Loss of the Competitive Modes

[Suzaku.9537]

I'm just here as a humble PvE'r worrying about Anet's sole focus on PvE--weird, I know, but know that I do love all the PvE content being put out. Prologue: Bound by Blood was more than I expected for a "prologue" but still won and done in one day. Loved the story and everything--the map was particularly gorgeous--but having two friends quit the game because their game modes are getting near sub-zero attention SUCKS. I worked so hard to get them to play and it was good to see them find WvW and PvP to hold their attention after they graduated from regular PvE content.

And having three people have three different focuses on the game wasn't terrible! We all encouraged each other to break through our silos and I started to enjoy WvW and PvP a lot more with their encouragement. Conversely, I helped them reconnect with PvE content, dragging them along for any number of things like JPs, farming, and mount-acquisition. We'd play together in the varied ways GW2 allowed us to do so, and it was good. We could also play our own game-modes separate from one another, too, and that was also good (though, the game seems a bit too geared towards solo-players and you lose a bit of the community-building aspect of MMOs).

Of course, many PvE players bemoan the toxicity of the competitive modes--and it's definitely there--but PvE content isn't free of elitists, nor are they free of trolls roaming about in chat. BUT, the game is designed in a way where the trolls can't do MUCH in PvE--which is a very good thing.Though, in the game I played before GW2 (Rohan: Blood Feud), the community was based around the traditional "holy trinity" of party-grinding: the tank, the healer, and the DPS (also, an archer for pulling mobs to the party to reduce need for movement). The community was drawn together through this grind because of the presence of PK'ing and the ability to grief other players by destroying their progress (dying meant losing % of XP and items/equipment). Guilds grew around the concept of providing protection from either rogue players or guilds built on killing other players. Guilds also were able to compete in GvGvG to compete for control of cities and even gain taxation rights. I remember, at one point, a guild called the Imperials came to power and dominated many of the cities, raising taxes to the maximum 10% and many of the other guilds banding together to take down the tyrannical PK-guild. It was fun, but it was built on the concept of pay-to-win and that wasn't so fun. The grind was disgusting, the trolls got too annoying (though, protecting guildies from them and hunting down these serial-killers/bandits was fun), and the boredom of playing only one class was palpable.The problem with PvP, as my friend stated, was that you never knew which classes would be ascendant after a balance patch and the problem was that any classes would become ascendant was anathema to the concept of "balance". Playing that game-mode became a joke and you could never have a favourite class because once balance shifted, you had to play "the meta" instead of just playing the game as it was meant to be played. Hackers and trolls were also a big problem, where trolls would just throw the game and fiddle around in the home-base, hackers would phase through walls and do impossible damage. They would even dare people to report them because they wouldn't be banned for terrorising PvP--possibly because there are so many people who cry wolf and some evidence was difficult to discern via screenshot.

The problem with WvW was attrition. I remember playing, early on, and salted-trolls driving our commanders to other servers. Once we lost able commanders, players wanted to go where the winning was--where the rewards were. After the servers/worlds started emptying out, Anet started linking servers for WvW and in conjunction with the PvE mega-server system. The mega-server system was great! Having a friend on another server sucked because you couldn't play together just because they selected another server or your server was full. It was arbitrary and ridiculous. However, that remains WvW's problem: server-hopping and mis-matched matches that were entirely predictable and stale. WvW ran 24/7 and that was great for convenience of casual players who rarely ever touch the game-mode, but not really sustainable. In Rohan: Blood Feud, the GvGs for capturing cities were on specific days at specific times--a bit inconvenient if it didn't line up with your life-schedule, but a bit more manageable than 24/7. Hopefully, the Alliance-system comes soon with other QoL improvements and can align with the PvE megaservers to create a more sensical community (Ex. I'm in two PvX guilds and neither of them are on my server so most of us can't WvW with each other).

Right now, PvE is getting the most attention (Raids, Fractals, new maps, new story, etc.) and it probably always will, but the other modes are just withering away. I know it's difficult to satisfy everyone, but even I can see that the PvP Shoutcaster program is a ghost-town when however many years ago it had this exiciting e-sports potential that even WoodenPotatoes was getting into with Grouch and that collaboration was really fun to watch on Twitch. The bridging between PvE and sPvP was great to see! But with the recent departure of another Shoutcaster (Jawgeous), it looks to be a scary time for PvP as a viable game-type--which sucks. I always hated PvP because of the toxicity and competitiveness, but I enjoyed playing with my friends and not taking it TOO seriously made it fun. Also: WvW was a really good bridge for me to get more into sPvP because it paired PvE blobbing with Person vs. Person which made it a lot more unpredictable than Person vs. NPC.

