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You can do raids with 0 experience, here s how I did it.


Hex.8714

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:You forget that the initial posts were due to people doing dungeons at their advertised level, in a mix of blue and green random gear. As soon as people started doing them with exotic-geared level 80's, complains practically stopped.

AC done by level 35 characters in greens are still quite hard for an average player.

No the complaints did not stop once they got fully geared with exotics and at level 80. There are posts asking for easy modes for dungeons way after the release of the game. And besides, Arah, Honor of the Waves and Crucible of Eternity were always level 80 content, still got complaints for those. It wasn't gear that allowed players to beat dungeons, it was tactics, the bland and boring, stack in a corner, stack might, damage fast, kill, rinse repeat. It was horrible that the most efficient tactic in the game, was also the dumbest.They were also made significantly easier to compensate for the "no ressing in combat" changes. I remember doing Subject Alpha before and after that patch, and it was a completely different experience.

Revive in combat is still possible, what was removed was the ability to use a waypoint when dead, without the requirement for the entire team to be also be dead. The changes to the boss mechanics were mostly minor tweaks, and focused on the story part of the dungeons. While Subject Alpha's health had minor reduction, so maybe you simply got better at the game instead of that minor health reduction to be responsible for the massive difficulty reduction. Also, the update happened about 5 months after release (the update in question was on January 29th, 2013) which questions the entire idea of the intended audience of the dungeons.

Edit: I wouldn't call some minor tweaks "significantly easier".

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:(also, the best noob strategy for Lupicus, one that was very safe with high success rate? Just range him from safe distance, ressing when necessary. Stacking was a guaranteed wipe for 90% of the pug groups. Most Arah horror stories i saw was from grups that read a guide and didn't realize the guides assumed certain skill and organization level. Pugs that didn't read those guides had it actually better. Even if some paths could take up to 3 hours)

Filter bubble.I was there. From the start. Every single day. Ranging was the "safe" option but even that people couldn't handle before HoT. Arah had an average of 2-3 lfgs and was rarely run by non-zerker groups. Most of the time I ended up soloing or duoing him with a friend. In addition in lots of those groups broke apart even before the first boss because players were dying left and right due to trash mobs. They were unable to skip but also unable to beat them or even survive more than 2 attacks while I/we was/were still standing in zerker gear.And I also remember (post dungeon path!) the "every-day-catastrophes" in AC path 2 outside of zerker groups because casual players were not familiar with the ghost buster mechanic at all. P1 was also a gamble because lots of players were unable to kill the burrows at a decent pace without zerker exotics and knowledge of their classes. P3 was the only safe bet because there was literally no threat. Even Colossus Rumblus, who is a bigger danger today due to stability changes and some shenanigans they did with Warmaster Grast, was no problem at all because back in the days you could stack for hours in the famous corner on the right.A big thing as well was SE p1 if you had guards geared in heavy defensive stuff but actually no use of reflects. That was a highlight and a total mirror image of the majority of the GW2 community (as well as bearbow ranger shooting enemies into oblivion of course).

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"xenon.3264" said:No. The game aimed to player from other mobs who were bored to hell of raids and vertical progression.

Let's not twist facts here. Explorable modes for dungeons and the Orr temple events were aimed directly at players that like Raids in other mmorpgs.

Is there a source? I’m not saying you’re wrong (or right) but I’m curious

Here you go:

"The 'explorable' dungeon modes are definitely for the more hardcore crowd,"These explorable dungeons are meant to attract the crowd that would normally be raiding in other MMOs.

It's a bit clear that explorable modes of dungeons were aimed at the demographic/crowd of Raiders, no double meanings there or that they were for everyone or anything like that. They were for the Hardcore crowd and for those that are normally raiding in other MMOs. Meaning the game was attracting RAIDERS

The part

also noting that the world bosses outside the dungeons serve the same purposeIs also interesting

Also, for some months after release the dungeons of Guild Wars 2 were compared to WoW raids in difficulty. Even major reviews were reporting that the dungeons were really hard. Of course the players (and the developers) were using a brand new combat system and we were all newbies. Once we got experienced and found the "stack in a corner" meta they all became easy, but for a time explorable dungeons were for the hardcore crowd and that's the exact demographic they were aimed at.

Thank you for finding that link.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"xenon.3264" said:5 man content is not raid.

The definition of a raid or raiding as an activity has nothing to with a set number of players. It can be 1 but also infinite.

definition of raid is "number is greater than normal party". dot

that is the only difference. if they would reduce to 5 men content it wold be ok for me

Ok not the target but since it seems not enough people do it they had to reduce the number of developers dedicated to them and now the change to strikes

There's not such a statement that they reduced the number of developers of raids & fractals. And as well none of the fact that they
change
their direction from raids to strike missions. From what is known strike missions are a plus, an addition. Namely for the more casual player to have some interesting & replayable content because let's face it: In the long run living story is keeping players in the game just for 1-2 weeks and then you're done with the new map and the game heavily lacks content. Almost since years it's the same thing, a ls episode is being released, there is a new map, players are playing story, explore the map, playing the meta several times and then they're done. Achievement hunters - not a big majority - will stay longer and if the map has a good potential for easy gold per hour it'll turn out a farming map for the "insane" crowd which will result in another, previous farming map being less grinded.

