Mesmers should not have stealth — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Professions Mesmer

Mesmers should not have stealth

ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

Stealth makes mesmers confusing beyond what is healthy for the game, it makes them nothing more thieves with more confusing spells. Mesmers should rely on illusions, not stealth.

Comments

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    Elementalists shouldn't be able to attune to so many different elements for a weapon. It makes their variety confusing beyond what is healthy for the game.

    Think about it. Everyone gets 5 skills per weapon with two weapons for 10 skills total. Elementalists get 4 DIFFERENT SETS OF 5 FOR 20 SKILLS!!!!!!
    This gives them twice as much variety as other classes. It makes them no more then Necros with even more confusing spells.

    This should be toned down to no more then 3 elements as it is still 50% more weapon variety then other classes.
    Anything more is far too confusing and unhealthy for the game!

  • Castiel.9048Castiel.9048 Member ✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    Elementalists shouldn't be able to attune to so many different elements for a weapon. It makes their variety confusing beyond what is healthy for the game.

    Think about it. Everyone gets 5 skills per weapon with two weapons for 10 skills total. Elementalists get 4 DIFFERENT SETS OF 5 FOR 20 SKILLS!!!!!!
    This gives them twice as much variety as other classes. It makes them no more then Necros with even more confusing spells.

    This should be toned down to no more then 3 elements as it is still 50% more weapon variety then other classes.
    Anything more is far too confusing and unhealthy for the game!

    Quality over quantity. You are also supporting the argument because Elementalists would love nothing more than to blindly press 1/F1 skills and be meta like so many builds today. Instead we have to be Mozart. Furthermore, we have no weapon swap to balance the quantity, which is debatable.

    But sadly, Elementalists have no reveal so your argument is weak.
    So yes, please remove stealth from Mesmers .

  • Stealth should not be on game at all, it's a idiot mechanic that ruins every game it is on, this is especially true on gw2 a game that runs stealth without any drawback.

    That being said this is a l2p issue, no one has any problem detecting the real mesmer.

    As for ele Mozart stuff, as someone that plays ele as a second profession, more buttons!= harder to play.
    The only ele build that requires some skill degree is FA, apart from that is leaps easier than mesmer.

    The degenerate

  • Exaggerations should be limited.
    As someone that plays Ele as a primary profession, I didn't state that more buttons = harder to play.
    I stated that we have to be Mozart because we have to constantly attune to maximize the respective attributes needed for an encounter.
    This is def. not required for other professions, and by far requires more thought and planning than Mesmer, which I play tertiary.
    Leaps. Interesting.

    Stealth should have a reveal cooldown, such as when once attacked or skill executed, stealth cannot be cleared until encounter is over.

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    @Castiel.9048 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    Elementalists shouldn't be able to attune to so many different elements for a weapon. It makes their variety confusing beyond what is healthy for the game.

    Think about it. Everyone gets 5 skills per weapon with two weapons for 10 skills total. Elementalists get 4 DIFFERENT SETS OF 5 FOR 20 SKILLS!!!!!!
    This gives them twice as much variety as other classes. It makes them no more then Necros with even more confusing spells.

    This should be toned down to no more then 3 elements as it is still 50% more weapon variety then other classes.
    Anything more is far too confusing and unhealthy for the game!

    Quality over quantity. You are also supporting the argument because Elementalists would love nothing more than to blindly press 1/F1 skills and be meta like so many builds today. Instead we have to be Mozart. Furthermore, we have no weapon swap to balance the quantity, which is debatable.

    But sadly, Elementalists have no reveal so your argument is weak.
    So yes, please remove stealth from Mesmers .

    Nope, even without weapon swap, ele still has 2x the amount of weapon skill variation and mesmers absolutely can not prevent eles from switching atunements, can they?

    Note: I obviously wrote my first post to show how absurd the OP's post is without quantifiable data to back up such accusations. I only brought up ele since the OP has recently created a post asking for eles to be buffed. If you don't like people asking for ele to be nerfed, then start complaining about the actual types of arguments being used, regardless of what class such argument is used for or against. A bad argument with out evidence is never good, not matter what it is used for. . . . . period.

  • Castiel.9048Castiel.9048 Member ✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @Castiel.9048 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    Elementalists shouldn't be able to attune to so many different elements for a weapon. It makes their variety confusing beyond what is healthy for the game.

    Think about it. Everyone gets 5 skills per weapon with two weapons for 10 skills total. Elementalists get 4 DIFFERENT SETS OF 5 FOR 20 SKILLS!!!!!!
    This gives them twice as much variety as other classes. It makes them no more then Necros with even more confusing spells.

    This should be toned down to no more then 3 elements as it is still 50% more weapon variety then other classes.
    Anything more is far too confusing and unhealthy for the game!

    Quality over quantity. You are also supporting the argument because Elementalists would love nothing more than to blindly press 1/F1 skills and be meta like so many builds today. Instead we have to be Mozart. Furthermore, we have no weapon swap to balance the quantity, which is debatable.

    But sadly, Elementalists have no reveal so your argument is weak.
    So yes, please remove stealth from Mesmers .

