Flurry, it stinks, what can we replace it with?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Fatal Thrust: Impale your target stunning them for 1s (damage scales by 1.0 power) then kick them away (knockback 200) while pulling out your sword (1.0 power scaling) and deal 4/8/12 stacks of bleed for 12s, 2/4/6 stacks of torment for 8s, immobilize for 2/4/6s based on amount of adrenaline spent? Initial hit should be a 1/2s animation with the kick hitting another 1/2s after that for a 1s total cast time.

I can imagine that sweet animation, I would love something like this. Savage leap would be also more usable to combo with this skill and get reliable hit.

Which is part of why I suggested putting immob on the second hit. There have been a lot of great suggestions in this thread, but I kind of like this one a fair bit.

[otto.5684]

Remove the immobilize and make it deal all it’s damage in one hit, like axe F1.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

If the skill was changed to 3 hits where damage is loaded into last big hit while at same time speed the skill up to actually feel like a flurry so it takes little time to land all three would probably work ok. Especially if second hit did 1/4 daze or stun or maybe keep immobilize. On second thought this could work for gs better maybe lol.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@otto.5684 said:Remove the immobilize and make it deal all it’s damage in one hit, like axe F1.

That is more or less what I recommended in my original post, can't quite call it flurry then so I called it Galrath's Slash.

[Opopanax.1803]

@"otto.5684" said:Remove the immobilize and make it deal all it’s damage in one hit, like axe F1.

"Mega-slice"

[Lighter.5631]

most core F1 sucks and discipline boosts little.mace f1 should get the jump from berserker anyway, and berserker mace f1 should be aoeflurry should reduce hits and increase power damage and add more filler conditions.

i don't know whats preventing them from adding two phases skills to burst skills or any warrior skill in generallike why riposte is not a two phase skill, like why it auto activate when hit once. why can't it just be a full long blockand why rip has such a long cast time with such low range for activation and effect..

and banner changes are so uninspired, you shouldnt remove the banner skill, you should buff them, see them as tool kits and so warrior can have some bunker/support potential, maybe like add aoe cc on banner or like aoe resistance or something

[Swagg.9236]

BETTER FLURRY

• No longer roots the user during skill activation.
• No longer inflicts immobilize.
• Now grants superspeed which scales in duration based on spent adrenaline: Tier 1 (1½s); Tier 2 (3s); Tier 3 (4½s).
• Now inflicts bonus damage per stack of bleed on a target (+2% damage per bleed stack; maximum bonus damage: 50%).

ALTERNATIVE FLURRY![Quivering Blade]!Activation: ¾s / Recharge: 8s!Leap forward, striking all foes in a line, stunning them and gaining superspeed. Effect increases with adrenaline level. Recharge Savage Leap if you strike a foe with this skill.! Damage: (1.2)! Stun: ½s! Level 1 Superspeed (1½s): Movement Speed is greatly increased.! Level 2 Superspeed (3s): Movement Speed is greatly increased.! Level 3 Superspeed (4½s): Movement Speed is greatly increased.! Combo Finisher: Leap! Range: 600! Unblockable

!Based off of the functionality of the Caithe (Transformation) skill: [Viper's Leap].

OTHER BALANCE CHANGE:

• Deleted off-hand dagger from the game.
• [bladestorm] moved to Mainhand Sword 3.
• [bladestorm] recharge reduced from 20s to 5s.
• [bladestorm] now has a maximum ammo count of 2; count recharge set to 20s.
• Strikes no longer inflict vulnerability. Now they instead inflict Bleeding (5s).
• Damage per strike reduced by about 42% (from (0.35 to 0.2).
• [impale] (Off-hand Sword 4) deleted; replaced with current [Final Thrust].
• [savage Leap] now inflicts shockwave damage (i.e. former function of [Decapitate]) to targets behind its struck target (shockwave strikes up to 3 targets; 300 range; inflicts damage equivalent to the baseline [savage Leap] strike).

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

How about not deleting Dagger OH. It is useful in an Axe/Dagger set up for really good sustain, and Wastrel's Ruin hits hard in WvW.

