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The sustain of Holosmith is nuts....it's just broken


Arheundel.6451

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@alain.1659 said:How? I mean really how? I have met my share of good holosmiths but their skill lvl was higher then me. They wouldve won with any other profession. I have slain my share of holos too and they are not that horrible really. According to the forums every profession is OP and needs immediate and harsh nerfs. And people give tournament champs as an example when majority of the players do not see even gold. It is impossible to debate on a class in this forum meta.

I don't agree. There are builds that stand above others and are considered OP for a reason.

One class (particular build) should not be able to:

  • deal crazy damage
  • have crazy sustain
  • have crazy utility
  • have a whole set of boons on demand
  • have access to strong CC
  • have invulnerability

all at once and on its own.

It's never going to be a good design. Sure, Engi at its core is a hybrid class and should be jack-of-all-trades, master of none.

Every build must have a weakness.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:About engi....
the only hard nerf was the removal of passive Elixir S
and a slap on the wrist with corona blast stability trait....let's not consider the "removal" of rifle shooting without LoS as nerfs...other professions got that treatment several years ago ( like ele phoenix or comet ).

We are here today because everybody else got hard nerfed already and engi got left out and
my thought is because it doesn't seem to be very popular in pve raids or general open world
, so the devs drag their feet with engi when it comes to nerfs

Your first mistake was looking at it by each profession as a whole. Second mistake was purposefully leaving out that Engi(Scrapper) had Rapid Regeneration, Adaptive Armor, Perfectly Weighted, Recovery Matrix, F5 skill all functionally deleted in favor of things that have much less sustain and utility. You went through every spec that recently got gutted, but I'm guessing Scrapper didn't make your thorough list of nerfs every profession has gotten cause' it didn't fit your narrative that ArenaNet purposefully let's Engineers fall under the radar. It's in the same boat that Druid is. Keep the discussion to Holo specifically and you won't look as biased

Some number nerfing on Heat therapy won't magically cause a drop of Holo from OP to UP state and we both know that....We first nerf the overperforming specs and then we keep going with the conversation which by the way would require all parties involved to have working knowledge of all other classes and the conditions under which they operate, that does not seem to be the case now...unless you want to tell us why other specs should be nerfed

So I have to admit I'm disappointed you summarized all suggestions to balance holo as just magical heat therapy changes. That's just flat out wrong

Changes slated to happen:
  • 20% Less damage on corona burst
  • 300 Less radius on Holo Shockwave

My extended suggestions ITT alone
  • Exit Photon Forge no longer counting as a Toolbelt
  • Quickness no longer affecting wind up of corona burst
  • Elixir U cooldown nerfed
  • Heat Therapy reduced ranging from shaved to gutted, you can affect Holos performance drastically from a hard nerf to this trait, most plebs don't realize venting a bar of heat by dodges or waiting is equivalent to a healing skill.. Maybe making heat therapy only function well with high healing stat, just an idea.

You mentioned yourself your goalpost is to take Holo from OP to UP. Seeing as that would make every Engi spec underpowered in PvP, maybe consider aiming for balance instead of whack a mole

Nowhere in my OP I stated what you claim...what benefit would I get from seeing another class reduced from OP to UP? With all said and done, a strong reduction on quickness access would be more than welcome and possibly would be enough to reduce holo efficiency.

Although do remember that these changes would in no way require nerfs to other classes : shaves are not hard nerfs and these changes if applied would not stop Holo from performing its intended role of brawler/side node . Holo would still maintain its mobility, above average sustain and dmg....what more could you possibly want that could not be achieved eitherway?

A build that can outrun a thief while mass healing the whole team, while stealthing, aoe cc in a large area, stealth, burst....deserve no nerf threads? ...kk Can we have the same thing on other professions then? Make stealth access available to all classes on top of that

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@Alatar.7364 said:

@"H a z Z y.1762" said:Played holo for a week to learn it. Now i just harrass them with condi thief and they're far from OP in my games =)

Not sure if
"I took one cheese
and a hard counter
against other cheese so it's not OP"
should be a valid statement.

Given Anet's current balancing strategy i'd say yes: meta builds are just ridiculously strong at certain things any everything seems to revolve around counters. The meta builds are meta because they have fewer counters than everyone else.