    Nope, even without weapon swap, ele still has 2x the amount of weapon skill variation and mesmers absolutely can not prevent eles from switching atunements, can they?

    Note: I obviously wrote my first post to show how absurd the OP's post is without quantifiable data to back up such accusations. I only brought up ele since the OP has recently created a post asking for eles to be buffed. If you don't like people asking for ele to be nerfed, then start complaining about the actual types of arguments being used, regardless of what class such argument is used for or against. A bad argument with out evidence is never good, not matter what it is used for. . . . . period.

    This is difficult as I feel like I am hitting a soundboard, but I'll just emphasize some enjoyable interest.
    Mesmers have 2x the battle variations and eles absolutely can not prevent mesmers from switching weapons, can they?

    Note: Stealth is a hot topic right now. Check the PVP forums. OP has a good thought to try to reshape the applicability of stealth around the profession. This has nothing about nerfing, just simple facts against a bad argument....period.

  • SoulSlavocracy.4902SoulSlavocracy.4902 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    @Castiel.9048 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    Elementalists shouldn't be able to attune to so many different elements for a weapon. It makes their variety confusing beyond what is healthy for the game.

    Think about it. Everyone gets 5 skills per weapon with two weapons for 10 skills total. Elementalists get 4 DIFFERENT SETS OF 5 FOR 20 SKILLS!!!!!!
    This gives them twice as much variety as other classes. It makes them no more then Necros with even more confusing spells.

    This should be toned down to no more then 3 elements as it is still 50% more weapon variety then other classes.
    Anything more is far too confusing and unhealthy for the game!

    Quality over quantity. You are also supporting the argument because Elementalists would love nothing more than to blindly press 1/F1 skills and be meta like so many builds today. Instead we have to be Mozart. Furthermore, we have no weapon swap to balance the quantity, which is debatable.

    But sadly, Elementalists have no reveal so your argument is weak.
    So yes, please remove stealth from Mesmers .

    edit: see my response below. My bad.


    Amen. A complete non-sequitur about elementalist that has nothing to do with the problems surrounding Mesmer class.
    Not only that but a weak argument as well - ele is pretty hard, in general at least. It's easy to be mediocre at tho. So a lot of reasonably talented players end up wrongly assuming that they know what they're talking about after playing ele for a total of 200 hours or less. Some people are really terrible in one regard though - the ones who play for many, many hours, but still don't understand and want to enforce their wrong opinion on everyone else. I don't know if this is what it is at play here but it's something I like to remind people to keep in mind when assessing responses like these.

    Back on subject.
    Does mesmer need stealth to be removed?

    I think mesmer needs less f****** clone builds. The clone generation (edit: overall/general) is fine but niche builds that can generate WAY TOO MANY are, well ... generating way too many

    | Solemn [DoM][Fw][PAL][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Castiel.9048 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    Elementalists shouldn't be able to attune to so many different elements for a weapon. It makes their variety confusing beyond what is healthy for the game.

    Think about it. Everyone gets 5 skills per weapon with two weapons for 10 skills total. Elementalists get 4 DIFFERENT SETS OF 5 FOR 20 SKILLS!!!!!!
    This gives them twice as much variety as other classes. It makes them no more then Necros with even more confusing spells.

    This should be toned down to no more then 3 elements as it is still 50% more weapon variety then other classes.
    Anything more is far too confusing and unhealthy for the game!

    Quality over quantity. You are also supporting the argument because Elementalists would love nothing more than to blindly press 1/F1 skills and be meta like so many builds today. Instead we have to be Mozart. Furthermore, we have no weapon swap to balance the quantity, which is debatable.

    But sadly, Elementalists have no reveal so your argument is weak.
    So yes, please remove stealth from Mesmers .

    Amen.
    A complete non-sequitur about elementalist that has nothing to do with the problems surrounding Mesmer class.
    Not only that but a weak argument as well - ele is pretty hard, in general at least. It's easy to be mediocre at tho. So a lot of reasonably talented players end up wrongly assuming that they know what they're talking about after playing ele for a total of 200 hours or less. Some people are really terrible in one regard though - the ones who play for many, many hours, but still don't understand and want to enforce their wrong opinion on everyone else. I don't know if this is what it is at play here but it's something I like to remind people to keep in mind when assessing responses like these.

    Back on subject.
    Does mesmer need stealth to be removed?

    I think mesmer needs less f****** clone builds. The clone generation (edit: overall/general) is fine but niche builds that can generate WAY TOO MANY are, well ... generating way too many

    Once again, I know it is non-sequitur. That is why I said it, to show how the Op's initial argument reasons are flawed by simplifying the argument just to what they said.

    Stealth is not a thief only mechanic. Their mechanic is initiative and steal. That is why mesmer has had some stealth since launch and why ranger and scrapper have stealth.

    p.s. I explained that that argument was supposed to be absurd on purpose as explained in the note section of my last post before yours. However, I can understand if you missed it.

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭

    @Castiel.9048 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @Castiel.9048 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    Elementalists shouldn't be able to attune to so many different elements for a weapon. It makes their variety confusing beyond what is healthy for the game.

