Updated Sept. Engi Balance Changes

[Chaith.8256]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Who is we?

Myself and Coro, the two people replying to you primarily about the real impact of Impact Savant changes.

Btw, nobody thinks it's contemptible as you put it that you're being excited about buffs, it's just myself and others disagree on the projected benefits you and @Prinzsecond.4863 are projecting. Right, I'll get gooder at arguing, thanks for the advice.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

Honestly, how else do you get someone to hear you when the argument is at a dead end other than to address how they argue?

Tried a meta-level zoom out.

Anyway, I'm excited to try the new changes. And I don't think being optimistic about how they'll play out is a bad thing.

[Vagrant.7206]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Honestly, how else do you get someone to hear you when the argument is at a dead end other than to address how they argue?

Protip: Don't try. If you know nobody's listening, don't talk.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Honestly, how else do you get someone to hear you when the argument is at a dead end other than to address how they argue?

Protip: Don't try. If you know nobody's listening, don't talk.

Think you've trolled the thread enough?

[Vagrant.7206]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Honestly, how else do you get someone to hear you when the argument is at a dead end other than to address how they argue?

Protip: Don't try. If you know nobody's listening, don't talk.

Think you've trolled the thread enough?

Nawp.

Welcome to the GW2 forums! We've got broken records everywhere!

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Honestly, how else do you get someone to hear you when the argument is at a dead end other than to address how they argue?

Protip: Don't try. If you know nobody's listening, don't talk.

Think you've trolled the thread enough?

Nawp.

Welcome to the GW2 forums! We've got broken records everywhere!

Fair point. That's the sad thing about fourms. The very argument we would have had over a beer... That would have taken like 3min... Makes it look like we want to kill each other... When in reality we could have read expressions and tone, and completely skipped the 'argument' part and kept it in discussion-land.

But hey. I like to argue. I try not to be a dick. Makes winning harder. Makes me wanna argue more. But hey....

Still excited about that condition damage barrier return. Huh? Huh? Huh? makes uncomfortable eye contact around the room

[Vagrant.7206]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Honestly, how else do you get someone to hear you when the argument is at a dead end other than to address how they argue?

Protip: Don't try. If you know nobody's listening, don't talk.

Think you've trolled the thread enough?

Nawp.

Welcome to the GW2 forums! We've got broken records everywhere!

Fair point. That's the sad thing about fourms. The very argument we would have had over a beer... That would have taken like 3min... Makes it look like we want to kill each other... When in reality we could have read expressions and tone, and completely skipped the 'argument' part and kept it in discussion-land.

Yep! Light trolling seems to be about the only thing I can do to get people to that point.

[Prinzsecond.4863]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

Still excited about that condition damage barrier return. Huh? Huh? Huh? makes uncomfortable eye contact around the room

• raising hand with a featherbrained look in his eyes * yeess, here, me, I am!

Imaging placing a fire bomb with 4x2.5k tick in mids of a camp with 4 NPCs guards and 1 Player -> constant barrier gain of dunno... 1k/sec thanks to burning guards for like 6 seconds, during this time Focus solely on the Player. All this while having 3400 armor..... Sooo curious if this is gonna work... probably not^^

Did I just read beer?

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

I am no longer willing to motivate anyone to try out this class. It is weaker than ever before, the sustain is a joke. This tank falls as quickly as a full DPS Thief or Elementalist. The barrier we gain does not keep us in combat, it is a decorative aura. Yet there are still people who complain about our "strength." People who demand further balancing to weaken us. I became a 1-shot-target to a lot of enemies in PVE I used to solo. I turned from the #1 resurrector in the group to the #1 most resurrected person in the group. ANet makes a mockery of the Scrapper, by calling it a tank. We are an official tank-class now.

I lose more and more motivation to play it. Even created a quickbrand recently. Also thinking about playing Necromancer. I dislike Necromancer more than every class in the game, but it is an alternative to playing a permanent corpse. Their sustain is still a million times more effective than our most powerful incarnation ever was.

Looking on those incoming patch notes. Impact Savant vitality adjustment for sPvP and WvW, but not PvE.

See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally.See if there is a way? I never heard this term from a game-developer. They don't know if it is possible?

[coro.3176]

@"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:Looking on those incoming patch notes. Impact Savant vitality adjustment for sPvP and WvW, but not PvE.

See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally.See if there is a way? I never heard this term from a game-developer. They don't know if it is possible?

There almost certainly is a way. Necromancer has a GM trait that heals 10% of condition damage dealt: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Parasitic_Contagion

Also, Necromancer has this trait and almost no one uses it - on a class that really needs all the sustain/defence it can get. That is probably an indicator that a similar sort of thing for barrier would not be OP on engi.