Average Joe isn't pleased with that. He is getting some free content every 3-4 months, yeah and he will consume it especially due to the reason that it is free of cost. But if this content doesn't keep him in the game he won't spend money at all and in the long run Anet cannot maintain this game. It's just not profitable that way, that's business and what cost a lot of employees their job at the beginning of this year.

you have a strange idea of casual and even more on who really spend money. a casual would be more probably the one who spend real money cause he has no time to farm

Arah explorable was the endgame ages ago but u can still create a group and try

Lots of players still
can't
get through Arah P1-P4 although we have a huge amount of power creep. I'm regularly helping groups through otherwise they would be lost and as in the past not being able to kill Lupicus. Not to mention other bosses/mechanics on the way.

but it is still doable with avarage joe with any build explaining the mechanics. ops this is not possibile with raids.

that's the whole point. avarage joe is , MUST be the target

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@"xenon.3264" said:definition of raid is "number is greater than normal party". dot

that is the only difference. if they would reduce to 5 men content it wold be ok for me

No, that's just plain wrong. The definition has nothing to do with player size.

you have a strange idea of casual and even more on who really spend money. a casual would be more probably the one who spend real money cause he has no time to farm

Let's make it easy for you: I raised the question: "What is the actual content for a gamer in GW2 at the moment?"There would be a broad scope. From content for people who log in a day every week (or less) but "casual" could also mean playing more regularly however not on from an optimized point of view in terms of meta, fractal & raids.We don't need content for players that belong to the first group because they still have tons of content to play. It's possible that they'll never ever touch strike missions because they're still far behind their horizon. So, the rest of the folks remain - in my opinion the majority of "casual" players. And here I addressed my previos question: Where is the content for this target group?Living Story? Yeah, of course but as I said: 1-2 weeks and they're done with it at best including some hours at the new map and their meta. What's left is achievement hunting and farming gold on maps (a.k.a. grinding) but it's highly debatable if that is a common goal between casual players. I think you would agree here that it's not.And here we are, unless you are not a very slow player with very limited time GW2 offers nothing more than that (except you think it's fun to do your 27th 100% map completion which again is more than just "casual") after playing the actual living story episode. Fractal players have their fracs, raiders their raids, PvPers their PvP and WvWers their WvW. I'm not saying these crowds are satisfied - they're all not but there is side- or more content for them.In the end this game is lacking more casually PvE content and Anet tries to integrate strike missions against that problem. That's the main reason for this new invention - to keep the more casual crowd playing a.k.a. online in their game. And they made it crystal clear: strike missions are easier to give players a "non-stressful" (source: living world announcement - I just rewatched it to hear the words: "no stress") boss fight with rewards so they would spend their time there. Just think about it. They wouldn't hand out such fights if everything would be fine and enthusiastically replayable for months with the usual ls episodes.

but it is still doable with avarage joe with any build explaining the mechanics. ops this is not possibile with raids.

that's the whole point. avarage joe is , MUST be the target

Raids are doable with explaining the mechanics if you have a proper build and that's the only difference. And that is fine because raids are niche content - they were niche and they'll stay niche. Most of the dungeons were niche content before as well even in the days they were farmed because Average Joe only went into AC & CoF & TA + SE 1. Arah was highly avoided and even explaining mechanics didn't lead to success in every group. As I wrote I was there. On a daily basis. Every day.But that's not the key point here. The key point is: strike missions are for Average Joe and that's fine for me. Raids & fractals are not and that is working because lots of players don't even like to play them. Just have a look at the T1 lfg. It's empty and most often used for legendary weapon achievement things. What is not working is the release cadence. Even 2 of my best casual buddies aren't playing any more as well as almost all of my raiding guild. Overall there's too less content for everyone.

The only thing I hoped was that Anet wakes up and releases more content for everyone. Seems like they are trying but the terrible decisionmaking (beginning with LS1 + firing the dungeon team shortly after game release) in the past and this "we are one big gaming family. let's cuddle."-philosophy was harming the game more than helping and lead us to a downward spiral with the recent layoffs in spring. We haven't seen the end of GW2 that's for sure but I don't think the game or better said: the company can recover and be competitive & economic stable in the near future.

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@"xenon.3264" said:you have a strange idea of casual and even more on who really spend money. a casual would be more probably the one who spend real money cause he has no time to farm

I think the problem here is that there are two ways to split players using the word casual.Casual in the context of what content they want to playCasual in the context of not playing enough hours every week or dayThose can be used at the same time, but have completely different meaning, someone might like easy content and play 20 hours a day. Someone might like easy content and play 1 hour per month. Someone might not like easy content and prefer harder content, but play only a couple hours every week.

If the players farming the easy farms were the Raiders then the whole argument of "raiders are a minority" would evaporate, because the vast majority of the population is there, farming the easy farms, while the rest of the game suffers greatly by the lack of players. If all those dozens of LFG full squads were the raiders, then there would be zero reason to make easier modes for raids, or offer content outside raiding for the game. This means that those farming, making gold, and never spending any money to buy from the gem store, are actually casuals from the context of what kind of content they play.

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@Hex.8714 said:So quick recap on how to get into raids with 0 experience:step 1: get rid of your open world pve build and find a meta raid build that you like on snowcrows websitestep 2: practice the dps rotation on the golemstep 3: watch videos or guides of raid bosses then join semi exp/ training / non kp groupsstep 4: learn from your failures, as I said it will only take you 2-3 pulls to learn all boss mechanics

As someone who would like to get into raiding but hasn't I feel like giving my opinion here.

