Latest Scourge upcoming changes (finalized) - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Latest Scourge upcoming changes (finalized)

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  • In my opinion the changes are designed to force specialization in tactics and builds.
    Currently you can play scourge as condi, power, or cele gear and in a zerg it really doesnt matter as your effectiveness is the same. Your there to occupy space with shades, wells, and marks and currupt bomb the enemy

    After the changes a Build that will drop its shades on an enemy group will need to be different than a build that is going to support around the scourge without shades.
    There will now be a premium on roles as opposed to one build to rule them all regardless of gear.

  • DragonFury.6243DragonFury.6243 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2019

    WORST change ever
    this fix nothing in WvW people complain about scourge hit 10 (range & melee ) target now it hit 10 target ( range or melee )
    while destroying support & dps scourge in PvE
    scourge was the shitiest dps class in PvE now it will become shity and clunck and useless on moving target ( which is most of the fight scourge is viable at )
    do arena-net think nobody play scourge in PvE ????????

  • Why only increase the duration of shades in PvP and WvW? The same duration in all modes wouldn't brake the PvE.

  • @Crystal Black.8190 said:
    Why only increase the duration of shades in PvP and WvW? The same duration in all modes wouldn't brake the PvE.

    Because PvE already has 15 second duration shades. Shade duration was nerfed in PvP/WvW, and this is reverting it.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    Seems bad for spvp
    This means once scourge puts out a shade, it basically has no proper defense and can be hunted down easier?

  • @Maven.1690 said:
    In my opinion the changes are designed to force specialization in tactics and builds.
    Currently you can play scourge as condi, power, or cele gear and in a zerg it really doesnt matter as your effectiveness is the same. You're there to occupy space with shades, wells, and marks and corrupt bomb the enemy

    After the changes a Build that will drop its shades on an enemy group will need to be different than a build that is going to support around the scourge without shades.
    There will now be a premium on roles as opposed to one build to rule them all regardless of gear.

    Does it actually change tactics though? It just encourages more pirateshipping.

    Current barrier (and condi cleanse) application is around the scourge as well, but with this change you just apply the barrier before you put the shades. The only way to change the way scourge is played is to lower base barrier levels and increase healing power contribution to barrier level. It seems they did address this part (barriers), but the carpet bombing of everything up to 10 targets in 900 range with the sand savant trait seems poorly thought out. Because each scourge is hitting more targets at range, you can spec into healing power and still have the same total damage output (at range) so long as your damage is at least 50% of what it was.

    As far as barrier goes, cele or marshal's has higher barrier amounts but when people are running multiple scourges the difference isn't as noticeable due to the barrier cap of 50% health. Condi damage does have an effect : it increases the damage of corrupted boons (burning, bleeding, poison, etc) and if you're running scepter or staff it has a direct impact on your outgoing conditions' damage as well.

    This helps nothing with regard to small scale (roaming) or PvP type scenarios where hitting 10 targets is not a given , boons aren't as plentiful, and barriers aren't stacked en masse.

  • Maven.1690Maven.1690 Member ✭✭
    edited September 23, 2019

    @Infusion.7149 said:

    @Maven.1690 said:
    In my opinion the changes are designed to force specialization in tactics and builds.
    Currently you can play scourge as condi, power, or cele gear and in a zerg it really doesnt matter as your effectiveness is the same. You're there to occupy space with shades, wells, and marks and corrupt bomb the enemy

    After the changes a Build that will drop its shades on an enemy group will need to be different than a build that is going to support around the scourge without shades.
    There will now be a premium on roles as opposed to one build to rule them all regardless of gear.

    Does it actually change tactics though? It just encourages more pirateshipping.

    Current barrier (and condi cleanse) application is around the scourge as well, but with this change you just apply the barrier before you put the shades. The only way to change the way scourge is played is to lower base barrier levels and increase healing power contribution to barrier level. It seems they did address this part (barriers), but the carpet bombing of everything up to 10 targets in 900 range with the sand savant trait seems poorly thought out. Because each scourge is hitting more targets at range, you can spec into healing power and still have the same total damage output (at range) so long as your damage is at least 50% of what it was.

    As far as barrier goes, cele or marshal's has higher barrier amounts but when people are running multiple scourges the difference isn't as noticeable due to the barrier cap of 50% health. Condi damage does have an effect : it increases the damage of corrupted boons (burning, bleeding, poison, etc) and if you're running scepter or staff it has a direct impact on your outgoing conditions' damage as well.

    This helps nothing with regard to small scale (roaming) or PvP type scenarios where hitting 10 targets is not a given , boons aren't as plentiful, and barriers aren't stacked en masse.

    I think it does change it....as yes you can cast the sand cascade and run in now, but that barrier only lasts a few seconds....once you place that shade though you are left defenseless for 15 seconds as all the f skills now happen at the shade, yes you can cast it near yourself for support but now you have taken away a third of your dps. So now it will be more of a balancing act in longer sustained battles of when and wear you can use your shades instead of everyone just flooding the field as they do now.
    Not to mention if you spec for DPS your actual barrier size will be pitifully useless

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    The thing is that warrior is designed around the idea that it play with "power". Increasing it's own power and it's allies power. The whole design of this profession revolve around this idea since launch. This is something that led ANet to reduce the warrior overall coefficient in the early days of the game because it made them the absolute king of PvE (Before the elementalist era). The issue is that it made the warrior an absolute trash in PvP, which led to balance in "numbers" that slowly put the warrior closer to it's release strength. Which is why despite their PvE support they deal an astounding level of damage now. The very existence of their support make them impossible to really balance in the game.