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Range decrease on HSW and decrease in dps of Corona lmao yeah that will do it easily. Not like the class still has short CD in forge, too much cc, damage, mix of top notch melee and range, invisibility, insane healing, block, invulnerability etc etc. The class will still be crazy powercrept, wouldn't be surprised if the rolled out couple changes to scrapper and or scourge that in some way makes them broken op, or the changes will end up not being enough to change much lol. Dh bow or in general get nothing, druid is bland and half a spec now only used in fractals for healing mostly lol great design for a spec that could have been so much more. No real changes to fb to change the boring kitten bobbing mess in wvw and scourge changes as well will change nothing. Seems like 1/4 or more traits in every traitline are so underpowered and never used compared to either ok traits or OP traits that are always used in every build. Man just goes on. Sure they've made some attempts but their so small and infrequent.Take a look at eso forums they have soo much more activity going g on and ofcourse balance isnt great their either but their big balance patches are just that- big. They change the metas frequently and one meta melee is king another magic ir it could be dot dps like it is now. Classes that were just ok can end up great and vice versa no one wants there class to sink but it's better than the same few specs using the same few builds over and over for yrs. Both wow and eso have a inferior combat system compared to gw2 yet the population in both those games pvp scene are far higher,why is that? Lol

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@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@alain.1659 said:How? I mean really how? I have met my share of good holosmiths but their skill lvl was higher then me. They wouldve won with any other profession. I have slain my share of holos too and they are not that horrible really. According to the forums every profession is OP and needs immediate and harsh nerfs. And people give tournament champs as an example when majority of the players do not see even gold. It is impossible to debate on a class in this forum meta.

I don't agree. There are builds that stand above others and are considered OP for a reason.

One class (particular build)
should not
be able to:
  • deal crazy damage
  • have crazy sustain
  • have crazy utility
  • have a whole set of boons on demand
  • have access to strong CC
  • have invulnerability

all at once and on its own.

It's never going to be a good design. Sure, Engi at its core is a hybrid class and should be
jack-of-all-trades, master of none
.

Every build
must have a weakness
.

But every engi build does. That's what boggles me about this thread.

  • The rifle variant is very susceptible to condi damage, corruption, and CC. A good scourge can ruin this holo's day.
  • The prot variant is very susceptible to CC and spike damage. It also has poor escape and chase potential. A spike rev can ruin this holo's day.

The problem is when you try to yolo the yolosmith, you get yolo'ed first. Try playing holo, or watching two holos fight. They engage each other in a way to exploit each other's weaknesses, presuming they both know what they're doing.

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@knite.1542 said:

@rwolf.9571 said:Had a afk Holo on point once. Had my GS glass burst mes auto on him. Instant barrier for days. As if I was tickling him with a feather.

Although I agree that Holo sustain is high, this is probably more of an issue on your end in this specific case.

passives are needed in this game(or it will end being a first one who hits firts won the combat, and all know what that mean in a game with stealth) but not at that extend that make a afk character hard to kill unless you blow up your cds as if you attack a active player.

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The stealth on elixir would solve a lot of problems as well. I think they have enough disencages, regen, blocks, cc, and everything else without some stealth that lasts entirely too long to begin with allowing them to reset their cooldowns or set up their "burst" which is basically just every other ability.

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@crepuscular.9047 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:weavers are worse than holos when it comes to sustain and mobility, can easily jump into a fight with 3 bruts and run away if things doesnt look to go too well

Wrong, Weaver gets popped by any and all thieves, any form of shatter mesmer, meta herald, Spellbreaker (or warrior in all forms) , Ranger, high dps guardians, reapers.

Anything that does any form of high power breaks Weaver in two as soon as those dodges and evades. Best part is, is they can't evade as much as DD, so they still are mediocre. Also they have maybe one stability ability that is also bugged. So, no, they are not 'worse'.

0/10 bait.

very much depending on the player, the build they run, the skills of the opposing players

if you are talking about plat or above, sure the burst classes may kill them on 1v1

but if you are talking about under plat, the majority of the time weaver will not have issue winning 1v1 against burst classes; i believe the flavour the of the month is to jump into mid node fight with obsidian flesh, pump out lots of barrier, kill a guys or two and riptide out

don't get me wrong, i do love playing weaver because it's an extremely fun class to play for me, but I do find their sustain to be slightly over tuned, Anet just need to bring things down by 5-10% so it can become a high risk high reward class like power revs

They are not meant to be high risk, high reward???

Nani??? They are a side node bunker class?? Huh?? You gonna give Weaver the scrapper treatment by forcing them to go damage like they did scrapper??

You do not give one spec the treatment of a role they CLEARLY are not meant for.

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@Lighter.5631 said:Why are you shifting attention away from condition mesmer

I mean, holos can easily disorient condition mesmers. Sure, I wouldn't advise them to duel or anything, but in a team fight against a condi mes.. having a holo to spam away the clones and dish out that sweet cc and those water fields, as long as your team isn't completely hopeless you've got a pretty good chance of at very least running that mirage's ability to help out their team.

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@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@Lighter.5631 said:Why are you shifting attention away from condition mesmer

I mean, holos can easily disorient condition mesmers. Sure, I wouldn't advise them to duel or anything, but in a team fight against a condi mes.. having a holo to spam away the clones and dish out that sweet cc and those water fields, as long as your team isn't completely hopeless you've got a pretty good chance of at very least running that mirage's ability to help out their team.

then why are you shifting attention away from poison thief

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@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:weavers are worse than holos when it comes to sustain and mobility, can easily jump into a fight with 3 bruts and run away if things doesnt look to go too well

Wrong, Weaver gets popped by any and all thieves, any form of shatter mesmer, meta herald, Spellbreaker (or warrior in all forms) , Ranger, high dps guardians, reapers.