  1. Already a turn-off for me. That already feels incredibly oppressive to get into a part of the community that values potential dps higher than experience/fun. I'm running fresh air s/wh tempest which isn't the top dps build for my class but its not worthless either. However those few potential dps points difference are enough for groups to turn me down disregarding the fact that I've played that build since forever and have been playing ele since the first beta weekend thus beeing very comfortable with my class and likely to not make mistakes. If I were to just copy 'n paste some meta build which may or may not have a few % more potential damage I'll be more likely to make mistakes since I'm not as experienced with that build and will probably not do more damage than with my current build and there are many many many tier 2/3 builds or variants of tier 1/2/3 builds that drop just a few potential dps% but get rejected by the raid community anyway. I really hate that part of the raid community. What is wrong with sacrificing 5-10% dps for some fun and comfort while playing the game? I don't play gw2 to play the way someone else wants me to play the game, I have to carter to other peoples needs at work enough, I don't play games to turn them into chores. Sure, the raid will take 5-10 Minutes longer, so what? I'm not trying to get into a speedrun community, I'm trying to get into a different part of the game with a story that has been locked away from me, a part of tyria which I didn't get to explore yet, with mechanics I have yet to see.
  2. I've practiced the dps rotation of the build I enjoy for years, it may not be the perfect build but its the build I enjoy playing and as far as I can tell its not far off the top tier build's dps, I don't run a dps-meter so I unfortunatly can't drop any numbers here.
  3. I don't intend to become some sort of professional raider, I want to play raids for fun - I want to join a group, experience new content, fail, learn from our fails and progress step by step. who tf enjoys playing games after watching a walkthrough, thats like admitting failure before even having tried. Maybe that attitude comes from having grown up at a time where walkthroughs were sold as seperate booklets and only the most desperate would go out of their way to buy a walkthrough but I really hate having to look up solutions to an obstacle in games - as the Player Character I WANT to fail and overcome problems myself, thats what makes games fun. Looking up solutions isn't fun. Which is why the raid community seems like an incredibly unfun place to be in since everyone seems to be an incredible tryhard with no tolerance whatsoever (if you're part of the raiding community and still agree with me then I'm sorry for generalizing here).
  4. I wish I could but the failure tolerance in the raiding community (from my experience) seems to be 0. I've tried vale guardian 3 times, the first time I started the raid and just picked up a bunch of randoms that wanted to try it among those randoms were a couple raiders that kept telling us what we were doing wrong (unfortunatly in a not-very-nice-way) and kept insulting us every time something didn't go as planned and sure enough they left after just a couple minutes while some of us were still reading the conversation of the npc's. The second run, I joined a group that said newbees welcome but spoiler: newbees weren't welcome there. They asked me about my gear, I told them my gear and they kicked me because I ran superior rune of strength instead of scholar. And the third time I tried it I started it myself again but didn't even get to start - that was shortly after the tempest nerfs and the first guy that joined was nice enough to point that out, and kept pointing it out as well as telling everyone else what was wrong with their builds, needless to say no one was in the mood for raids anymore after that.

So really my biggest issue with raids isn't the raids which are, from what I can tell, barely harder than fractals which are pretty easy, but rather the community which has no tolerance but will seep into even casual groups and spread toxicity. So the only way for me to get into raiding is probably to find more and more friends in gw2 that aren't raiders already until I can fill a group with them.Or find a casual raiding guild, which apparently do exist but haven't found any yet.

I find it cute how many raiders consider themselves to be better at the game than non-raiders. But really what they're good at is speedrunning a specific part of the game (a very small part of the game). All they did was copy and paste a build that was optimized for that specific purpose and practice a rotation to get through some content as fast as possible. Resulting in a community that has apparently forgotten that raids can actually be played casually as well - there is no need to speedrun raids but that seems to have become the raiding meta.

tldr: Meta builds are a made-up requirement for raids - every raid is beatable with an organized group of players that know what they are doing as long as you have a well balanced team with a good composition of healers, dps and support/tank that you're comfortable with. But the raiding community turned raids into hardcore speedrunning content.

/rant over

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:You keep claiming you had no success with training runs or raids. I'm starting to doubt you've even ever participated in any, and if so, you might have been to set in your ways or resistant to advice. Training guilds don't let people fall through the cracks, most raid guilds accept players with open arms. They do might let people go who are a bad fit though if say the behavior of that person creates issues.

Here is an easy 1-step varification you can apply to grouping, just ask yourself: why should the other player(group of players) group with me?If any of the answers is along the line of: because we will have more fun together, we will overcome a challenge, he knows me, I've helped him in the past, he was looking for someone with my experience (or any attribute which was looked for which you met), etc. Then you are good and the group will likely result in everyone having fun.

If you answer though is: because I want to and I don't care what they want. Then your group is likely to fail and result in no productive gameplay.

I honestly have no idea why you think i'm some kind of frothing monster that it absolutely must be my behavior.... based only on your own experiences.

How am I supposed to "have success with training runs and raids" when no one will let me in? Like... that's literally the problem I'm having, and you're acting like I have a chance to behave badly? I join the discord or whatever, follow their rules and requests, and half the time it's stuff i'd never agree to. I don't make them change their rules for me but I'm not going to go fill out a job application or a personality quiz to play a game. Those days have passed.

Why should another player group with me? I dunno. I'd hope theyd be open to allowing other people to have fun and play the game, but that's literally why we're here, isn't it? People do fall through the cracks. I did. I refuse to lie to get in a group, I'm not going to fake proofs, I'm not trying to get carried, and you absolutely REFUSE to believe that someone could just have this much bad luck that they keep getting passed or get ignored or get looked over for another player. It must be nice to not have this happen to you.