My hope is that Anet will be able to revive PvP and WvW and that the communities will be less divided between one another and with PvE. Collecting skins and achievements gets a little stale and I value the ability to jump into PvP or WvW as much as I value jumping into Dungeons/Fractals.

[Hashberry.4510]

There is nothing that can be done to make these players happy. Waste of time.

[Strider Pj.2193]

While I don’t agree with the issues you listed being the only ones, I will agree that the issues you listed above are clearly problematic and drove many away.

I do love the ‘can’t keep these players happy’ crowd.. For the first three years it cost more to play WvW than you got in rewards. People still played it. Despite the lag, despite the balance issues, despite the exploits into keeps that went unaddressed (and to this day many still are)

Those that play it, love it. And, while some that play GW 2 view it as repetitive, for many of us that enjoy WvW, it is the opposite of repetitive. The encounters change, tactics for fights change.

Then HoT hit and all of the guild upgrades that WvW had worked to attain were locked behind a paywall and grind to get back,. Along with the overpowered elite specs, it began some of the large exodus.

DBL... it’s initial installation was.. tragic, but it mostly was fixed. After 6-8 months.

We now can break even and make a little in rewards, which for many is fine. Improving those would be great as long as it doesn’t incentivize winning as the OP pointed out created many of the population balance issues.

Which.... brings up the frustration many have now: Alliances. It was intended to be the closest fix to population issues. The initial presentation of what was coming actually brought people back. Then the first update about 5 months later about the work that had been accomplished was extremely encouraging. The second update was ‘we are still working, it’s still a priority..’. No actual update as to the actual progress. That was almost 12 months ago.

The last ‘update’ said exactly the same thing. ‘It’s a priority. No new info’

So, having seen fixes pop in within a month or two in PvE maps, exploits on PvE maps leading to changes within 2 months, and Changes to classes and problems happen when they ‘break’ PvE (see ghost thief nerf after soloing a raid boss), many players have said ‘I’m done’

Honestly? If they don’t want to have WvW (despite it being one of the three main modes initially advertised) then cut your losses and move on.

[SkyShroud.2865]

Anet simply has a big problem with the way they run game.

Gw2 was very successful at start, it has interesting ideas. This include their concept of Living Story where "Living" means a persistent changing world. However, they scrapped that idea off just because a group of players QQ that they want replayability for those contents. So today we have so many many maps is because of those people that complained of replayability but guess what? Now we have people complaining too many maps which cause population to spread out sparsely.

Next is people then QQ about dungeon difficulty so anet nerf them but in the end, how many actually play those high level dungeons. Still not much and those who do play can't see the difference between pre or post nerf.

Nevermind the above. I also remembered anet once say they won't add mount because the game is not made for mount in mind. Guess what? They add mount in pof and added mount everywhere else. What happen to that "not made for mount"? Then they added mount to wvw as well just because some minority say to do so and guesss what? The blob now can mount over the smaller group ezpz.

Years ago people already claiming the need to blow up the server due to bad population balance. There was argument which again the very vocal people come in. Years later, these vocal people are gone and now they finally take the claim seriously, is it not too late already?

The list can go on and on but one thing for sure is anet has a very very big problem on the way they run game which is they have absolute zero idea what they really want for the game. They add whatever players ask for regardless if it is suitable for the game or not, regardless the number of people asking for it. They try hard to please the vocal people by adding so many things but end up the game is mash of everything where nothing really stand out. Is anet really a game developing studio? Do the devs really have any passion for their game? Why are the devs selectively taking suggestions and not seriously contemplating the pros and cons of the suggestions?

The game is so messed up, I don't even know how it is possible for anyone to make it good again. I personally think is beyond salvaging. I think anet can only live on with their not so living story episodes.

[Drakz.7051]

I think they've all but abandoned competitive stuff. They'll try to keep it on a lifeline but their attention is solely focused on PvE and the cashshop to keep the game going.

I can see them getting about one last expansion out of this game if they don't do like SWTOR and just switch to full on Episodic content.

[Suzaku.9537]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:While I don’t agree with the issues you listed being the only ones, I will agree that the issues you listed above are clearly problematic and drove many away.

I do love the ‘can’t keep these players happy’ crowd.. For the first three years it cost more to play WvW than you got in rewards. People still played it. Despite the lag, despite the balance issues, despite the exploits into keeps that went unaddressed (and to this day many still are)

Those that play it, love it. And, while some that play GW 2 view it as repetitive, for many of us that enjoy WvW, it is the opposite of repetitive. The encounters change, tactics for fights change.

Then HoT hit and all of the guild upgrades that WvW had worked to attain were locked behind a paywall and grind to get back,. Along with the overpowered elite specs, it began some of the large exodus.

