The sustain of Holosmith is nuts....it's just broken

[mortrialus.3062]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:I've been crossing my fingers about holo for almost 2 years now.

Crossing them again hoping...

Apparently you haven't read the last 2 years of patch notes, but you do you.

Similar to how mesmer saw tons and tons of nerfs across all aspects of the class and mirage still remains excellent,

Holosmith receiving piecemeal nerfs doesn't matter in the face of it being considered one of if not the single best class for ranked. When other classes get nerfs they suffer stuff like

"Full Counter: The damage applied by this skill in competitive modes has been reduced from 75% of PvE to 25% of PvE."

Or something like Mesmer's Confusing Images getting something like

"The physical damage of this skill has been split and reduced by 50% in PvP and WvW."

With other professions that are grossly overperforming Arenanet is more than happy to toss out literally 50%-75% damage nerfs at them.

Whereas with holosmiths, the only two serious serious nerfs the elite specialization ever suffered that actually hindered it's performance and shifted the outcome in certain fights in a noticable way was the Minesweeper nerf and the Auto Elixir S nerf. Normally when Holosmith gets nerfed it's stuff like;

Holo Leap which was originally capable of criting for 9k in SPvP on a 2 second cooldown getting nerfs like this

"Reduced damage by 17% in PvP only."

Holosmith's 2s cooldown 9k damage leap gets an extremely careful and minor 17% reduction so it only hits for 8k+ until 6 months later they very careful hit it with another "The damage of this skill has been reduced by 17% in PvP only."

You're right in that holosmith has been nerfed. Almost all of said nerfs are minor. Something like Blunderbuss respecting line of sight is not a noteworthy nerf. No longer being able to fire Net Shots in reverse is not a noteworthy nerf. Toss Elixir U no longer granting quickness is not a noteworthy nerf. Even Toolbelt Disable on Overheat is not a noteworthy nerf. These are all joke nerfs compared to what other classes have had.

And 2 years of joke nerfs to Holosmith compared to 2 years of very serious nerfs towards every other profession has left us in a meta where Holosmith is widely agreed to be the best build in ranked right now. You go watch someone like Vallun and see him game after game in platinum with 30%-60% holosmith representation. 40% Holosmith representation a frequent occurrence.

[Vagrant.7206]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:I've been crossing my fingers about holo for almost 2 years now.

Crossing them again hoping...

Apparently you haven't read the last 2 years of patch notes, but you do you.

Whereas Holosmith with holosmiths, the only two serious serious nerfs the elite specialization ever suffered that actually hindered it's performance and shifted the outcome in certain fights in a noticable way was the Minesweeper nerf and the Auto Elixir S nerf. Normally when Holosmith gets nerfed it's stuff like;

You're right in that holosmith has been nerfed. Almost all of said nerfs are minor. Something like Blunderbuss respecting line of sight is not a noteworthy nerf. No longer being able to fire Net Shots in reverse is not a noteworthy nerf. Toss Elixir U no longer granting quickness is not a noteworthy nerf. Even Toolbelt Disable on Overheat is not a noteworthy nerf. These are all joke nerfs compared to what other classes have had.

Forgetting a few things on your list?

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crystal_Configuration:_Eclipse - look at the nerfs on this puppy!
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corona_Burst - The might reduction is pretty substantial.
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectrum_Shield - Pretty major impact on this

Oh, and holographic shockwave is going to get its radius cut in half too (see the WvW notes). I'm actually in favor of that, always thought the radius was ridiculous.

And 2 years of joke nerfs to Holosmith compared to 2 years of very serious nerfs towards every other profession has left us in a meta where Holosmith is widely agreed to be the best build in ranked right now. You go watch someone like Vallun and see him game after game in platinum with 30%-60% holosmith representation. 40% Holosmith representation a frequent occurrence.

Look, I'm not saying that holosmith isn't powerful. Hell, I know it is. I win most duels, and I can generally influence teamfights in my favor.

