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Future Potential WvW-centric Balance Changes - September 13th 2019


Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:fact their auto attack is beyond overpowered either.With 2000 range, aned furiously ignore that, somehow.

And again, it's just like all other projectiles in the game.Post a proof that all projectiles has 2000 range or projectiles travel bonus 500 range upon reaching its maximum range, can you ?

All arching projectiles in this game go further than the stated range. Ranger's longbow goes the furthest because it has the furthest baseline range too.

Point being that it isn't exclusive to ranger, but everyone words it as if this is some unique ranger bug.Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have
500 bonus
range and barely noticable, it noticable at all. They dont even track you at that range, meanwhile ranger LB does. Not even a single weapon has that absurd range(2000 rofl) and damage.I wouldnt even bat an eye if they hard cap every weapon at stated range.

"Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have
500 bonus
range"

Word.

I told you how it works, and that it works like other projectiles, and why it goes further. I don't give a flying F about how mad you are about it.

Every projectile does it, but NONE OF THEM ARE AT THE LEVEL OF LONGBOW 1. Most projectiles end around 1600 to 1700, Longbow does at 2000. That's just plain unfair and unintended. At least bring it in line.

AND NONE OTHER ARCHING PROJECTILES HAVE THE STATED RANGE OF THE LONGBOW EITHER. Most projectiles in this game are stated as 1200 at most, ranger longbow is 1500. If they're gonna "bring it in line", that's essentially nerfing one of the unique advantages that weapon has.So mad, wow. Unfair advantage doesnt mean unique advantage.FYI deadeye rifle is 1500 range, its projectiles doesnt go to ~2000 range.

Bullets don't arch in this game. Compare warrior rifle to the warrior bow.

The uniqueness of it is the baseline 1500 range, more than other arching projectile weapons. If you still don't understand that and how it affects its arching range and how limiting it to be the same range as other arching projectile is a flat out nerf to something that is supposed to be unique, I can't help you. In fact, I'm done with you. You're a waste of time.

And FYI, I don't care if they limit all weapons to the actual stated range. I'm explaining to you why the longbow act as it does.

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@Lazze.9870 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:fact their auto attack is beyond overpowered either.With 2000 range, aned furiously ignore that, somehow.

And again, it's just like all other projectiles in the game.Post a proof that all projectiles has 2000 range or projectiles travel bonus 500 range upon reaching its maximum range, can you ?

All arching projectiles in this game go further than the stated range. Ranger's longbow goes the furthest because it has the furthest baseline range too.

Point being that it isn't exclusive to ranger, but everyone words it as if this is some unique ranger bug.Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have
500 bonus
range and barely noticable, it noticable at all. They dont even track you at that range, meanwhile ranger LB does. Not even a single weapon has that absurd range(2000 rofl) and damage.I wouldnt even bat an eye if they hard cap every weapon at stated range.

"Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have
500 bonus
range"

Word.

I told you how it works, and that it works like other projectiles, and why it goes further. I don't give a flying F about how mad you are about it.

Every projectile does it, but NONE OF THEM ARE AT THE LEVEL OF LONGBOW 1. Most projectiles end around 1600 to 1700, Longbow does at 2000. That's just plain unfair and unintended. At least bring it in line.

AND NONE OTHER ARCHING PROJECTILES HAVE THE STATED RANGE OF THE LONGBOW EITHER. Most projectiles in this game are stated as 1200 at most, ranger longbow is 1500. If they're gonna "bring it in line", that's essentially nerfing one of the unique advantages that weapon has.So mad, wow. Unfair advantage doesnt mean unique advantage.FYI deadeye rifle is 1500 range, its projectiles doesnt go to ~2000 range.

Bullets don't arch in this game.

Compare warrior rifle to the warrior bow.Make all projectiles behave like bullets and disappear at intended range-> problem solved.I see you are an edit God there. Enjoying unfair advantage and spamming 1 for 4-6k damage from 2000 range is "intented uniquness" not unfair advantage, lmao.Biased ranger main isnt a waste of time /s
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@praqtos.9035 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:fact their auto attack is beyond overpowered either.With 2000 range, aned furiously ignore that, somehow.

And again, it's just like all other projectiles in the game.Post a proof that all projectiles has 2000 range or projectiles travel bonus 500 range upon reaching its maximum range, can you ?

All arching projectiles in this game go further than the stated range. Ranger's longbow goes the furthest because it has the furthest baseline range too.

Point being that it isn't exclusive to ranger, but everyone words it as if this is some unique ranger bug.Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have
500 bonus
range and barely noticable, it noticable at all. They dont even track you at that range, meanwhile ranger LB does. Not even a single weapon has that absurd range(2000 rofl) and damage.I wouldnt even bat an eye if they hard cap every weapon at stated range.

"Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have
500 bonus
range"

Word.