[Swagg.9236]

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:How about not deleting Dagger OH. It is useful in an Axe/Dagger set up for really good sustain, and Wastrel's Ruin hits hard in WvW.

Yeah, but it's an incredibly boring design: half-second amount of time spent in action compared to a 12s cooldown period; deals nearly the baseline damage of an Elementalist meteor with a very easy means of doubling that. You can stick Wastrel's Ruin anywhere if you really want to keep it (as cheesy as it is). There are plenty of worthless skills floating around the Warrior's bank of bloat. Throw it on mace off-hand 4 and rework mace off-hand 5 because the idea here is to make main-hand sword functional, fair and fun to play via high mobility and flexible combat range. Axe/X, by all rights, means relying on auto attacks sustained by low-effort delay tactics along with absurd DPS powercreep on things like Cyclone Axe and Throw Axe (two of the most boring skills to ever exist, yet they are made "viable" simply because they've received respective baseline damage buffs that can run their numbers up to over 200% of what they were at launch). How about just shifting to the movement meta while abandoning hard-counters and Runescape-tier combat; or, at the very least, not base combat design around WvW (a mode in which team numbers and stats are inherently imbalanced)?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Swagg.9236 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:How about not deleting Dagger OH. It is useful in an Axe/Dagger set up for really good sustain, and Wastrel's Ruin hits hard in WvW.

Yeah, but it's an incredibly boring design: half-second amount of time spent in action compared to a 12s cooldown period; deals nearly the baseline damage of an Elementalist meteor with a very easy means of doubling that. You can stick Wastrel's Ruin anywhere if you really want to keep it (as cheesy as it is). There are plenty of worthless skills floating around the Warrior's bank of bloat. Throw it on mace off-hand 4 and rework mace off-hand 5 because the idea here is to make main-hand sword functional, fair and fun to play via high mobility and flexible combat range. Axe/X, by all rights, means relying on auto attacks sustained by low-effort delay tactics along with absurd DPS powercreep on things like Cyclone Axe and Throw Axe (two of the most boring skills to ever exist, yet they are made "viable" simply because they've received respective baseline damage buffs that can run their numbers up to over 200% of what they were at launch). How about just shifting to the movement meta while abandoning hard-counters and Runescape-tier combat; or, at the very least, not base combat design around WvW (a mode in which team numbers and stats are inherently imbalanced)?

Or we can take what isn't working anywhere due to age and make it better. For axe it was the fact that ALL of its skills were worthless next to AA, they made the other weapon skills worth using. For Sword it is mainly F1. Mace/Mace is still the best breakbar set, and Mace 4 adds a large stack of vulnerability with good damage, it is just rarely run because A) Shield block is too good in competitive game modes, and shield stun is as good as Mace 5 and B.) OH Axe cleaves better for DPS.

[Swagg.9236]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:How about not deleting Dagger OH. It is useful in an Axe/Dagger set up for really good sustain, and Wastrel's Ruin hits hard in WvW.

Yeah, but it's an incredibly boring design: half-second amount of time spent in action compared to a 12s cooldown period; deals nearly the baseline damage of an Elementalist meteor with a very easy means of doubling that. You can stick Wastrel's Ruin anywhere if you really want to keep it (as cheesy as it is). There are plenty of worthless skills floating around the Warrior's bank of bloat. Throw it on mace off-hand 4 and rework mace off-hand 5 because the idea here is to make main-hand sword functional, fair and fun to play via high mobility and flexible combat range. Axe/X, by all rights, means relying on auto attacks sustained by low-effort delay tactics along with absurd DPS powercreep on things like Cyclone Axe and Throw Axe (two of the most boring skills to ever exist, yet they are made "viable" simply because they've received respective baseline damage buffs that can run their numbers up to over 200% of what they were at launch). How about just shifting to the movement meta while abandoning hard-counters and Runescape-tier combat; or, at the very least, not base combat design around WvW (a mode in which team numbers and stats are inherently imbalanced)?

Or we can take what isn't working anywhere due to age and make it better. For axe it was the fact that ALL of its skills were worthless next to AA, they made the other weapon skills worth using. For Sword it is mainly F1. Mace/Mace is still the best breakbar set, and Mace 4 adds a large stack of vulnerability with good damage, it is just rarely run because A) Shield block is too good in competitive game modes, and shield stun is as good as Mace 5 and B.) OH Axe cleaves better for DPS.

