How would you all feel if Anet was strategically holding back Releasing/Reveal the next Expansion

[Ashen.2907]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:However, it is

more likely

for dissatisfied people to complain than satisfied ones.True, but when the ratio of satisfied and dissatisfied players on forums and reddit change substantially - like it did this time - it generally means a shift in the whole community.

I'm not sure that I would agree with that assessment. You could have a larger number of negative voices that only chose to post when they were dissatisfied. That doesn't really correlate to a general shift in the entire community.

But this argument is all academic. :) Neither of us really has any empirical evidence to support either side.

During the history of MMos this argument don't really hold up. Been shown time and time again that when there is forum outcry like that there usually is a big problem behind it, and not just from hardcore players.

Look at Warhammer and its forums. They went far to try to censor the complaint against the game, but what if they had listened instead? The game may still be here today.

Same with Darkfall XYZ, may still be here or been great if they had listened to people with the negative opinion.

Vanguard, Wildstar, Rift, Tera, etc etcAnd now GW2. Nobody is immune to this. The aged old "The Forum negative critics are a minority and people that like the game don't come to the forum" narrative just don't hold weight after so many failures in the genre when we heard that same exact excuse used each and every time.

Do the forum outrages while WoW was still gaining, while League was at its highest point, while Lineage 2 was at its best, while Fortnight was growing, etc indicate that forum outrage represents growth and increased profitability for games...or is your confirmation bias showing?

[Knighthonor.4061]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:What upcoming competition does Anet have exactly?

Can someone elaborate please?

what does it have thats unique like gw2? a great combat system? a world v world medieval castle siege?please dont say a decent story with dragons... theres sooo many games that already offer that.

If you don't know what they are by now, you probably won't be interested anyway.

thats extremely vague...Some examples would be nice as I see nothing that compares to GW2.

Why wouldn't I be interested? I play this game don't I?

so please... list some examples that may propose some competition to Anet, I would very much like to see the trailers and proposed gameplay of these games and if they offer anything unique like GW2 does.

if these games you mentioned cant even hold a candle to GW2 combat system or offer anything unique like WvW then its not even a matter of competition. it'll be just another game like every other on the market.

please, list some so I may YouTube it. I'm literally in the market for a new game that's comparable to this one.

edit: the only game ive seen that comes close is Ashes of Creation but the combat system looks like it could use a major improvement.

You kind of proved my point

[Knighthonor.4061]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:However, it is

more likely

for dissatisfied people to complain than satisfied ones.True, but when the ratio of satisfied and dissatisfied players on forums and reddit change substantially - like it did this time - it generally means a shift in the whole community.

I'm not sure that I would agree with that assessment. You could have a larger number of negative voices that only chose to post when they were dissatisfied. That doesn't really correlate to a general shift in the entire community.

But this argument is all academic. :) Neither of us really has any empirical evidence to support either side.

During the history of MMos this argument don't really hold up. Been shown time and time again that when there is forum outcry like that there usually is a big problem behind it, and not just from hardcore players.

Look at Warhammer and its forums. They went far to try to censor the complaint against the game, but what if they had listened instead? The game may still be here today.

Same with Darkfall XYZ, may still be here or been great if they had listened to people with the negative opinion.

Vanguard, Wildstar, Rift, Tera, etc etcAnd now GW2. Nobody is immune to this. The aged old "The Forum negative critics are a minority and people that like the game don't come to the forum" narrative just don't hold weight after so many failures in the genre when we heard that same exact excuse used each and every time.

Do the forum outrages while WoW was still gaining, while League was at its highest point, while Lineage 2 was at its best, while Fortnight was growing, etc indicate that forum outrage represents growth and increased profitability for games...or is your confirmation bias showing?

Most of those games you mentioned are not even in this genre. They not MMOs. And as for WoW, they been bleeding for a while now as well and they been the MOST Successful of all Western MMOs. They even released Classic WoW after people complained on the forum for so long to get it. Has 4 million subs now FROM classic. So not sure what point you trying to make with that one.

[SkyShroud.2865]

It is not just a matter of expansion. It is about whether anet is making contents that make the game feeling good again.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:What upcoming competition does Anet have exactly?

Can someone elaborate please?

what does it have thats unique like gw2? a great combat system? a world v world medieval castle siege?please dont say a decent story with dragons... theres sooo many games that already offer that.