    Think about it. Everyone gets 5 skills per weapon with two weapons for 10 skills total. Elementalists get 4 DIFFERENT SETS OF 5 FOR 20 SKILLS!!!!!!
    This gives them twice as much variety as other classes. It makes them no more then Necros with even more confusing spells.

    This should be toned down to no more then 3 elements as it is still 50% more weapon variety then other classes.
    Anything more is far too confusing and unhealthy for the game!

    Quality over quantity. You are also supporting the argument because Elementalists would love nothing more than to blindly press 1/F1 skills and be meta like so many builds today. Instead we have to be Mozart. Furthermore, we have no weapon swap to balance the quantity, which is debatable.

    But sadly, Elementalists have no reveal so your argument is weak.
    So yes, please remove stealth from Mesmers .

    Nope, even without weapon swap, ele still has 2x the amount of weapon skill variation and mesmers absolutely can not prevent eles from switching atunements, can they?

    Note: I obviously wrote my first post to show how absurd the OP's post is without quantifiable data to back up such accusations. I only brought up ele since the OP has recently created a post asking for eles to be buffed. If you don't like people asking for ele to be nerfed, then start complaining about the actual types of arguments being used, regardless of what class such argument is used for or against. A bad argument with out evidence is never good, not matter what it is used for. . . . . period.

    This is difficult as I feel like I am hitting a soundboard, but I'll just emphasize some enjoyable interest.
    Mesmers have 2x the battle variations and eles absolutely can not prevent mesmers from switching weapons, can they?

    Note: Stealth is a hot topic right now. Check the PVP forums. OP has a good thought to try to reshape the applicability of stealth around the profession. This has nothing about nerfing, just simple facts against a bad argument....period.

    "Mesmers have 2x the battle variations"??
    Prove it, don't just tell me. You think mesmer have 2x the battle variations or whatever that means then give me the numbers.
    Stealth has reveal and you still take damage in stealth. This is counterplay.
    If you have a problem specifically with ele and stealth, then why not ask for a reveal skill on ele?

  • @Xstein.2187 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Castiel.9048 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    Elementalists shouldn't be able to attune to so many different elements for a weapon. It makes their variety confusing beyond what is healthy for the game.

    Think about it. Everyone gets 5 skills per weapon with two weapons for 10 skills total. Elementalists get 4 DIFFERENT SETS OF 5 FOR 20 SKILLS!!!!!!
    This gives them twice as much variety as other classes. It makes them no more then Necros with even more confusing spells.

    This should be toned down to no more then 3 elements as it is still 50% more weapon variety then other classes.
    Anything more is far too confusing and unhealthy for the game!

    Quality over quantity. You are also supporting the argument because Elementalists would love nothing more than to blindly press 1/F1 skills and be meta like so many builds today. Instead we have to be Mozart. Furthermore, we have no weapon swap to balance the quantity, which is debatable.

    But sadly, Elementalists have no reveal so your argument is weak.
    So yes, please remove stealth from Mesmers .

    Amen.
    A complete non-sequitur about elementalist that has nothing to do with the problems surrounding Mesmer class.
    Not only that but a weak argument as well - ele is pretty hard, in general at least. It's easy to be mediocre at tho. So a lot of reasonably talented players end up wrongly assuming that they know what they're talking about after playing ele for a total of 200 hours or less. Some people are really terrible in one regard though - the ones who play for many, many hours, but still don't understand and want to enforce their wrong opinion on everyone else. I don't know if this is what it is at play here but it's something I like to remind people to keep in mind when assessing responses like these.

    Back on subject.
    Does mesmer need stealth to be removed?

    I think mesmer needs less f****** clone builds. The clone generation (edit: overall/general) is fine but niche builds that can generate WAY TOO MANY are, well ... generating way too many

    No kitten sherlock, once again, I know it is non-sequitur. That is why I made it, to show how the Op's initial argument reasons are flawed by simplifying the argument just to what they said.

    Stealth is not a thief only mechanic. Their mechanic is initiative and steal. That is why mesmer has had some stealth since launch and why ranger and scrapper have stealth. It is almost like 75% of people on the forums don't know how to read or tell when someone is being sarcastic.

    Dude, be an adult and be straight with people. Your disrespect is wasting everyone's time and making things more hostile.


    Personally I don't much like stealth in this game. It is way too binary, and easily waltzes into OP territory. However, I recognize that it is necessary for mesmers to be duplicitous. If mesmers didn't have a way to disappear, then all they would be is weaker battlemages that make ignore-able doppelgangers. To get rid of stealth, you'd have to make it so mesmers randomly swap position with their clones whenever they'd use one of these stealth skills (a la mirage deceptions), which would be jarring to play and hard to manage.

    As much as I don't like stealth, the game is built around it. For better or worse, stealth is here to stay.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Castiel.9048 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    Elementalists shouldn't be able to attune to so many different elements for a weapon. It makes their variety confusing beyond what is healthy for the game.

    Think about it. Everyone gets 5 skills per weapon with two weapons for 10 skills total. Elementalists get 4 DIFFERENT SETS OF 5 FOR 20 SKILLS!!!!!!
    This gives them twice as much variety as other classes. It makes them no more then Necros with even more confusing spells.