I should probably point out that not one of you 'benevolent souls' even thought to offer help, obviously i must be some kind of troll or ill behaved child to have the gall to disagree with the ever philanthropic raiding community. You just want control over who sees content. Period.

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@"bravoart.5308" said:You just want control over who sees content. Period.

Yeah, of course and that's why there's a "Hey folks, this is how I got into raiding"-Thread on reddit every week.Come on dude, there are so many people that used community discords and training guilds and got into raiding. So, why can't you? Are you evaluating correcty and maybe don't try to get into already established groups? Look out for training guilds & groups!

This is one of those examples I found with a single 1s google search: https://rti.enjin.com/I also know some of their players from the past and they definitely do NOT lock you out in such communities.Or this one: https://snowcrows.com/raids/training/

So, either you are doing something wrong or your effort is just aweful together with an attitude that isn't helpful for mastering team content.

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@bravoart.5308 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:You keep claiming you had no success with training runs or raids. I'm starting to doubt you've even ever participated in any, and if so, you might have been to set in your ways or resistant to advice. Training guilds don't let people fall through the cracks, most raid guilds accept players with open arms. They do might let people go who are a bad fit though if say the behavior of that person creates issues.

Here is an easy 1-step varification you can apply to grouping, just ask yourself: why should the other player(group of players) group with me?
If any of the answers is along the line of: because we will have more fun together, we will overcome a challenge, he knows me, I've helped him in the past, he was looking for someone with my experience (or any attribute which was looked for which you met), etc. Then you are good and the group will likely result in everyone having fun.

If you answer though is: because I want to and I don't care what they want. Then your group is likely to fail and result in no productive gameplay.

I honestly have no idea why you think i'm some kind of frothing monster that it absolutely must be my behavior.... based only on your own experiences.

How am I supposed to "have success with training runs and raids" when no one will let me in? Like... that's literally the problem I'm having, and you're acting like I have a chance to behave badly? I join the discord or whatever, follow their rules and requests, and half the time it's stuff i'd never agree to. I don't make them change their rules for me but I'm not going to go fill out a job application or a personality quiz to play a game. Those days have passed.

I don't know you. I don't know what issues you face. I know how you address this topic and how you behave in this thread, that is it. The latter does not paint a picture of someone who is reflective or interested in actually acquiring knowledge.

I know how raid trainings work and how semi casual up to hardcore guilds work (since I am part of both groups and have been inbetween pretty much every step of the raid process). I know that any person with no social disability or over the top character flaws should have no issues getting into casual raid guilds or groups.

My semi casual guild regularly posts in map chat and we have walk ins and new players join constantly. Maybe we are the only guild who does this, maybe you are simply joining the wrong discords or guilds, because most of those I am in have absolute minimum requirements, if at all. Maybe you joined a more advanced guild and they have certain setups and registration requirements, I don't know and I don't care (my WvW guild discord certainly this as to ensure people who join are actually on the correct server).

@bravoart.5308 said:Why should another player group with me? I dunno. I'd hope theyd be open to allowing other people to have fun and play the game, but that's literally why we're here, isn't it? People do fall through the cracks. I did. I refuse to lie to get in a group, I'm not going to fake proofs, I'm not trying to get carried, and you absolutely REFUSE to believe that someone could just have this much bad luck that they keep getting passed or get ignored or get looked over for another player. It must be nice to not have this happen to you.

Yes, I too refuse to believe someone does have this amount of bad luck (though statistically it obviously can and will happen).

Maybe think more about what you can bring to someone else group, instead of what they bring to you. That is until you are making a group and people want to join you, which in turn means they should consider how they can benefit your group. That's the core of the issue actually, way to many people thinking about what they want without taking into account what other people in the group might want. Raids are a group effort, you either find 9 people who can work with you, or you do not raid.

@bravoart.5308 said:I should probably point out that not one of you 'benevolent souls' even thought to offer help, obviously i must be some kind of troll or ill behaved child to have the gall to disagree with the ever philanthropic raiding community. You just want control over who sees content. Period.

Honestly, after your tirade against raiders and your very constant blaming of others for your own failures, I wouldn't want you in any of my training runs, and I have offered people on the forums in the past to come practice (which was politely declined by the way the moment it was about what time they could do).

But it kind of paints a picture. What exactly is ANY ones motivation in this thread to ever invite you to their raid training? This topic is literally filled with:

  • people who have no or near no experience with raiding giving their 2 cents
  • very experienced raiders giving their 2 cents (not all of which are running raid trainings, and those who do certainly won't jump at someone with your attitude)
  • maybe 1 or 2 less experienced raiders who have shared their subjective experience

You are once again in the wrong place looking for people to group with.

I mentioned this in another thread, and it still applies. There is 2 types of players who want to raid and are currently not raiding:

  • those who are inexperienced and incompetent
  • those who are inexperienced and competent

For me personally, if someone fails at finding the correct guild or social circle with all the resources available to them (google, reddit, other people's experience on this issue, guides, etc.), I place them in group 1 and don't bother with them any longer. It is as many people as possible from group 2 that need to get supported and trained for raiding.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:Honestly, after your tirade against raiders and your very constant blaming of others for your own failures, I wouldn't want you in any of my training runs, and I have offered people on the forums in the past to come practice (which was politely declined by the way the moment it was about what time they could do).

How dare I point out that you're doing... exactly what you're doing. Truly so uncouth of me.