    The necromancer is in a different position. The necromancer is designed to make use of conditions, changing boons into conditions and conditions into boons, gathering conditions on himself and sending them on it's foes. Similarly to the warrior, it make the necromancer extremly difficult to balance for all gamemode throught numbers. However in case of the necromancer it's because PvE isn't designed to make use of the necromancer's design.

    The warrior's tools make him very strong in PvE and below average in PvP while the necromancer's tools make him strong in PvP and below average in PvE. Since ANet try it's best to address PvP in priority and a lot of players think that it's how it should be, the current situation is logical. The thing is that the necromancer need PvE to change for him to become balanced. The warrior on another hand is an impossible equation, it just cannot be "balanced" unless you remove from him the unique tools that give extra power which would go against it's design.

    Except Warrior is both insanely strong and meta in PvP (Spb) and PvE (BS-, Core, Berserker), while Necromancer is irrelevant in PvE (aside from condi Scourge with Epi on SH, and some other niche uses of hScourge for training groups) and just alright in PvP as Scourge unless getting carried by a FB negating all it's weaknesses.

    So not only does Warrior add the most group DPS out of all professions to PvE, it's also the ultimate sidenoder in PvP.
    The comparison between the two falls a bit short there.

    ArenaNet also has shown to be unwilling over the last 7 years to change the design of all of PvE just to cater to Necro in order to make it viable, so maybe it's about time to just redesign Necro?
    As much as these proposed changes make sense in a vacuum, Necromancer doesn't work without getting carried by it's elite specialisations, and without a extensive core rework will just end up weaker in all the places it's already struggling to even be just absolute bottom tier viable as it is now.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2019

    @Maven.1690 said:

    @Infusion.7149 said:

    Does it actually change tactics though? It just encourages more pirateshipping.

    Current barrier (and condi cleanse) application is around the scourge as well, but with this change you just apply the barrier before you put the shades. The only way to change the way scourge is played is to lower base barrier levels and increase healing power contribution to barrier level. It seems they did address this part (barriers), but the carpet bombing of everything up to 10 targets in 900 range with the sand savant trait seems poorly thought out. Because each scourge is hitting more targets at range, you can spec into healing power and still have the same total damage output (at range) so long as your damage is at least 50% of what it was.

    As far as barrier goes, cele or marshal's has higher barrier amounts but when people are running multiple scourges the difference isn't as noticeable due to the barrier cap of 50% health. Condi damage does have an effect : it increases the damage of corrupted boons (burning, bleeding, poison, etc) and if you're running scepter or staff it has a direct impact on your outgoing conditions' damage as well.

    This helps nothing with regard to small scale (roaming) or PvP type scenarios where hitting 10 targets is not a given , boons aren't as plentiful, and barriers aren't stacked en masse.

    I think it does change it....as yes you can cast the sand cascade and run in now, but that barrier only lasts a few seconds....once you place that shade though you are left defenseless for 15 seconds as all the f skills now happen at the shade, yes you can cast it near yourself for support but now you have taken away a third of your dps. So now it will be more of a balancing act in longer sustained battles of when and wear you can use your shades instead of everyone just flooding the field as they do now.
    Not to mention if you spec for DPS your actual barrier size will be pitifully useless

    Unless I'm mistaken , the new barrier affects 10 targets. You need half the scourges ; barrier is capped at 50% HP anyway. You can have your support scourges save the additional barriers for the melee range or cast shades closer to your group. Sand Flare's base barrier is only getting cut by 25%. (Sand Flare doesn't mention anything about shades currently.)

    It also doesn't change the Sand Swell skill for miniature portal bombs.

  • It sounds like this change to the Scourge Shade mechanic will nerf PvP and PvE builds hard, and do nothing to address WvW large scale battles. what the kitten ??

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Flumek.9043 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Flumek.9043 said:
    This is ULTRA CRINGE LEVEL of clunky.

    Even for ANet, and even for necro standards.

    I think the best way for PVP is TO NEVER place a shade untill you already win a fight and are clearing downed bodies. Pathetic bad design.

    it just means if you want to cover the point and yourself you now have to place 2 shades one on the point and one on yourself or simply move yourself to your placed shade. its different it not exactly game breaking but it is forcing you to use more resources or not and just be the shade yourself.

    Perhaps though this is part of their overall plans with what they have cooked up for death magic.

    I understand what it means.

    And you use words like "JUST" pretty casually.

    How else am i suppose to use it?

    Just drop a nuke.

    Sounds like you understand it pretty well i mean considering this is what scourge was released kitten originally

    Just nerf it to oblivion. Just make it even stronger in WWW where its main problem, while making it even glassier and clunkier in PVP where its almost unplayable.

    Thats going a bit over the top dont you think then again what are they suppose to do not have it be viable in any place?

    And then you still have trust in Anet, in necro, and in DeathMagic getting reworked for 3rd time ?

    Depending on what they do i would consider this the first rework
    I dont count that small change they did to like 2 traits 2 years ago or something thats not a rework thats an update. A rework would consist of at least 60-80% of the traits in the entire line getting some sort of change, get removed or moved to other lines that make more sense, or receiving Quality of life changes that make them useful in the current game time frame. If you can show me 2 previous attempts where this is happened feel free just prove me wrong.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @OutOfOrder.3719 said:
    It sounds like this change to the Scourge Shade mechanic will nerf PvP and PvE builds hard, and do nothing to address WvW large scale battles. what the kitten ??

