overhaul should be done.But as a hardcore player of core necro I just really dislike your idea of making it minion based. I think core necro shroud has really it's role has ranged hybrid damager and should not be touched and should remain this way, maybe improve casting times on auto attack and make dark path decent again.

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@Exzen.2976 said:Excited and nervous about this rework. I use Death Magic in WvW on Reaper and think it’s massively underrated. Please don’t ruin Unholy Sanctuary!

For me I'd say, remove unholy sanctuary. Most useless trait in the whole traitline

Just because you can’t work out how to use it and get the best out of it, doesn’t mean it’s useless. It allows you to use shroud on reaper as a gap closer/escape mid combat without fear of being locked out of shroud and being a free kill. It means you can leave shroud early without fear of wasting life force, in the knowledge that if you take lethal damage, you will revert back to it. It allows you to bait other players into thinking you’re a free kill and then smash them when they over commit and unholy sanctuary procs. It’s a great trait. Anyone talking about it meaning you use shroud as defense only has completely missed the point.

If i remember correctly, in d3 traits like this one are called noob traits.Describes it pretty good.A trait for players that arent as good as other players

Wow. Great argument.

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@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:

They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

I've to admit I'd really like the idea of death magic making minions passively spawn through traits when you use death maigc that would improve a lot the minionmancer capabilities, ofc a full mionion overhaul should be done.But as a hardcore player of core necro I just really dislike your idea of making it minion based. I think core necro shroud has really it's role has ranged hybrid damager and should not be touched and should remain this way, maybe improve casting times on auto attack and make dark path decent again.

To be fair I Feel like we should have one weapon/weapon combo built around minions. Death-magic a tratline, and one or two skills in shroud that "Passively" on use create minions. I don't want it strictly minion focused just have more of the ability to focus on minions with cool abilities, more bone-mancer and minionmancer abilities that are both fun to use and fun to see. The reason I hardly play my necromancer is because the play-style I like is complete trash, and not very fun to use once so ever... Id also want new models(Cooler minions) but I digress. Trust me I don't want a focus on minions fully, Id love to have our curse-mancer from guild wars 1 back or even our blood-mage or interrupt-mancer back...

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@"Thornwolf.9721" said:They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.

Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:I'll never stress it out enough but if ANet want to dedicate 5 traits to minions, minions have to be a main feature of the main mechanism. In short, to justify that many traits, we'd better have shroud skills vomit minions and not being struck with the necessity to slot minions on utility skills.

I count 3 traits that are dedicated to minions and two more that benefit, but in no way require or are dedicated to them.

Of the 3 dedicated traits, 2 of them are at least worth being traits rather than baselined: Necromantic Corruption (at least the condition transfer part) and Death Nova. Losing Flesh of the Master entirely and getting the health increase baselined is fine. Getting the damage of Necromantic Corruption baselined is fine.

However, as much as I would love to have just one minion trait, the condition transfer does seem to be a little much to roll in with Death Nova (neither effect of which I am willing to do away with entirely). Then again, looking at Quick Breathing on Warrior...

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:I'll never stress it out enough but if ANet want to dedicate 5 traits to minions, minions have to be a main feature of the main mechanism. In short, to justify that many traits, we'd better have shroud skills vomit minions and not being struck with the necessity to slot minions on utility skills.

I count 3 traits that are dedicated to minions and two more that benefit, but in no way require or are dedicated to them.

I'd agree that
beyond the veil
isn't exactly dedicated to them, but
vampiric
still see it's efficiency shot throught the roof when you take minions. There is barely any difference between
flesh of the master
and
vampiric
.

Of the 3 dedicated traits, 2 of them are at least worth being traits rather than baselined: Necromantic Corruption (at least the condition transfer part) and Death Nova. Losing Flesh of the Master entirely and getting the health increase baselined is fine. Getting the damage of Necromantic Corruption baselined is fine.

However, as much as I would love to have just one minion trait, the condition transfer does seem to be a little much to roll in with Death Nova (neither effect of which I am willing to do away with entirely). Then again, looking at Quick Breathing on Warrior...

