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Vanilla Thief Steal Redux


BrokenGlass.9356

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PvE stolen skills are mostly useless. Outside of raid stolen skills. One of which is great.

I'd suggest a revamp.

Where stealing from a PvE mob, your stolen skill, 'pickpocket' will provide random boons. The higher your concentration stat, the more boons it will produce. It should produce random conditions, the higher your condition damage, the more conditions it should produce. And finally, it should do direct damage, more based on ferocity.

This way for condition builds it feels a little like a weaker version of necromancer's Sigil of Spite.

For Direct Damage it operates like another backstab.

For Boon thief, it operates like a weaker Consume Plasma. (providing any boons not currently provided by Thrill of the Crime.)

This would all be reactive, so for a celestial thief with Water Runes, (dunno who would build that.) it would be a weak backstab, and a weak sigil of spite, and a weak few extra boons.

In PvP, the different steal per class is fine, even if some of the steal skill could use a rebalancing. (some of them feel weak. Mesmer steal too strong.)

Deadeye is fine.

Raid steal.... One of them is great. If they made a steal that tuned Boon application to each boss.... That'd be amazing. Or honestly... Just always steal consume plasma in raids. Like one trick that you can count on is great.

Thoughts? I don't know if I have it right or not. But I know vanilla thief's stolen skills aren't great. Any other ideas?

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:I mean, I don't hate that. Just low on flavor.

Either way tho, current stolen skills kinda suck right?

The stolen items are inconsequential except for Consume Plasma. And if you want flavor, that's what we have now.

The Core (aka Vanilla) stolen items are fine as is. If they will change it, then it would be an Elite Stole Item Specialization called the Smuggler.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:I mean, I don't hate that. Just low on flavor.

Either way tho, current stolen skills kinda suck right?

The stolen items are inconsequential except for Consume Plasma. And if you want flavor, that's what we have now.

The Core (aka Vanilla) stolen items are fine as is. If they will change it, then it would be an Elite Stole Item Specialization called the Smuggler.

As much as I'd love my thief to be Han Solo (pre Disney)...

I don't agree that they're fine as is. Seems like most of them are throw away buttons. Or are incredibly situational. And situational skills that are randomly obtained? Not useful, outside of raw luck.

Like, they can be fun against open world trash mobsBut, nothing is OP against trash mobs. Or everything is. Ya know?

I just want to go into fractals and be built for stolen skills as well as steal. Or raids. Hopefully more than just those, what 4(?), bosses who you can consume plasma from?

Maybe consume plasma wouldn't be too OP... Considering it's needed to make core thief viable at all.

I dunno what's too strong, honestly. But I feel pretty confident in what isn't strong enough.

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Probs not that, unfortunately as deadeye can already spec for stolen skills via cantrips.

But there the stolen skills are useful. As they each have a condition, a Boon, and som small direct damage. Thus allowing every build to benifit from them if they choose.

Honestly what I want is for the Boon thief snowcrows build to become viable outside of the four fights where it applies.

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@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:Probs not that, unfortunately as deadeye can already spec for stolen skills via cantrips.

But there the stolen skills are useful. As they each have a condition, a Boon, and som small direct damage. Thus allowing every build to benifit from them if they choose.

Honestly what I want is for the Boon thief snowcrows build to become viable outside of the four fights where it applies.

The reason for the stolen items being useful with DE is because...wait for it...it's...an...Elite...Spec. tada!

Kidding aside. Changing the Core will have a lot of balance issues that I don't think ArenaNet is willing to allocate time and money into. Keep in mind that the whole game is built upon the Core skills and whenever they change any of the Core skills, they break a lot of mechanics in the game world. For example, Black Powder 2s interval is the first thing I can think of, but nobody cares about that anymore because Black Powder is no longer a defensive skill, it's now a toll to get in stealth. Black Powder as a defensive is useless and very expensive and if you use it, you better leap into it. Black Powder was a very effective defense in my P/P build, but now that's broken.