    This should be toned down to no more then 3 elements as it is still 50% more weapon variety then other classes.
    Anything more is far too confusing and unhealthy for the game!

    Quality over quantity. You are also supporting the argument because Elementalists would love nothing more than to blindly press 1/F1 skills and be meta like so many builds today. Instead we have to be Mozart. Furthermore, we have no weapon swap to balance the quantity, which is debatable.

    But sadly, Elementalists have no reveal so your argument is weak.
    So yes, please remove stealth from Mesmers .

    Amen.
    A complete non-sequitur about elementalist that has nothing to do with the problems surrounding Mesmer class.
    Not only that but a weak argument as well - ele is pretty hard, in general at least. It's easy to be mediocre at tho. So a lot of reasonably talented players end up wrongly assuming that they know what they're talking about after playing ele for a total of 200 hours or less. Some people are really terrible in one regard though - the ones who play for many, many hours, but still don't understand and want to enforce their wrong opinion on everyone else. I don't know if this is what it is at play here but it's something I like to remind people to keep in mind when assessing responses like these.

    Back on subject.
    Does mesmer need stealth to be removed?

    I think mesmer needs less f****** clone builds. The clone generation (edit: overall/general) is fine but niche builds that can generate WAY TOO MANY are, well ... generating way too many

    No kitten sherlock, once again, I know it is non-sequitur. That is why I made it, to show how the Op's initial argument reasons are flawed by simplifying the argument just to what they said.

    Stealth is not a thief only mechanic. Their mechanic is initiative and steal. That is why mesmer has had some stealth since launch and why ranger and scrapper have stealth. It is almost like 75% of people on the forums don't know how to read or tell when someone is being sarcastic.

    Dude, be an adult and be straight with people. Your disrespect is wasting everyone's time and making things more hostile.


    Personally I don't much like stealth in this game. It is way too binary, and easily waltzes into OP territory. However, I recognize that it is necessary for mesmers to be duplicitous. If mesmers didn't have a way to disappear, then all they would be is weaker battlemages that make ignore-able doppelgangers. To get rid of stealth, you'd have to make it so mesmers randomly swap position with their clones whenever they'd use one of these stealth skills (a la mirage deceptions), which would be jarring to play and hard to manage.

    As much as I don't like stealth, the game is built around it. For better or worse, stealth is here to stay.

    I appologize. @SoulSlavocracy.4902 Sorry, I just got frustrated since you called my argument non-sequitur when I wrote before you posted that it was meant to be that way on purpose and what the meaning behind saying it was. It was also frustrating when multiple people misinterpreted it in the first place.

    I also admit that I get frustrated when people have argued until once mesmer only mechanics like alacrity and portal were given to other classes and then others pop in and say another mechanic that mesmer has had since launch should now be thief only. It feels like a another big wad of spit on the face when it feels like mesmer has been kicked around for months already (by kicked around, I'm not talking about OPness for which it rightfully deserved, but about loosing build and trait variety, nerfs to some core traits caused by specializations, some traits becoming useless, and revamps of chrono that made it once again the only class that can't use it's special mechanic except in very specific circumstances, eps in WvW).

    I also realize that some people become frustrated by stealth or confused. However, it is stated on the website on the mesmer class description that, "They weave deception magic that seeks to confound, disorient and dumbfound their enemies." Additionally, I feel like confusions, discernment, and targeting abilities are all qualities that people can become better at and improve as players. Therefore, I believe they make for good skill ceilings to strive for.

    This is the play style I have enjoyed playing on gw2 for many years from all the highs and lows. If you think a specific mesmer build is OP, I think that is a worthy discussion. You think stealth is OP or doesn't have enough counter play? I think that is a worthy discussion. However, plz consider that some people have enjoyed this confusion oriented play style for many years, regardless of how OP or non-OP some builds have been. Therefore, plz don't specifically target mesmers about a multi-class skill mechanic simply due to its play style. Lets plz keep those distinguishments separate.

    However, additionally if you think this is the case, plz treat all classes equally that have stealth: thief, engi, ranger, etc.
    Thank you,

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Castiel.9048 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    Elementalists shouldn't be able to attune to so many different elements for a weapon. It makes their variety confusing beyond what is healthy for the game.

    Think about it. Everyone gets 5 skills per weapon with two weapons for 10 skills total. Elementalists get 4 DIFFERENT SETS OF 5 FOR 20 SKILLS!!!!!!
    This gives them twice as much variety as other classes. It makes them no more then Necros with even more confusing spells.

    This should be toned down to no more then 3 elements as it is still 50% more weapon variety then other classes.
    Anything more is far too confusing and unhealthy for the game!

    Quality over quantity. You are also supporting the argument because Elementalists would love nothing more than to blindly press 1/F1 skills and be meta like so many builds today. Instead we have to be Mozart. Furthermore, we have no weapon swap to balance the quantity, which is debatable.

    But sadly, Elementalists have no reveal so your argument is weak.
    So yes, please remove stealth from Mesmers .