As far as meta elite specs go in PvP, it's up there alongside scourge, mirage, and firebrand. But depending on the matchup, player skill, and terrain, it's difficult to claim it's particularly OP against those particular elite specs. It's definitely OP vs. the elite specs I didn't mention, but so are the ones I mentioned. A lot of the complaints I see amount to inexperience with how to deal with the class.

But you can't claim that holosmith hasn't seen serious nerfs when it has. That's either cherrypicking or ignorance.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:I feel Holo has to maybe blast finishers on to low of a cooldown. If they didn't have so many they wouldn't have so much healing.

Without the finishers on Photon Forge they would still be running around with the equivalent of almost 2x Healing Signet's in terms of passive healing from traits and a Healing Skill that provides 370 HPS when other similar fast acting healing skills provide about 220 HPS.

They would still have a a ridiculous amount of sustain and reset potential.

[Math.5123]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:I've been crossing my fingers about holo for almost 2 years now.

Crossing them again hoping...

Apparently you haven't read the last 2 years of patch notes, but you do you.

Similar to how mesmer saw tons and tons of nerfs across all aspects of the class and mirage still remains excellent,

Holosmith receiving piecemeal nerfs doesn't matter in the face of it being considered one of if not the single best class for ranked. When other classes get nerfs they suffer stuff like

"Full Counter: The damage applied by this skill in competitive modes has been reduced from 75% of PvE to 25% of PvE."

Or something like Mesmer's Confusing Images getting something like

"The physical damage of this skill has been split and reduced by 50% in PvP and WvW."

With other professions that are grossly overperforming Arenanet is more than happy to toss out literally 50%-66% damage nerfs at them.

Whereas Holosmith with holosmiths, the only two serious serious nerfs the elite specialization ever suffered that actually hindered it's performance and shifted the outcome in certain fights in a noticable way was the Minesweeper nerf and the Auto Elixir S nerf. Normally when Holosmith gets nerfed it's stuff like;

Holo Leap which was originally capable of criting for 9k in SPvP on a 2 second cooldown getting nerfs like this

"Reduced damage by 17% in PvP only."

Holosmith's 2s cooldown 9k damage leap gets an extremely careful and minor 17% reduction so it only hits for 8k+ until 6 months later they very careful hit it with another "The damage of this skill has been reduced by 17% in PvP only."

You're right in that holosmith has been nerfed. Almost all of said nerfs are minor. Something like Blunderbuss respecting line of sight is not a noteworthy nerf. No longer being able to fire Net Shots in reverse is not a noteworthy nerf. Toss Elixir U no longer granting quickness is not a noteworthy nerf. Even Toolbelt Disable on Overheat is not a noteworthy nerf. These are all joke nerfs compared to what other classes have had.

And 2 years of joke nerfs to Holosmith compared to 2 years of very serious nerfs towards every other profession has left us in a meta where Holosmith is widely agreed to be the best build in ranked right now. You go watch someone like Vallun and see him game after game in platinum with 30%-60% holosmith representation. 40% Holosmith representation a frequent occurrence.

Righteous instinct, effectiveness reduced by 50%.Glacial Hammer damage reduced by 90%.Smiters boon damage reduced by 50%.

This class was never even meta.

[praqtos.9035]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@H a z Z y.1762 said:In comparison to other classes:

I think holographic shockwave is on too low of a cd. I also think elixer U gives too many seconds of quickness and stability.

Edit: perhaps a fair nerf would be to decrease the cooldown on elixer u but also decrease the quickness and stab time.

That would be a buff, mate. Elixir U is also a stunbreak. Doing the opposite would actually be a nerf.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@praqtos.9035

Hyperbole, AWAYYYYY.

Seriously though, every time the subject of holo comes up, you chime in. Then I chime in. Then we circle around the same tired old arguments. You claim that holo hasn't seen any major nerfs. I point out several substantial nerfs to damage and sustain. You claim healing turret is the best heal in the game. I point out that Heat Therapy is the problem. You claim that "There's too much stability" and almost everyone points out that you can just avoid corona burst to prevent the majority of stability holo has access to (don't even need to dodge, just range or kite).