Next the changes to Acrobatics, then Mug, then Critical Strikes, then Shortbow short range, then Shadow Arts, then traps, etc. Every single change to the Core breaks a lot of things in the Core world. I have always advocated that if the problem is in the PvP, changes has to be limited in PvP. Unless ArenaNet is willing to test the new changes in open world, Fractals, dungeons, Raid, story instance, etc. If they are willing, then why not. However, history taught us, they never do that. They make changes then hopes for the best. They expect the players to do the testing for them, however instead of receiving feedback, players simply pack up and leave. Players wants to play a completed game, not beta test it.

I'm not a big fan of the changes they have made to the Core so far, but I have to admit that some changes are positive (i.e. Shadow Arts). Vanilla Feline Grace was far superior, Ricochet and Opportunist in CS was far superior, Mug able to crit was far superior, Black Powder with 1s interval was far superior, and many others. I like Preparations, but I also like the Traps back. Every change they make to the Core makes the Thief not the same anymore. That is why I am not a big supporter whenever a proposal to change anything to Core is proposed. Any "new" ideas should be reserved for an Elite Spec.

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I feel that. Mesmer was my first toon. Condi Mirage was my main before all the confusion nerf, unnerf, and trait edits they did. So I feel you. When they edit core (phantasm) it changes everything else about how the class plays.

So, I have to agree... I'm asking for a dangerous change.

But here's a few bullet points why I don't think what I'm asking for would be particularly game breaking.

  • current skills are 9, totally different skills, which all need to be used for different purposes.
  • in pvp, you always know what skill you're getting. In PvE the skill you get is random.
  • if you don't use your stolen skills you don't really see a significant drop in dps. (outside of the etheral field from throw gunk, to dd3 inside of on condi builds... Which you can't count on.)
  • only one of the nine skills can save you. Because you won't have that skill when you need it, you can ignore the skill as part of your escape plan.

I mean really... It comes down to this. When you can predict what the stolen skill will do, (deadeye or raid bosses) then they become an important enough part of the build to gear around. (see Boon thief, or heal thief) (in the case of deadeye, you can't predict exactly what they'll do... But you know it'll be a boon, and a condition.)

When you cannot predict what the stolen skill will do, then a large percentage of the time, it will be as though you don't have one at all, because the stolen skill won't apply to what it is you're trying to do. It's an extra button, that, had it been a utility skill.... You would have picked something else.

So, all I'm suggesting is that, what you steal corresponds to the gear you're wearing. (as it suits the taste of the thief in question.) this would be in effort to make sure that PvE thieves will always (or almost always) get something that benifit them, or the group. (preferably the group.)

The abilities don't even need to be much stronger. Just more predictable. Even if it was 3 wildly different stolen moves. That would be a huge improvement. Because you'll see all three in a long fight. Or if it was a rotation, always get stolen skills in a, b, c, order. Just anything to make it more predictable than 9, mediocre and situational moves chosen at random.

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:The issue is power creep. Chill on an ele used to be a good thing to have to mess up rotations, but these days with antitoxin and trooper runes doing what they do they're inconsequential at best.

Like... The idea of a move tailor made to screw up a class is really cool. In pvp. I'd even go so far as to say, Vanilla thief in PvP should steal a different skill from core ele, weaver, and tempest. So long as that skill is actually a good counterplay skill.

Core ele- sliver of ice.Weaver- chill, apply vulnerability, apply barrier to self.Tempest- AoE boonstrip, stability, damage.

Or something like that.

I slept on this a bit, and I think in PvE there should only be 4 stolen skills.

Steal Monster- AoE damage, 2 sec evade, apply 2 sec quickness to self when evade frames end. 1/4 sec cast

Steal Humanoid- AoE boontheft 2 boons, 4 sec quickness to 5 targets around you. AoE weakness and cripple. Instant cast

Steal Veteran- AoE cleanse 1 condition up to 10 players, grant 8 sec of quickness, vigor, swiftness, fury and 10 stacks of might in AoE up to 10 players. 1/2 sec cast

Steal Champion- consume plasma.

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:The issue is power creep. Chill on an ele used to be a good thing to have to mess up rotations, but these days with antitoxin and trooper runes doing what they do they're inconsequential at best.

Like... The idea of a move tailor made to screw up a class is really cool. In pvp. I'd even go so far as to say, Vanilla thief in PvP should steal a different skill from core ele, weaver, and tempest. So long as that skill is actually a good counterplay skill.

