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Latest Scourge upcoming changes (finalized)


EremiteAngel.9765

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@MethaneGas.8357 said:

@"Serenity.6304" said:This is the only way we can still change something. The rework is done now anyway, but at least we can fight for a "dismiss all sand shades" button.Agreed that we will need a "remove all shades" button so you can quickly swap between ranged DPS and melee DPS. With these changes, there's literally no way to defend yourself from melee attackers, which is ridiculous.

Incoming salty ranting in 3, 2, 1....In PvP, if you want to contribute to a team fight, you drop your shades from a distance.... but now, as soon as you drop your shades far away, the enemy will just focus you down because you won't have cleanse from F2, won't have barrier from F3, won't be able to fear melee attackers with F4, won't be able to pressure melee attackers with F5..... in other words, you'll be a defenseless bag of bones. This change is so.... backwards..... :#I guess you COULD drop a shade on top of yourself so you have one in the distance and one on melee, but that's still ridiculous and clunky. You can't possibly kite around a shade and survive. You can't afford to sit still in PvP - you gotta move and kite as a Necro. It's literally the only way to survive. And kiting is impossible if you have to stay on top of your shades. So you have two options - kite away from your shades but sacrifice F2,F3,F4,F5, OR stay on top of your shade like a sitting duck but keep F2,F3,F4,F5. Truly something that will separate good players from bad /sarcasmOn the other hand, if you take Sand Savant so you got a nice, big shade to kite around, you're also screwed because you have only one shade. As soon as you drop it far away from you, you're screwed. If you re-cast it on top of yourself (assuming you don't get instakilled before then), the cooldown is so long that eventually you won't be able to keep re-positioning your shade to keep up with your kitting. Eh..... I can't see a way around this to make it manageable without having a "remove all shades" button.

The barrier reduction is also ridiculous. The whole thing about scourge is to have barrier instead of deathshroud/reaper shroud. Now that barrier will be even smaller, and this change will mostly affect Curses Scourge, which is already harder and more squishy than Blood Scourge!!!Couldn't they just reduce the amount of barrier that allies get while not changing the barrier that the Necro gets? (so the Necro keeps its defensive capabilities but has reduced support?) -_- Logic? No? Okay.... :astonished:

The only upside is - this might make core Necro <3 or Reaper a better option in PvP because the alternative has been gutted like a piglet. So I guess it's not all bad, just the fact that scourge will suck.

TL:DR:
ugly cry

Very good summary, thank you for posting it also in the other thread.Maybe they will rethink the rework for PvP, but I highly doubt it. All we can do is try. I will try scourge ofc in unranked first with different strategies. Like playing only melee and then placing all the shades when I am 100 % sure they will hit (like for downed cleave), or playing ranged and ALWAYS using the no port spots (as a scourge you should using them right now anyhow) and kiting MUCH EARLIER away when get pressured...If I feel like I don't do any significant dmg or get killed immediately because I don't have any self-defense anymore (this is my prediction), I will switch to another class. For PvP I can only recommend playing at least two different classes (or specs, as you said) equally so that you still have something to play with when such a nerf resulting in deletion of a spec in PvP hits us.

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In my opinion the changes are designed to force specialization in tactics and builds.Currently you can play scourge as condi, power, or cele gear and in a zerg it really doesnt matter as your effectiveness is the same. Your there to occupy space with shades, wells, and marks and currupt bomb the enemy

After the changes a Build that will drop its shades on an enemy group will need to be different than a build that is going to support around the scourge without shades.There will now be a premium on roles as opposed to one build to rule them all regardless of gear.

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WORST change everthis fix nothing in WvW people complain about scourge hit 10 (range & melee ) target now it hit 10 target ( range or melee )while destroying support & dps scourge in PvEscourge was the shitiest dps class in PvE now it will become shity and clunck and useless on moving target ( which is most of the fight scourge is viable at )do arena-net think nobody play scourge in PvE ????????

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@Maven.1690 said:In my opinion the changes are designed to force specialization in tactics and builds.Currently you can play scourge as condi, power, or cele gear and in a zerg it really doesnt matter as your effectiveness is the same. You're there to occupy space with shades, wells, and marks and corrupt bomb the enemy

After the changes a Build that will drop its shades on an enemy group will need to be different than a build that is going to support around the scourge without shades.There will now be a premium on roles as opposed to one build to rule them all regardless of gear.

Does it actually change tactics though? It just encourages more pirateshipping.