Those traits are to passive. None make use of minion's active skills. I'd rather see death nova removed from the traitline and fused into bon minion's putrid explosion than see it remaining as a trait. Change Necromantic Corruption so that it still draw conditions automatically on minions but you need to use minion's active skills to send back the conditions on foes and then you got a true minion trait.

That's not many change but it already open 2 traits on DM by getting rid of flesh of the master and death nova. Tweak beyond the veil so that instead of giving prot to minions it give it to nearby allies and we are already done to 2 minions traits accross the traitlines. Remove minion's life siphon from vampiric and increase personnal life siphon value and we end up in a better state free of the minion's domination (and I could careless that minion master's afk farming no longer work after this).

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.

Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.

While true scourage wouldn't take death magic, Reaper might and paired with "Rise!" It could be good. I don't feel like its a big deal its only something that takes place if you have the trait-line active which even if it does get changed not everyone will use it. Don't like it, don't use it is the name of this game and if you don't like a change you switch classes. A-net doesn't care, they are like digital honey badgers....

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I just hope they don't ruin the non minion traits Ive been using them lately in wvw it really helps vs 1 shot deadeyes etc I dont exactly run tank necro My armor is like 350+ death magic has really helped but at the same time the loss of damage sucks. If they could make deadly strength stack with all sources of armor and toughness that would be huge. Death magic needs steroid boost is fine it just needs more sustain so you feel more like the play style you are trying to gain since that was promised with reaper. Warriors deffence line gives them ways to heal and also warriors tactics and power line gives them a way to heal. Necro does the same it just needs to be buffed unholy sanctuary should heal for more. Now on to minions im not sure way to say about them lol

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@Morde.3158 said:I just hope they don't ruin the non minion traits Ive been using them lately in wvw it really helps vs 1 shot deadeyes etc I dont exactly run tank necro My armor is like 350+ death magic has really helped but at the same time the loss of damage sucks. If they could make deadly strength stack with all sources of armor and toughness that would be huge. Death magic needs steroid boost is fine it just needs more sustain so you feel more like the play style you are trying to gain since that was promised with reaper. Warriors deffence line gives them ways to heal and also warriors tactics and power line gives them a way to heal. Necro does the same it just needs to be buffed unholy sanctuary should heal for more. Now on to minions im not sure way to say about them lol

Just play death magic 223 with antitoxin runes and you are already a tank. Mix im some trailblazer, viper armor and trinkets and you are set to 1vX.

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@XECOR.2814 said:

@Morde.3158 said:I just hope they don't ruin the non minion traits Ive been using them lately in wvw it really helps vs 1 shot deadeyes etc I dont exactly run tank necro My armor is like 350+ death magic has really helped but at the same time the loss of damage sucks. If they could make deadly strength stack with all sources of armor and toughness that would be huge. Death magic needs steroid boost is fine it just needs more sustain so you feel more like the play style you are trying to gain since that was promised with reaper. Warriors deffence line gives them ways to heal and also warriors tactics and power line gives them a way to heal. Necro does the same it just needs to be buffed unholy sanctuary should heal for more. Now on to minions im not sure way to say about them lol

Just play death magic 223 with antitoxin runes and you are already a tank. Mix im some trailblazer, viper armor and trinkets and you are set to 1vX.

Nice but Im a power main the most I will play is just a little bit of condi lol

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@Morde.3158 said:

@Morde.3158 said:I just hope they don't ruin the non minion traits Ive been using them lately in wvw it really helps vs 1 shot deadeyes etc I dont exactly run tank necro My armor is like 350+ death magic has really helped but at the same time the loss of damage sucks. If they could make deadly strength stack with all sources of armor and toughness that would be huge. Death magic needs steroid boost is fine it just needs more sustain so you feel more like the play style you are trying to gain since that was promised with reaper. Warriors deffence line gives them ways to heal and also warriors tactics and power line gives them a way to heal. Necro does the same it just needs to be buffed unholy sanctuary should heal for more. Now on to minions im not sure way to say about them lol

Just play death magic 223 with antitoxin runes and you are already a tank. Mix im some trailblazer, viper armor and trinkets and you are set to 1vX.