With GW2, compression of the current skill base is always going to yield better results than just buffing or re-working things. There is really just so little to go on when it comes to role-defining support or movement across all classes, so if you keep buffing or re-designing all of these skills which nobody uses, you're basically just going to end up supplanting current skill sets. We don't have an infinite amount of space for skill options--very little in fact--so the more you buff "underperforming" things, the more bloat you will end up creating in the end.

The biggest issue here is that GW2 is a shallow game, and that's probably not an issue that is going to be resolved at any point. To that end, once more, you are going to accomplish so much more at improving GW2's combat dynamics by just cherry-picking the "role-defining" or "fun" skills and compressing them into a respectively class-specific option pools that are small enough that nobody has to worry about running any "bad" skills. Then you just improve the overall gameplay cycle by giving players more chances to use abilities aside from just 1-spam.

Or we can take what isn't working anywhere due to age and make it better. For axe it was the fact that ALL of its skills were worthless next to AA, they made the other weapon skills worth using.

The only thing that they did was buff their damage. That's how shallow GW2 is: everything has always basically been a DPS race; the only changes to that dynamic over GW2's lifetime have exclusively been heavy-handed band-aids (like just slapping a "heal spam" bar onto Ranger and Guardian respectively). That's why you will always net better results by compressing the overall skill base into more enjoyable and free-form mechanics which promote high mobility and range-switching on the fly. If the fundamental combat cycle is designed around this sort of dynamic, then numbers can just be adjusted later in order to make sure nobody falls behind in content with a low concern for skill balance (such as instanced PvE DPS).

For Sword it is mainly F1.Sword is "mostly" OK mainly because it is partially redeemed by the fact that it has a huge leap on a pretty low cooldown. Like I've said, range flexibility and movement are super utilitarian and generally fun fundamentals around which to build a combat dynamic. That, combined with the fact that GW2's combat is, as I've said, mostly just focused on pumping out DPS (or instantly negating it), means that you're much better off just making a few sets with a lot of mobility, a fun combat cycle, and some baseline CC options; and then you can worry about their DPS afterward.

Mace/Mace is still the best breakbar set, and Mace 4 adds a large stack of vulnerability with good damage, it is just rarely run because A) Shield block is too good in competitive game modes, and shield stun is as good as Mace 5 and B.) OH Axe cleaves better for DPS.

And yet hammer still exists. Why would you just let that linger? Why not just compress everything? Why continue to preserve bloat like this? If it's all just so binary as "This is good for breakbar," and "This is good for DPS cleave" then why have so many random weapon sets lying around basically doing nothing--or, potentially worse, lying around and doing nothing except for a handful of niche instanced fights?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:How about not deleting Dagger OH. It is useful in an Axe/Dagger set up for really good sustain, and Wastrel's Ruin hits hard in WvW.

Yeah, but it's an incredibly boring design: half-second amount of time spent in action compared to a 12s cooldown period; deals nearly the baseline damage of an Elementalist meteor with a very easy means of doubling that. You can stick Wastrel's Ruin anywhere if you really want to keep it (as cheesy as it is). There are plenty of worthless skills floating around the Warrior's bank of bloat. Throw it on mace off-hand 4 and rework mace off-hand 5 because the idea here is to make main-hand sword functional, fair and fun to play via high mobility and flexible combat range. Axe/X, by all rights, means relying on auto attacks sustained by low-effort delay tactics along with absurd DPS powercreep on things like Cyclone Axe and Throw Axe (two of the most boring skills to ever exist, yet they are made "viable" simply because they've received respective baseline damage buffs that can run their numbers up to over 200% of what they were at launch). How about just shifting to the movement meta while abandoning hard-counters and Runescape-tier combat; or, at the very least, not base combat design around WvW (a mode in which team numbers and stats are inherently imbalanced)?