    Amen.
    A complete non-sequitur about elementalist that has nothing to do with the problems surrounding Mesmer class.
    Not only that but a weak argument as well - ele is pretty hard, in general at least. It's easy to be mediocre at tho. So a lot of reasonably talented players end up wrongly assuming that they know what they're talking about after playing ele for a total of 200 hours or less. Some people are really terrible in one regard though - the ones who play for many, many hours, but still don't understand and want to enforce their wrong opinion on everyone else. I don't know if this is what it is at play here but it's something I like to remind people to keep in mind when assessing responses like these.

    Back on subject.
    Does mesmer need stealth to be removed?

    I think mesmer needs less f****** clone builds. The clone generation (edit: overall/general) is fine but niche builds that can generate WAY TOO MANY are, well ... generating way too many

    No kitten sherlock, once again, I know it is non-sequitur. That is why I made it, to show how the Op's initial argument reasons are flawed by simplifying the argument just to what they said.

    Stealth is not a thief only mechanic. Their mechanic is initiative and steal. That is why mesmer has had some stealth since launch and why ranger and scrapper have stealth. It is almost like 75% of people on the forums don't know how to read or tell when someone is being sarcastic.

    Dude, be an adult and be straight with people. Your disrespect is wasting everyone's time and making things more hostile.


    Personally I don't much like stealth in this game. It is way too binary, and easily waltzes into OP territory. However, I recognize that it is necessary for mesmers to be duplicitous. If mesmers didn't have a way to disappear, then all they would be is weaker battlemages that make ignore-able doppelgangers. To get rid of stealth, you'd have to make it so mesmers randomly swap position with their clones whenever they'd use one of these stealth skills (a la mirage deceptions), which would be jarring to play and hard to manage.

    As much as I don't like stealth, the game is built around it. For better or worse, stealth is here to stay.

    There are abilities that allow the mesmer to swap position with an illusion. Skills that currently apply stealth could be replaced with this kind of mechanics?

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ROMANG.1903 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Castiel.9048 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    Elementalists shouldn't be able to attune to so many different elements for a weapon. It makes their variety confusing beyond what is healthy for the game.

    Think about it. Everyone gets 5 skills per weapon with two weapons for 10 skills total. Elementalists get 4 DIFFERENT SETS OF 5 FOR 20 SKILLS!!!!!!
    This gives them twice as much variety as other classes. It makes them no more then Necros with even more confusing spells.

    This should be toned down to no more then 3 elements as it is still 50% more weapon variety then other classes.
    Anything more is far too confusing and unhealthy for the game!

    Quality over quantity. You are also supporting the argument because Elementalists would love nothing more than to blindly press 1/F1 skills and be meta like so many builds today. Instead we have to be Mozart. Furthermore, we have no weapon swap to balance the quantity, which is debatable.

    But sadly, Elementalists have no reveal so your argument is weak.
    So yes, please remove stealth from Mesmers .

    Amen.
    A complete non-sequitur about elementalist that has nothing to do with the problems surrounding Mesmer class.
    Not only that but a weak argument as well - ele is pretty hard, in general at least. It's easy to be mediocre at tho. So a lot of reasonably talented players end up wrongly assuming that they know what they're talking about after playing ele for a total of 200 hours or less. Some people are really terrible in one regard though - the ones who play for many, many hours, but still don't understand and want to enforce their wrong opinion on everyone else. I don't know if this is what it is at play here but it's something I like to remind people to keep in mind when assessing responses like these.

    Back on subject.
    Does mesmer need stealth to be removed?

    I think mesmer needs less f****** clone builds. The clone generation (edit: overall/general) is fine but niche builds that can generate WAY TOO MANY are, well ... generating way too many

    No kitten sherlock, once again, I know it is non-sequitur. That is why I made it, to show how the Op's initial argument reasons are flawed by simplifying the argument just to what they said.

    Stealth is not a thief only mechanic. Their mechanic is initiative and steal. That is why mesmer has had some stealth since launch and why ranger and scrapper have stealth. It is almost like 75% of people on the forums don't know how to read or tell when someone is being sarcastic.

    Dude, be an adult and be straight with people. Your disrespect is wasting everyone's time and making things more hostile.


    Personally I don't much like stealth in this game. It is way too binary, and easily waltzes into OP territory. However, I recognize that it is necessary for mesmers to be duplicitous. If mesmers didn't have a way to disappear, then all they would be is weaker battlemages that make ignore-able doppelgangers. To get rid of stealth, you'd have to make it so mesmers randomly swap position with their clones whenever they'd use one of these stealth skills (a la mirage deceptions), which would be jarring to play and hard to manage.

    As much as I don't like stealth, the game is built around it. For better or worse, stealth is here to stay.

    There are abilities that allow the mesmer to swap position with an illusion. Skills that currently apply stealth could be replaced with this kind of mechanics?

    You sound like you don’t know anything about Mesmer clones and how the class even plays.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    I've been playing mesmer since the first day and I gotta agree with OP. Mesmer should have to choose between having stealth or clones. It shouldn't have access to both.

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @op :

    • Guardian should not have aegis.
    • Warrior should not have passive sustain.
    • Rev shoumd not have riposting shadow.
    • Ele should not have mist form.
    • Nec should not have 2nd life bar.
    • Thief should not have evade or no stealth.
    • Engi should not have stealth.
    • Ranger should not have tealth.