If you don't know what they are by now, you probably won't be interested anyway.

thats extremely vague...Some examples would be nice as I see nothing that compares to GW2.

Why wouldn't I be interested? I play this game don't I?

so please... list some examples that may propose some competition to Anet, I would very much like to see the trailers and proposed gameplay of these games and if they offer anything unique like GW2 does.

if these games you mentioned cant even hold a candle to GW2 combat system or offer anything unique like WvW then its not even a matter of competition. it'll be just another game like every other on the market.

please, list some so I may YouTube it. I'm literally in the market for a new game that's comparable to this one.

edit: the only game ive seen that comes close is Ashes of Creation but the combat system looks like it could use a major improvement.

You kind of proved my point

You don't have a point... You assumed what games I'm into with very little information or facts about myself. You incorrectly spoke on MY behalf, not yours.I asked for examples, you proved no point except that you can't give a specific example even if asked nicely.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Acheron.4731 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:What upcoming competition does Anet have exactly?

Can someone elaborate please?

what does it have thats unique like gw2? a great combat system? a world v world medieval castle siege?please dont say a decent story with dragons... theres sooo many games that already offer that.

If you don't know what they are by now, you probably won't be interested anyway.

thats extremely vague...Some examples would be nice as I see nothing that compares to GW2.

Why wouldn't I be interested? I play this game don't I?

so please... list some examples that may propose some competition to Anet, I would very much like to see the trailers and proposed gameplay of these games and if they offer anything unique like GW2 does.

if these games you mentioned cant even hold a candle to GW2 combat system or offer anything unique like WvW then its not even a matter of competition. it'll be just another game like every other on the market.

please, list some so I may YouTube it. I'm literally in the market for a new game that's comparable to this one.

edit: the only game ive seen that comes close is Ashes of Creation but the combat system looks like it could use a major improvement.

This is coming out again under a new publisher Aug 30th

Thanks for actually posting something specific unlike OP.That looks fun.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to hold off on expansions till they can sus out what these games have to offer, hopefully this game or AoC offers large scale warfare similar to GW2 WvW as Anet haven't really capitalized on thier own WvW mode yet. That could present some issues if GW2 no longer offers something unique on the market.

[Ashen.2907]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:However, it is

more likely

for dissatisfied people to complain than satisfied ones.True, but when the ratio of satisfied and dissatisfied players on forums and reddit change substantially - like it did this time - it generally means a shift in the whole community.

I'm not sure that I would agree with that assessment. You could have a larger number of negative voices that only chose to post when they were dissatisfied. That doesn't really correlate to a general shift in the entire community.

But this argument is all academic. :) Neither of us really has any empirical evidence to support either side.

During the history of MMos this argument don't really hold up. Been shown time and time again that when there is forum outcry like that there usually is a big problem behind it, and not just from hardcore players.

Look at Warhammer and its forums. They went far to try to censor the complaint against the game, but what if they had listened instead? The game may still be here today.

Same with Darkfall XYZ, may still be here or been great if they had listened to people with the negative opinion.

Vanguard, Wildstar, Rift, Tera, etc etcAnd now GW2. Nobody is immune to this. The aged old "The Forum negative critics are a minority and people that like the game don't come to the forum" narrative just don't hold weight after so many failures in the genre when we heard that same exact excuse used each and every time.

Do the forum outrages while WoW was still gaining, while League was at its highest point, while Lineage 2 was at its best, while Fortnight was growing, etc indicate that forum outrage represents growth and increased profitability for games...or is your confirmation bias showing?

Most of those games you mentioned are not even in this genre. They not MMOs. And as for WoW, they been bleeding for a while now as well and they been the MOST Successful of all Western MMOs. They even released Classic WoW after people complained on the forum for so long to get it. Has 4 million subs now FROM classic. So not sure what point you trying to make with that one.

The point I am making is that for every example of a game doing poorly while there is complaining on forums I can give one or more of games doing well while there is complaining.

[witcher.3197]

I don't care about expansions anymore. They are just living story with a price tag at this point..