Or we can take what isn't working anywhere due to age and make it better. For axe it was the fact that ALL of its skills were worthless next to AA, they made the other weapon skills worth using. For Sword it is mainly F1. Mace/Mace is still the best breakbar set, and Mace 4 adds a large stack of vulnerability with good damage, it is just rarely run because A) Shield block is too good in competitive game modes, and shield stun is as good as Mace 5 and B.) OH Axe cleaves better for DPS.

With GW2, compression of the current skill base is always going to yield better results than just buffing or re-working things. There is really just so little to go on when it comes to role-defining support or movement across all classes, so if you keep buffing or re-designing all of these skills which nobody uses, you're basically just going to end up supplanting current skill sets. We don't have an infinite amount of space for skill options--very little in fact--so the more you buff "underperforming" things, the more bloat you will end up creating in the end.

The biggest issue here is that GW2 is a shallow game, and that's probably not an issue that is going to be resolved at any point. To that end, once more, you are going to accomplish so much more at improving GW2's combat dynamics by just cherry-picking the "role-defining" or "fun" skills and compressing them into a respectively class-specific option pools that are small enough that nobody has to worry about running any "bad" skills. Then you just improve the overall gameplay cycle by giving players more chances to use abilities aside from just 1-spam.

Or we can take what isn't working anywhere due to age and make it better. For axe it was the fact that ALL of its skills were worthless next to AA, they made the other weapon skills worth using.

The only thing that they did was buff their damage. That's how shallow GW2 is: everything has always basically been a DPS race; the only changes to that dynamic over GW2's lifetime have exclusively been heavy-handed band-aids (like just slapping a "heal spam" bar onto Ranger and Guardian respectively). That's why you will always net better results by compressing the overall skill base into more enjoyable and free-form mechanics which promote high mobility and range-switching on the fly. If the fundamental combat cycle is designed around this sort of dynamic, then numbers can just be adjusted later in order to make sure nobody falls behind in content with a low concern for skill balance (such as instanced PvE DPS).

For Sword it is mainly F1.Sword is "mostly" OK mainly because it is partially redeemed by the fact that it has a huge leap on a pretty low cooldown. Like I've said, range flexibility and movement are super utilitarian and generally fun fundamentals around which to build a combat dynamic. That, combined with the fact that GW2's combat is, as I've said, mostly just focused on pumping out DPS (or instantly negating it), means that you're much better off just making a few sets with a lot of mobility, a fun combat cycle, and some baseline CC options; and then you can worry about their DPS afterward.

Mace/Mace is still the best breakbar set, and Mace 4 adds a large stack of vulnerability with good damage, it is just rarely run because A) Shield block is too good in competitive game modes, and shield stun is as good as Mace 5 and B.) OH Axe cleaves better for DPS.

And yet hammer still exists. Why would you just let that linger? Why not just compress everything? Why continue to preserve bloat like this? If it's all just so binary as "This is good for breakbar," and "This is good for DPS cleave" then why have so many random weapon sets lying around basically doing nothing--or, potentially worse, lying around and doing nothing except for a handful of niche instanced fights?

Hammer exists for AoE CC. Mace/Mace still breaks bars quicker.

You statement about “so many weapon sets laying around doing nothing” proves that indeed various weapon sets need buffing. Buffing is more than increasing damage modifiers, it is also CD reduction, boon or condi addition, and to the entire point of THIS thread which you seemed to have glossed over, reworking the skill entirely. As for ‘compressing’ the skill base, GW2 already has one of the smallest skill bases in any mmo outside of the Diablo franchise and its clones. Indeed one of the long running gripes about warrior in GW2 is that it has too few skills at its disposal.

[Swagg.9236]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:How about not deleting Dagger OH. It is useful in an Axe/Dagger set up for really good sustain, and Wastrel's Ruin hits hard in WvW.