Nice but Im a power main the most I will play is just a little bit of condi lol

You can do the same on power. Just take spite and soul reaping with death magic and anti toxin.

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@XECOR.2814 said:

@Morde.3158 said:I just hope they don't ruin the non minion traits Ive been using them lately in wvw it really helps vs 1 shot deadeyes etc I dont exactly run tank necro My armor is like 350+ death magic has really helped but at the same time the loss of damage sucks. If they could make deadly strength stack with all sources of armor and toughness that would be huge. Death magic needs steroid boost is fine it just needs more sustain so you feel more like the play style you are trying to gain since that was promised with reaper. Warriors deffence line gives them ways to heal and also warriors tactics and power line gives them a way to heal. Necro does the same it just needs to be buffed unholy sanctuary should heal for more. Now on to minions im not sure way to say about them lol

Just play death magic 223 with antitoxin runes and you are already a tank. Mix im some trailblazer, viper armor and trinkets and you are set to 1vX.

This is my setup as well. Glad too see I’m not the only one that utilizes the synergy between shrouded removal and anti toxin. It’s a crazy awesome and super under utilized synergy.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:Death magic rework? Let's brace ourself for the worst. I can already imagine:

We've been thinking about death magic for a long time already and seen that the traitline wasn't up to work for the necromancer's defence. We've decided to make the defensive aspect of the shroud less awkward opening way for specializing in defense.
  • Soul comprehension
    is now replaced by
    lich's mantle
    .
    Lich's mantle:
    reduce all damage by 50% while in shroud.
  • Shroud no longer naturally mitigate damage by 50%, you need to to take Death magic for that.
  • Putrid defense
    now reduce damage taken by 1% per different condition on the attacker.
  • Armored shroud
    now also grant 90 point of toughness while out of shroud.

Scarry, right? That's the worst I'm bracing myself for at the moment.

i would probably never set foot in pvp as necro ever again lol

Makes core and reaper unviable without deathmagic so its a loss of damage no matter which line you trade for it only go gain basically what we had at base which is already subpar lol

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.

Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.

While true scourage wouldn't take death magic, Reaper might and paired with "Rise!" It could be good. I don't feel like its a big deal its only something that takes place if you have the trait-line active which even if it does get changed not everyone will use it. Don't like it, don't use it is the name of this game and if you don't like a change you switch classes. A-net doesn't care, they are like digital honey badgers....

The only way reaper will take death magic is if death magic basically adds greatly to sustain in exchange for the loss of damage.

Right now reaper sustains by having kinda threatening ish damage in shroud. A slow reaper with low damage is not a threat right now in the meta. You just run right over it or ignore it.

The some ideal things death magic needs in exchange for the damage the user looses by taking itGood condi clear, conversion, or xfer for damaging condies onlyGrandmaster healing in shroud needs to be addressed in death magic. Either make the grand master good or make the grand master allow other traits that normally do not heal in shroud work so that they do heal in shroud.Some minion traits need to be moved baseline (the one for more hp and damage on the minions should be baseline)

Possibly flop some traits around from other lines that are better fitting in a defensive line (foot in the grave for example) would be a good master or grand master minor for death magic line (for its current level of strength has no chance of competing in its current state as a grand master option in soul reaping)

IF anet pulls a 1 step forward and 2 steps back with death magic by cutting base line things and forcing them into this line then its going to make necro even more of a mess. This is something they really should be looking to get feedback on.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Morde.3158 said:I just hope they don't ruin the non minion traits Ive been using them lately in wvw it really helps vs 1 shot deadeyes etc I dont exactly run tank necro My armor is like 350+ death magic has really helped but at the same time the loss of damage sucks. If they could make deadly strength stack with all sources of armor and toughness that would be huge. Death magic needs steroid boost is fine it just needs more sustain so you feel more like the play style you are trying to gain since that was promised with reaper. Warriors deffence line gives them ways to heal and also warriors tactics and power line gives them a way to heal. Necro does the same it just needs to be buffed unholy sanctuary should heal for more. Now on to minions im not sure way to say about them lol

Just play death magic 223 with antitoxin runes and you are already a tank. Mix im some trailblazer, viper armor and trinkets and you are set to 1vX.