Can we just stop circling around the same tired arguments?You only pretend*.Its kinda ridiculous "we shouldnt nerf holo because year ago it had some nerfs", I had a good laugh.HT isnt the main issue, its part of it. HT alone wont stop them from spamming forge with low cds carelessly, the amount of passives to help them as well.I get that you want such nerf that wont affect real issues so it be OP still, pretty obvious, talking with such people is pointless, so I wont.

This is what we call "

moving the goalposts

." I pointed out several places where your anger was misguidedYou clearly took your points out of nowhere and pretend I "claimed" something that I didnt (but its common complaints and problems of holo), help me out, how does it called and which logicall fallacy it is ?I pointed out that "HT" nerf alone wont change almost anything, you are not worth to argue with, clearly biased, I'd rather talk to Chaith, he is aware that holo is broken and suggested really good changes. I'm done with you.

[Vagrant.7206]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@H a z Z y.1762 said:In comparison to other classes:

I think holographic shockwave is on too low of a cd. I also think elixer U gives too many seconds of quickness and stability.

Edit: perhaps a fair nerf would be to decrease the cooldown on elixer u but also decrease the quickness and stab time.

That would be a buff, mate. Elixir U is also a stunbreak. Doing the opposite would actually be a nerf.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@praqtos.9035

Hyperbole, AWAYYYYY.

Seriously though, every time the subject of holo comes up, you chime in. Then I chime in. Then we circle around the same tired old arguments. You claim that holo hasn't seen any major nerfs. I point out several substantial nerfs to damage and sustain. You claim healing turret is the best heal in the game. I point out that Heat Therapy is the problem. You claim that "There's too much stability" and almost everyone points out that you can just avoid corona burst to prevent the majority of stability holo has access to (don't even need to dodge, just range or kite).

Can we just stop circling around the same tired arguments?You only pretend*.Its kinda ridiculous "we shouldnt nerf holo because year ago it had some nerfs", I had a good laugh.HT isnt the main issue, its part of it. HT alone wont stop them from spamming forge with low cds carelessly, the amount of passives to help them as well.I get that you want such nerf that wont affect real issues so it be OP still, pretty obvious, talking with such people is pointless, so I wont.

This is what we call "

moving the goalposts

." I pointed out several places where your anger was misguidedYou clearly took your points out of nowhere and pretend I "claimed" something that I didnt (but its common complaints and problems of holo), help me out, how does it called and which logicall fallacy it is ?I pointed out that "HT" nerf alone wont change almost anything, you are not worth to argue with, clearly biased, I'd rather talk to Chaith, he is aware that holo is broken and suggested really good changes. I'm done with you.

I literally agree with all of Chaith's proposed changes too. I just think you're being unreasonable about certain things.

Also:

I (@Vagrant.7206) QUITE LITERALLY SAID:

@mortrialus.3062 said:And 2 years of joke nerfs to Holosmith compared to 2 years of very serious nerfs towards every other profession has left us in a meta where Holosmith is widely agreed to be the best build in ranked right now. You go watch someone like Vallun and see him game after game in platinum with 30%-60% holosmith representation. 40% Holosmith representation a frequent occurrence.

Look, I'm not saying that holosmith isn't powerful. Hell, I know it is. I win most duels, and I can generally influence teamfights in my favor.

As far as meta elite specs go in PvP, it's up there alongside scourge, mirage, and firebrand. But depending on the matchup, player skill, and terrain, it's difficult to claim it's particularly OP against those particular elite specs. It's definitely OP vs. the elite specs I didn't mention, but so are the ones I mentioned. A lot of the complaints I see amount to inexperience with how to deal with the class.

But you can't claim that holosmith hasn't seen serious nerfs when it has. That's either cherrypicking or ignorance.

[praqtos.9035]

@"Vagrant.7206" said:I literally agree with all of Chaith's proposed changes too. I just think you're being unreasonable about certain things.More than reasonable but whatever you think there, dont care.