    It wont really be a nerf in pve at all it will just require the player to pay slightly more attention to deal damage specifically for end game content.
    In pvp it is a nerf because scourge now is an easier target if it summon a shade.
    in wvw well... better get your anti tox runes.

    LOL

    But that said i mean if they make scourge subpar in every mode what is it suppose to do.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @OutOfOrder.3719 said:
    It sounds like this change to the Scourge Shade mechanic will nerf PvP and PvE builds hard, and do nothing to address WvW large scale battles. what the kitten ??

    It wont really be a nerf in pve at all it will just require the player to pay slightly more attention to deal damage specifically for end game content.
    In pvp it is a nerf because scourge now is an easier target if it summon a shade.
    in wvw well... better get your anti tox runes.

    LOL

    But that said i mean if they make scourge subpar in every mode what is it suppose to do.

    Think about how this affects dpsing moving targets....

  • OutOfOrder.3719OutOfOrder.3719 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2019

    How can ANET slip in this change in shade mechanic for Scourge and hope that no one would notice?

    Although I don’t think dps curse oriented builds won’t be effected that much, the blood support builds will be effected in PvP.

    Now I can see no damage happening when a scourge has already cast manifest shade, but taking barrier away and not casting it on a Necro when using F5 will nerf Scourge into oblivion.

    We really need more details on whether these changes are only for WvW and involve only “Sand Savant”, or the change to the Shade Mechanic in Scourge is also for PvP and PvE.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2019

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @OutOfOrder.3719 said:
    It sounds like this change to the Scourge Shade mechanic will nerf PvP and PvE builds hard, and do nothing to address WvW large scale battles. what the kitten ??

    It wont really be a nerf in pve at all it will just require the player to pay slightly more attention to deal damage specifically for end game content.
    In pvp it is a nerf because scourge now is an easier target if it summon a shade.
    in wvw well... better get your anti tox runes.

    LOL

    But that said i mean if they make scourge subpar in every mode what is it suppose to do.

    Think about how this affects dpsing moving targets....

    Scourge was not suppose to be a dps that might be part of the problem.

    That said if you want to dps a moving target then dont summon a shade and move next to said target then use shade skills like every other form of necro... but you dont have a true shroud or hard defensive tools....

    hmmmm problem seems to go back to core necro woops...

  • OutOfOrder.3719OutOfOrder.3719 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2019

    And if dps is the problem, then the flat damage should be minimized from manifest shade.

    But removing the barrier application from shades or only around the necro when no shade is up: is too harsh of a nerf that will remove the small amount of sustain that Necro needs to not die instantly in PvP.

    Necro is already considered a free kill at platinium 1 or higher games when played without support. Now it will be even harder to play Scourge in solo que and Blood Scourge will probably be eliminated from the meta.

    And the problem is that Scourge in WvW will still be a powerhouse, and still not be addressed. This was supposed to be improve WvW, not destoru Scourge in PvP and nerfed in PvE. This just shows a lack of understanding from the balance team to acknowledge the real problem of Scourge in WvW, which is Sand Savant taking up half the screen !

    And the balance team just increased the amount of targets from 5 to 10 that Sand Savant hits now ! Why ?

  • @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

  • @Waldrun.8493 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

    I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
    I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Waldrun.8493 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

    I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
    I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

    It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k. And it's a non moving Target. In real raid situations, it might get much worse.
    But if you are trying to push it in dps direction, there has to be a lot of work done.
    Cause personal dps of scourge is almost garbage right now, and scourge is only taken for it's utility, which is epidemic right now.
    To kill some adds...

  • @Nimon.7840 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Waldrun.8493 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

    I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
    I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

    It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.

    How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Waldrun.8493 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

    I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
    I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

    It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.

    How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

    More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Waldrun.8493 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

    I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
    I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

    It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.

    How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

    More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic

    But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?
    Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???

  • @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Waldrun.8493 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

    I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
    I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

    It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.

    How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

    More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic

    But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?
    Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???

    Hmmm, you're obviously never gonna give up curses, but Soul Reaping ... We'll have to test how that pans out: I guess the new Death Magic is still not gonna outperform Dhuumfire though.
    It is a buff for core Necro though, but core DPS was SOOOOOOOOOO far behind of Reaper and Scourge, I doubt if these changes will make core more competitive (DPS-wise)

    So, to conclude, I'm afraid these are all straight up nerfs again for Necro if we look at it from a PvE endgame perspective. And there I thought we couldn't sink any deeper (being the bottom of the barrel, for a long time already) ...

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Waldrun.8493 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

    I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
    I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

    It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.

    How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

    More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic

    But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?
    Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???

    You would be surprised how little Soul Reaping adds for Scourge, but just the extra Toughness you get from DM makes it pretty unplayable in endgame group content for tanking reasons. Don't think any tank is want to go that high just so someone can play a subpar DPS like Necro.

    Only use of Scourge (or Necro in general), with or without DM, in all of PvE from what I see will be Soulless Horror, where you can tank with Trailblazer and maybe now taking DM while being the Epi bot.
    Aside from that, just don't even bother playing Necro. It was already so far behind everything else and now it's even worse.

    For PvP, were I mained Necro for a long time, I already quit Scourge months before this patch for things like Holo, because it simply can't keep up outside of maybe organised AT's with a dedicated good FB support. I rather get the free kill that is Necro than be one.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Asum.4960 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Waldrun.8493 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

    I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
    I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

    It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.