Core ele- sliver of ice.Weaver- chill, apply vulnerability, apply barrier to self.Tempest- AoE boonstrip, stability, damage.

Or something like that.

I slept on this a bit, and I think in PvE there should only be 4 stolen skills.

Steal Monster- AoE damage, 2 sec evade, apply 2 sec quickness to self when evade frames end. 1/4 sec cast

Steal Humanoid- AoE boontheft 2 boons, 4 sec quickness to 5 targets around you. AoE weakness and cripple. Instant cast

Steal Veteran- AoE cleanse 1 condition up to 10 players, grant 8 sec of quickness, vigor, swiftness, fury and 10 stacks of might in AoE up to 10 players. 1/2 sec cast

Steal Champion- consume plasma.

While it's a cool idea, it adds a very large amount to remember for very little payoff. If there was an elite spec built around it then maybe, but if the skills the skills themselves don't do enough to be significant then you end up in the same situation deadeye is in, where you're better off saving them for the stealth at 5 malice.

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:When you cannot predict what the stolen skill will do, then a large percentage of the time, it will be as though you don't have one at all, because the stolen skill won't apply to what it is you're trying to do. It's an extra button, that, had it been a utility skill.... You would have picked something else.

On the contrary, you can predict what stolen item you will get. However, the item you get doesn't really matter. What matter is using Steal out of cooldown.

Are you going to hold your Steal just because you don't like the stolen item that you're going to get? Really?

The idea behind Steal is the Thief sticking their hand into someone's pocket and get whatever it is they can get. And yes, there are times that the thing you steal are not of value. It adds so much flavor to the Thief profession. Not all stolen item has to be valuable.

Now if the Thief want's to steal something valuable, they stop becoming a common Thief since they are now specializing in some form of stealing. And that kind of Elite Spec wouldn't be too bad.

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I don't hate the idea of this as an elite spec.

I just think it's a problem that core thief is viable in raids, but only on a few bosses. And in those cases, it's viable because the stolen skill is effective, and predictable. And that one build requires gear making it basically useless for other encounters.

It feels like, if the skills were predictable and effective in PvE... Then you could make builds for them the same way you can make a boon thief work on Mathias.

Aside, I want boon thief to work on more than just a few bosses.

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Both core thief and daredevil stolen skills should be reworked to make core thief ones more focused on 900 unit range, daredevil ones more focused on melee, and also making the least useful overall more useful than now.

For now I'd like the stolen skills from other players to be different, while also improving the existing core stolen skills when they feel weaker than other stolen skills.

By giving Swipe different skills, then they can be improved separately if they are too weak with the different playstyle of the Daredevil, so it would be possible to make them work better with a 600 range swipe.

Daredevil would keep core skills that work better with its style, and thief would keep the rest. The new skill would go to thief or daredevil based on that.

For example, Daredevil would keep more melee-focused skills, while thief would have more ranged and generalist skills, like this:

  • Warrior:
    • Thief: Gets a throwing axe that will cripple and damage enemies, like warrior's Throw Axe, but that also knocks down and immobilizes if it's a hit from the back or the flank.
    • Daredevil: Keeps the Whirling Axe. Now it hits harder with each consecutive hit, but the first hit is a bit weaker.
  • Guardian
    • Thief: Gets a skill similar to Chains of Light, but with shadow chains visuals instead blue spirit chains.
    • Daredevil: Keeps Head Crack. Make it hit 3 targets instead 1.
  • Revenant
    • Thief: Keeps Essence Sap. Now it also deals torment and chilled, and gives 2s of Alacrity to the thief if it hits.
    • Daredevil: Gets a short range version of Jade Wind that petrifies a single enemy for 2s.
  • Engineer:
    • Thief: Keeps Throw Gunk. Make it deal Poison every pulse instead as a possible random condition, the other random conditions will remain random and unchanged. Change the combo field to poison instead ethereal.
    • Daredevil: Gets a skill similar to Big Ol' Bomb.
  • Ranger:
    • Thief: Gets single target version of Entangle that pulses for 3s instead 5.
    • Daredevil: Keeps Healing Seed. Change it to pulse 3 times.
  • Thief:
    • Thief: Keeps Blinding Tuft. Give it 2 charges (Improvisation would also be changed to use the ammo system. The thief would get 3 charges instead 2 when stealing this skill with Improvisation).
    • Daredevil: Gets a skill with effects similar to Signet of Agility, but no passive effect. It would give 50 endurance and remove ensnaring effects: Cripple, Chilled and Immobilize.
  • Elementalist
    • Thief: Gets 'Use Staff', a skill that is now only available when stolen from NPCs, but now it'll have two charges: The fist one throws a fireball that causes burning, the second charge throws a bolt of lightning that causes daze.
    • Daredevil: Keep Ice Shard Stab. Now it also deals vulnerability and bleeding, and it's unblockable.
  • Mesmer:
    • Thief: Keep consume plasma.
    • Daredevil: Gets a skill that gives Distortion for 1s.
  • Necromancer:
    • Thief: Gets a skill that summons 2 Jagged Horrors.
    • Daredevil: Keep Skull Fear