Current barrier (and condi cleanse) application is around the scourge as well, but with this change you just apply the barrier before you put the shades. The only way to change the way scourge is played is to lower base barrier levels and increase healing power contribution to barrier level. It seems they did address this part (barriers), but the carpet bombing of everything up to 10 targets in 900 range with the sand savant trait seems poorly thought out. Because each scourge is hitting more targets at range, you can spec into healing power and still have the same total damage output (at range) so long as your damage is at least 50% of what it was.

As far as barrier goes, cele or marshal's has higher barrier amounts but when people are running multiple scourges the difference isn't as noticeable due to the barrier cap of 50% health. Condi damage does have an effect : it increases the damage of corrupted boons (burning, bleeding, poison, etc) and if you're running scepter or staff it has a direct impact on your outgoing conditions' damage as well.

This helps nothing with regard to small scale (roaming) or PvP type scenarios where hitting 10 targets is not a given , boons aren't as plentiful, and barriers aren't stacked en masse.

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@Infusion.7149 said:

@Maven.1690 said:In my opinion the changes are designed to force specialization in tactics and builds.Currently you can play scourge as condi, power, or cele gear and in a zerg it really doesnt matter as your effectiveness is the same. You're there to occupy space with shades, wells, and marks and corrupt bomb the enemy

After the changes a Build that will drop its shades on an enemy group will need to be different than a build that is going to support around the scourge without shades.There will now be a premium on roles as opposed to one build to rule them all regardless of gear.

Does it actually change tactics though? It just encourages more pirateshipping.

Current barrier (and condi cleanse) application is around the scourge as well, but with this change you just apply the barrier before you put the shades. The only way to change the way scourge is played is to lower base barrier levels and increase healing power contribution to barrier level. It seems they did address this part (barriers), but the carpet bombing of everything up to 10 targets in 900 range with the sand savant trait seems poorly thought out. Because each scourge is hitting more targets at range, you can spec into healing power and still have the same total damage output (at range) so long as your damage is at least 50% of what it was.

As far as barrier goes, cele or marshal's has higher barrier amounts but when people are running multiple scourges the difference isn't as noticeable due to the barrier cap of 50% health. Condi damage does have an effect : it increases the damage of corrupted boons (burning, bleeding, poison, etc) and if you're running scepter or staff it has a direct impact on your outgoing conditions' damage as well.

This helps nothing with regard to small scale (roaming) or PvP type scenarios where hitting 10 targets is not a given , boons aren't as plentiful, and barriers aren't stacked en masse.

I think it does change it....as yes you can cast the sand cascade and run in now, but that barrier only lasts a few seconds....once you place that shade though you are left defenseless for 15 seconds as all the f skills now happen at the shade, yes you can cast it near yourself for support but now you have taken away a third of your dps. So now it will be more of a balancing act in longer sustained battles of when and wear you can use your shades instead of everyone just flooding the field as they do now.Not to mention if you spec for DPS your actual barrier size will be pitifully useless

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:The thing is that warrior is designed around the idea that it play with "power". Increasing it's own power and it's allies power. The whole design of this profession revolve around this idea since launch. This is something that led ANet to reduce the warrior overall coefficient in the early days of the game because it made them the absolute king of PvE (Before the elementalist era). The issue is that it made the warrior an absolute trash in PvP, which led to balance in "numbers" that slowly put the warrior closer to it's release strength. Which is why despite their PvE support they deal an astounding level of damage now. The very existence of their support make them impossible to really balance in the game.

The necromancer is in a different position. The necromancer is designed to make use of conditions, changing boons into conditions and conditions into boons, gathering conditions on himself and sending them on it's foes. Similarly to the warrior, it make the necromancer extremly difficult to balance for all gamemode throught numbers. However in case of the necromancer it's because PvE isn't designed to make use of the necromancer's design.

The warrior's tools make him very strong in PvE and below average in PvP while the necromancer's tools make him strong in PvP and below average in PvE. Since ANet try it's best to address PvP in priority and a lot of players think that it's how it should be, the current situation is logical. The thing is that the necromancer need PvE to change for him to become balanced. The warrior on another hand is an impossible equation, it just cannot be "balanced" unless you remove from him the unique tools that give extra power which would go against it's design.

Except Warrior is both insanely strong and meta in PvP (Spb) and PvE (BS-, Core, Berserker), while Necromancer is irrelevant in PvE (aside from condi Scourge with Epi on SH, and some other niche uses of hScourge for training groups) and just alright in PvP as Scourge unless getting carried by a FB negating all it's weaknesses.