    How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

    More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic

    But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?
    Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???

    You would be surprised how little Soul Reaping adds for Scourge, but just the extra Toughness you get from DM makes it pretty unplayable in endgame group content for tanking reasons. Don't think any tank is want to go that high just so someone can play a subpar DPS like Necro.

    Only use of Scourge (or Necro in general), with or without DM, in all of PvE from what I see will be Soulless Horror, where you can tank with Trailblazer and maybe now taking DM while being the Epi bot.
    Aside from that, just don't even bother playing Necro. It was already so far behind everything else and now it's even worse.

    Hmmm, I was actually thinking about this, and this is theorycrafting to the max of course, but might there be a new role in store for the Necro (mostly Scourge probably)? A full DPS tank!? You can go full viper (or berserker if you want) and still have the most toughness. That way the rest could go base toughness entirely.
    No Support tanks needed anymore, we could now raid with DPS tanks! And what better job for the Necro to fulfil that role than anyone else, for their DPS was already poor BUT viable (as everyone always says), and with no real loss to their "viable" DPS, they can now fulfil an important role.
    Please react (of course I'm overlooking something really obvious here :), orso)

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Waldrun.8493 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

    I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
    I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

    It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.

    How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

    More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic

    But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?
    Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???

    You would be surprised how little Soul Reaping adds for Scourge, but just the extra Toughness you get from DM makes it pretty unplayable in endgame group content for tanking reasons. Don't think any tank is want to go that high just so someone can play a subpar DPS like Necro.

    Only use of Scourge (or Necro in general), with or without DM, in all of PvE from what I see will be Soulless Horror, where you can tank with Trailblazer and maybe now taking DM while being the Epi bot.
    Aside from that, just don't even bother playing Necro. It was already so far behind everything else and now it's even worse.

    Hmmm, I was actually thinking about this, and this is theorycrafting to the max of course, but might there be a new role in store for the Necro (mostly Scourge probably)? A full DPS tank!? You can go full viper (or berserker if you want) and still have the most toughness. That way the rest could go base toughness entirely.
    No Support tanks needed anymore, we could now raid with DPS tanks! And what better job for the Necro to fulfil that role than anyone else, for their DPS was already poor BUT viable (as everyone always says), and with no real loss to their "viable" DPS, they can now fulfil an important role.
    Please react (of course I'm overlooking something really obvious here :), orso)

    Chrono already does the tanking as hybrid DPS though, except it also brings group buffs and buff extension to the table, as well as being able to block a wide variety of mechanics, which at times is really important, see Deimos etc.

    Sure Necro will be able to and was already able to tank some bosses, as could pretty much any other class, but there just isn't really a point all things considered.
    It may be able to do a bit more DPS than a Chrono tank, but then what? You'll still need that support, so might as well let the tank do it and get a proper DPS.

    It's admirable to want to find a place for Necro in PvE, but there just isn't really one besides of some very niche cases, and even those are at times questionable.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Waldrun.8493 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

    I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
    I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

    It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.

    How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

    More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic

    But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?
    Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???

    You would be surprised how little Soul Reaping adds for Scourge, but just the extra Toughness you get from DM makes it pretty unplayable in endgame group content for tanking reasons. Don't think any tank is want to go that high just so someone can play a subpar DPS like Necro.

    As little as it add i dont think DM immidately outweighs it based on these changes sure some people are already pointing out a few super niche situations where it "might" work out for the better but if its gonna be in small cases like that there is no point im looking at the general overall and i dont see it as better for the reasons you said as well as others.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Waldrun.8493 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

    I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
    I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

    It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.

    How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

    More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic

    But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?
    Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???

    You would be surprised how little Soul Reaping adds for Scourge, but just the extra Toughness you get from DM makes it pretty unplayable in endgame group content for tanking reasons. Don't think any tank is want to go that high just so someone can play a subpar DPS like Necro.

    As little as it add i dont think DM immidately outweighs it based on these changes sure some people are already pointing out a few super niche situations where it "might" work out for the better but if its gonna be in small cases like that there is no point im looking at the general overall and i dont see it as better for the reasons you said as well as others.

    Yea, not at all, I was just trying to think of any use for it whatsoever, with SH maybe being the one place to do it, even if it's still probably unnecessary.
    But that's Necro in a nutshell.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Asum.4960 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Waldrun.8493 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

    I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
    I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

    It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.

    How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

    More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic

    But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?
    Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???

    You would be surprised how little Soul Reaping adds for Scourge, but just the extra Toughness you get from DM makes it pretty unplayable in endgame group content for tanking reasons. Don't think any tank is want to go that high just so someone can play a subpar DPS like Necro.

    Only use of Scourge (or Necro in general), with or without DM, in all of PvE from what I see will be Soulless Horror, where you can tank with Trailblazer and maybe now taking DM while being the Epi bot.
    Aside from that, just don't even bother playing Necro. It was already so far behind everything else and now it's even worse.

    Hmmm, I was actually thinking about this, and this is theorycrafting to the max of course, but might there be a new role in store for the Necro (mostly Scourge probably)? A full DPS tank!? You can go full viper (or berserker if you want) and still have the most toughness. That way the rest could go base toughness entirely.
    No Support tanks needed anymore, we could now raid with DPS tanks! And what better job for the Necro to fulfil that role than anyone else, for their DPS was already poor BUT viable (as everyone always says), and with no real loss to their "viable" DPS, they can now fulfil an important role.
    Please react (of course I'm overlooking something really obvious here :), orso)

    Chrono already does the tanking as hybrid DPS though, except it also brings group buffs and buff extension to the table, as well as being able to block a wide variety of mechanics, which at times is really important, see Deimos etc.