Yeah, but it's an incredibly boring design: half-second amount of time spent in action compared to a 12s cooldown period; deals nearly the baseline damage of an Elementalist meteor with a very easy means of doubling that. You can stick Wastrel's Ruin anywhere if you really want to keep it (as cheesy as it is). There are plenty of worthless skills floating around the Warrior's bank of bloat. Throw it on mace off-hand 4 and rework mace off-hand 5 because the idea here is to make main-hand sword functional, fair and fun to play via high mobility and flexible combat range. Axe/X, by all rights, means relying on auto attacks sustained by low-effort delay tactics along with absurd DPS powercreep on things like Cyclone Axe and Throw Axe (two of the most boring skills to ever exist, yet they are made "viable" simply because they've received respective baseline damage buffs that can run their numbers up to over 200% of what they were at launch). How about just shifting to the movement meta while abandoning hard-counters and Runescape-tier combat; or, at the very least, not base combat design around WvW (a mode in which team numbers and stats are inherently imbalanced)?

Or we can take what isn't working anywhere due to age and make it better. For axe it was the fact that ALL of its skills were worthless next to AA, they made the other weapon skills worth using. For Sword it is mainly F1. Mace/Mace is still the best breakbar set, and Mace 4 adds a large stack of vulnerability with good damage, it is just rarely run because A) Shield block is too good in competitive game modes, and shield stun is as good as Mace 5 and B.) OH Axe cleaves better for DPS.

With GW2, compression of the current skill base is always going to yield better results than just buffing or re-working things. There is really just so little to go on when it comes to role-defining support or movement across all classes, so if you keep buffing or re-designing all of these skills which nobody uses, you're basically just going to end up supplanting current skill sets. We don't have an infinite amount of space for skill options--very little in fact--so the more you buff "underperforming" things, the more bloat you will end up creating in the end.

The biggest issue here is that GW2 is a shallow game, and that's probably not an issue that is going to be resolved at any point. To that end, once more, you are going to accomplish so much more at improving GW2's combat dynamics by just cherry-picking the "role-defining" or "fun" skills and compressing them into a respectively class-specific option pools that are small enough that nobody has to worry about running any "bad" skills. Then you just improve the overall gameplay cycle by giving players more chances to use abilities aside from just 1-spam.

Or we can take what isn't working anywhere due to age and make it better. For axe it was the fact that ALL of its skills were worthless next to AA, they made the other weapon skills worth using.

The only thing that they did was buff their damage. That's how shallow GW2 is: everything has always basically been a DPS race; the only changes to that dynamic over GW2's lifetime have exclusively been heavy-handed band-aids (like just slapping a "heal spam" bar onto Ranger and Guardian respectively). That's why you will always net better results by compressing the overall skill base into more enjoyable and free-form mechanics which promote high mobility and range-switching on the fly. If the fundamental combat cycle is designed around this sort of dynamic, then numbers can just be adjusted later in order to make sure nobody falls behind in content with a low concern for skill balance (such as instanced PvE DPS).

For Sword it is mainly F1.Sword is "mostly" OK mainly because it is partially redeemed by the fact that it has a huge leap on a pretty low cooldown. Like I've said, range flexibility and movement are super utilitarian and generally fun fundamentals around which to build a combat dynamic. That, combined with the fact that GW2's combat is, as I've said, mostly just focused on pumping out DPS (or instantly negating it), means that you're much better off just making a few sets with a lot of mobility, a fun combat cycle, and some baseline CC options; and then you can worry about their DPS afterward.

Mace/Mace is still the best breakbar set, and Mace 4 adds a large stack of vulnerability with good damage, it is just rarely run because A) Shield block is too good in competitive game modes, and shield stun is as good as Mace 5 and B.) OH Axe cleaves better for DPS.

And yet hammer still exists. Why would you just let that linger? Why not just compress everything? Why continue to preserve bloat like this? If it's all just so binary as "This is good for breakbar," and "This is good for DPS cleave" then why have so many random weapon sets lying around basically doing nothing--or, potentially worse, lying around and doing nothing except for a handful of niche instanced fights?

Hammer exists for AoE CC. Mace/Mace still breaks bars quicker.

And WHO NEEDS AOE CC???? Everyone in PvP/WvW is dripping in stability (not to mention how other classes do AoE CC better than Warrior anyway), and you already said how hammer is just inferior to a mace set-up for the only sort of PvE content that counts! What is Warrior hammer's purpose? What makes it deserve to exist?? Gathering node meta??