[maddoctor.2738]

Food for thought:They now have FOUR contenet teams meaning the Saga will have at minimum 4 episodes.Once episode 1 is released team1 will either start working on episode5, s6, or go start working on the next expansion.The other teams will do the same. That way there won't be a content drought

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Food for thought:They now have FOUR contenet teams meaning the Saga will have at minimum 4 episodes.Once episode 1 is released team1 will either start working on episode5, s6, or go start working on the next expansion.The other teams will do the same. That way there won't be a content drought

Are we sure the 4th team is not for the festivals/bonus events between story episodes? They were mentioned as "exciting monthly content" after all.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Obtena.7952 said:Wouldn't have a problem with it at all. It makes zero sense to base my decision to log in today and play the game based on some speculation of what may or may not happen months from now.For most games you would be right, but MMORPGs are a longterm investment games. And you don't make longterm investments in something whose future doesn't look all that promising.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Food for thought:They now have FOUR contenet teams meaning the Saga will have at minimum 4 episodes.They already said that the fourth team is working on something else they didn't want to mention. Not LS episode.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:They already said that the fourth team is working on something else they didn't want to mention. Not LS episode.

Well then we got 3 teams working on the living world. That doesn't change my point, once a team is "done" they could reassign them to an expansion or the next Season. After all, they should be doing -something- once their episode is released.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:They already said that the fourth team is working on something else they didn't want to mention. Not LS episode.

That doesn't change my point, once a team is "done" they could reassign them to an expansion or the next Season.

Could they really assign them to an expansion though? To me it doesn't seem like a matter of Anet being willing to work on an expansion. It's a matter of Anet being able to.

To me, Anet looks like they are in "cutting costs" mode and have been for some time now. And it's not even the layoffs or NCsoft's statement that gave me the impression (even if it's strongly implied), but how the game "feels" of late. I mean, even this new release is practically a (pretty) Ascalon map with a bit of recolored brand. With half of the characters on the map voiced by....Braham. That's just an example and I know small things like these seem insignificant to some but sometimes truth is in the details.

I can only speculate as I'm neither game director nor shareholder. But the way I see it, Anet is clearly not allowed the funding they were used to for whatever reason. And it's been happening since before the layoffs (that could have been a choice to redirect funds to unnamed projects). Proper expansions cost and I just can't see one happening in the current situation.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

Im ok with it. Does it matter? Not really to me. Im not going to play more or less either way. The icebrood saga seems to be shaping up well judging by the current release, which is a big win in my eyes.

[kasoki.5180]

This is where we are now as community? Making conspiracy theories about expansions? Are we so desperate that now we believe they are making an expansion but are telling us opposite for marketing sake? At one point we will have to accept that no means no.They are not making one and we wont get it in any near future.

Also stop making stuff up about other games and other MMOs. Just because its not a game for you doesnt mean its not a competitor against GW2.Diminishing others doesnt make GW look better, it just makes the playerbase look dilusional.

[maddoctor.2738]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:They already said that the fourth team is working on something else they didn't want to mention. Not LS episode.

That doesn't change my point, once a team is "done" they could reassign them to an expansion or the next Season.

Could they really assign them to an expansion though? To me it doesn't seem like a matter of Anet being willing to work on an expansion. It's a matter of Anet being able to.

To me, Anet looks like they are in "cutting costs" mode and have been for some time now. And it's not even the layoffs or NCsoft's statement that gave me the impression (even if it's strongly implied), but how the game "feels" of late. I mean, even this new release is practically a (pretty) Ascalon map with a bit of recolored brand. With half of the characters on the map voiced by....Braham. That's just an example and I know small things like these seem insignificant to some but sometimes truth is in the details.

I can only speculate as I'm neither game director nor shareholder. But the way I see it, Anet is clearly not allowed the funding they were used to for whatever reason. And it's been happening since before the layoffs (that could have been a choice to redirect funds to unnamed projects). Proper expansions cost and I just can't see one happening in the current situation.

This makes no sense. They have 50% more employees now than they did have when Heart of Thorns (and probably Path of Fire) were released and you are saying that they aren't allowed funding? What are all those people doing then? Arenanet has a single product, Guild Wars 2, even after the layoffs they have way more people than they did have in the past, so it doesn't add up.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:They already said that the fourth team is working on something else they didn't want to mention. Not LS episode.

That doesn't change my point, once a team is "done" they could reassign them to an expansion or the next Season.

Could they really assign them to an expansion though? To me it doesn't seem like a matter of Anet being willing to work on an expansion. It's a matter of Anet being able to.