@Cyninja.2954 said:But it kind of paints a picture. What exactly is ANY ones motivation in this thread to ever invite you to their raid training? This topic is literally filled with:

  • people who have no or near no experience with raiding giving their 2 cents
  • very experienced raiders giving their 2 cents (not all of which are running raid trainings, and those who do certainly won't jump at someone with your attitude)
  • maybe 1 or 2 less experienced raiders who have shared their subjective experience

You are once again in the wrong place looking for people to group with.

I would like to change that second bullet to read -very experienced raiders who only seem to be capable of blaming people not currently in raiding for not being in raiding.

My "attitude"? Oh, you mean the fact that I'm unwilling to just let you make vapid excuses as to why it must be my fault, despite -oh- what is it you say here in your post "I don't know you" HMM. I'm not going to let someone just dismiss an actual problem that even the developers have recognized is an issue that is hurting the game, just so you can continue blindly enjoying whatever it is you do.

I'm not even here to find a group, you're just grasping at straws to find yet another reason as to why I should be excluded while feigning some moral high ground.

@Cyninja.2954 said:I mentioned this in another thread, and it still applies. There is 2 types of players who want to raid and are currently not raiding:

  • those who are inexperienced and incompetent
  • those who are inexperienced and competent

For me personally, if someone fails at finding the correct guild or social circle with all the resources available to them (google, reddit, other people's experience on this issue, guides, etc.), I place them in group 1 and don't bother with them any longer. It is as many people as possible from group 2 that need to get supported and trained for raiding.

If you're judging everyone that can't find a group as incompetent, you shouldn't be in charge in the first place. You are part of the problem.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:Yeah, of course and that's why there's a "Hey folks, this is how I got into raiding"-Thread on reddit every week.

Wow, one confirmed person gets into raiding a week, so impressive. I've tried all those methods, none of them worked. I feel like I've been blacklisted by the old TTT guilds from back when I disagreed that they shouldn't use a personality test to bar entry from people joining their Worm runs.

@Vinceman.4572 said:Come on dude, there are so many people that used community discords and training guilds and got into raiding. So, why can't you? Are you evaluating correcty and maybe don't try to get into already established groups? Look out for training guilds & groups!

I've followed all directions to the best of my ability, multiple times. I don't know what to say.

@Vinceman.4572 said:This is one of those examples I found with a single 1s google search: https://rti.enjin.com/I also know some of their players from the past and they definitely do NOT lock you out in such communities.Or this one: https://snowcrows.com/raids/training/

So, either you are doing something wrong or your effort is just aweful together with an attitude that isn't helpful for mastering team content.

Well for starters, I'm not EU, so I don't think joining an EU guild is the best start. So let's see that chops off... 75% of all the options I've already seen before that you've suggested again. (Usually at this point people find out I'm NA and then go "Oh, yeah. the raiding scene is poop on NA, I'm sorry.")

Also can you please stop trying to blame my attitude as if it has anything to do with capability to play a game? I'm perfectly polite and helpful in game, I've been in guilds competing for world first in harder games than this. You simply think I have an attitude problem because I'm disagreeing with the raiding community that seems to have no self-reflection on their actions.

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@"bravoart.5308" said:Wow, one confirmed person gets into raiding a week, so impressive. I've tried all those methods, none of them worked. I feel like I've been blacklisted by the old TTT guilds from back when I disagreed that they shouldn't use a personality test to bar entry from people joining their Worm runs.

We are talking about the ones who make the effort to open a reddit thread lots of wouldn't do due to various reasons. The fact those threads are there and welcomed by "gratz", "hi there fellow raider", "well done" and more shows that there are more than a couple of people caring and helping each other out a.k.a. a bigger part than elitism and toxicity which is present in all game modes as well and even more if we think about PvP or failing stuff in open world.

I've followed all directions to the best of my ability, multiple times. I don't know what to say.

Then maybe you're not made to raid (in GW2).

Well for starters, I'm not EU, so I don't think joining an EU guild is the best start. So let's see that chops off... 75% of all the options I've already seen before that you've suggested again. (Usually at this point people find out I'm NA and then go "Oh, yeah. the raiding scene is poop on NA, I'm sorry.")

There were currently (my google search) almost 2k active people online on the single NA discord server at a time where NA is usually sleeping. I doubt that NA is dead. Maybe it's worse there than in EU but far from dead.

Also can you please stop trying to blame my attitude as if it has anything to do with capability to play a game? I'm perfectly polite and helpful in game, I've been in guilds competing for world first in harder games than this. You simply think I have an attitude problem because I'm disagreeing with the raiding community that seems to have no self-reflection on their actions.

Yeah dude, but nothing is left but your attitude if you cannot make it into a couple of training runs (2-5, assumed you have enough play time) per week.

Funnily, we have read this several times now over years now:

"I've been in guilds competing for world first in harder games."If you are really that competent and skilled you'll have the easiest entry barrier than everyone else in this game who hasn't raided (hardcore) before. We can expect that you have 0 issues to learn (easy dps rotations), play the bannerslave or know how to handle a druid or an equivalent heal/support so all you need to find is a group willing to take you. According to your skills even groups with full wing clears of the easier ones would integrate you into their roster asap because I've trained complete raid beginners myself and trained them to constant raiders with at least decent skill. It wouldn't be a big deal for them and actually a very welcomed thing.As a veteran raider you should be packed with everything you need to be a successful raider in GW2: Willingness to adapt, skilled enough, social competent to hold schedules and to be nice and helpful to others and frustration tolerance.Time to look or make an own post here:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/categories/looking-for-guildIt's very up-to-date and even in the forum of my native language the activity is so high for not having a problem to find a raiding guild within 2 weeks.

Seriously, if you can't make it into GW2 raiding this part of the game isn't made for you. Period.

