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If current raids are too difficult for you, you are not the target demographic of raiding content


yusayu.3629

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:if there is one group that better check their priviledges it is raiders:

who got the good looking legendary armor while everybody else (who have to spend hundreds of hours to get it) gets garbage? raiderswho gets more or less regular content drops, while others (wvw, pvp) get nothing? raiderswhose playmode dominates balancing and make others suffer? raiderswho get lore that this locked away for others? raiders

see a pattern?btw, raid legendary armor: I am still angry (really angry) that the legendary raid skin was and is not the universal legendary armor skin. Oh no, the precious flowers had to get something really really special. Why?

You got it all wrong.

Who got all the good looking (arguable) gem store items? FarmersWho got all the account based addons from the gem store? FarmersWho gets regular content drops? Farmers, I laugh at the "content drops" for RaidsWhich player mode dominates balancing and makes other suffer? Farmers

See a pattern here?

The group that has all the privileges is the casual farmers that never have to spend any cash to buy things from the gem store, they get the best skins, the best addons, the most content and ruin balancing. That group is by far the worst

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Well you see when the target demographic is not the overwhelming majority of players, that can be problematic. This content that takes time and money to make is only enjoyed by a few people, to me that doesn't seem like a sound decision. I think that the developers have begun seeing that too as budget and schedules have gotten tighter so it's probably why they're already introducing "easy" mode raids aka strike missions. Hopefully those do well so that the day they move on completely from raids comes sooner rather than later. And you and the target demographic for the raids can happily continue gatekeeping Vale Guardian, Samarog and co. as you repeat them for the 1000th time. :)

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Henry.5713" said:I am most likely not the target audience of Open World PvE and story content. What should I do? Quit the game and move on to other games which focus on the content I enjoy most: raids and Open World PvP? Should I complain and ask Open World PvE and story instances to be changed to be more to my liking because I am entitled to it? Or should I just play the content I like while being happy for those who do enjoy content I do not? I wonder....Whatever you want. You're free to ask developers for anything, just as other players are. This doesn't mean everyone will agree to it, of course, but fortunately for you, it;s the devs that will ultimately decide, not the other players.

By the way,your second example - "Should I complain and ask Open World PvE and story instances to be changed to be more to my liking because I am entitled to it?" - has already happened in this game before ina very visible way. More hardcore crowd complained on the forums that the PvE was too easy and it should be made harder. The result was HoT. The difficulty... as you know was not met with as much applause as those asking for it hoped.

In short: asking for content to be changed frequently happens on
both
sides of the divide, and infrequently ends up with results (again, for either one or the other side). It's a constant tug of war, in which no side has
ever
been satisfied with what they had. Because, it is not really possible to satisfy everyone.

To be fair, there are plenty of gem store outfits that look far more "legendary" than that armor. I'm fine with having a legendary item that can't be bought with a CC, even if it means very few have it. And that's from someone who hasn't stepped into a raid since HoT and I'm not planning to anytime soon.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:

You got it all wrong.

Who got all the good looking (arguable) gem store items? FarmersWho got all the account based addons from the gem store? FarmersWho gets regular content drops? Farmers, I laugh at the "content drops" for RaidsWhich player mode dominates balancing and makes other suffer? Farmers

See a pattern here?

The group that has all the privileges is the casual farmers that never have to spend any cash to buy things from the gem store, they get the best skins, the best addons, the most content and ruin balancing. That group is by far the worst

Someone is grossly overestimating casual farming. Especially with Anet's focus on more big-ticket gem items these days. The only group I can think who can do that with such ease are TP flippers. And those are anything but "casual".

Also farmers dominating balancing? What??[moderator: content edited]

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@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:Someone is grossly overestimating casual farming.

It's not about doing it easily, it's about having a much easier time than raiders. At least those farmers get way more gold than Raiders will ever hope to.

The line

Who got all the good looking (arguable) gem store items? Farmerswas a response towho got the good looking legendary armor while everybody else (who have to spend hundreds of hours to get it) gets garbage? raiders

There was a claim about things "hidden" in Raids as a bad thing, while there is a metric ton of things "hidden" behind excessive farming (or paying cash). But I guess it's fine to put something behind the gem store (meaning promoting farming) but it's not to put it behind actual content.