    What else ?
    Everyone should die when targeting in 10 sec so you feel good ?

    I was going to answer all of this but I think you already know why this is different. Mesmers are confusing by nature. For every class with stealth, you always know it when they are in stealth, and it lasts for a set duration with clear rules. They are invisible, but you know that they are.
    When it comes to mesmer, you never know if the character is in stealth, if he's one of the clones, if he's even still there or if he teleported super far away... Now it might just be manageable if all of these parameters didn't change literally every few seconds. Everytime the mesmer spawns new clones, you have to guess which one is the real one, or if the real one is even visible. And to complete all of this, mesmers don't have to sacrifice any damage to get so confusing, which makes them able to burst you down while you're still looking for the real one.

  • Gryxis.6950Gryxis.6950 Member ✭✭✭

    When it comes to mesmer, you never know if the character is in stealth, if he's one of the clones, if he's even still there or if he teleported super far away... Now it might just be manageable if all of these parameters didn't change literally every few seconds. Everytime the mesmer spawns new clones, you have to guess which one is the real one, or if the real one is even visible.

    Spawning a new clone doesn't remove targetting. Unless the mesmer is a mirage and is actively trying to look like one of his clones, it's really not that hard to detect him. And if he's actively trying to look like one of his clones, he loses quite a bit of damage and a lot of mobility until he stops. I think you just need to train yourself against mesmers a bit more, it's clearly not the hardest class to face anymore (but not the easiest either i'll grant you that)

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    Sounds like a problem with clones rather than stealth. Clones are not even deceiving to anyone who knows any of the various tells that separate the Mesmer from them. It requires some learning and some awareness of when you have lost target. Or you can just roll massive AoE and spam it on the clones and kill them all... you know, like every other profession has access to.

    Reworking clones to be immune to damage and do none themselves but also not have a health bar would be optimal, damage could all be moved to the Mesmer themself instead. Only major change needed would be that of making target break skills for Mesmer make their health bar disappear for a couple seconds.

  • Mesmers ARE like thieves, it's all about illusions, to trick people, confuse them, make them think "tf is happening?". Stealth is some kind of illusionary magic. I belive mesmers utilize illusion to stealth themselves, it's not shadow magic like thieves do.

    So... removing stealth from mesmer would be like removing symbols from guardian.

    Master of garbage builds and being useless.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Castiel.9048 said:
    Exaggerations should be limited.
    As someone that plays Ele as a primary profession, I didn't state that more buttons = harder to play.
    I stated that we have to be Mozart because we have to constantly attune to maximize the respective attributes needed for an encounter.
    This is def. not required for other professions, and by far requires more thought and planning than Mesmer, which I play tertiary.
    Leaps. Interesting.

    Stealth should have a reveal cooldown, such as when once attacked or skill executed, stealth cannot be cleared until encounter is over.

    seems like you dont get whats the goal of mesmer if you think ele takes more thought to play, :D

  • SoulSlavocracy.4902SoulSlavocracy.4902 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    p.s. I explained that that argument was supposed to be absurd on purpose as explained in the note section of my last post before yours. However, I can understand if you missed it.

    Sorry, thank you for being polite, I was only skimming this thread when I posted that. My mistake.

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    There are abilities that allow the mesmer to swap position with an illusion. Skills that currently apply stealth could be replaced with this kind of mechanics?

    You sound like you don’t know anything about Mesmer clones and how the class even plays.

    What am I missing here? Mesmer does have a skill that does this and it's very popular.

    | Solemn [DoM][Fw][PAL][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the sheer fact that people want ILLUSIONIST to lost stealth is just mind WREAKING, yes pun intended.

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Antycypator.9874 said:
    Mesmers ARE like thieves, it's all about illusions, to trick people, confuse them, make them think "tf is happening?". Stealth is some kind of illusionary magic. I belive mesmers utilize illusion to stealth themselves, it's not shadow magic like thieves do.

    So... removing stealth from mesmer would be like removing symbols from guardian.

    Lore shouldn't be a reason to give any class too many tools. One thing I would be okay with, would be a shatter skill that applies stealth. That would force the mesmer to choose in which way to be confusing. The whole issue is the combination of the two, having several models with no way of telling if the real one is even here.

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    Sounds like a problem with clones rather than stealth. Clones are not even deceiving to anyone who knows any of the various tells that separate the Mesmer from them. It requires some learning and some awareness of when you have lost target. Or you can just roll massive AoE and spam it on the clones and kill them all... you know, like every other profession has access to.

    Clones are easily identifyable in a short time. But the mesmer spawns several of them and goes in and out of stealth evey second, and doesn't have to sacrifice any burst potential to do so. Every other class has to choose between offense and defense, the mesmer doesn't. And if your solution to counter the clones is to waste your damaging abilities on them, well, I think you don't exactly grasp what a counter is supposed to be.

  • Unfortunately, the best counters for stealth are... in the wrong game. Would love to Distracting Shot that thing the moment I saw you start using it, or have you kill yourself under Backfire so you'd unstealth already downed! Spiteful Spirit and watch all your clones kill themselves AND the mesmer!

    ... Sorry. Just reminiscing. This contributes nothing.