Anything that does any form of high power breaks Weaver in two as soon as those dodges and evades. Best part is, is they can't evade as much as DD, so they still are mediocre. Also they have maybe one stability ability that is also bugged. So, no, they are not 'worse'.

0/10 bait.

Holos are better weavers. Thats just it. Bigger range of attacks, better animations (without being locked in them, can better fake em), bigger damage, better heal without depending on healing power etc. It "outplays" weaver in almost every way. Also, its one of Weaver hard counters.

As one of weaver duelers, I dont agree with your statement (talking about sw/d, not sw/fc). Vs teefs its favourable mu, just predict and dodge in time. Shatter depends how the mezmer plays on distance, but Id say its even chances. Herald if kiting well is favoured, but its quite possible beating even best ones. Spellbroken is rather stalemate, berzerker has no chances if you wont kitten your dodges, core hits hard and I think he's favoured here, but still doable or at least stalemate. Ranger after nerfs is favoured for you or stalemate if he went too far in defenses. Guardians...really? Reapers, if you predict and properly outplay there shouldn't be much issues, versus best ones I won like 3:1, doable for both sides.

Ofc high burst is painful for weavers to deal with, but if he doesnt oneshot you then you can heal pretty quickly and restart the fight you were not expecting at the beginning. Thats why situation where at least two high burst builds "gank" Weaver is very dangerous, one puts pressure in "damage holes" of the other one, and fight will most likely end in 10s after popping all defenses ^.^

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@Widmo.3186 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:weavers are worse than holos when it comes to sustain and mobility, can easily jump into a fight with 3 bruts and run away if things doesnt look to go too well

Wrong, Weaver gets popped by any and all thieves, any form of shatter mesmer, meta herald, Spellbreaker (or warrior in all forms) , Ranger, high dps guardians, reapers.

Anything that does any form of high power breaks Weaver in two as soon as those dodges and evades. Best part is, is they can't evade as much as DD, so they still are mediocre. Also they have maybe one stability ability that is also bugged. So, no, they are not 'worse'.

0/10 bait.

Holos are better weavers. Thats just it. Bigger range of attacks, better animations (without being locked in them, can better fake em), bigger damage, better heal without depending on healing power etc. It "outplays" weaver in almost every way. Also, its one of Weaver hard counters.

As one of weaver duelers, I dont agree with your statement (talking about sw/d, not sw/fc). Vs teefs its favourable mu, just predict and dodge in time. Shatter depends how the mezmer plays on distance, but Id say its even chances. Herald if kiting well is favoured, but its quite possible beating even best ones. Spellbroken is rather stalemate, berzerker has no chances if you wont kitten your dodges, core hits hard and I think he's favoured here, but still doable or at least stalemate. Ranger after nerfs is favoured for you or stalemate if he went too far in defenses. Guardians...really? Reapers, if you predict and properly outplay there shouldn't be much issues, versus best ones I won like 3:1, doable for both sides.

Ofc high burst is painful for weavers to deal with, but if he doesnt oneshot you then you can heal pretty quickly and restart the fight you were not expecting at the beginning. Thats why situation where at least two high burst builds "gank" Weaver is very dangerous, one puts pressure in "damage holes" of the other one, and fight will most likely end in 10s after popping all defenses ^.^

About guardians ( rare build )

1) Honour hybrid Firebrand axe/shield + GS or sword/focus can stalemate or kill the weaver, especially the fire weaver which lack optimal condi clear where the FB can pump up immobilize/blind/weakness/burn/cripple with ease thx to Mantra of Truth, they have more CC than you can escape from with Axe pull, tome F1 pull and taunt , finally shield knockback and tome F3 second taunt..all on quite short CD

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The only trouble I have as a Weaver are mesmers and warriors. Mesmers can kite for years and warriors have enough burst combined with CC to shut down your rotation.

If you play defensively though, you can stall any fight you like, even if you're not a bunker. But that would be counter productive in conquest cause the Meta has changed to +1's and controlling mid by high burst.

Theifs, necros, and guardians are quite easy to burst. All three of them die to one perfectly timed skill (primordial stance).

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@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@Lighter.5631 said:Why are you shifting attention away from condition mesmer

I mean, holos can easily disorient condition mesmers. Sure, I wouldn't advise them to duel or anything, but in a team fight against a condi mes.. having a holo to spam away the clones and dish out that sweet cc and those water fields, as long as your team isn't completely hopeless you've got a pretty good chance of at very least running that mirage's ability to help out their team.

why is condi mirage mentioned with teamfighting? any decent one avoids it like a plague. any even the worst of the worst firebrands makes condi mirage close to useless.

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