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@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:To be fair, there are plenty of gem store outfits that look far more "legendary" than that armor. I'm fine with having a legendary item that can't be bought with a CC, even if it means very few have it. And that's from someone who hasn't stepped into a raid since HoT and I'm not planning to anytime soon.The post in question has absolutely nothing to do with the percieved quality of legendary armor.The post in question is simply a player who wants the top tier rewards from PvE content without having to do the top tier content.....and then blaming those playing the top tier content for the fact they have the shiny he wants.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:Someone is grossly overestimating casual farming.

It's not about doing it easily, it's about having a much easier time than raiders. At least those farmers get way more gold than Raiders will ever hope to.
Casual
farmers? Not even close. You're talking about very hardcore farming here - and that also is a niche.

Also, i don't remember even a single case where class balance got affected in any way because of farmers. Even the infamous guard lootstick change was due to WvW, not it being a good farming weapon.

@"mindcircus.1506" said:The post in question is simply a player who wants the top tier rewards from PvE content without having to do the top tier content.The game once had an idea that we shouldn;t funnel players toward some content designated as "endgame" (or "top tier"), and that we should decide for ourselves what should our engame be. How far have we fallen since then...

(hint: the mere fact that you believe there's something that is a "top tier content", and that it's the only content entitled to "top tier rewards" is something i perceive as a problem. As i see it, this game should not support that way of thinking)

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:

It's not about doing it easily, it's about having a much easier time than raiders. At least those farmers get way more gold than Raiders will ever hope to.
Casual
farmers? Not even close. You're talking about very hardcore farming here - and that also is a niche.

Depends on your definition of "casual", casual as in how much they play each week, or casual as in the type of content they play. I was more thinking of the second type, those that only play the easy farms of the game and ignore the more challenging content, or really any other type of content. Just like how casual has two meanings, hardcore has two meanings too, hardcore as in farming a lot of hours every day, and hardcore as in playing the most challenging content. A player can be casual in both types, hardcore in both types, or a mix of the two.

To be precise I only differentiate the two in terms of content they play and I disregard the idea of a "casual playing few hours", so as not to confuse two meanings, for the same word. With the above in mind, the 10s of full squads in the LFG for things like Istan, Silverwastes, Dragonfall, Auric Basin, Mad King's Labyrinth, the Crown Pavilion, the World Boss Rush, the Champion Rush and so on (based on which is the best farm atm) aren't for sure filled by the hardcore players, otherwise nobody would call them a minority anymore. So it stands to reason that the majority of the players farming and filling the squads are actually on the casual side.

Those are the players that get anything they want in the game, with a tiny few unique rewards behind certain content, that they have no access to, yet the "other side" has no access to their rewards

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:

It's not about doing it easily, it's about having a much easier time than raiders. At least those farmers get way more gold than Raiders will ever hope to.
Casual
farmers? Not even close. You're talking about very hardcore farming here - and that also is a niche.

Depends on your definition of "casual", casual as in how much they play each week, or casual as in the type of content they play. I was more thinking of the second type, those that only play the easy farms of the game and ignore the more challenging content, or really any other type of content. Just like how casual has two meanings, hardcore has two meanings too, hardcore as in farming a lot of hours every day, and hardcore as in playing the most challenging content. A player can be casual in both types, hardcore in both types, or a mix of the two.You misunderstood me. It's not about the time required - there are definitely casual players that still play a lot. It's about a playing style. Farming to that extent requires a dedication that is way beyond what i would consider casual. A casual player may go and do a hour of SW, few metas , and be done for a day. He is also unlikely to continue doing the same thing day after day after day.

Hint: do you remember the first queen's gauntlet event (infamous Deadeye farming), coupled with Scarlet Invasions? People could earn ridiculous (for that time, anyway) amounts of gold then. A certain GW2 economist i'm sure you remember mentioned then, what was the income for the median active player. Not per day, but for the whole event.It was 2 gold.That is your "casual farmer".

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:You misunderstood me. It's not about the time required - there are definitely casual players that still play a lot. It's about a playing style. Farming to that extent requires a dedication that is way beyond what i would consider casual. A casual player may go and do a hour of SW, few metas , and be done for a day. He is also unlikely to continue doing the same thing day after day after day.