[Prinzsecond.4863]

@"coro.3176" said:

There almost certainly is a way. Necromancer has a GM trait that heals 10% of condition damage dealt: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Parasitic_Contagion

Also, Necromancer has this trait and almost no one uses it - on a class that really needs all the sustain/defence it can get. That is probably an indicator that a similar sort of thing for barrier would not be OP on engi.

wow that is some cool info, have to admit that I did not even know this GM trait existed....

[Engal.6359]

Thank God for the holo nerfs. Finally...

[Sugar Min.5834]

First, the huge Scrapper trait nerf and now ANet is going to remove the only reason why antitoxin runes are being used. And, without the runes, Antitox Scrapper meta build loses half its effectiveness.

I am dropping Scrapper for good. Time for another break. I may go back to Support FB (don't like) or Healer Tempest (bored of it). One is the forever meta class, the other a better self sustain and more effective healer for zerging.

RIP Antitox Scrapper.

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

Impact Savant: Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180. Unfortunately it doesn't look likely we'll be able to get this trait to work with conditions for the next balance update, but we'll keep investigating other options.

[coro.3176]

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:Impact Savant: Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180. Unfortunately it doesn't look likely we'll be able to get this trait to work with conditions for the next balance update, but we'll keep investigating other options.

That's fine. I'm investigating other games.

Maybe I'll be back 6 months when it's ready. I don't really fault them for this. Their balance updates are glacially slow. At least they acknowledged that it is a thing they'd like to do.

[Iozeph.5617]

@"miriforst.1290" said:I can't help feeling like we are being haggled with.

1. Propose an insane change.
2. Propose a lighter change that seems reasonable by comparison, use this momentum to suggest further changes.
3. People forget the class took a massive nerf that broke core aspects of the scrapper and that this patch is at best implementing some light nerfs and reimplementing a tool they took away (and probably in a weaker form) at the cost of another (poison field for downed cleave and weakness). Notice how there are no proposed changes to the function gyro itself.

Honestly the reduction in vitality penalty is still undercooked given id argue the trait isn't worth any vitality reduction at all given the removal of vital traits like rapid regen and adaptive armor (to name a few of the big hits, just ignoring the removal of stab on dodge and damage mods).

Honestly i'm not surprised if people are gonna go stockholm syndrome over this.

Good thing i got the original game (not gw2, the real guild wars) to wait for people to figure things out.

Late to the discussion here.... because reasons... but yes this seems more of a sop to shut certain people up rather than anything meaningful.

I'm usually not one for analogies, but this is akin to having to take your car in to have an emissions test only to find out that when you've come back they've taken out your engine and replaced it with something a third of the size. Then after much haranguing they relent and promise to change it back, but meanwhile Ernie, the boss's mildly retarded son, the one who only "works" in the back so the public doesn't have to see him sucking on spanners with a thousand yard stare, has disassembled your engine.

You get red in the face. They make promises. You shout at the top of your lungs. They make several other excuses and beg for your patience and understanding. A week later, your engine is eventually put back although it's missing several key parts and ends up running just as badly, if not worse, as the one they'd replaced it with. Even so, it's back. It's ruined, yes, but you're so frustrated that you don't care anymore. Anything to get out of there, to drive/lurch your vehicle as far away as possible from the testing station and back to the comfort of your own home after the ordeal.

As a bonus you get a phone call from Dave, the testing station boss saying that Ernie made some modifications to allow your car to run on just about anything, petrol, diesel, melted margarine, fermented badger urine etc. and that, "It's a much greener vehicle now. Congratulations on passing your emissions test."

You slam the phone down muttering a colourful congratulations on Dave's contribution to the gene pool, and half agreeing that from now on it probably will run on anything because why not? You're already personally stretching the definition of 'run' not to mention taking your life in your hands whenever you dare to take it out on the road. More, your regular mechanic only confirms this as he points out that the engine's now on its last legs and whether it blows up today or tomorrow makes little to no difference because it's not a matter of if but when. Still, it's your motor. You love it, you still wash it, and keep it in your drive under a special tarp to keep the elements off, though now it won't even turn over.

Well meaning friends tell you to just let it go, that you'd be much happier driving a motorcycle, a scooter, inline skates, or just taking public. Your cousin Stuart, the one you never got on with, phones and mock sympathises with you for a few moments before encouraging you to buck up - to adapt and overcome. That you should, 'look at it as the glass half full because it will still run just as well as before as long as it's going down downhill.'

With the last of his obnoxious horse-laughter still echoing in your ears after you cut him off, you contemplate allowing it to 'go downhill' over Stuart, and Dave, and Ernie -god bless his little soul- or better yet - pulling up stakes and moving to another country.

[Chaith.8256]

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@"miriforst.1290" said:I can't help feeling like we are being haggled with.