But you can't claim that holosmith hasn't seen serious nerfs when it has. That's either cherrypicking or ignorance.Ignorance its to believe it had serious nerfs since the lay offs, it had only or 2 nerfs that I could call "serious", everything else is nothing worth mentioning/flag as "serious". I dont even understand why u clinging to it so hard, it was nerfed year ago so they should leave it alone for another year?

[Vagrant.7206]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:

But you can't claim that holosmith hasn't seen serious nerfs when it has. That's either cherrypicking or ignorance.Ignorance its to believe it had serious nerfs since the lay offs, it had only or 2 nerfs that I could call "serious", everything else is nothing worth mentioning/flag as "serious". I dont even understand why u clinging to it so hard, it was nerfed year ago so they should leave it alone for another year?

You could apply the same thing you said to chrono, mirage, scourge, or firebrand nerfs. Still doesn't make it less cherry-picking or ignorance.

[praqtos.9035]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

But you can't claim that holosmith hasn't seen serious nerfs when it has. That's either cherrypicking or ignorance.Ignorance its to believe it had serious nerfs since the lay offs, it had only or 2 nerfs that I could call "serious", everything else is nothing worth mentioning/flag as "serious". I dont even understand why u clinging to it so hard, it was nerfed year ago so they should leave it alone for another year?

You could apply the same thing you said to chrono, mirage, scourge, or firebrand nerfs. Still doesn't make it less cherry-picking or ignorance.Lost case... byebye

[shippage.1983]

Holo is insanely forgiving. You messed up a 1v1? Just stealth yourself, walk away, then healing turret + holo 5 and ur back to full health. Why can Holo full heal so easily while dealing insane amounts of damage, perma swiftness, and tons of stab. What are it's weaknesses again?

I just got out of a ranked game with 6 holos in it. It's just an easy class.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@shippage.1983 said:Holo is insanely forgiving. You messed up a 1v1? Just stealth yourself, walk away, then healing turret + holo 5 and ur back to full health. Why can Holo full heal so easily while dealing insane amounts of damage, perma swiftness, and tons of stab. What are it's weaknesses again?

I just got out of a ranked game with 6 holos in it. It's just an easy class.

Well I think the devs know how broken it is now, I mean the gotta right? LolHere's hoping they maybe hit it a bit harder with nerfs before patch release.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@Arheundel.6451 said:It's not the damage that I care, it's pointless to nerfing their dmg......their sustain is just bonker and for no healing power investment, that's what I consider absolutely unreal...how can a dev let a class heal so much while investing not even a single point in healing power? How can a holosmtih with a demolisher amulet heals for far more than a mender tempest ?

One spec supposed to be a bruiser...the other a support spec...why this design decisions? just why?

the No Trinity model backfires again

[Math.5123]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:It's not the damage that I care, it's pointless to nerfing their dmg......

their sustain is just bonker and for no healing power investment

, that's what I consider absolutely unreal...how can a dev let a class heal so much while investing not even a single point in healing power? How can a holosmtih with a

demolisher amulet

heals for far more than a

mender tempest

?

One spec supposed to be a bruiser...the other a support spec...why this design decisions? just why?

the No Trinity model backfires again

Holo is basically the Trinity.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:It's not the damage that I care, it's pointless to nerfing their dmg......

their sustain is just bonker and for no healing power investment

, that's what I consider absolutely unreal...how can a dev let a class heal so much while investing not even a single point in healing power? How can a holosmtih with a

demolisher amulet

heals for far more than a

mender tempest

?

One spec supposed to be a bruiser...the other a support spec...why this design decisions? just why?

the No Trinity model backfires again

Holo is basically the Trinity.

more like a Monotheism

[Iozeph.5617]

Just curious. Say they gutted holo tomorrow. Would any of you shut up? And if not, then what would be the next profession you'd beg for to be gutted, because by the tone of the threads in this sub forum whichever one becomes the top of the heap after holo is going to be the one most whinged over til it's also gutted.

The guy in the professions forums had it right. Just give everyone a stick and have done.