An hour of SW, Istan and other big meta events will net the average casual player more gold than the average raider will get in 1 hour. If anything the lower end of raider might even get 0 gold after 1 hour of Raids. There is no chance to get nothing while farming meta events. Also, Raids are locked per week. That average casual farmer will get more rewards over a week.

That is your "casual farmer".

Let's see, we have the casual farmer that gets nothing, the hardcore raiders that get whatever Raids give, and "the rest" of the active players that play the meta events, world bosses and farm maps, keeping the game alive and active, how do you call those? In terms of content they play they are still casual, and definitely not raiders. By the way, without those the game would be a barren wasteland.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:Let's see, we have the casual farmer that gets nothing, the hardcore raiders that get whatever Raids give, and "the rest" of the active players that play the meta events, world bosses and farm maps, keeping the game alive and active, how do you call those? In terms of content they play they are still casual, and definitely not raiders. By the way, without those the game would be a barren wasteland.

Your very perception that there even are "casual farmers" is the crook to your "naming problem".Farmers are just farmers. They are dedicated to farming. You may add "meta farmer" or "SW farmer" as sub categories, but they still are dedicated to farming and want to do it effectively. They are in it for the money/items.Raiders are dedicated to raiding. They are in it for their legendary stuff or because they enjoy hard content and peer pressure.Casuals players are in it for kicking back and have relaxed after-work time. They aren't dedicated to anything other than pure and distilled enjoyment.Casuals try to avoid any stress in games and don't care whether they are effective or not.Casuals aren't be farmers as those play styles directly contradict each other.

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@"Fueki.4753" said:Casuals try to avoid any stress in games and don't care whether they are effective or not.Casuals aren't be farmers as those play styles directly contradict each other.

And here is where we disagree. You don't need to be effective to be a farmer, most of the meta events that are being farmed are completely brainless. There is no requirement to do the farm as efficiently as possible, just following a blob and pressing 1 on your keyboard is enough. There is zero stress or any kind of effectiveness required.

Let me get this now. Raiders are a minority, let's say this is argument is true. On the other hand the argument that casuals are the majority directly conflicts with reality, as this non-raider, non-casual (by your definition) type of player is what keeps the game alive and active, by filling a few maps with people, while in the rest of the maps you'll be hard pressed to find lots of players. So either all the casuals (by your definition) stopped playing or play so rarely that are barely noticeable in-game, so who cares about them.

The "majority of the game's players are casual" argument is in serious trouble if you only identify casuals as those that neither deal with harder content, nor deal with any kind of farm.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:Someone is grossly overestimating casual farming.

It's not about doing it easily, it's about having a much easier time than raiders. At least those farmers get way more gold than Raiders will ever hope to.
Casual
farmers? Not even close. You're talking about very hardcore farming here - and that also is a niche.

Also, i don't remember even a single case where class balance got affected in any way because of farmers. Even the infamous guard lootstick change was due to WvW, not it being a good farming weapon.

@"mindcircus.1506" said:The post in question is simply a player who wants the top tier rewards from PvE content without having to do the top tier content.The game once had an idea that we shouldn;t funnel players toward some content designated as "endgame" (or "top tier"), and that we should decide for ourselves what should our engame be. How far have we fallen since then...

(hint: the mere fact that you believe there's something that is a "top tier content", and that it's the only content entitled to "top tier rewards" is something i perceive as a problem. As i see it, this game should
not
support that way of thinking)

Yes. You've been clear in the past that you believe there should be a path to Legendary Armor by pressing 1 on Karka Queen and Fire Elemental. I find your argument weak , rhetoric false and your tone unhealthy.I won't engage you on it.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:The "majority of the game's players are casual" argument is in serious trouble if you only identify casuals as those that neither deal with harder content, nor deal with any kind of farm.

I see way more people doing map completion and diddling in non-meta events than I see people farming meta-events or doing SW.On some days, I even see more guild event participants than farmers.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:The "majority of the game's players are casual" argument is in serious trouble if you only identify casuals as those that neither deal with harder content, nor deal with any kind of farm.

I see way more people doing map completion and diddling in non-meta events than I see people farming meta-events or doing SW.On some days, I even see more guild event participants than farmers.