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@TwilightSoul.9048 said:

@"Hex.8714" said:

tldr: Meta builds are a made-up requirement for raids - every raid is beatable with an organized group of players that know what they are doing as long as you have a well balanced team with a good composition of healers, dps and support/tank that you're comfortable with. But the raiding community turned raids into hardcore speedrunning content.

Sure, but are you saying that if people weren't this selective, each party would found a proper balance, good player knowing both strat AND having a proper build (not meta) and the dps to stick to the actual timer ?

From what I have seen, without a party dealing at least 15k dps from the 5/7 dps, we cant make any raid-boss fall. In fractal you have all the time you want and no real difficulty exept some rare boss having "special" mechanic. In raid, each boss have a special move-set, animation, some demand special role to make it easier etc...I doubt your ranger classic with longbow and soldier stat will make it throught. I doubt your necromant minion master in grieving stats will do much.Yes, overplaying the "meta" card isn't effective either, but the meta isn't there for no reason.

If players werent a minimum "elistist" no raid would be accomplished. (at least from my thought.)

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The problem is that MMO developers refuse to move on from the conservative view that Raids HAVE TO BE HIGHER DIFFICULTY.... Instead of making Raids of both casual like Dungeons and Hardcore like traditional Old School Hardcore WoW Raids.

Strike Missions is a prime example of this in action. I want 10 man casual dungeons with good mechanics but not Raid difficulty because I don't want to have to rely on dedicated Raid Guilds and the drama that comes with that. I had fun in the recent strike mission just would like better boss fights in general and some dungeon mobs and it's good for me.

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The main barrier is not having already memorized the raid and boss mechanics and the new player dies. No one likes that.

Arenanet could create an option when joining a raid that allows a player to sacrifice some of the raid reward for the ability to respawn while the group is in combat. That way, if your computer glitches, ping times get too long, or you are just too new, your dps loss will only be temporary. Punishing the entire raid group for taking a person who lacks experience or a adequate hardware and internet is unfair.

Allow people who are learning the mechanics, learning a profession, or have some other difficulty a choice to sacrifice some of the reward to respawn and rejoin the group. That should greatly reduce the chance of a party-wipe and hard feelings from all involved.

The original post looked a lot like, "Git gud with a meta-build and memorize the raid mechanics. Then you can join with no experience." This is not "0 experience" by any measure and there are time and gold costs to make one of those dps meta-builds. To me, that sends the wrong message and misses the real point: It is party-wipes that players want to avoid, even when learning a new raid, not some sub-par dps. A lot of these comments show that people on both sides of the argument are not willing to compromise so it is no surprise the debate continues like this. The issue is not the players' fault but Arenanet's for creating a divisive structure when they did not actually have to do that.

Like I suggested above, Arenanet could ask a player joining a raid to check a box if they want a chance at full rewards or not for the ability to respawn and get back into the raid. Squad leaders could have the choice of setting that up for the whole group, too. This is not that difficult a problem to address but Arenanet is just being stubborn.

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I'm one of the people who tried to get into raids and failed. I failed, because the ratio between time spent with the whole work required to actually get in front of a raid boss and the time actually being in combat is too much to non-combat for me.

The major time investment is waiting for other people. Waiting for groups constituting (if joining raiding guilds for training), waiting for groups to fill via lfg (if you start out with a not already full group). Then waiting for everybody joining, then waiting for everybody getting ready. Waiting for someone to explain the mechanics to someone who failed to watch a video. Every other failed attempt, someone leaves and we restart with waiting for the group to fill again. Promising and successful groups dissolve after the first successful kill, although just then you could go on to the next boss or try again for training purposes.This waiting is vastly longer than for any other content.

The ratio between actual time in combat and waiting is about 1/5, i. e. for every minute in combat you spend 5 minutes doing nothing. That's boring and not what I play games for. This waiting is not what I expect from gaming. It's not fun.Also not fun is that you almost always fail and don't have the feeling of success during training. That's frustrating, and I don't games for frustration.The third thing not being fun is that you have to learn a major part of the raids by not playing the game. You need to study youtube videos, you need to study raid builds, you need to grind at the raid golem for your perfect rotation you cannot use at any real boss anyway, since there are quite many distractions. If you don't study youtube videos, you fail mechanics, and since the mechanics are instant-fail, you make your group fail, which is not fun.

In the end I left raiding, because I don't want to spend so much time with waiting. And because I feel bad if I am responsible for the group failing if I fail some mechanics. This responsibility would not feel so hard, if the impact of failing would not be so bad. But every fail gives a huge waiting-time penalty.

I am all in favor of an easier mode for raids. It would show you around, so you are able to observe the surroundings and the combat. In the real raid, you are not able to observe anything. In the real raid, you fight for survival, for not failing any mechanics, and for your rotation. Only one fail by one of the team members and it's interrupted and you have to start over. If mechanics were more forgiving in an easy mode, the experience would not be interrupted and could continue. Not waiting again. Currently, you do the observation with youtube videos, but that's vastly inferior to doing it yourself. It would also give you the feeling of success, since in an easier mode you would probably be able to actually kill something in combat.

Is an easier mode wasted development time? No. Regular raid players are a very small part of the gamers. For these, an easier mode would be of no use, accepted. But for the large part of the players who aren't able to set foot into a raid area, or specialized only to the 2-3 easiest raid bosses, it would open a whole new world of instanced combat. For these, it would be a 20, 30? (I don't know the actual number of encounters) new combat situations instantly. Everything is already in place, you "only" need to nerf the actual combat (and the rewards, of course). Which is much less development time I suppose than to create whole new contents for the LS, which has probably less replay value than instanced content.