I told you how it works, and that it works like other projectiles, and why it goes further. I don't give a flying F about how mad you are about it.

Every projectile does it, but NONE OF THEM ARE AT THE LEVEL OF LONGBOW 1. Most projectiles end around 1600 to 1700, Longbow does at 2000. That's just plain unfair and unintended. At least bring it in line.

AND NONE OTHER ARCHING PROJECTILES HAVE THE STATED RANGE OF THE LONGBOW EITHER. Most projectiles in this game are stated as 1200 at most, ranger longbow is 1500. If they're gonna "bring it in line", that's essentially nerfing one of the unique advantages that weapon has.So mad, wow. Unfair advantage doesnt mean unique advantage.FYI deadeye rifle is 1500 range, its projectiles doesnt go to ~2000 range.

Bullets don't arch in this game.

Compare warrior rifle to the warrior bow.Make all projectiles behave like bullets and disappear at intended range-> problem solved.I see you are an edit God there. Enjoying unfair advantage and spamming 1 for 4-6k damage from 2000 range is "intented uniquness" not unfair advantage, lmao.Biased ranger main isnt a waste of time /s

I didn't say 2000 range is an intended uniqueness. Learn to read.

However, I did say that I don't care if they limit all skills to the actually stated range. You can throw "biased" at me all you want, but it doesn't make any sense to do so.

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So basically, Scourge will now generally never want to place Shades and become a Melee brawler as placing one basically means becoming completely defenseless for the duration of the Shade (which it seems you can not dispell at will to regain the AoE around you) and both minors of the Espec become useless, or place a Shade, get the minors and range, and then get completely rolled over in melee unless you stand in the Shade anyway?

Tbh, this is a very confusing change and the wording of it leaves a lot open.Is it still 3 Shades without Sand Savant after this, or always one? If it's still 3, do you lose the AoE around you with just placing one but still having 2 in the bank, as that will just lead to awkward gameplay of placing one at range and trying to place one on yourself?Is Sand Savant just a higher target cap, or still an AoE increase?

This seems like a mess tbh.

If you want to redesign Shades/Scourge, redesign it properly. New minors, new GM's, one Shade, either on you or placed somewhere else.Rework Serpent Siphon, a skill nobody ever used anywhere, completely do be a proper defensive skill, like an few second Invuln like almost everything else has.That and Scourge (through Core Necro, not Shades) needs a lot more DPS for PvE as well, which sure, isn't the target of this patch, but being at 50% of what a Mirage does is laughable (and nerf Mirage).For WvW, Scourge damage isn't the issue either, it's the amount of targets.If you want to keep a Trait like Sand Savant, make it purely a support Trait, aka completely replace the damage on Shades for heals and the conditions for boons.

It's about time Scourge isn't this patchwork mess in all gamemodes anymore, either massively over or underperforming depending on the amount of targets it can hit, as well as having to be carried by specific supports. This just seems like more patchwork.

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That's the problem with Gw2's class system. Unlike, other mmorpgs, there are trinity system. Majority of the people just wants to dps and share buffs.. When others wanted a specific class such as healer or tank class, it's frowned upon. The light class, is the one doing the tanking lol!. Mage class = melee class, lol!!. That is what's wrong with gw2 class system. I think traits should be changed, add 3 masteries like in league of legends (Damage, Defense, Utilities/Support).

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Scourge: Shade abilities only affect the area around you while you do not have a shade active in the world. This creates a choice of whether to be the focal point for your shade abilities by not summoning a shade or to place a shade at a distance and focus on your shade's positioning relying on distance as your safety. It also offers more distinct styles of gameplay where you may want to close with enemies and avoid having to place shades while being exposed in melee or placing a shade farther away to gain ranged offensive options at the risk of not having shade defensive benefits at your location (unless you place another shade beside you). To address the loss of some of the target cap, the number of targets affected by shade abilities will be increased from 3 to 5.

As a Scourge PvE main (2,492 hours), I've thought about this change a lot and it would really make the Scourge a lot less fun to play. There's no way to remove shades, so if a boss is moving a lot, you end up unable to keep up your DPS or healing. Additionally, as a heal scourge, if I need to apply barrier to one player at range, I lose 100% of my group buffing and barrier generation, so I'm incentivized to just ignore healing anyone at range and just blindly drop the shade on the group. DPS Scourge would be made nigh irrelevant with this change since we need 2 shades out at all times to keep up Sand Sage and if the boss / enemies move, our dps is crippled. For a class already on the outskirts of viability, it'd be a death blow.

tl;dr - This change is WAY too disruptive to PvE Scourge to be considered and it results in less skill, not more. Especially since your need to re-place shades is not under your control whatsoever and you can't choose not to place them since it's a huge DPS loss. This kills the entire viability of PvE Scourge. Please reconsider.