1. Propose an insane change.
2. Propose a lighter change that seems reasonable by comparison, use this momentum to suggest further changes.
3. People forget the class took a massive nerf that broke core aspects of the scrapper and that this patch is at best implementing some light nerfs and reimplementing a tool they took away (and probably in a weaker form) at the cost of another (poison field for downed cleave and weakness). Notice how there are no proposed changes to the function gyro itself.

Honestly the reduction in vitality penalty is still undercooked given id argue the trait isn't worth any vitality reduction at all given the removal of vital traits like rapid regen and adaptive armor (to name a few of the big hits, just ignoring the removal of stab on dodge and damage mods).

Honestly i'm not surprised if people are gonna go stockholm syndrome over this.

Good thing i got the original game (not gw2, the real guild wars) to wait for people to figure things out.

Late to the discussion here.... because reasons... but yes this seems more of a sop to shut certain people up rather than anything meaningful.

I'm usually not one for analogies, but this is akin to having to take your car in to have an emissions test only to find out that when you've come back they've taken out your engine and replaced it with something a third of the size. Then after much haranguing they relent and promise to change it back, but meanwhile Ernie, the boss's mildly kitten son, the one who only "works" in the back so the public doesn't have to see him sucking on spanners with a thousand yard stare, has disassembled your engine.

You get red in the face. They make promises. You shout at the top of your lungs. They make several other excuses and beg for your patience and understanding. A week later, your engine is eventually put back although it's missing several key parts and ends up running just as badly, if not worse, as the one they'd replaced it with. Even so, it's back. It's ruined, yes, but you're so frustrated that you don't care anymore. Anything to get out of there, to drive/lurch your vehicle as far away as possible from the testing station and back to the comfort of your own home after the ordeal.

As a bonus you get a phone call from Dave, the testing station boss saying that Ernie made some modifications to allow your car to run on just about anything, petrol, diesel, melted margarine, fermented badger urine etc. and that, "It's a much greener vehicle now. Congratulations on passing your emissions test."

You slam the phone down muttering a colourful congratulations on Dave's contribution to the gene pool, and half agreeing that from now on it probably will run on anything because why not? You're already personally stretching the definition of 'run' not to mention taking your life in your hands whenever you dare to take it out on the road. More, your regular mechanic only confirms this as he points out that the engine's now on its last legs and whether it blows up today or tomorrow makes little to no difference because it's not a matter of if but when. Still, it's your motor. You love it, you still wash it, and keep it in your drive under a special tarp to keep the elements off, though now it won't even turn over.

Well meaning friends tell you to just let it go, that you'd be much happier driving a motorcycle, a scooter, inline skates, or just taking public. Your cousin Stuart, the one you never got on with, phones and mock sympathises with you for a few moments before encouraging you to buck up - to adapt and overcome. That you should, 'look at it as the glass half full because it will still run just as well as before as long as it's going down downhill.'

With the last of his obnoxious horse-laughter still echoing in your ears after you cut him off, you contemplate allowing it to 'go downhill' over Stuart, and Dave, and Ernie -god bless his little soul- or better yet - pulling up takes and moving to another country.

Wow I absolutely cannot stay with an analogy that long. Lost me at Ernie

[Iozeph.5617]

@"Chaith.8256" said:Wow I absolutely cannot stay with an analogy that long. Lost me at Ernie

At least you were able to quote the whole thing. High marks for effort there. I'd have posted it with a series of pictures for you instead but some people around here object to those too. /shrug.

Keep at it though! You'll eventually reach the end. I believe in you.

[Sugar Min.5834]

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:Impact Savant: Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180. Unfortunately it doesn't look likely we'll be able to get this trait to work with conditions for the next balance update, but we'll keep investigating other options.

Is ANet saying the loss of 300 vit stays even with the antitoxin rune nerf? Omg lol.

~ deleted ~

And, again, Scourges rejoice!

[Dawdler.8521]

@Mil.3562 said:

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:Impact Savant: Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180.

Unfortunately it doesn't look likely we'll be able to get this trait to work with conditions for the next balance update, but we'll keep investigating other options

.

Is ANet saying the loss of 300 vit stays even with the antitoxin rune nerf? Omg lol.Eh what? No, they're saying condi scrapper is still gutted because they dont know how to add something that the necro already have. The vitality loss will be 180 in the patch.

[Sugar Min.5834]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Mil.3562 said:

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:Impact Savant: Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180.

Unfortunately it doesn't look likely we'll be able to get this trait to work with conditions for the next balance update, but we'll keep investigating other options

.

Is ANet saying the loss of 300 vit stays even with the antitoxin rune nerf? Omg lol.Eh what? No, they're saying condi scrapper is still gutted because they dont know how to add something that the necro already have. The vitality loss will be 180 in the patch.

oh, ok my bad that I misinterpreted it. Deleted most of my post. But still, antitoxin Scrapper is.... no more.