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@"Shikaru.7618" said:

  1. Change my build, what's wrong with my build? Its worked for me this far. I've beaten story and literally all open world with it. Its fine as is. I don't want to run some cookie cutter build someone else made.
  2. Sounds pretty boring to me. Let me fight the boss.
  3. Would rather just play the game.
  4. Raids are too hard. I've been fine with the game so far why are raids just gimmicks and cheese fests to create artificial difficulty?

Those are actual responses I've heard on this forum.

There is definitely some truth to what you say. There are several factors responsible - and these are also why we can't simply wipe these things off the table.The game suggests that you pick the character you want to play. Not the character someone else wants you to play. Not the character, that the group needs. The character you want to play.

And then the game teaches you in openworld PvE, when following the story, that you're well off doing this. You play a buffbot? You probably won't be getting out that much from the game, because there might not be anyone for you to buff, or someone who doesn't need your buff. So you're facing a paradigm change, and there's no ramp-up to this paradigm change. Your PvE build is quite likely not very good for raids or CM fractals.What makes things worse is, that you don't just have to change builds, you also need to look at your equipment; gearing up costs quite some gold and the process isn't really that straightforward. Some pieces you can buy, some pieces you can craft, you have to research stuff on the wiki. It's not really hard, but it can be tedious to gather all the information needed.

I know some of this from my own experience. With my currently preferred character I do very well in fractals (including T4, even 99 and 100, but not the CM!), in openworld PvE and in WvW. Of course I change the traits I use depending on the situation, but generally the playstyle I aim for works very well - it does not suit me well in CM fractals though! The damage is not high enough to do what I need to do in the role a character this class should be fulfilling. However simply changing traitlines and traits, powers and playstyle does not suffice: Together with that change comes a paradigm change: I share more buffs with others so that their stuff works better (which is great!), but I also need to rely on stuff other players do so I can actually get my damage down. And I need to perform better.So saying "this isn't really hard" is maybe not true from certain people's perspective. But from the perspective of a casual (or someone between a WvW meta and a castual) this is hard. I have yet to succesfully complete a CM fractal. I have yet to succesfully complete a raid. To me this feels hard.This paradigm change, and the costs in terms of investing time to learn rotations and research, investing gold, is probably what sets players off.

.... and the fact that this whole idea of specific professions or specs being locked into very specific roles for certain game features (especially when the game taught you before, that you can do anything) ... those are design patterns that throw people off, and even more so, when there is no ramp-up to this paradigm change.

Arenanet, this is something you should think about. All professions, every spec, should add something valuable to a group - something other than just damage. And you really should be thinking about how to ramp-up players to such a drastic paradigm shift as the one your're facing when going from openworld PvE to hardcore content.

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@Knighthonor.4061 said:Strike Missions is a prime example of this in action. I want 10 man casual dungeons with good mechanics but not Raid difficulty because I don't want to have to rely on dedicated Raid Guilds and the drama that comes with that. I had fun in the recent strike mission just would like better boss fights in general and some dungeon mobs and it's good for me.

The problem is the Strike Mission we got is not 10 man content and lacks any mechanics. It's less challenging even than dungeons/T1 fractals, or Freezie from Wintersday. That's just bad

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Strike Missions is a prime example of this in action. I want 10 man casual dungeons with good mechanics but not Raid difficulty because I don't want to have to rely on dedicated Raid Guilds and the drama that comes with that. I had fun in the recent strike mission just would like better boss fights in general and some dungeon mobs and it's good for me.

The problem is the Strike Mission we got is not 10 man content and lacks any mechanics. It's less challenging even than dungeons/T1 fractals, or Freezie from Wintersday. That's just badYes, we would need more freezies. But also we would need better rewards for those freezies than freezie had - by the time the wintersday was ending, almost noone was doing him anymore, because even at that level of difficulty it simply wasn't worth to repeat that fight more than a few times.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Strike Missions is a prime example of this in action. I want 10 man casual dungeons with good mechanics but not Raid difficulty because I don't want to have to rely on dedicated Raid Guilds and the drama that comes with that. I had fun in the recent strike mission just would like better boss fights in general and some dungeon mobs and it's good for me.

The problem is the Strike Mission we got is not 10 man content and lacks any mechanics. It's less challenging even than dungeons/T1 fractals, or Freezie from Wintersday. That's just bad

Actually, for most of the people in the game, that's exactly what they want. It's not 'bad' if Strike missions don't mimic raids ... it's a blessing. I'm still reserving judgement until I do some, but if it's just repackaged raids, it's going to be no more popular than current raids, because people just aren't that easily fooled.

Anet needs to find whatever that middle ground is between low level fractals/dungeons and raids; 'mini-raids' isn't it.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Strike Missions is a prime example of this in action. I want 10 man casual dungeons with good mechanics but not Raid difficulty because I don't want to have to rely on dedicated Raid Guilds and the drama that comes with that. I had fun in the recent strike mission just would like better boss fights in general and some dungeon mobs and it's good for me.

The problem is the Strike Mission we got is not 10 man content and lacks any mechanics. It's less challenging even than dungeons/T1 fractals, or Freezie from Wintersday. That's just bad

Unless they have each strike mission become a little bit harder than the previous one.

Then it becomes a good way to get people into raids who don't just want to jump into the deep end.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, for most of the people in the game, that's exactly what they want. It's not 'bad' if Strike missions don't mimic raids ... it's a blessing.