So not only does Warrior add the most group DPS out of all professions to PvE, it's also the ultimate sidenoder in PvP.The comparison between the two falls a bit short there.

ArenaNet also has shown to be unwilling over the last 7 years to change the design of all of PvE just to cater to Necro in order to make it viable, so maybe it's about time to just redesign Necro?As much as these proposed changes make sense in a vacuum, Necromancer doesn't work without getting carried by it's elite specialisations, and without a extensive core rework will just end up weaker in all the places it's already struggling to even be just absolute bottom tier viable as it is now.

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@Maven.1690 said:

Does it actually change tactics though? It just encourages more pirateshipping.

Current barrier (and condi cleanse) application is around the scourge as well, but with this change you just apply the barrier before you put the shades. The only way to change the way scourge is played is to lower base barrier levels and increase healing power contribution to barrier level. It seems they did address this part (barriers), but the carpet bombing of everything up to 10 targets in 900 range with the sand savant trait seems poorly thought out. Because each scourge is hitting more targets at range, you can spec into healing power and still have the same total damage output (at range) so long as your damage is at least 50% of what it was.

As far as barrier goes, cele or marshal's has higher barrier amounts but when people are running multiple scourges the difference isn't as noticeable due to the barrier cap of 50% health. Condi damage does have an effect : it increases the damage of corrupted boons (burning, bleeding, poison, etc) and if you're running scepter or staff it has a direct impact on your outgoing conditions' damage as well.

This helps nothing with regard to small scale (roaming) or PvP type scenarios where hitting 10 targets is not a given , boons aren't as plentiful, and barriers aren't stacked en masse.

I think it does change it....as yes you can cast the sand cascade and run in now, but that barrier only lasts a few seconds....once you place that shade though you are left defenseless for 15 seconds as all the f skills now happen at the shade, yes you can cast it near yourself for support but now you have taken away a third of your dps. So now it will be more of a balancing act in longer sustained battles of when and wear you can use your shades instead of everyone just flooding the field as they do now.Not to mention if you spec for DPS your actual barrier size will be pitifully useless

Unless I'm mistaken , the new barrier affects 10 targets. You need half the scourges ; barrier is capped at 50% HP anyway. You can have your support scourges save the additional barriers for the melee range or cast shades closer to your group. Sand Flare's base barrier is only getting cut by 25%. (Sand Flare doesn't mention anything about shades currently.)

It also doesn't change the Sand Swell skill for miniature portal bombs.

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@Flumek.9043 said:

@Flumek.9043 said:This is ULTRA CRINGE LEVEL of clunky.

Even for ANet, and even for necro standards.

I think the best way for PVP is TO NEVER place a shade untill you already win a fight and are clearing downed bodies. Pathetic bad design.

it just means if you want to cover the point and yourself you now have to place 2 shades one on the point and one on yourself or simply move yourself to your placed shade. its different it not exactly game breaking but it is forcing you to use more resources or not and just be the shade yourself.

Perhaps though this is part of their overall plans with what they have cooked up for death magic.

I understand what it means.

And you use words like "JUST" pretty casually.

How else am i suppose to use it?

Just drop a nuke.Sounds like you understand it pretty well i mean considering this is what scourge was released ass originallyJust nerf it to oblivion. Just make it even stronger in WWW where its main problem, while making it even glassier and clunkier in PVP where its almost unplayable.Thats going a bit over the top dont you think then again what are they suppose to do not have it be viable in any place?

And then you still have trust in Anet, in necro, and in DeathMagic getting reworked for 3rd time ?Depending on what they do i would consider this the first reworkI dont count that small change they did to like 2 traits 2 years ago or something thats not a rework thats an update. A rework would consist of at least 60-80% of the traits in the entire line getting some sort of change, get removed or moved to other lines that make more sense, or receiving Quality of life changes that make them useful in the current game time frame. If you can show me 2 previous attempts where this is happened feel free just prove me wrong.

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@OutOfOrder.3719 said:It sounds like this change to the Scourge Shade mechanic will nerf PvP and PvE builds hard, and do nothing to address WvW large scale battles. what the kitten ??

It wont really be a nerf in pve at all it will just require the player to pay slightly more attention to deal damage specifically for end game content.In pvp it is a nerf because scourge now is an easier target if it summon a shade.in wvw well... better get your anti tox runes.