DBL... it’s initial installation was.. tragic, but it mostly was fixed. After 6-8 months.

We now can break even and make a little in rewards, which for many is fine. Improving those would be great as long as it doesn’t incentivize winning as the OP pointed out created many of the population balance issues.

Which.... brings up the frustration many have now: Alliances. It was intended to be the closest fix to population issues. The initial presentation of what was coming actually brought people back. Then the first update about 5 months later about the work that had been accomplished was extremely encouraging. The second update was ‘we are still working, it’s still a priority..’. No actual update as to the actual progress. That was almost 12 months ago.

The last ‘update’ said exactly the same thing. ‘It’s a priority. No new info’

So, having seen fixes pop in within a month or two in PvE maps, exploits on PvE maps leading to changes within 2 months, and Changes to classes and problems happen when they ‘break’ PvE (see ghost thief nerf after soloing a raid boss), many players have said ‘I’m done’

Honestly? If they don’t want to have WvW (despite it being one of the three main modes initially advertised) then cut your losses and move on.

As a PvE'r, thanks for your input; it's exactly what my WvW-friend would have said and I don't think I could've put it better myself.

I think it'd be pretty simple to keep the competitive modes happy by just having dedicated teams for those modes (if they do, sorry, but WvW and PvP just seem like side-projects, now), balancing and building new things.

I think it's a sad thing to lose the competitive communities 'cause they bring in/retain a lot of players, too. PvP Shoutcasts are pretty exciting to watch, and matches really highlight the skills of each class/specialisation (and the person playing them). WvW is much more accessible for casuals and PvE-minded players, too, and can become a way for guilds to galvanise members rather than just wild-goose chase missions or even as a stepping stone towards sPvP. A lot of PvE'rs can get bored of farming for gold, achievement-hunting, or running dungeons/fractals day-in-and-day-out; I think we should still have WvW and PvP as viable options rather than just doing story and getting too deep into FashionWars. :lol:

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

They do have a dedicated team; the competitive team.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:snip~

Which.... brings up the frustration many have now: Alliances. It was intended to be the closest fix to population issues. The initial presentation of what was coming actually brought people back. Then the first update about 5 months later about the work that had been accomplished was extremely encouraging. The second update was ‘we are still working, it’s still a priority..’. No actual update as to the actual progress. That was almost 12 months ago.

The last ‘update’ said exactly the same thing. ‘It’s a priority. No new info’

!snip~

Honestly? If they don’t want to have WvW (despite it being one of the three main modes initially advertised) then cut your losses and move on.

Actually there was an update, and it was in the German interview with Mike Z...it did say it's still a priority, but that while working on Swiss tournaments for PvP they found some issues with the back end that needed to be fixed first so they switched the focus at hand to fixing those issues...while it doesn't give you any dates, there was some new information in there about Alliances.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:snip~

Which.... brings up the frustration many have now: Alliances. It was intended to be the closest fix to population issues. The initial presentation of what was coming actually brought people back. Then the first update about 5 months later about the work that had been accomplished was extremely encouraging. The second update was ‘we are still working, it’s still a priority..’. No actual update as to the actual progress. That was almost 12 months ago.

The last ‘update’ said exactly the same thing. ‘It’s a priority. No new info’

!snip~

Honestly? If they don’t want to have WvW (despite it being one of the three main modes initially advertised) then cut your losses and move on.

Actually there was an update, and it was in the German interview with Mike Z...it did say it's still a priority, but that while working on Swiss tournaments for PvP they found some issues with the back end that needed to be fixed first so they switched the focus at hand to fixing those issues...while it doesn't give you any dates,

there was some new information in there about Alliances.

That was what was listed as the ‘newest update’ in my... rant.. (and I mostly apologize for the wall of text...).

It said, in effect, it’s still a priority and we are still working on it.

That may qualify as an update to some, and I respect that, but to many of us, the meme of ‘soon™️‘ applies.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:snip~

Which.... brings up the frustration many have now: Alliances. It was intended to be the closest fix to population issues. The initial presentation of what was coming actually brought people back. Then the first update about 5 months later about the work that had been accomplished was extremely encouraging. The second update was ‘we are still working, it’s still a priority..’. No actual update as to the actual progress. That was almost 12 months ago.

The last ‘update’ said exactly the same thing. ‘It’s a priority. No new info’

!snip~

Honestly? If they don’t want to have WvW (despite it being one of the three main modes initially advertised) then cut your losses and move on.

Actually there was an update, and it was in the German interview with Mike Z...it did say it's still a priority, but that while working on Swiss tournaments for PvP they found some issues with the back end that needed to be fixed first so they switched the focus at hand to fixing those issues...while it doesn't give you any dates,

there was some new information in there about Alliances.