Stolen skills from NPCs would be changed to be just from this list (except in raids) instead all the huge list of crappy random stolen skills we get from NPCs.

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:I don't hate the idea of this as an elite spec.

I just think it's a problem that core thief is viable in raids, but only on a few bosses. And in those cases, it's viable because the stolen skill is effective, and predictable. And that one build requires gear making it basically useless for other encounters.

It feels like, if the skills were predictable and effective in PvE... Then you could make builds for them the same way you can make a boon thief work on Mathias.

Aside, I want boon thief to work on more than just a few bosses.

It seems that the problem is not the Thief, but the raid boss design. It should always be that the Dev designs the raid for every profession. Instead, you want the profession to be redesigned for every raid. Redesigning a raid has less ripple effect than redesigning a profession.

IMO, you should be proposing to redesign the raids to be similar to Mathias and leave the Core Thief alone.

However, I'm sure you wouldn't want that because raid would be boring since they'll all be the same encounter. So then, we're back to where we started because you cannot make up your mind. ;)

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That's an improper rephrasing of my argument. The reason that boon thief only works on a few bosses... Is because we know what skill will be stolen. No randomness. So.... If you knew every time you steal, that you get the mesmer stolen skill.... Now you atart thinking that Boon duration is great. Then you realize that with Boon duration you can provide all the boons to the whole party, for the entire fight.

Yes, it takes a huge gear investment to pull off.

But fact is, if Matthias suddenly gave a random stolen skill, there would suddenly be ZERO viable core thief raid builds.

So, what I want is for stolen skills to always feel useful, and to feel like they have synergy with each other. Rather than 9 unrelated moves all used in different ways.

At least deadeye knows every time they press the button its a condi, and a boon. Every time. The condis and boons are random. Sure. But they can at least expect the move to 'hurt them buff me' every time.

What can I expect with vanilla steal? I have no clue. I gotta look away from combat to check if its useful.... Or cast it on a twitch, then realize it was pointless. (dps drops ftw!)

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:That's an improper rephrasing of my argument. The reason that boon thief only works on a few bosses... Is because we know what skill will be stolen. No randomness. So.... If you knew every time you steal, that you get the mesmer stolen skill.... Now you atart thinking that Boon duration is great. Then you realize that with Boon duration you can provide all the boons to the whole party, for the entire fight.

Yes, it takes a huge gear investment to pull off.

But fact is, if Matthias suddenly gave a random stolen skill, there would suddenly be ZERO viable core thief raid builds.

So, what I want is for stolen skills to always feel useful, and to feel like they have synergy with each other. Rather than 9 unrelated moves all used in different ways.

At least deadeye knows every time they press the button its a condi, and a boon. Every time. The condis and boons are random. Sure. But they can at least expect the move to 'hurt them buff me' every time.

What can I expect with vanilla steal? I have no clue. I gotta look away from combat to check if its useful.... Or cast it on a twitch, then realize it was pointless. (dps drops ftw!)

Your argument makes zero sense, that's why. You want a certain Thief build to work on all raid boss, so why not change the raid boss? As I've said, changing the Thief will have ripple effect outside the raid while changing the boss will only affect that raid. The solution to your problem is to make all stolen items from the raid boss non-random. Problem solve. No need to mess with the Core.