Yes and these people you speak of still earn more money then 90% of the raiding population over the week of playing their content vs raiders content.

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I killed Dhuum with zerk DH with an 80/90 ping, people in other countries tend to have higher ping, and someone with over 100 ping will need some marauder, someone with 300+ ping may need full marauder, but that will hurt their DPS to the extent they will be kicked, or the group will very likely fail in a standard group.Too hard is an opinion, the ability to stay alive while holding a proper output is primarily dependent on ping, and training/practice.Anyone can do raids with decent ping, and training on a meta build.If someone lacks training, get with them outside of raid time and explain things on the golem, or tell them about the the raiders inn.If someone with training/practice can't raid with full glass due to the ping of being across the world, and some marauder is unacceptable then maybe the content is too hard.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:You misunderstood me. It's not about the time required - there are definitely casual players that still play a lot. It's about a playing style. Farming to that extent requires a dedication that is way beyond what i would consider casual. A casual player may go and do a hour of SW, few metas , and be done for a day. He is also unlikely to continue doing the same thing day after day after day.

An hour of SW, Istan and other big meta events will net the average casual player more gold than the average raider will get in 1 hour. If anything the lower end of raider might even get 0 gold after 1 hour of Raids. There is no chance to get
nothing
while farming meta events. Also, Raids are locked per week. That average casual farmer will get more rewards over a week.The average casual farmer doesn't exist. And the average casual player might, in fact,
not
get more rewards in a week than a raider gets in a full clear. You're underestimating raid rewards and overestimating income of average players.

That is your "casual farmer".

Let's see, we have the casual farmer that gets nothing, the hardcore raiders that get whatever Raids give, and "the rest" of the active players that play the meta events, world bosses and farm maps, keeping the game alive and active, how do you call those?

Players that actively do all of those things mentioned by you, day after day, week after week? Minority.

You are making a big mistake here - you assume that the people you see at every meta, world boss, etc are the same people. They aren't. You don't need people actively and often doing multiple metas and world bosses to make maps alive. All that is required is that there's a sufficient number of players doing some of those, sometimes. Remember, you don't need that many people to make the map feel alive. A single (not even full) squad would do. For some events you'd need even less.

Let's say you have a player that spends an hour over the week on some map (and does nothing else during that week). You'd need 3500-4000 players like that to make that map seem alive every single hour for the whole week. Make that 40k of those players, and you can keep up 10 maps active.

I sincerely hope this game has still way more than 40k players playing at least one hour per week.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:You misunderstood me. It's not about the time required - there are definitely casual players that still play a lot. It's about a playing style. Farming to that extent requires a dedication that is way beyond what i would consider casual. A casual player may go and do a hour of SW, few metas , and be done for a day. He is also unlikely to continue doing the same thing day after day after day.

An hour of SW, Istan and other big meta events will net the average casual player more gold than the average raider will get in 1 hour. If anything the lower end of raider might even get 0 gold after 1 hour of Raids. There is no chance to get
nothing
while farming meta events. Also, Raids are locked per week. That average casual farmer will get more rewards over a week.The average casual farmer doesn't exist. And the average casual player might, in fact,
not
get more rewards in a week than a raider gets in a full clear. You're underestimating raid rewards and overestimating income of average players.

The majority of raiders do not full clear. The majority of raiders do not clear multiple wings per evening. If you are comparing high end raiders, of which there is maybe a couple of hundred in EU and NA, then compare them to the appropriate counterparts in open world. Hardcore farmers who are super efficient or do lucrative farms.

Casual or less experienced raiders might clear wings 1-4 over a week, and most of those wings/bosses not in a first kill.

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@avey.4201 said:I killed Dhuum with zerk DH with an 80/90 ping, people in other countries tend to have higher ping, and someone with over 100 ping will need some marauder, someone with 300+ ping may need full marauder, but that will hurt their DPS to the extent they will be kicked, or the group will very likely fail in a standard group.

Except that you wont. If your dps is so low that you get kicked for running marauder instead of berzerker, you have bigger problems than your equipment.

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:It will be much healthier for the game in the long run

Why don't you just play FF14 endgame or become a mystic raider in WoW if GW2 is too easy for you?So let me get this straight:Since I want some challenge and speak out about it on the forums I should just go play a different game?