Edit: Would be a lot better if Sand Savant made the shade only hit allies. Or reduce the damage by 50-99%. Perhaps with some healing power / concentration / healing power bonus. Basically, make it so you can only take Sand Savant if you're a heal / support Scourge.

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@Dreddo.9865 said:The reason why scourge had its shades shared to himself and a targeted area is that it has maybe the lowest self sustain capability among all professions. I am starting to believe people behind those changes don't have a clue of how the class operates - as of course many of those commenting that the scourge is actually becoming stronger (lol).

That's why scourge needs to decide if they want to use the shade for offensive range dmg or defensive self sustain.I think it's fine with this issue of making a decision.

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Placing a shade anywhere will delete the oldest shade so LF consumption will matter. There is also the change to barrier scaling. The intent of the developers appears to be to separate Scourge offense and defense in WvW. If it does not work as they intend, expect further nerfing.

Arenanet seems intent on forcing two Scourge builds; one for zerg offense and one for defense. The offensive Scourge should be glassier and susceptible to pressure and bursts. The defensive Scourge will be a barrier-slave. Zergs may need more Scourge's built just for barriers.

The dev's seem to want the corruption AoE but also want to make Scourge and the zerg to pay for it in opportunity cost. Ranged offense players will require active defense; e.g., blocking, healing/barrier, condi-cleanse, bursts on opponents pushing into the zerg core, etc, to pick off the more vulnerable offense Scourges.

Think of how core zerg-Necro works. Most core Necro zerg builds have terrible defense. I think Arenanet is going for that type of offensive Scourge while also allowing for a barrier-slave staff-Scourge. Remember that a Scourge without LF is both useless and highly vulnerable so a barrier-slave would be forced to generate LF all the time.

However, an offensive Scourge would have small barriers and have to drop a shade on itself, erasing the offensive shade, or spend a lot of LF for defense.

Scourge in the other game modes will probably suffer until it is re-tuned but I suspect that is in progress.

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@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@X T D.6458 said:Boon spam is out of control in WvW and you keep nerfing the only class that can counter it....just why....

They are also nerfing Scrapper through Antitoxin runes so it wont be able to generate as many Boons from cleansing Condis

Well indirectly, but it will still give boons on cleanses to the person with the runes rather than distributing them to allies. Its a good change dont get me wrong, but its not enough in my opinion. Firebrands are stuck in support roles because they are putting out way too many boons. I understand as well as anyone the importance of boon sharing in WvW, and I still remember the frustration and fallout over the stability nerf. The problem is the current situation is just out of control and it carries bad players and groups that rely on boons rather than actually using proper strategy. Necromancer is really the only class that has been a staple in the WvW meta that can counter boon spam and it is constantly being nerfed, not to mention its already lackluster and nonexistant defensive skills and mobility.

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@"Novaura.1079" said:

Please have them pulse around you as you move similar to the Function Gyros as they are now a "well". This would help diversify some of the support monopoly that firebrand has especially if you give some of them stability / barrier / resistance.

Guardian Monopoly* Cuz he's the meta in All game modes| As support, | As condi-power support | As Power DPS | As Condi DPS | In all cases, super easy to use.

But Anet still nerfing Weaker classes in PvE, Welp.

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@"Jasher.6580" said:After talking to some top players in sPvP it seems as if there with be zero Necro's in the meta if these changes go live. Helio said they would be "garbage" if these changes go through. What are your thoughts? Irenio Calmon Huang?

I'm no top PvP'er, but imo you don't have to be to see that Scourge is already the absolute primary target for focus with one of the very few things that keeps people away at times being the Shroud around the Scourge/the potential of the Scourge having lot's of LF and being able to punish you heavily for engaging in melee.

After these changes, the Scourge is either severely crippled in fights to a point of near uselessness at range by not utilizing the Shade ranged as it can't realistically melee brawl and has to kite, or it places the Shade and signals to everybody that it is a completely free kill, even more so than currently.

I don't see many ways in how either almost complete lack of ranged pressure or complete lack of the ability to disincentivize focus via melee counter pressure could be viable in plat and beyond, considering all the weaknesses that somewhat balanced Scourge's teamfight prowess, such as terrible mobility and lack of active defenses is still very much so true.

If a Scourge ever places a Shade, there is no reason or thought anymore to not just go ham into it.That said, I do actually agree with the Shades being reworked to function that way and it seems like much healthier gameplay. The issue is just that needs to come in tandem with a major rework in general, bringing things like mobility and active defenses to break focus to Necro to compensate.And that's not going to happen.