    I know, but Chrono can then just go full Berserker/Diviner instead of needing Knight/Commander pieces. Which adds to overall DPS output, right?

  • @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    - Warrior's Cunning: This new trait increases damage by 25% against foes with health above 90%. Additionally, it increases damage by 50% against foes that have barrier. These bonuses do not stack.

    Oh. Okay. Sure. Just, make a trait that says "I win all fights against all Scourges regardless of how they play."

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Waldrun.8493 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

    I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
    I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

    It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.

    How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

    More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic

    But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?
    Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???

    You would be surprised how little Soul Reaping adds for Scourge, but just the extra Toughness you get from DM makes it pretty unplayable in endgame group content for tanking reasons. Don't think any tank is want to go that high just so someone can play a subpar DPS like Necro.

    Only use of Scourge (or Necro in general), with or without DM, in all of PvE from what I see will be Soulless Horror, where you can tank with Trailblazer and maybe now taking DM while being the Epi bot.
    Aside from that, just don't even bother playing Necro. It was already so far behind everything else and now it's even worse.

    Hmmm, I was actually thinking about this, and this is theorycrafting to the max of course, but might there be a new role in store for the Necro (mostly Scourge probably)? A full DPS tank!? You can go full viper (or berserker if you want) and still have the most toughness. That way the rest could go base toughness entirely.
    No Support tanks needed anymore, we could now raid with DPS tanks! And what better job for the Necro to fulfil that role than anyone else, for their DPS was already poor BUT viable (as everyone always says), and with no real loss to their "viable" DPS, they can now fulfil an important role.
    Please react (of course I'm overlooking something really obvious here :), orso)

    Chrono already does the tanking as hybrid DPS though, except it also brings group buffs and buff extension to the table, as well as being able to block a wide variety of mechanics, which at times is really important, see Deimos etc.

    I know, but Chrono can then just go full Berserker/Diviner instead of needing Knight/Commander pieces. Which adds to overall DPS output, right?

    But why.... lol why would chrono redo their gear for a necro with subpar performance if you want a dps chrono for overall dps then the gorup would just take another chrono built for raw dps (or any other pure dps class) along side the hybrid chrono. which adds to overall dps output even more. This change wont be a meta shift because necro already struggles to be a sub par tank on most bosses at best anyways with a very few being the exception.

    Maybe in a static where everyone knows the necro and chrono really well and they both have extra gear sets to do this kinda thing maybe but on the general terms of meta or even slightly off meta this concept is super rare im thinking.

    Even if we rip chrono out of the situation
    can be dps tank or dps support also so... would you even bother... lol im not sure how i feel about trying pass off something so horrible as passible by trying to fit it into super niche spots. :/

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    - Warrior's Cunning: This new trait increases damage by 25% against foes with health above 90%. Additionally, it increases damage by 50% against foes that have barrier. These bonuses do not stack.

    Oh. Okay. Sure. Just, make a trait that says "I win all fights against all Scourges regardless of how they play."

    Cant wait for those 20k rampage bolder throws ehh?
    Im sure thats gonna be the ez scourge shutdown lol

    Bolder already hits 12k as it is right now on a good crit im sure an extra 25% or 50% wont be too bad wheezing laughter

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2019

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Waldrun.8493 said:

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

    In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.

    I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
    I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.

    It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.

    How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?

    More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic

    But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?
    Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???

    You would be surprised how little Soul Reaping adds for Scourge, but just the extra Toughness you get from DM makes it pretty unplayable in endgame group content for tanking reasons. Don't think any tank is want to go that high just so someone can play a subpar DPS like Necro.

    Only use of Scourge (or Necro in general), with or without DM, in all of PvE from what I see will be Soulless Horror, where you can tank with Trailblazer and maybe now taking DM while being the Epi bot.
    Aside from that, just don't even bother playing Necro. It was already so far behind everything else and now it's even worse.

    Hmmm, I was actually thinking about this, and this is theorycrafting to the max of course, but might there be a new role in store for the Necro (mostly Scourge probably)? A full DPS tank!? You can go full viper (or berserker if you want) and still have the most toughness. That way the rest could go base toughness entirely.
    No Support tanks needed anymore, we could now raid with DPS tanks! And what better job for the Necro to fulfil that role than anyone else, for their DPS was already poor BUT viable (as everyone always says), and with no real loss to their "viable" DPS, they can now fulfil an important role.
    Please react (of course I'm overlooking something really obvious here :), orso)

    Don't think this will happen. But maybe.
    Necro takes way too much dmg to be a tank.
    Tanks are about dmg mitigation, not about facetanking. Now we could argue about barriers and parasitic contagion.
    Now:
    Choosing parasitic contagion is definitely a dps loss. But how much that is? I don't know. Gotta have to test it.
    Barriers: well we loose shroud cdr from sinister shroud in soulreaping
    With perma alacrity that's 1,2seconds less barrier uptime from f3.
    Also some bosses hit so hard, you don't want to facetank them. That also makes it very hard for healers, especially if you are only playing 1 healer in organised groups ;)

    Also makes your life force deplete more quickly. Cause less life force generation from loosing gluttony and you have to spam that f3.