Even using Deadeye, if you're a power build and stole a condition damage item, it's useless to you. If you're a condition build and you stole a Fury, it's useless. No difference whatsoever. That is why stolen items are inconsequential.

In addition, Core and DD share the same stolen item table. Thus changing it for the Core build will have a ripple effect on DD builds. Then it will require that the DD will have its own table of stolen items just to keep it balance. Now the Dev is changing not just the Core, but also DD. Then they will have to run test for both -- and the list of ripple effect goes on.

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OK, lemme break it down a bit. Why not change the raid boss? Because that means changing stolen raid skills. Currently there are multiple stolen raid skills. Each boss always gives you the same stolen skill. The only bosses where core thief is good, are the bosses where the stolen skill you get, is good.

So while I would support the idea of consume plasma being the only stolen skill in raids... That feels like a ham fisted fix to an elegant problem.

So, your argument rests on the concept that 'stolen skills are currently balanced' or something like that. Which I argue that they aren't.

I can tell you why ONE of the raid stolen skills is that good. And that one... Is good enough to make folks gear thieves in Diviner's or Harrier's gear... So that they can be effective in 0.01% of the game. And yet, nobody considers the build OP. Despite its 100% uptime on every boon but alacrity.

If you make a power, or condi build... You can play all the parts of them game. If you make a soldiers tank (while not good in raids...) you can enjoy PvE without feeling the wasted stats.

Outside of the few places that healing boon thief is good... What's a harrier's thief to do? I know that not every build should be viable everywhere. But here's the issue. If I want to make a healer thief, I can. And I need a different gear set to just be a healer. Vs. Being a healer with boon output. The entire boon output comes from a single stolen skill. Which would be fine if we always had the button, like renegade's f1 and f3. But that button is random, and 8/9ths of the time.... You don't do the thing you built for. (yes it does steal boons from the enemy with sword also... Cute, if thief had a way to share them)

So I'm saying in a nutshell Current stolen skills are underpowered. Thief's ability to provide party support is limited due to Thief's selfish class design. If stolen skills provided boons reliably, (as well as damage of both types) then the class would be improved, by allowing greater build diversity without damaging existing builds. (because all existing builds assume that the stolen skill will be useless, and so it's just not part of the decision making in the skill builder.... Outside of boon thief. For 4 fights.)

Can you provide an argument for why stolen skills are good in thier current form against PvE mobs and in fractals/world bosses/meta events? Is the experience of playing those game modes much changed by simply, not using the stolen skill? Have you ever tested the difference in dps output of the same build using, vs not using the stolen skills? If you have, did you run the same test multiple times and average the scores to account for RNGesus?

I don't claim to know what the new stolen skills should do, I can pipedream. But I don't know. I do feel like I understand the problem.

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There are a few problems with steal. For example, we have two effects that are using the exact same Icon. Thats always annoyed the hell out of me. That should be unacceptable.The other issue is there are too damn many stolen's. 28 Possible items that range from knockdown to invulnerable for 3 seconds.On top of that, there is no consistency in what we steal. You steal from one kind of bird, and you'll get feathers that stealth you, steal from another and you get a Egg. Steal from yet another and you get something that casts an AOE Flame!

What we need is for them to reduce the number of stolen's to far less. 10 possible stolen skills would be fine, its one more than what we have access to in WvW from players, so many of us wouldnt even have to look it up, we would just pick up on it over time. Don't outright remove any, roll them in to each other so that they are all more effective and honestly a useful skill.Same goes for the Deadeye Mark skills. I rarely recognize what Im getting from it in PVE, and pop it instead for the stealth factor.But lets be honest. Two thirds of the enemy's we face drop Throw Gunk or Branch Bash. Clearly Anet have given up caring about this entire mechanic from our profession.Edit: Just checked. 90 of the possible 159 stolen skills are either Throw Gunk, or Branch Bash. Thats nearly 2/3'ds of the skills.

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@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:OK, lemme break it down a bit. Why not change the raid boss? Because that means changing stolen raid skills. Currently there are multiple stolen raid skills. Each boss always gives you the same stolen skill. The only bosses where core thief is good, are the bosses where the stolen skill you get, is good.

So while I would support the idea of consume plasma being the only stolen skill in raids... That feels like a ham fisted fix to an elegant problem.