  • I think we should not remove stealth from mesmer, but rather add the revelation effect to spells of other classes.

  • @ROMANG.1903 said:

    @Antycypator.9874 said:
    Mesmers ARE like thieves, it's all about illusions, to trick people, confuse them, make them think "tf is happening?". Stealth is some kind of illusionary magic. I belive mesmers utilize illusion to stealth themselves, it's not shadow magic like thieves do.

    So... removing stealth from mesmer would be like removing symbols from guardian.

    Lore shouldn't be a reason to give any class too many tools. One thing I would be okay with, would be a shatter skill that applies stealth. That would force the mesmer to choose in which way to be confusing. The whole issue is the combination of the two, having several models with no way of telling if the real one is even here.

    It's just thematicaly correct, just like corrupt skills for necromancers. Good thing it's fairly limited and stealth skills for mesmers are super short (if not traited). It's not like thief when you can play "perma stealth" build and be invisible almost all the time. Mesmer has many tools and utility skills — for almost every situation. BTW utility skills are not designed to deal heavy damage (there are always exeptions), more like support, reflects, blocks, stun breakers, control, mobility).

    Master of garbage builds and being useless.

  • I like how the word "confusing" being thrown around without further elaborations. How is it confusing? Why is it confusing? What makes it confusing? Without pinning down to specifics you just sounded like someone who has no idea about the class and rather complain about it than evaluate it.

    We're in 2019.
    Stealth doesn't suddenly make clones animate themselves differently, no class is "confusing by nature" at this point.
    Mesmer is still the same old noob stomper that excels at punishing foes unfamiliar to it yet the class struggles to get decent representations in ladders.

    [RED] Crimson Sunspears...your small family guild since 2015.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    Stealth makes mesmers confusing beyond what is healthy for the game, it makes them nothing more thieves with more confusing spells. Mesmers should rely on illusions, not stealth.

    But mesmer use illusions to make you think that they ain't here... Illusions are mainly the illusionist saying to your brain that something happen or not. And stealth isn't incompatible with this concept. Or perhaps you think it's more logic to be able to disappear after jumping into smoke?

  • @ROMANG.1903 said:
    Clones are easily identifyable in a short time. But the mesmer spawns several of them and goes in and out of stealth evey second, and doesn't have to sacrifice any burst potential to do so. Every other class has to choose between offense and defense, the mesmer doesn't. And if your solution to counter the clones is to waste your damaging abilities on them, well, I think you don't exactly grasp what a counter is supposed to be.

    I don't feel like anyone has properly responded to/refuted this yet.
    I agree.

    | Solemn [DoM][Fw][PAL][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    Clones are easily identifyable in a short time. But the mesmer spawns several of them and goes in and out of stealth evey second, and doesn't have to sacrifice any burst potential to do so. Every other class has to choose between offense and defense, the mesmer doesn't. And if your solution to counter the clones is to waste your damaging abilities on them, well, I think you don't exactly grasp what a counter is supposed to be.

    I don't feel like anyone has properly responded to/refuted this yet.
    I agree.

    Its very obvious when someone knows what they're talking about and when not with Mesmer. I assume most people just dont bother anymore to respond to users who dont understand Mesmer on a fundamental level, because otherwise we'd be here all day.

    To actually elaborate: Yes, shatters are Mesmers profession mechanic and clones their profession ressource.
    You "consume" all your ressource on each shatter so, yes, you actually do have to make a decision between damage/cc/defense.
    Furthermore, yes, "wasting your skills" to essentially reset the profession ressource is indeed a way to counter them. Imagine if you could reset a Warriors adrenalin or Necromancers lifeforce, that is what this is. By destroying clones you cripple a Mesmers offensive and defensive capabilities alike. It doesnt take much effort either, Clones in PvP have like 3k health, which is auto attack levels of damage.

  • @Enokitake.1742 Well said. The original poster’s entire premise does highlight why Mesmer gets called to nerf so often and how the devs end up erroneously targeting skills or traits for “fixing”. Much of the community thinks you need to build specifically to beat Mesmer, but really it is just a learning how the profession plays, and using your skills when you need to and not just spamming them on cooldown.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Illusionists using magic to make themselves and their allies invisible has been a thing in fantasy gaming for almost 50 years now.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Hiraga Taichiru.1580Hiraga Taichiru.1580 Member ✭✭
    edited September 18, 2019

    @ROMANG.1903 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @op :

    • Guardian should not have aegis.
    • Warrior should not have passive sustain.
    • Rev shoumd not have riposting shadow.
    • Ele should not have mist form.
    • Nec should not have 2nd life bar.
    • Thief should not have evade or no stealth.
    • Engi should not have stealth.
    • Ranger should not have tealth.

    What else ?
    Everyone should die when targeting in 10 sec so you feel good ?

    I was going to answer all of this but I think you already know why this is different. Mesmers are confusing by nature. For every class with stealth, you always know it when they are in stealth, and it lasts for a set duration with clear rules. They are invisible, but you know that they are.
    When it comes to mesmer, you never know if the character is in stealth, if he's one of the clones, if he's even still there or if he teleported super far away... Now it might just be manageable if all of these parameters didn't change literally every few seconds. Everytime the mesmer spawns new clones, you have to guess which one is the real one, or if the real one is even visible. And to complete all of this, mesmers don't have to sacrifice any damage to get so confusing, which makes them able to burst you down while you're still looking for the real one.