  • I feel bad for you necros, after patch will be live. Its ez strategy in PvP, after shade focus necro. So scourge is wvw only class right now. Hope they will revert this.

    Jokaurene

  • @Catchyfx.5768 said:
    I feel bad for you necros, after patch will be live. Its ez strategy in PvP, after shade focus necro. So scourge is wvw only class right now. Hope they will revert this.

    No, in pvp, Necros are focused because they are food. It's just that after the patch, Necros become an all you can eat buffet for the next 15 seconds if they drop a shade.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019

    make wurm and swell instant. necs need some real kitten defense already.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Jasonbdj.4021Jasonbdj.4021 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Flumek.9043 said:
    This is ULTRA CRINGE LEVEL of clunky.

    Even for ANet, and even for necro standards.

    I think the best way for PVP is TO NEVER place a shade untill you already win a fight and are clearing downed bodies. Pathetic bad design.

    it just means if you want to cover the point and yourself you now have to place 2 shades one on the point and one on yourself or simply move yourself to your placed shade. its different it not exactly game breaking but it is forcing you to use more resources or not and just be the shade yourself.

    Perhaps though this is part of their overall plans with what they have cooked up for death magic.

    You shouldnt PvP at all, warriors will be able to do extra 50% damage to anyone who has a barrier.

    "Warrior's Cunning: This new trait increases damage by 25% against foes with health above 90%. Additionally, it increases damage by 50% against foes that have barrier. These bonuses do not stack."

    You will be putting whole team at risk lol

  • No support for Scourge here, it has been the bane of existence in WvW for too may months. I love Necromancer and this was our cancer in so many ways, as far as teams....no such thing in a bloody dot zerg. So sad that so many think it's necessary to follow some pimple on the butt of WvW to be validated. WvW needs to be about skill not blobs with the right combinations!

  • Warriors Cunning.... woaw, good thing for them aye. Apocalypse is nearing lads. These changes are something else. I'm shaking my head so violently it flew off its base.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    The thing is that warrior is designed around the idea that it play with "power". Increasing it's own power and it's allies power. The whole design of this profession revolve around this idea since launch. This is something that led ANet to reduce the warrior overall coefficient in the early days of the game because it made them the absolute king of PvE (Before the elementalist era). The issue is that it made the warrior an absolute trash in PvP, which led to balance in "numbers" that slowly put the warrior closer to it's release strength. Which is why despite their PvE support they deal an astounding level of damage now. The very existence of their support make them impossible to really balance in the game.

    The necromancer is in a different position. The necromancer is designed to make use of conditions, changing boons into conditions and conditions into boons, gathering conditions on himself and sending them on it's foes. Similarly to the warrior, it make the necromancer extremly difficult to balance for all gamemode throught numbers. However in case of the necromancer it's because PvE isn't designed to make use of the necromancer's design.

    The warrior's tools make him very strong in PvE and below average in PvP while the necromancer's tools make him strong in PvP and below average in PvE. Since ANet try it's best to address PvP in priority and a lot of players think that it's how it should be, the current situation is logical. The thing is that the necromancer need PvE to change for him to become balanced. The warrior on another hand is an impossible equation, it just cannot be "balanced" unless you remove from him the unique tools that give extra power which would go against it's design.

    Except Warrior is both insanely strong and meta in PvP (Spb) and PvE (BS-, Core, Berserker), while Necromancer is irrelevant in PvE (aside from condi Scourge with Epi on SH, and some other niche uses of hScourge for training groups) and just alright in PvP as Scourge unless getting carried by a FB negating all it's weaknesses.

    So not only does Warrior add the most group DPS out of all professions to PvE, it's also the ultimate sidenoder in PvP.
    The comparison between the two falls a bit short there.

    Well, my point was that the warrior couldn't be balanced in it's own way. The only way to make it relevant is to make it OP everywhere (which is the case, like you point out).

    ArenaNet also has shown to be unwilling over the last 7 years to change the design of all of PvE just to cater to Necro in order to make it viable, so maybe it's about time to just redesign Necro?
    As much as these proposed changes make sense in a vacuum, Necromancer doesn't work without getting carried by it's elite specialisations, and without a extensive core rework will just end up weaker in all the places it's already struggling to even be just absolute bottom tier viable as it is now.

    You're totally wrong here.

    Fact is ANet already made numerous change to PvE and even the game as a whole to make it relevant in PvE. Initially, you required firefields and blast to be relevant in PvE, ANet removed this "need". You also needed great mobility, the ability to cleave and a relatively high burst of dps. Now you seldom can skip mobs, while cleave and high burst have been given to the necromancer throught reaper. Fractal have been given instabilities that provide boons to the mobs and flood players with conditions.

    They did make effort to change the design of PvE to cater the necromancer, they even added things to the necromancer to make it more "viable" in PvE. Beside core isn't nearly as bad as you think, the issue isn't core, it's the design philosophy. The design philosophy say that the necromancer must defend itself through health point which in itself create load of issues. The design philosophy make shroud an omnipotent tool, which create issues. The design philosophy make the necromancer a lot more performant when there are death around him, which again create imbalances. The design philosophy aim at a necromancer that win throught a fight of attrition which isn't compatible with GW2 fast paced gameplay. The design philosophy see the necromancer as a master of condition manipulation which work really well in PvP/WvW but totally fail in PvE.