So, your argument rests on the concept that 'stolen skills are currently balanced' or something like that. Which I argue that they aren't.

I can tell you why ONE of the raid stolen skills is that good. And that one... Is good enough to make folks gear thieves in Diviner's or Harrier's gear... So that they can be effective in 0.01% of the game. And yet, nobody considers the build OP. Despite its 100% uptime on every boon but alacrity.

If you make a power, or condi build... You can play all the parts of them game. If you make a soldiers tank (while not good in raids...) you can enjoy PvE without feeling the wasted stats.

Outside of the few places that healing boon thief is good... What's a harrier's thief to do? I know that not every build should be viable everywhere. But here's the issue. If I want to make a healer thief, I can. And I need a different gear set to just be a healer. Vs. Being a healer with boon output. The entire boon output comes from a single stolen skill. Which would be fine if we always had the button, like renegade's f1 and f3. But that button is random, and 8/9ths of the time.... You don't do the thing you built for. (yes it does steal boons from the enemy with sword also... Cute, if thief had a way to share them)

So I'm saying in a nutshell Current stolen skills are underpowered. Thief's ability to provide party support is limited due to Thief's selfish class design. If stolen skills provided boons reliably, (as well as damage of both types) then the class would be improved, by allowing greater build diversity without damaging existing builds. (because all existing builds assume that the stolen skill will be useless, and so it's just not part of the decision making in the skill builder.... Outside of boon thief. For 4 fights.)

Can you provide an argument for why stolen skills are good in thier current form against PvE mobs and in fractals/world bosses/meta events? Is the experience of playing those game modes much changed by simply, not using the stolen skill? Have you ever tested the difference in dps output of the same build using, vs not using the stolen skills? If you have, did you run the same test multiple times and average the scores to account for RNGesus?

I don't claim to know what the new stolen skills should do, I can pipedream. But I don't know. I do feel like I understand the problem.

The Core stolen items predates Fractals and Raids and is balanced. With that in mind, you can see the ones that is causing all the issues are the designs of Fractals and Raid. Thus, my argument is, the solution to these issues are in the Fractals and Raid. Just as issues that arose in PvP, the solution should stay in PvP.

Now it is the Devs decision not to make all builds viable in a Raid, for example. That is a raid design decision. If they want certain build to be viable in a raid, they can redesign the raid to make those build viable -- no need to change the profession at all.

My position is that, you should propose changes to the raid, not on the Thief since the change you're proposing has no benefit outside the Raid, in fact, it will be broken outside the Raid.

Do you even realize how a snowballing conditions based on condition damage will do in WvW? Or what your "another Backstab" will do?

Of course not. Your suggestion is so narrow- and shortsighted and only care about Raids.

Raid is like building a house and the Devs built a narrow door. The problem is that not everyone can enter through that narrow door. My position is for the Dev to redesign the door and widen it. Your position is, "nah, everyone just need to lose weight."

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Allow me a moment to clarify what are obviously misunderstandings. I do not only care about raids. Raids were the tool I used to identify the problem.

You are getting hung up, and not reading what I'm saying. The devs would be the ones deciding what to change (duh) and I'm just making suggestions. That scaling idea in my original post..... We'll I've said multiple times that it should be split between pvp and pve. So... How's my PvE change gonna affect WvW? Don't they have separate balance over there? (I feel like I read something about that.) also, I suggested a different idea later on down the thread. (with 4 stolen skills for 'monsters' 'humanoids', 'veterans', and 'champions and above')

You gotta zoom back a meta level. The specific changes are unimportant.

Just because it's been that way from launch, does not mean that it's balanced. (mesmer phantasms anyone? That took like 6 years to address)

The power has, erm... What's the word.... Crept. So, now those skills are not good. Compare them to your other skills. Like log in, and go on a tool tip reading sprey. Stolen skills suck. Even if you find one and go "oh! That's a good skill!" you will basically never get it when you need it.Since fully ascending my heal thief I've run fractals maybe 10 times with him, and been running around the living world season 4 zones... And never once seen the "Ranger" skill. The one with the regen and the water field. You know... The healing one. And I know it's just bad RNGesus. Like... I could see it tonight. But I'm not counting on it.

Can you tell me WHY the current skills are meaningful and fun to use?

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