To me, Anet looks like they are in "cutting costs" mode and have been for some time now. And it's not even the layoffs or NCsoft's statement that gave me the impression (even if it's strongly implied), but how the game "feels" of late. I mean, even this new release is practically a (pretty) Ascalon map with a bit of recolored brand. With half of the characters on the map voiced by....Braham. That's just an example and I know small things like these seem insignificant to some but sometimes truth is in the details.

I can only speculate as I'm neither game director nor shareholder. But the way I see it, Anet is clearly not allowed the funding they were used to for whatever reason. And it's been happening since before the layoffs (that could have been a choice to redirect funds to unnamed projects). Proper expansions cost and I just can't see one happening in the current situation.

This makes no sense. They have 50% more employees now than they did have when Heart of Thorns (and probably Path of Fire) were released and you are saying that they aren't allowed funding? What are all those people doing then? Arenanet has a single product, Guild Wars 2, even after the layoffs they have way more people than they did have in the past, so it doesn't add up.

I can only judge from what I'm seeing in the game. If I was in Anet I could tell you what the employees are doing and why. I am not.

What I know for example is that LS2, which is often compared to this saga because of the expansive map thing, brought brand new visuals and sound into the game. Both Maguma desert maps and the mordrem were newly created assets. Newly created assets cost. From what I've seen in this prologue and the trailers, that's not the case with this saga.

And the "cutting costs" thing is not pure speculation. NCsoft clearly said increasing operating costs were a reason for the layoffs. Who's to say it was the only measure taken?

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

How would i feel? About the same way i feel about game i currently play. Read - I'm mostly playing something else, until GW2 reels me in with some new innovative content. And by that i mean xpac worthy additions with new ways to play my character (new elite specs, skills, weapons, w/e).

[Astralporing.1957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:They already said that the fourth team is working on something else they didn't want to mention. Not LS episode.

Well then we got 3 teams working on the living world. That doesn't change my point, once a team is "done" they could reassign them to an expansion or the next Season. After all, they should be doing -something- once their episode is released.Unless the 4th team is the size of the old expansion team (which is unlikely - that team was bigger than 3 old ls teams together, from what i remember), it won't matter. At best they might be able to do a tighter LS chapters release schedule to that (with four teams and old 9-months-per-chapter release schedule, they could do them every two months and few days, instead of every 3 months). The won't be able to do an expansion with this number of people, though. And before you bring up HoT, remember that they did not, in fact, have enough people then to do an expansion while at the same time making other content. For HoT they had to not only stop releasing LS - they also didn't have manpower for

festivals

. It's only after they added more devs that they started being able to do that (and that's why we've managed to get PoF without any content drought before it).Now, they are apparently again in the situation where they can do either an expac or LS, but

not

both at the same time.

[yann.1946]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:They already said that the fourth team is working on something else they didn't want to mention. Not LS episode.

That doesn't change my point, once a team is "done" they could reassign them to an expansion or the next Season.

Could they really assign them to an expansion though? To me it doesn't seem like a matter of Anet being willing to work on an expansion. It's a matter of Anet being able to.

To me, Anet looks like they are in "cutting costs" mode and have been for some time now. And it's not even the layoffs or NCsoft's statement that gave me the impression (even if it's strongly implied), but how the game "feels" of late. I mean, even this new release is practically a (pretty) Ascalon map with a bit of recolored brand. With half of the characters on the map voiced by....Braham. That's just an example and I know small things like these seem insignificant to some but sometimes truth is in the details.

I can only speculate as I'm neither game director nor shareholder. But the way I see it, Anet is clearly not allowed the funding they were used to for whatever reason. And it's been happening since before the layoffs (that could have been a choice to redirect funds to unnamed projects). Proper expansions cost and I just can't see one happening in the current situation.

This makes no sense. They have 50% more employees now than they did have when Heart of Thorns (and probably Path of Fire) were released and you are saying that they aren't allowed funding? What are all those people doing then? Arenanet has a single product, Guild Wars 2, even after the layoffs they have way more people than they did have in the past, so it doesn't add up.

I can only judge from what I'm seeing in the game. If I was in Anet I could tell you what the employees are doing and why. I am not.

What I know for example is that LS2, which is often compared to this saga because of the expansive map thing, brought brand new visuals and sound into the game. Both Maguma desert maps and the mordrem were newly created assets. Newly created assets cost. From what I've seen in this prologue and the trailers, that's not the case with this saga.