    The design philosophy of the necromancer need to change. It need to open room for flexibility, it need to be more in line with the pace and the design of the game. If not, the game can only adapt itself to the design philosophy of the necromancer.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    ArenaNet also has shown to be unwilling over the last 7 years to change the design of all of PvE just to cater to Necro in order to make it viable, so maybe it's about time to just redesign Necro?
    As much as these proposed changes make sense in a vacuum, Necromancer doesn't work without getting carried by it's elite specialisations, and without a extensive core rework will just end up weaker in all the places it's already struggling to even be just absolute bottom tier viable as it is now.

    You're totally wrong here.

    Fact is ANet already made numerous change to PvE and even the game as a whole to make it relevant in PvE. Initially, you required firefields and blast to be relevant in PvE, ANet removed this "need". You also needed great mobility, the ability to cleave and a relatively high burst of dps. Now you seldom can skip mobs, while cleave and high burst have been given to the necromancer throught reaper. Fractal have been given instabilities that provide boons to the mobs and flood players with conditions.

    They did make effort to change the design of PvE to cater the necromancer, they even added things to the necromancer to make it more "viable" in PvE. Beside core isn't nearly as bad as you think, the issue isn't core, it's the design philosophy. The design philosophy say that the necromancer must defend itself through health point which in itself create load of issues. The design philosophy make shroud an omnipotent tool, which create issues. The design philosophy make the necromancer a lot more performant when there are death around him, which again create imbalances. The design philosophy aim at a necromancer that win throught a fight of attrition which isn't compatible with GW2 fast paced gameplay. The design philosophy see the necromancer as a master of condition manipulation which work really well in PvP/WvW but totally fail in PvE.

    The design philosophy of the necromancer need to change. It need to open room for flexibility, it need to be more in line with the pace and the design of the game. If not, the game can only adapt itself to the design philosophy of the necromancer.

    To think they gave other classes superior Might generation in order to make blasting Fire fields less relevant so Necromancer could be more viable is more than far fetched, plus again, that is something that could have been fixed by maxing Necro's core kit better by for example adding a blast to Warhorn 4 and such, like every other profession with Warhorn.
    I'm not sure about what content we are talking about in terms of skipping mobs or where that got more difficult to make Necro's cleave relevant, but in general endgame content is mostly devoid off mass amounts of ads to cleave, but even if not, that's way too much of a minor niche for Necro as the challenge and focus is rarely on clearing the aptly named "trash" to justify bringing a Necro along, even if most everything else didn't have sufficient cleave as well.

    In terms of Fractals and boon application, since the core of Necro is indeed so inferior to other professions, that didn't matter either to make anyone consider Necro, as other professions with better over all kits and or DPS could take care of those mechanics all the same or better, from support Chrono to Spellbreaker BS to now Aalacrigade taking Mallyx.
    You can cater PvE to Necro all you want (if you chose to believe these additions were indeed aimed at Necro in the first place), and it still won't matter if everything else has superior core kits to deal with all the content.

    Now we agree on the issues with the design philosophy, but in my opinion that goes hand in hand with the lacklustre core (by which I consider core Weapons, Traits and Utilities).
    Necromancer is way too loaded on it's specialisation mechanic, especially when looking at Reaper and Scourge, which had to drastically overperform to make up for how lacklustre core/out of Shroud Necro truly is.

    Having both the entire defense and the vast majority of Necros offensive capabilities tied to one cool down/mechanic/resource, being Shroud/LF, while the Weapon skills itself hit like a wet noodle or have abysmal cast times/after casts (in addition to lacking any other effects and utility aside from the occasional corrupt), and Master or even Grandmaster Traits reading like other Professions Minor's (see Awaken the Pain vs. Pinnacle of Strength, Yearning Empowerment vs. Demonic Lore and on and on), is a terrible idea and design.

    Just imagine if Necromancer had Revenant's Corruption line instead of Curses, or Warrior's Strength instead of Spite and so on (if adapted to the profession mechanics and such where applicable).

    If you could pick any core weapon kit from any Profession, do you really think you would still use a single Necromancer weapon kit, pretty much for any playstyle across any gamemode (again, aside from Profession specific mechanics, like lacking LF generation or things like Symbol enhancement on Traits)?

    ArenaNet doomed the design of Necromancer the moment they decided to revolve it all around Shroud, loading all the damage and supposed defense into it, while neglecting any and all Utility and efficacy for the core Skill, Trait and Weapon design of Necro, which is severely lacking.

    The design philosophy see the necromancer as a master of condition manipulation which work really well in PvP/WvW but totally fail in PvE.

    And for this point, you just need to look at Condi Renegade with Mallyx, and how beautifully that works.
    It's a fantastic and META top Condi DPS for PvE, which takes care of boon strip as well. Functionality wise it's basically what Core Necro or somewhat Scourge should have been, but actually good.
    Similarly, Holosmith is basically Reaper, just fixed up to actually work with the game, and Holoforge is what Reaper Shroud should have been, in combination with a robust core kit, including robust active defenses, mobility and more.

    It's not like Anet can't make these gameplay concepts work, they just refuse to fix up the core of Necro, and instead rebrand the ideas and Gameplay Necro would have had if it were good with a different theme and give it to other professions.

    The design philosophy of the necromancer need to change. It need to open room for flexibility, it need to be more in line with the pace and the design of the game.

    And with that I can fully agree.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Akesi Xuni is the elite specialisation mentor for Scourge, when in dialogue with her she says:
    'We've refined our art beyond what Joko taught us. Most necromancers defend themselves with their own lifeforce. It seems contrary to me. We use shades instead.'
    'An extension of our power, allowing us to affect the near and far, casting spells from both ourselves and our shades. They're versatile, able to protect allies and attack foes.'