LOL

But that said i mean if they make scourge subpar in every mode what is it suppose to do.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@OutOfOrder.3719 said:It sounds like this change to the Scourge Shade mechanic will nerf PvP and PvE builds hard, and do nothing to address WvW large scale battles. what the kitten ??

It wont really be a nerf in pve at all it will just require the player to pay slightly more attention to deal damage specifically for end game content.In pvp it is a nerf because scourge now is an easier target if it summon a shade.in wvw well... better get your anti tox runes.

LOL

But that said i mean if they make scourge subpar in every mode what is it suppose to do.

Think about how this affects dpsing moving targets....

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How can ANET slip in this change in shade mechanic for Scourge and hope that no one would notice?

Although I don’t think dps curse oriented builds won’t be effected that much, the blood support builds will be effected in PvP.

Now I can see no damage happening when a scourge has already cast manifest shade, but taking barrier away and not casting it on a Necro when using F5 will nerf Scourge into oblivion.

We really need more details on whether these changes are only for WvW and involve only “Sand Savant”, or the change to the Shade Mechanic in Scourge is also for PvP and PvE.

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@Josiah.2967 said:

@OutOfOrder.3719 said:It sounds like this change to the Scourge Shade mechanic will nerf PvP and PvE builds hard, and do nothing to address WvW large scale battles. what the kitten ??

It wont really be a nerf in pve at all it will just require the player to pay slightly more attention to deal damage specifically for end game content.In pvp it is a nerf because scourge now is an easier target if it summon a shade.in wvw well... better get your anti tox runes.

LOL

But that said i mean if they make scourge subpar in every mode what is it suppose to do.

Think about how this affects dpsing moving targets....

Scourge was not suppose to be a dps that might be part of the problem.

That said if you want to dps a moving target then dont summon a shade and move next to said target then use shade skills like every other form of necro... but you dont have a true shroud or hard defensive tools....

hmmmm problem seems to go back to core necro woops...

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And if dps is the problem, then the flat damage should be minimized from manifest shade.

But removing the barrier application from shades or only around the necro when no shade is up: is too harsh of a nerf that will remove the small amount of sustain that Necro needs to not die instantly in PvP.

Necro is already considered a free kill at platinium 1 or higher games when played without support. Now it will be even harder to play Scourge in solo que and Blood Scourge will probably be eliminated from the meta.

And the problem is that Scourge in WvW will still be a powerhouse, and still not be addressed. This was supposed to be improve WvW, not destoru Scourge in PvP and nerfed in PvE. This just shows a lack of understanding from the balance team to acknowledge the real problem of Scourge in WvW, which is Sand Savant taking up half the screen !

And the balance team just increased the amount of targets from 5 to 10 that Sand Savant hits now ! Why ?

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@fewfield.7802 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:PVE - NerfWvW - BuffPVP - Delete

I am so confused.

How is it nerf in pve ?

In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

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@Waldrun.8493 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:PVE - NerfWvW - BuffPVP - Delete

I am so confused.

How is it nerf in pve ?

In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

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@fewfield.7802 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:PVE - NerfWvW - BuffPVP - Delete

I am so confused.

How is it nerf in pve ?

In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k. And it's a non moving Target. In real raid situations, it might get much worse.But if you are trying to push it in dps direction, there has to be a lot of work done.Cause personal dps of scourge is almost garbage right now, and scourge is only taken for it's utility, which is epidemic right now.To kill some adds...
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@Nimon.7840 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:PVE - NerfWvW - BuffPVP - Delete

I am so confused.

How is it nerf in pve ?

In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?
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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:PVE - NerfWvW - BuffPVP - Delete

I am so confused.

How is it nerf in pve ?

In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:PVE - NerfWvW - BuffPVP - Delete

I am so confused.

How is it nerf in pve ?

In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic

But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:PVE - NerfWvW - BuffPVP - Delete

I am so confused.

How is it nerf in pve ?

In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic

But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???

Hmmm, you're obviously never gonna give up curses, but Soul Reaping ... We'll have to test how that pans out: I guess the new Death Magic is still not gonna outperform Dhuumfire though.It is a buff for core Necro though, but core DPS was SOOOOOOOOOO far behind of Reaper and Scourge, I doubt if these changes will make core more competitive (DPS-wise)

So, to conclude, I'm afraid these are all straight up nerfs again for Necro if we look at it from a PvE endgame perspective. And there I thought we couldn't sink any deeper (being the bottom of the barrel, for a long time already) ...

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