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Imagine thinking the shade mechanic was faulty when the issue with scourges coverage was always sand savant. Killing scourge in pvp, giving it the chrono treatment, making it not only bad but clunky all because you want less coverage XD. How about next time you rework sand savant which has always been the issue in wvw not dismantle the entire class mechanic. I am honestly at a loss for words at how incompetent the balance team is. It is so insanely obvious none of them play any of the classes they design. Scourge in pvp is already a prime target for almost every class and in ranked one of the easiest kills and the one thing that peeled targets off it was the ability to use shade skills around you to peel them off. Not only that but they increased shade duration from 10s to 15s so now using a shade is even more punishing because thats 15s where your dmg is stationary and you cant peel for yourself. Any half decent player will instantly jump on the scourge and delete them the moment they see a shade placed anywhere leaving the scourge with 2 options to afk on your shade and die because the class relies on kiting to live OR run away and die to classes faster than u(literally every class in pvp). So now its insanely clunky and gimped on top of it being already the easiest kill in pvp.

As for wvw what they intend is not even going to happen because they decided to increase the target cap of sand savant to 10(lmfao) so any commander will call for shade bomb, scourges will hit even more people and lowering skill cap because only good scourges knew how to hit the 10 target cap with themselves+shade for optimal dps. Good groups will then wait out the 15s before they push and have a 10 target 300 radius melee bomb with multiple scourges XD.

Pve gets hit the least because most raids and encounters are stationary and if you dont spam your shades you'll always have one when you need it but the clunkyness will be there and it wont feel good to play.

Knowing anet they will realize how much they messed up by dismantling a perfectly functional mechanic and probably buff scourge somewhere else to then compete again(in 3months for next balance patch) but it will still feel crap to play. Or they can listen to the community, keep the mechanic intact, nerf sand savant by either reducing its radius, or even removing the radius increase altogether and give it added barrier or healing so it can be more in line with the other traits for wvw.

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I hope Anet will read those posts. Many good pvp players are in here, explaining why scourge should not become this treatment. This should convince them to overthink the rework and instead focus on the specific trait sand savant.

Anets team probably does not play pvp with scourge, but anyone who plays it knows how easy scourge is to kill, even with the defenses it has right now. And this is not only the case for ranks p2 and up, this is also the case for lower ranks. So it is not just a minority being able to kill it quickly.

It is necessary that they cancel the rework in order to protect scourge from being deleted from pvp.And this would result in a huge loss for match quality overall, not only because I am a scourge main, but also because in this boon-heavy meta, every scourge stripping boons from the enemy team really helps in order to play against firebrands, holos, boonbeasts etc.

This possible rework is so bad because it even makes the choices of profession smaller, which is not a good fact, considering that the pvp population is as low as it never has been before!

I really appreciate this thread, because it means that we have a platform to express our thoughts. Let's hope this is not just a facade and there are actual people behind taking our complaints and doubts seriously. I don't write just for the sake of complaining, I am genuinely concerned about the results of the scourge rework for match quality, general pvp playstyles and of course because I love pvp (have been playing it actively for years) and I don't want it to get even worse.

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Im just gonna repeat myself from other topic in rev section about said "road" inspiring reinforcement;

Potential change - make it work like underwater version, remove cd, add stunbreak. End result great skill.

Why play around so static and terrible? I mean wow.. the road will be longer.. and still narrow as it always been, still being forced to stay in it for a stability. It doesnt and will never work. You can make it built up even 30000 range, its not gonna to change anything

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:maybe make f1 always one shade, you press it again and it disables the shade. once you place it it starts to go on cd. remove the sand savant increased shade cd as it makes zero sense to keep.

It would be more flexible to increase the LF cost of F1. That way, in addition to deleting a greater (offensive) shade to create a defensive shade with Sand Savant, the LF cost will render the Scourge useless and vulnerable afterward.

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@"RisenHowl.2419" said:What I love about this is they're trying to nerf scourge in wvw, but it's actually a big buff. While deleting scourge from pve and pvp... where it's already bad

The concept is sound but it's implementation... I am not sure of; guessing there will be many months of patches to properly nerf Scourge in WvW and buff it outside of that.

Arenanet has a very long history of severe balance issues with Necro because of its AoE condi pressure, "second health bar," and profession design rules, a.k.a. artistic opinion. Without addressing the core problems, it will continue bouncing between OP and trash.

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@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:This post isn't a request for more feedback, but a heads-up that we're going to be getting the changes tested and vetted internally while we get stuff ready.

so the story so far we have a 2 weeks long discussion about changes that have minor effect on WvW current meta and then leave the single most important change that may affect the WvW meta to be dropped at the last second and with no window for feedback . GREATso now our only chance that their testing team reach the "obvious" conclusion that this change is horrible ( not only to WvW but PvP & PvE ) and cancel it .or at least 3 months of scourge hitting more target in WvW and completely deleted in PvP & PvE .chances are slim but finger crossed that Anet listen to this feedback .

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