    Casting spells from the shades and yourself is basically the core mechanic of Scourge, it's part of their identity.

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @OutOfOrder.3719 said:
    It sounds like this change to the Scourge Shade mechanic will nerf PvP and PvE builds hard, and do nothing to address WvW large scale battles. what the kitten ??

    It wont really be a nerf in pve at all it will just require the player to pay slightly more attention to deal damage specifically for end game content.
    In pvp it is a nerf because scourge now is an easier target if it summon a shade.
    in wvw well... better get your anti tox runes.

    LOL

    But that said i mean if they make scourge subpar in every mode what is it suppose to do.

    Think about how this affects dpsing moving targets....

    Scourge was not suppose to be a dps that might be part of the problem.

    That said if you want to dps a moving target then dont summon a shade and move next to said target then use shade skills like every other form of necro... but you dont have a true shroud or hard defensive tools....

    hmmmm problem seems to go back to core necro woops...

    power dps aye but it was meant to be a condi dps

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Aside from all this, signets of suffering along with signet skills still got overlooked. Can we get statistics on how many people use signet trait in any gamemode?

    As for dm rework. The 300 power and 600 toughness is not enough to justify utility lost cuz of sr. The new toughness stacking is passive and not reliable, it wont help you when you need it.
    I think people here undervalue unholy sanctuary, its a good trait. It just needs like 100% increased healing.

    I also have complains about warhorn5 not getting looked upon after changes. The healing is nowhere enough from life siphon even with the trait. Considering necro has 0 usable blast finishers and no water fields we really suffer from resustain and warhorn5 is introduced as means to heal ourself outside shroud but the healing is nowhere enough even with the trait in bm(which also is outdated). Tbf i dont understand why they cant just give some weapon skills blast finishers which doesnt need enemy to stand on them, just like other classes. Dagger 5 is good potential skill for blast finishers animation wise.

    Blood bond bug fix killed all sustain from necro. It was holding together the class because all other traits have no qol and are not reliable. Now with this fix we only have unreliable traits left. We need qol and many traits and i dont think anet understands this. Future is looking bleak.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rico.6873 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @OutOfOrder.3719 said:
    It sounds like this change to the Scourge Shade mechanic will nerf PvP and PvE builds hard, and do nothing to address WvW large scale battles. what the kitten ??

    It wont really be a nerf in pve at all it will just require the player to pay slightly more attention to deal damage specifically for end game content.
    In pvp it is a nerf because scourge now is an easier target if it summon a shade.
    in wvw well... better get your anti tox runes.

    LOL

    But that said i mean if they make scourge subpar in every mode what is it suppose to do.

    Think about how this affects dpsing moving targets....

    Scourge was not suppose to be a dps that might be part of the problem.

    That said if you want to dps a moving target then dont summon a shade and move next to said target then use shade skills like every other form of necro... but you dont have a true shroud or hard defensive tools....

    hmmmm problem seems to go back to core necro woops...

    power dps aye but it was meant to be a condi dps

    No it was suppose to be a support elite in general. IT launched with inane amounts of condition pressure and damage and took roughly a year of bug fixing and nerfs to get it to what it is now and most people still see it as being too strong.

    But i guess anet designed it with pvp or wvw in mind by giving every ounce of its utility boon corruption.

    Scourge hardly supports as it its because barrier is a bit of a weak mechanic (useful in some niche situations vale guardian for example) but not very supportive overall because it expires so fast. Most of scourges support comes from the blood magic combination which feels more like bloodmagic with a bandaid fixed ontop to make it work some what better than it does on the other specs.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    Everyone is blowing this way out of proportion. Let’s see what the update brings in real world and go from there.

    You see the issue is that ANet seldom go back on a mechanism change even if it's absolutely terrible like warhorn#5 changes for example. So when such an unattractive change like this one which won't resolve the problem at hand in any way is announced, it's only natural for players to voice their worries.

    Agrees in Scrapper F5

    I never really played my Necro as DPS, but a few months back I fell in love with playing Heal Scourge in Fractals. Already a hard task since anytime someone zones in on a Healbrand (or asks for one to join) I'm firmly pushed to swapping to DPS, but now with this change, I'm wondering how any of it will work. I still kept my power DPS gear from when I thought I would play Reaper, so maybe I'll start trying that.

  • Ok I Did It.2854Ok I Did It.2854 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    We can discuss this all day and night, it wont matter, Anet very rarely changes their mind on things like this, this update was designed to slow us down in WvW, but it will have massive effects in PvE and PvP, the change is being pushed through with little to not respect for them modes, this happens often for necro,

    Sadly it wont change a thing, everyone in the game could stop playing necro and nothing would change, they dont know how to balance this class correctly, and when they think they have it right, in 1 game mode it destroys it in others.

    Best advice is to just drop necro and find a new class to play, ( im a core necro since launch, and ive just cut my play time down to an hour a week now, i cant bang my head on the desk anymore while the class i enjoy gets pushed into the dirt anymore ) good luck getting a necro into high end fractals or raids now.

    We wont get any feedback from the balance team on why they did these changes, we just have to suck it up, they would be honestly far better for them to just announce they want to remove necro from the game instead of pushing it out of nearly all game modes with continuous nerfs, sad days.

    Good Luck

    Don't say what you mean, it will get you in trouble.

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