You statement about “so many weapon sets laying around doing nothing” proves that indeed various weapon sets need buffing. Buffing is more than increasing damage modifiers, it is also CD reduction, boon or condi addition, and to the entire point of THIS thread which you seemed to have glossed over, reworking the skill entirely. As for ‘compressing’ the skill base, GW2 already has one of the smallest skill bases in any mmo outside of the Diablo franchise and its clones. Indeed one of the long running gripes about warrior in GW2 is that it has too few skills at its disposal.

Warrior's problem has always been that it was designed to be the "easiest class to play" in a game without cross-classing. This is stuff that the devs would say in 2012-13 when people were crying about how Warrior literally just auto-attacked in high-end PvE and died to everything in PvP. It had no style, it had no grace, this class should have been erased. Basically, for all of the Warrior's bevy of weapon options, none of them were really any good, and most of them featured very, low-effort skill designs like "throw axe" or "hit with mace to inflict vulnerability" or Hamstring on Sword 3. Everything was garbage due to producing quantity over quality for no reason except flavor's sake, and eventually it was easy to see design fatigue emerge in the form of copy-cat skills (throw torch = throw axe; multiple classes chuck a greatsword in a line; multiple classes hold single-time blocks which flow into auto-retaliate attacks; loads of skills which are basically just auto-attacks except with a daze or a condition slapped onto them).

I guarantee you that if you seek to buff any of Warrior's "underperforming" legacy weapons, you will just end up either making them overpowered versions of exactly what they already are (which is the typical anet solution in many cases) or you will end up taking a mechanic which already exists and just painting it "Warrior color" for the sake of slapping it onto a Warrior weapon which makes "flavor sense." Even if the borrowed mechanic is "fun" and "enjoyable" to use, we aren't expanding on any sort of combat dynamic here because it's all just content recycling at the end of the day. Neither of those buff solutions will help define any sort of class combat role or identity in what is supposed to be an RPG. Design like that just contributes to the same sort of generic combat which governs all of GW2 right now: negate incoming damage while dealing damage. That's all any class does or attempts to do in some way. Every class is mostly the same in GW2 with regards to their respective ultimate design goals precisely because anet threw in so much bloat.

tl;dr: Hammer does CC and mace does CC. There is zero reason why the game needs both when the best of both can just be compressed into one weapon set considering how both have their share of "bad" skills which nobody would miss and which nobody would be able to simultaneously use anyway if you went ahead with your plan to "buff" both sets according to how you see fit. One is always going to be worse than the other, hence your ideas for buffing things will only sustain bloat or create more of it. Since anet isn't going to make new sorts of ways in which players can engage in combat, might as well prune down to the interesting bits, shift combat paradigms from stationary damage negation toward high mobility and range-switching, and then divvy up the unique styles among the classes so at least each one has an actual identity and role for once.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Hammer aoe cc with sigil of absorption, spellbreaker, and enchantment collapse will rip 5 boons on five targets per earthshaker or hammer 4 while also fueling attackers insight. If you have sigil of draining you will steal 1k health from each for up to a 5k heal on each of those skills. Indeed in WvW GS/Hammer spellbreakers are a common build for this reason.

tl;dr you have no idea how a basic and common build is used in WvW. Now stop derailing the Flurry thread.

[BadMed.3846]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@alcopaul.2156 said:lel?

kitten is this stuff?

flurry is useful coz of immobilize.

the damage and condi are just bonuses, which still has significant dmg because of full zerker gear.

Uhm... you let Flurry finish its cast? Or you immediately weapon stow it after procing Megabane Tether and immobilize? Or was it sarcasm? I am confused.You really think that people in current balance will happily wait for your Flurry to finish its cast and eat that super amazing damage with some bleed stacks? Oooof...

I guess it has been successfully tested on bandits in Queensdale.

[Swagg.9236]

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:tl;dr you have no idea how a basic and common build is used in WvW. Now stop derailing the Flurry thread.