This is my setup as well. Glad too see I’m not the only one that utilizes the synergy between shrouded removal and anti toxin. It’s a crazy awesome and super under utilized synergy.

Im worried about this build in death magic rework. I hope they dont nerf the 223 combination.

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the old death magic was better rending shroud was so fun the long somone commits to you the more vulnerability applied to them and deadly strength was free. I'm a Necro main I just hope they dont ruin stuff that does not need to be ruined like they always do. Man they are about to remove 50% damage reduction from shroud this is about to hurt wvw power builds please don't do this lol

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@Morde.3158 said:the old death magic was better rending shroud was so fun the long somone commits to you the more vulnerability applied to them and deadly strength was free. I'm a Necro main I just hope they dont ruin stuff that does not need to be ruined like they always do. Man they are about to remove 50% damage reduction from shroud this is about to hurt wvw power builds please don't do this lol

Im almost positive if they pigeon toe that into death magic and remove it from both base and reaper shroud they would be un usable in pvp and wvw. it will also hurt pve necros as well. if they did that they would literally have to make it so that life force basically did not drain naturally at all while in shroud and that shroud up time would now be determined by the amount of incoming damage you took.

The things we should hope for.

Less (on death) traits.Less traits that only trigger on death or effect things that happen on death as when something dies the fighting is usually over and the benefit is not really a benefit the only exception area to this is maybe wvw but still. Most of the traits at the moment that deal with something happening on death need to be changed into something that happens while in combat. On death traits have mostly 0 purpose through the corse of a fight.

More true sustainFix the healing grandmaster to actually heal a respectable amount at default and a greater amount when healing power is invested.Have condi removal traits target damaging condis only. We already have speed of shadows as a trait for removing movement impairments no need to double down.Increase life force gain via skills or naturally over time rather than (on death)Stability, Stability, STABILITY!

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.

Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.

While true scourage wouldn't take death magic, Reaper might and paired with "Rise!" It could be good. I don't feel like its a big deal its only something that takes place if you have the trait-line active which even if it does get changed not everyone will use it. Don't like it, don't use it is the name of this game and if you don't like a change you switch classes. A-net doesn't care, they are like digital honey badgers....

The only way reaper will take death magic is if death magic basically adds greatly to sustain in exchange for the loss of damage.

Right now reaper sustains by having kinda threatening ish damage in shroud. A slow reaper with low damage is not a threat right now in the meta. You just run right over it or ignore it.

The some ideal things death magic needs in exchange for the damage the user looses by taking itGood condi clear, conversion, or xfer for damaging condies onlyGrandmaster healing in shroud needs to be addressed in death magic. Either make the grand master good or make the grand master allow other traits that normally do not heal in shroud work so that they do heal in shroud.Some minion traits need to be moved baseline (the one for more hp and damage on the minions should be baseline)

Possibly flop some traits around from other lines that are better fitting in a defensive line (foot in the grave for example) would be a good master or grand master minor for death magic line (for its current level of strength has no chance of competing in its current state as a grand master option in soul reaping)

IF anet pulls a 1 step forward and 2 steps back with death magic by cutting base line things and forcing them into this line then its going to make necro even more of a mess. This is something they really should be looking to get feedback on.

If ele can have dmg in sustain why can-t we have some sustain without sacrificing too much dmg? seems only fair I know eles in pve need that sustain to survive because they are very squishy but we need some sustain to be able to continue to do dmg and having to sacrifice a lot of dmg to be sustainable isn't a viable choice.

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