And the "cutting costs" thing is not pure speculation. NCsoft clearly said increasing operating costs were a reason for the layoffs. Who's to say it was the only measure taken?

Their are newly created assets in this map to. That they seem similar to other things doesn't mean that they weren't newly created.

Icebrood construct.The Soundstage boss, etc.

And don't forget that s2 was declared by the devs as an unhealthy worktime.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:And the "cutting costs" thing is not pure speculation. NCsoft clearly said increasing operating costs were a reason for the layoffs. Who's to say it was the only measure taken?

They did cut costs but keep in mind that the Arenanet team had reached 430+ employees at the time of the layoffs. That's more than double the number they had on release (200) and Heart of Thorns (220). After the layoffs (-143 people) the company still has more employees (293) than it did before the expansion (they expanded for the cancelled projects most probably). So they did "cut operating costs" but not to levels below Heart of Thorns, or release.

As for your S2 comments, you need to remember what was released back then.In the "prologue" of S2 there were very few new assets as most enemies were Inquest or core mobs. The only additions were the Dust Mites and maybe the Mordrem Vines. Not many assets, and a tiny area / tiny story, as the prologue took place only in Prospect Valley and the Tangled Root area of Brisban Wildlands. No Mordrem foes were added with the prologue.

[Acheron.4731]

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:How would i feel? About the same way i feel about game i currently play. Read - I'm mostly playing something else, until GW2 reels me in with some new innovative content. And by that i mean xpac worthy additions with new ways to play my character (new elite specs, skills, weapons, w/e).

I feel the same.Just adding living stories ad infinitum is no different than maintenance mode to me.Nothing exciting in the near or distant future.

[Astralporing.1957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:And the "cutting costs" thing is not pure speculation. NCsoft clearly said increasing operating costs were a reason for the layoffs. Who's to say it was the only measure taken?

They did cut costs but keep in mind that the Arenanet team had reached 430+ employees at the time of the layoffs. That's more than double the number they had on release (200) and Heart of Thorns (220). After the layoffs (-143 people) the company still has more employees (293) than it did before the expansion (they expanded for the cancelled projects most probably). So they did "cut operating costs" but not to levels below Heart of Thorns, or release.Again, remember, that the HoT/pre-HoT levels did not allow them to consurrently work on expansion and LS. When they started working on HoT for serious, every other release in game stopped - and they started doing LS again only after launch (which is why we've had that content drought just after HoT). Only when they expanded the team they started being able to work on PoF at no loss to other content.They did not expand for the cancelled projects (or not primarily for them) - they expanded for the sake of GW2. Yes, most of those people ended up working on side projects eventually (and got laid off), but that was only possible because Anet wasn't working on expac then anymore, and so they could move those devs to other, non-gw2 stuff.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:And the "cutting costs" thing is not pure speculation. NCsoft clearly said increasing operating costs were a reason for the layoffs. Who's to say it was the only measure taken?

As for your S2 comments, you need to remember what was released back then.In the "prologue" of S2 there were very few new assets as most enemies were Inquest or core mobs. The only additions were the Dust Mites and maybe the Mordrem Vines. Not many assets, and a tiny area / tiny story, as the prologue took place only in Prospect Valley and the Tangled Root area of Brisban Wildlands. No Mordrem foes were added with the prologue.

True, but the moment you entered the valley you knew it was part of a brand new biome for the game. You are right that it's still early though, time will tell.

@"yann.1946" said:

And don't forget that s2 was declared by the devs as an unhealthy worktime.

I didn't know that. I was under the impression they didn't do "crunch".

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:They did not expand for the cancelled projects (or not primarily for them) - they expanded for the sake of GW2. Yes, most of those people ended up working on side projects eventually (and got laid off), but that was only possible because Anet wasn't working on expac then anymore, and so they could move those devs to other, non-gw2 stuff.

This is wrong. The game was released with 200 employees in 2012. They expanded to 220 employees in 2016 (20 more) which is the time when MO told us they were working on an expansion at the same time as the living world (S3). They did not hire "all those people" to work on GW2, the team was greatly expanded AFTER Path of Fire was released. They got to 436 employees at the beginning of 2019, just before the layoffs and then they were downsized to 293, which is still a LOT more than they had during either release of Heart of Thorns.