Probably because I play PvP and not that flailing mosh pit of a game mode. I'll make this my last comment here, but seriously, do not, under any circumstances, attempt to design around WvW. It features all of the worst, low-effort, PvE-tier gimmicks thrown into a setting in which players can fight other players. Don't use it as a foundation for skill changes or class design. It's a terrible idea. I also like how the defense for Warrior hammer (a launch-date weapon) is "it procs all of these passives (one of which has only existed for, like, a quarter of this game's lifespan) when I bot into a mob of lemming players" rather than "it's fun to use and serves a class-defining purpose in all modes." Warrior hammer's passive boon rip isn't a unique mechanic. The whole point of what I've been saying is that you need to make unique mechanics and roles if you want to stop the bloat and give actual purpose to the classes aside from just being DPS. That's how you stop further bad design and powercreep.

[DKRathalos.9625]

But don't you guys think Warrior could have more than just sword overhaul? I mean like most of the weapon doesn't get enough love.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Swagg.9236

Nothing in this thread is mode specific. Flurry is used in NONE of the game modes outside of new players trying out their skills in Queensdale and persistent noobs. The only time F1 gets clicked while camping core sword is to trigger burst traits and it gets immediately cancelled after that, so Flurry itself doesn't get used outside of activating the burst.

You cannot tell me that you do not want something other than Flurry on core F1 sword. Even an interrupt? Even unrooting it? Even a faster channel time? A CC? More bleeds? More direct damage? A reflect? Any of that?

Skills have to be balanced around large play, because guess what, PvE and WvW are just that, and they are the majority of the player base. Skill splits exist to tone things down for PvP. Now tell me, instead of being a doom and gloom naysayer, what would you do to make Flurry actually usable anywhere?

@DKRathalos.9625 said:But don't you guys think Warrior could have more than just sword overhaul? I mean like most of the weapon doesn't get enough love.

You are not wrong, there is a laundry list. To name a few:unroot 100Bunroot Killshotunroot/rework FlurryMake Rifle Great Againrework OH swordrework OH Mace (I think it is just fine but others do not)rework MH mace (I think it is just fine but others do not)Warhorn (they are changing this! looks like great changes as well).

Making individual threads though to focus on a single part allows for some great ideas to get discussed, sans the random noobs/elitists who contribute nothing either here or anywhere for that matter.

As to 'sword overhaul' MH sword is mostly fine except for Flurry, and there are a large number of great ideas in this thread on what to replace it with, or how to change it to make it worth using. OH sword suffers from being more of a condi weapon when the condi build is Berzerker with sword/torch being better than sword/sword. To make sword/sword a better choice to take they'd have to do a few things:

Rework Blademaster (again) this time granting more condi damage per sword equipped, not unlike Axe Mastery is with ferocity. So with 2 swords it would grant 120 expertise and 240 condi damage, in addition to CD reduction.For Sword 4 and Sword 5 they'd have to increase the power coefficients (again) and/or increase the condi output.

Part of the problem is that sword MH and OH are both hybrid damage focused, so they can't raise the condi too high or power too high, and since players focus on one damage type rather than on hybrid damage sword/sword falls behind sword/torch.

[DKRathalos.9625]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You are not wrong, there is a laundry list. To name a few:unroot 100Bunroot Killshotunroot/rework FlurryMake Rifle Great Againrework OH swordrework OH Mace (I think it is just fine but others do not)rework MH mace (I think it is just fine but others do not)Warhorn (they are changing this! looks like great changes as well).

I'll add hammer to the laundry lists, Hammer right now is too clunky and way too telegraphed.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@DKRathalos.9625 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You are not wrong, there is a laundry list. To name a few:unroot 100Bunroot Killshotunroot/rework FlurryMake Rifle Great Againrework OH swordrework OH Mace (I think it is just fine but others do not)rework MH mace (I think it is just fine but others do not)Warhorn (they are changing this! looks like great changes as well).

I'll add hammer to the laundry lists, Hammer right now is too clunky and way too telegraphed.

Not that I would complain about attack speed increases on hammer, but hammer is nowhere near as in need of updates as some other things.

[starlinvf.1358]

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Crippling_Slash Just saying....

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@"starlinvf.1358" said:https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Crippling_Slash Just saying....

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dragon_Slashhttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Quivering_Blade

There are plenty of old archetypal sword skills from GW1 that would be a great basis for a new Sword F1. Myself and others did not mention the inclusion of CC in our ideas for no reason.