Hm, I don't know. I'm really happy to have something close to a small dungeon spawning out of nowhere from Anet, but yeah it's just really easy. For this one, it's really just a straight line until you found the boss, then it's melee=> spam 1.I tried it solo the first time as it was bugged and no one could join. I've done 50%+ all alone (so until second phase, as a tempest dps.) for me, it talk for itself and not in the good way. :/

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@"Hex.8714" said:Those people that are complaining that raids are too difficult and too inaccessible and elitist simply dont want to make any effort on their end and they just want to join raids with their open world pve build and expect to get carried. The truth is gw2 raids are extremly easy and can be completed with literally 1000 ping because theres very few one shot attacks that will insta kill you like in some other games, its just mini mechanics that you have to know to not wipe the group. Raids do not require much mechanical skill at all, so even " bad players" can complete them easely especially with meta boon stacked comps + 2 healers, i repeat you dont need skill to do raids in gw2.

So how do you get into raids with 0 experience? Well first of all you need to at least make yourself useful and pick a role that will help your group, joining raids isint much about you but about the group, how can you make yourself useful? The easiest role is DPS, you want to pick a meta build from snowcrows website and learn the rotation on the golem. Most classes have a viable dps build, if your class isint a top tier dps, it can surely have another role like boons/heals. Then you simply wait till a group asks for that specific role on the lfg. If you can multi class and gear up multiple chars you will find a group alot faster.

Then you want to watch some video guides of boss encounters or if you are too lazy like me, you can join groups that say semi+ exp or dont ask for KP. Now listen to this, this is very important what im gonna say, it only takes literally about 3 wipes for you to learn all boss mechanics assuming you get it at least to 50%, 25% or 10% depending on the boss. The scary part is only the initial part when you re totally clueless, after 3 pulls you wont be clueless anymore, dont be afraid to join groups.

What happens if you get kicked? Nothing happens, dont try to whisper the commander and dont be mad just join another group, as I said it only takes 2-3 pulls for you to learn. I rarely see people getting kicked, some people tell some total bs stories that I ve never seen myself of heard of. Ive literally played a DPS class with with some rare pieces for the first 3 weeks and only got kicked once because it was SH and I was playing power DPS instead of condi. Most grps wont kick you for bad dps, they will only kick if you wipe the group, like dropping poison on grp at matt or bombing group at dhum etc.

Another easy way to get into raids is just to always keep an eye on lfg for training groups but you might have to wait a long time for that for the specific raid that you want, id suggest just joining the semi exp ones or the ones that dont ask for KP assuming you did some research about the mechanics.

Then obviously people ask how do they find groups when they have the experience but dont have much KP. You can either be honest with the commander and tell them you are a good player and to give you a chance and if you mess up tell them to feel free to kick you out. Or you can use fake KP like alot of people do since lets be real nobody carries all boss tokens on all their characters. Id suggest using fake KP only if you can do close to SC benchmark and are a good player otherwise it will be too obvious, just be honest and try to not join super high KP grps until you have some or until you get more experience.

So quick recap on how to get into raids with 0 experience:step 1: get rid of your open world pve build and find a meta raid build that you like on snowcrows websitestep 2: practice the dps rotation on the golemstep 3: watch videos or guides of raid bosses then join semi exp/ training / non kp groupsstep 4: learn from your failures, as I said it will only take you 2-3 pulls to learn all boss mechanics

Gw2 raids are easy, people are just lazy and dont want to adapt or change their build, obviously some players are just bad but they dont want to admit but the majority are just too lazy, I was even too lazy to watch any guides I would just join and hope for the best, it still ended up working because gw2 raids are a joke. So dont be afraid to try, theres nothing elite or hardcore about raids, the truth is hardcore players dont play this game. Have fun in raids.

Dude theres just so much wrong with this i don't even know where to begin. Sloth stomp is a practical 1 shot mechanic. I've been working on my gear set for months (diviners) and how often do you actually see training runs in LFG? This is me just skimming as this really comes across as an elitist chew out. How about you make a youtube documentary on a completely new account with nothing you have now trying to do a role that uses concentration stats without being carried? And don't cut out any of the time you spend waiting for a training run to pop.

Also i have plenty experience raiding in other games and can tell you that both the amount of time it takes to get the appropriate gear for the core roles (boon support (tank or dps) and healing support) is way too long and the amount of mechanics for non challenge mode raids is way too high. The issue i'm seeing stepping into them is they were designed for very experienced, bored players even at base level and it's not aging well as churn is happening in the player base. The challenge modes should be for elitists' satisfaction and normal modes should be doable in readily purchasable exotic gear with coherent stats (i.e stacks a damage trinity, toughness or healing). Kiss this game mode good bye with that attitude as it gradually rots even more.

Also the LFG tool doesn't even give players enough control over their party. You have no idea when forming a group if a player even has the stats necessary for the role they're playing, let alone keep them out as you can just join anything you want. If you weren't playing a +concentration build you were being carried by people who did more work than you. Congrats!

I also want to argue that raiding isn't aging well in MMOs across the board. It was supposed to be a learning experience for a guild or group of players to tackle together back in early wow/eq days, you didn't have all these content creators giving you the strategy for every encounter and the roflstomp optimizations. Now raiding, as you've even acknowledged is basically homework: read all this crap, watch this video too many times then you can finally play the game. When i played in early wow i was working on my builds amd strategies in game. The last map of the previous lw season feels more like raiding is supposed to be because it actually requires players working together in game instead of memorizing a bunch of home work.

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