    It seems you have a misconception, Core Mesmer and Chronomancer cannot make you confused!!, Only Mirage would make you confused. And based on its name "Mirage" you shall be confused.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree, mesmers should not have this much stealth. But also mesmer illusions should not be so different from the mesmer himself, so that the players would experience hard time which is which. Every illusion should be identical to the mesmer, and copy his movements also, like a mirror , to make it more different and "mesmer-like". In the end, mesmer is an illusionist after all and an illusion that is easily perceived is against the mentality of it.

  • Engal.6359Engal.6359 Member ✭✭✭

    Stealth is not the problem. Condi mirage is. On power mes, stealth is vital for correct positioning and timing. On condi its just another button to spam. Like CI, stealth isnt a problem. Condi mirage is fundamentally broken, and the devs should address the cause rather than any one symptom. Not that they will, but we can hope.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Engal.6359 said:
    Stealth is not the problem. Condi mirage is. On power mes, stealth is vital for correct positioning and timing. On condi its just another button to spam. Like CI, stealth isnt a problem. Condi mirage is fundamentally broken, and the devs should address the cause rather than any one symptom. Not that they will, but we can hope.

    You should be aware that condi mirage doesnt use stealth. (pvp at least, in wvw ppl can play whatever and get away as almost all wvw players are kitten bad)
    Stealth is bad in this game as you are completely invisible and no chances detect it unless you posses such rare "AoE reveal" skill, only blessed classes has it (and only certain elite specs). Even in HotS from full stealth they gave players ability to actually see them while they are in stealth, in WoW they become transparent too when they are close (iirc, havent played wow in like 10 years or so xD).

  • Engal.6359Engal.6359 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:
    Stealth is not the problem. Condi mirage is. On power mes, stealth is vital for correct positioning and timing. On condi its just another button to spam. Like CI, stealth isnt a problem. Condi mirage is fundamentally broken, and the devs should address the cause rather than any one symptom. Not that they will, but we can hope.

    You should be aware that condi mirage doesnt use stealth. (pvp at least, in wvw ppl can play whatever and get away as almost all wvw players are kitten bad)

    Depends on their build. Most ppl take pistol over torch, but signet fixes 2s and some good mirages take mass for the team utility. I'm a p2 mesmer main, I am perfectly aware of the pvp meta.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Engal.6359 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:
    Stealth is not the problem. Condi mirage is. On power mes, stealth is vital for correct positioning and timing. On condi its just another button to spam. Like CI, stealth isnt a problem. Condi mirage is fundamentally broken, and the devs should address the cause rather than any one symptom. Not that they will, but we can hope.

    You should be aware that condi mirage doesnt use stealth. (pvp at least, in wvw ppl can play whatever and get away as almost all wvw players are kitten bad)

    Depends on their build. Most ppl take pistol over torch, but signet fixes 2s and some good mirages take mass for the team utility. I'm a p2 mesmer main, I am perfectly aware of the pvp meta.

    Havent seen even one "good" mirage that take MI over jaunt in this condi fiesta, wouldnt do that as well, also holo with passive reveal, meh

  • Engal.6359Engal.6359 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:
    Stealth is not the problem. Condi mirage is. On power mes, stealth is vital for correct positioning and timing. On condi its just another button to spam. Like CI, stealth isnt a problem. Condi mirage is fundamentally broken, and the devs should address the cause rather than any one symptom. Not that they will, but we can hope.

    You should be aware that condi mirage doesnt use stealth. (pvp at least, in wvw ppl can play whatever and get away as almost all wvw players are kitten bad)

    Depends on their build. Most ppl take pistol over torch, but signet fixes 2s and some good mirages take mass for the team utility. I'm a p2 mesmer main, I am perfectly aware of the pvp meta.

    Havent seen even one "good" mirage that take MI over jaunt in this condi fiesta, wouldnt do that as well, also holo with passive reveal, meh

    It's more common in ATs, but you only see it with high rated mirages anyway.

  • Jazz.4639Jazz.4639 Member ✭✭✭

    hi when you have problems to deal with stealth maybe these guides can help you a bit. it prob will not solve all your problems but can make your life way easier:

    1. stealthtracking guide with different skill types of gw2 (sadly first massive attack song got muted by youtube bc of copyrights, still crying :( music starts in the end again)

      edit for mesmers: even blurred has stealth tracking char alignment to help you see movement of stealthed targets (sadly i couldnt find the footage in one of my vids showing it perfectly when a thief stealthed in the start of blurred and walked into my back to hit backstab in the aftercast of blurred, but char alignment warned me perfectly)
      1. why playing with effect and dialog sound (no music) helps a lot to get prepared for a stealth attack:
        the guide for all the important sounds (incl not only the sounds esp later in the vid some other good tips also vs cc):

    YT/Tw PvP WvW Power Mes Guides/ Gameplay https://tinyurl.com/njhmjsh
    my neighbours listen to awesome music... whether they want it or not