That was what was listed as the ‘newest update’ in my... rant.. (and I mostly apologize for the wall of text...).

It said, in effect, it’s still a priority and we are still working on it.

That may qualify as an update to some, and I respect that, but to many of us, the meme of ‘soon

™️

‘ applies.

No, you said it had no new info., which is factually incorrect, it did have new info...unless you don't consider finding out that ArenaNet finding out about a problem with the back end while working on something else that they were focusing on fixing new info.(which lead to the mention that once that back end is fixed they can begin sticthing together the different parts that go into Alliances, which appear to be several different systems linked together), in my book that is new info.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:snip~

Which.... brings up the frustration many have now: Alliances. It was intended to be the closest fix to population issues. The initial presentation of what was coming actually brought people back. Then the first update about 5 months later about the work that had been accomplished was extremely encouraging. The second update was ‘we are still working, it’s still a priority..’. No actual update as to the actual progress. That was almost 12 months ago.

The last ‘update’ said exactly the same thing. ‘It’s a priority. No new info’

!snip~

Honestly? If they don’t want to have WvW (despite it being one of the three main modes initially advertised) then cut your losses and move on.

Actually there was an update, and it was in the German interview with Mike Z...it did say it's still a priority, but that while working on Swiss tournaments for PvP they found some issues with the back end that needed to be fixed first so they switched the focus at hand to fixing those issues...while it doesn't give you any dates,

there was some new information in there about Alliances.

That was what was listed as the ‘newest update’ in my... rant.. (and I mostly apologize for the wall of text...).

It said, in effect, it’s still a priority and we are still working on it.

That may qualify as an update to some, and I respect that, but to many of us, the meme of ‘soon

™️

‘ applies.

No, you said it had no new info., which is factually incorrect, it did have new info...unless you don't consider finding out that ArenaNet finding out about a problem with the back end while working on something else that they were focusing on fixing new info.(which lead to the mention that once that back end is fixed they can begin sticthing together the different parts that go into Alliances, which appear to be several different systems linked together), in my book that is new info.

For sPvP.......

Everything in my post, only mentions WvW.

[Acheron.4731]

I finally threw in the towel too with wvw. It was the only mode I played in this game but was so neglected that there is nothing really left to fix. Everyone I knew from when I started left long ago, most people don't log on anymore except for the occasional re-set night.Alliances coming in now will not fix a thing. People are too jaded at this point.I really wish someone else had taken over this aspect of the game that had the drive and desire to foster a thriving wvw or rvr scene

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:snip~

Which.... brings up the frustration many have now: Alliances. It was intended to be the closest fix to population issues. The initial presentation of what was coming actually brought people back. Then the first update about 5 months later about the work that had been accomplished was extremely encouraging. The second update was ‘we are still working, it’s still a priority..’. No actual update as to the actual progress. That was almost 12 months ago.

The last ‘update’ said exactly the same thing. ‘It’s a priority. No new info’

!snip~

Honestly? If they don’t want to have WvW (despite it being one of the three main modes initially advertised) then cut your losses and move on.

Actually there was an update, and it was in the German interview with Mike Z...it did say it's still a priority, but that while working on Swiss tournaments for PvP they found some issues with the back end that needed to be fixed first so they switched the focus at hand to fixing those issues...while it doesn't give you any dates,

there was some new information in there about Alliances.

That was what was listed as the ‘newest update’ in my... rant.. (and I mostly apologize for the wall of text...).

It said, in effect, it’s still a priority and we are still working on it.

That may qualify as an update to some, and I respect that, but to many of us, the meme of ‘soon

™️

‘ applies.

No, you said it had no new info., which is factually incorrect, it did have new info...unless you don't consider finding out that ArenaNet finding out about a problem with the back end while working on something else that they were focusing on fixing new info.(which lead to the mention that once that back end is fixed they can begin sticthing together the different parts that go into Alliances, which appear to be several different systems linked together), in my book that is new info.

For reference:

@"Sviel.7493" said:(Mike Z’s part)>For Swiss tournaments, the front end is done, and we’re just shoring up the back end to make sure that it’s going to run and people aren’t going to lose progress. The work that we’re doing right now is going to have some impact on how we finish world restructuring as well. We’re killing two birds with one stone. World restructuring is the paramount feature that the competitive team is working on right now. We knew we needed to get Swiss done, and now all hands are trying to get world restructuring done as soon as we can.

It ain't much, but it's more than we've had for the past year...

Note that Swiss tournaments were supposed to be out already, which means they're behind on Alliances because the previous project went long.

Source: https://pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/pvp-raids-world-restructuring