[Math.5123]

@Iozeph.5617 said:Just curious. Say they gutted holo tomorrow. Would any of you shut up? And if not, then what would be the next profession you'd beg for to be gutted, because by the tone of the threads in this sub forum whichever one becomes the top of the heap after holo is going to be the one most whinged over til it's also gutted.

The guy in the professions forums had it right. Just give everyone a stick and have done.

Holo, Condi thief, core ranger, spellbreaker, zeal fb. In that order

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

@"Iozeph.5617" said:Just curious. Say they gutted holo tomorrow. Would any of you shut up? And if not, then what would be the next profession you'd beg for to be gutted, because by the tone of the threads in this sub forum whichever one becomes the top of the heap after holo is going to be the one most whinged over til it's also gutted.

The guy in the professions forums had it right. Just give everyone a stick and have done.

The problem is that every single elite specialization from HoT and PoF are overpowered one way or another and need to be nerfed to the ground. Just because you don't see abudant amount of people running Dragonhunter, Berserker, Druid, Renegade or whatever, it doesn't mean these speces are "balanced" or "garbage", it just means they're overshadowed by much stronger options and that's all.People got used to this powercreep far too much and they'll defend it and if that specific spec will get nerfs, they'll jump on another unbalanced spec and the cycle will continue repeating itself...

[Stallic.2397]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:Just curious. Say they gutted holo tomorrow. Would any of you shut up? And if not, then what would be the next profession you'd beg for to be gutted, because by the tone of the threads in this sub forum whichever one becomes the top of the heap after holo is going to be the one most whinged over til it's also gutted.

The guy in the professions forums had it right. Just give everyone a stick and have done.

Holo, Condi thief, core ranger, spellbreaker, zeal fb. In that order

Nah, condi theif and spellbreaker will probably be next. FB is already getting nerfs. Scourge will be coming soon most likely. Then sadly Weaver ??. It will be a short run for them

[Widmo.3186]

@"Iozeph.5617" said:Just curious. Say they gutted holo tomorrow. Would any of you shut up? And if not, then what would be the next profession you'd beg for to be gutted, because by the tone of the threads in this sub forum whichever one becomes the top of the heap after holo is going to be the one most whinged over til it's also gutted.

The guy in the professions forums had it right. Just give everyone a stick and have done.

Right, people should just shut their mouths and be quiet. Everything is fine, balance is great, H***er did nothing wrong. Of course, some people over exaggerate whining about classes/builds that dont need to be nerfed and thats just l2p issues. But we've been saying that Holo is imba for ages, same as previously Mirage before its nerfs. And holo being op is not an opinion, thats a fact. Unfortunately it doesnt work like that when you create thread "Holo is op" with 200 comments, 80% of them agreeing with this statement and the very next balance update it gets nerfed. No, you need to do tons of threads, put persistent pressure and then maybe, m a y b e ANet will do sth about it.

[praqtos.9035]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:Just curious. Say they gutted holo tomorrow. Would any of you shut up? And if not, then what would be the next profession you'd beg for to be gutted, because by the tone of the threads in this sub forum whichever one becomes the top of the heap after holo is going to be the one most whinged over til it's also gutted.

The guy in the professions forums had it right. Just give everyone a stick and have done.

Holo, Condi thief, core ranger, spellbreaker, zeal fb. In that orderFire weaver and condi mirage are not in the list.. ?

[Iozeph.5617]

These threads are rarely about balance. They're more a matter of, "Get whatever stumbling block is in the way of dominating with the profession of my choice" sorts of affairs because once this happens most people keep their heads down and they DO shut up, hoping that whatever overblown mechanic they're personally riding to victory won't be taken out further down the road.

I'm not arguing against trimming down the holosmith. What I'm talking about is that there's a chain of causality that leads to where we are today. Where do you personally draw the line? How far are you willing to role back for the sake of balance? Was there ever a period where you felt most professions stood an even chance in competitive modes? Because as I mentioned before otherwise this is just peeling back the layers of the onion. It won't end with Holosmith because the majority here have proven they're incapable of stopping when it comes to crying for nerfs. The thread history here speaks to that.