You can have your challenge even in this game without making the game harder for the others. Let's say .... you can try to defeat a raid boss without weapons - only using the movement skills and the skills you can trigger without a weapon. Or you can run a raid in one of the non-meta (the famous sub-optimal) builds. Forcing yourself to perform a non-optimal rotation (you can ask advice from a casual if you have difficulties finding it). And so on.... You already have challenges. Your problem is that you want to make everybody's life harder. What was the question ..... Why you don't play FFIV or the mystic raids in WoW if you are too lazy to try new builds/rotations here in GW2?

Please show me one video game that does not get harder the further you progress.

You are right here. The difficulty should scale with the progress you made. But here, in GW2 the progress is ZERO. I mean, the lack of vertical progression makes the idea of increased difficulty something funny. Don;t tell me that if you change the skin of your glider - for example - you suddenly made a progress and you need a harder content?

Casuals aren't magically turning into elitist level players. They are going to find new games.I don't think kicking out the majority of the player base is healthy for any game.But apparently you can show me the door whenever you like and that's good for the game huh?

Well, what you suggest will affect all of the players (in a positive or negative way, who knows?). And this is something different to the suggestion for one player to find a more suited game. This is - unless you consider yourself as the majority.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:According to these forums, this so called vast majority of players doesn't want to get better, meaning they aren't a target audience of Strikes either.According to these forums?According to these forums the game will die if Super Adventure Box isnt made a year round thing.According to these forums a data-mined string of text about leaving a demo instance is proof that the devs are working on Season 1.According to these forums everyone wants more underwater content.According to these forums closing exploits is "nerfing a farm".According to these forums Arenanet is nothing but a money-grubbing group of evil masterminds who exploit gambling addiction to make their living.According to these forums a picture that is clearly snow is actually sea foam and proof season5 takes place in Cantha.According to these forums raids are not PVE content.

These forums are utterly disconnected from in-game reality. Might not be a good idea to base any argument on things that are said here.

LOL? Your suggestions are made on the Forum. That means that - according to your own statements - you are utterly disconnected from the in-game reality. And still, you made suggestions. I only hope no dev. will take you seriously. Because of how aware of the GW2 reality you are (according to your own statements).

@"yusayu.3629" said:Change my mind.

You can change your mind. You can keep your original opinion. No matter for me. Because, before you, ANet excluded me from their target audience for raids - by their statements that the Raids are " ... only for the ... " of the players. Well, I don't know how you react, but I see this as a tentative of bribery. I never considered myself different from the other players playing the same game. By accepting this offer I will place myself in a group/community considering themselves different. The theory of "the chosen" leads to excesses. We can feel the toxicity already.

I will not change my opinion (even if Anet will release raids solo-able) unless I will see a statement regarding the raids and the difficulty of the raids without the words ...only for .... Something like ..." a very difficult content, where a lot of skill, dedication and patience is needed for success". Something where you cannot see the famos "only for".

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:You misunderstood me. It's not about the time required - there are definitely casual players that still play a lot. It's about a playing style. Farming to that extent requires a dedication that is way beyond what i would consider casual. A casual player may go and do a hour of SW, few metas , and be done for a day. He is also unlikely to continue doing the same thing day after day after day.

An hour of SW, Istan and other big meta events will net the average casual player more gold than the average raider will get in 1 hour. If anything the lower end of raider might even get 0 gold after 1 hour of Raids. There is no chance to get
nothing
while farming meta events. Also, Raids are locked per week. That average casual farmer will get more rewards over a week.The average casual farmer doesn't exist. And the average casual player might, in fact,
not
get more rewards in a week than a raider gets in a full clear. You're underestimating raid rewards and overestimating income of average players.

The majority of raiders do not full clear. The majority of raiders do not clear multiple wings per evening. If you are comparing high end raiders, of which there is maybe a couple of hundred in EU and NA, then compare them to the appropriate counterparts in open world. Hardcore farmers who are super efficient or do lucrative farms.

Casual or less experienced raiders might clear wings 1-4 over a week, and most of those wings/bosses not in a first kill.That's a fair point. Especially now, with 7 wings on the menu.
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