So let's gut Holosmith. And next let's gut firebrand. Then let's gut Scourge, then let's gut weavers, and let's gut spellbreakers, and on down the line til we're back to gutting core specs.

If this is truly about balance and keeping a game mode healthy then let's just cut to the quick and ask for every profession to be rebuilt from the ground up. Otherwise mechanically, as things are- someone has to be the loser here purely by design.

Who here personally wants to take one for the community and play that loser profession for the sake of everyone else's enjoyment?

Any takers? Anybody?

Didn't think so.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Iozeph.5617 said:Just curious. Say they gutted holo tomorrow. Would any of you shut up? And if not, then what would be the next profession you'd beg for to be gutted, because by the tone of the threads in this sub forum whichever one becomes the top of the heap after holo is going to be the one most whinged over til it's also gutted.

The guy in the professions forums had it right. Just give everyone a stick and have done.

Balance is a never ending process.

[Math.5123]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:Just curious. Say they gutted holo tomorrow. Would any of you shut up? And if not, then what would be the next profession you'd beg for to be gutted, because by the tone of the threads in this sub forum whichever one becomes the top of the heap after holo is going to be the one most whinged over til it's also gutted.

The guy in the professions forums had it right. Just give everyone a stick and have done.

Holo, Condi thief, core ranger, spellbreaker, zeal fb. In that orderFire weaver and condi mirage are not in the list.. ?

Condi mirage isn't overpowered anymore. Annoying? Yes. Boring to fight? Most definitely. But not overpowered.Weaver is kind of in the same boat, I also don't really think Condi thief is op per say. It's just a terrible spec to leave in the game. Much like every single PoF spec.

[Stallic.2397]

@"Iozeph.5617" said:These threads are rarely about balance. They're more a matter of, "Get whatever stumbling block is in the way of dominating with the profession of my choice" sorts of affairs because once this happens most people keep their heads down and they DO shut up, hoping that whatever overblown mechanic they're personally riding to victory won't be taken out further down the road.

I'm not arguing against trimming down the holosmith. What I'm talking about is that there's a chain of causality that leads to where we are today. Where do you personally draw the line? How far are you willing to role back for the sake of balance? Was there ever a period where you felt most professions stood an even chance in competitive modes? Because as I mentioned before otherwise this is just peeling back the layers of the onion. It won't end with Holosmith because the majority here have proven they're incapable of stopping when it comes to crying for nerfs. The thread history here speaks to that.

So let's gut Holosmith. And next let's gut firebrand. Then let's gut Scourge, then let's gut weavers, and let's gut spellbreakers, and on down the line til we're back to gutting core specs.

If this is truly about balance and keeping a game mode healthy then let's just cut to the quick and ask for every profession to be rebuilt from the ground up. Otherwise mechanically, as things are- someone has to be the loser here purely by design.

Who here personally wants to take one for the community and play that loser profession for the sake of everyone else's enjoyment?

Any takers? Anybody?

Didn't think so.

Core specs were always supposed to compete against elites. When pof came out, hot elites were brought down.

Pof is next. The assumption above of what might happen is what should have happened already

[praqtos.9035]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:Just curious. Say they gutted holo tomorrow. Would any of you shut up? And if not, then what would be the next profession you'd beg for to be gutted, because by the tone of the threads in this sub forum whichever one becomes the top of the heap after holo is going to be the one most whinged over til it's also gutted.

The guy in the professions forums had it right. Just give everyone a stick and have done.

Holo, Condi thief, core ranger, spellbreaker, zeal fb. In that orderFire weaver and condi mirage are not in the list.. ?

Condi mirage isn't overpowered anymore. Annoying? Yes. Boring to fight? Most definitely. But not overpowered.Weaver is kind of in the same boat, I also don't really think Condi thief is op per say. It's just a terrible spec to leave in the game. Much like every single PoF spec.I dont agree with you but its thread about holo afterall.