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Jormag's Plan


Khnemu.6029

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So there's been something I've been thinking of...

Looking at the announcement and the trailer, Jormag doesn't seem to want us dead. They want us as allies to bring about a new Tyria.

So then I got to thinking, why was the Commander invited to the Charr celebrations? If you're playing a Charr specifically, it makes sense, but why invite the Commander in general? Braham would've gone without us, I'm sure, if you mention it as a sort of Norn/Charr peace offer. Was it to inspire fear with Aurene? Or was it something else?

Does Jormag want the mole that we suspect is in the group to lead the Commander to him? Is that why the mole left just enough clues around for us to follow Bangar (rumors, obvious-looking bad guys, stealing the bow, etc.)? What if the colossus was not actually to stop us from following, but to stop us from turning around (as in, maybe it wouldn't have left toward the village)?

If it was Jormag's usual methods, the Commander would use caution before approaching. After all, they have no direct line of contact with the Commander and nobody they know would be manipulated so easily. But Bangar and Rytlock's son on the other hand... For the sake of Rytlock, the Commander would want to follow Bangar and the others to save them from getting in over their heads. This would get the Commander to willingly meet with Jormag without any concerns for their own safety.

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Jormag is the dragon of persuasion, so it makes sense to me that they would want to 'recruit' the Commander if possible before outright trying to destroy them.

! I don't think the Commander or anyone in Dragon's Watch has connected these strange happenings with Jormag, yet, though, aside from knowing that Bangar has now implicated the dragon in his own plan for power.

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@"Khnemu.6029" said:So there's been something I've been thinking of...

Looking at the announcement and the trailer, Jormag doesn't seem to want us dead. They want us as allies to bring about a new Tyria.

If one assumes Jormag is speaking to the Commander.

So then I got to thinking, why was the Commander invited to the Charr celebrations? If you're playing a Charr specifically, it makes sense, but why invite the Commander in general? Braham would've gone without us, I'm sure, if you mention it as a sort of Norn/Charr peace offer. Was it to inspire fear with Aurene? Or was it something else?

Bangar wasn't really expecting Aurene's arrival or actions. He also invited Almorra. I mean, ignoring the whole "the PC needs a reason to go", it would make it seem all the more official if Bangar invited the Dragonslayer to a celebration about the slaying of the dragon.

Does Jormag want the mole that we suspect is in the group to lead the Commander to him? Is that why the mole left just enough clues around for us to follow Bangar (rumors, obvious-looking bad guys, stealing the bow, etc.)? What if the colossus was not actually to stop us from following, but to stop us from turning around (as in, maybe it wouldn't have left toward the village)?

An interesting notion, but I'm not yet convinced that Bangar is under Jormag's control. Will it happen? Highly likely. Has it? Doubtfully.

@"Bander.5194" said:

! I don't think the Commander or anyone in Dragon's Watch has connected these strange happenings with Jormag, yet, though, aside from knowing that Bangar has now implicated the dragon in his own plan for power.

That is correct. Jormag's involvement officially is merely "Bangar is planning to dominate and control it".

Anything beyond that is player speculation.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Khnemu.6029 said:Does Jormag want the mole that we suspect is in the group to lead the Commander to him? Is that why the mole left just enough clues around for us to follow Bangar (rumors, obvious-looking bad guys, stealing the bow, etc.)? What if the colossus was not actually to stop us from following, but to stop us from turning around (as in, maybe it wouldn't have left toward the village)?

An interesting notion, but I'm not yet convinced that Bangar is under Jormag's control. Will it happen? Highly likely. Has it? Doubtfully.Sorry for any misunderstanding. I didn't mean that Bangar himself is, at the moment anyway, under Jormag's control, but we can assume that somebody close to him is (the mole I mentioned). They are the one I'm talking about when I talk about someone leading the Commander (Aurene's Champion) to meet with Jormag. Bangar (and Rytlock's son if he's not the one being controlled) is just the lure to get the Commander there.

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Jormag's strategy unlike the other dragons so far is to seduce it's minions into it's corrption rather than overwhelm them and corrupt them by force.. I.E branded/risen.

Even if you just take the trailer dialogue alone and that dialogue is aimed at the commander the message is very clearly "join me or die"Other dragons have made similar claims in the past, Mordremoth pulled a similar trick on Sylvari though it was more aggressive, domination rather than persuasion.Zhaitan too had it's minions demand submission from the living on occasion but never give them a second option.

Jormag seems more the kind to hide it's true power and forces, perhaps even being willing to confront us face to face and speak to us directly which will be a first for an Elder Dragon and I seriously hope Anet does this in a really flashy environment like on top of a cliff in a blizzard, with Jormags face or features like it's eyes occasionally coming into view.. just enough that we know it's actually there but Jormag intentionally remaining elusive in the blizzard so that we never truly get a good view of the Dragon until we reject it's offer to join it and it reveals it's full face emerging from the blizzard to get very up close and personal, displaying it's massive size and dominance over us, showing just how easily it could kill is right then and there if it wanted to.. before it remarks at our foolishness or how much we'll regret this decision later before it retreats back into the blizzard and disappears.

And introduction like that albiet with far better writers and talent behind it could be one hell of a memorable introduction to this Dragon.

I loved those face to face encounters with Kralkatorrik in PoF and living world 4, so I hope Jormag at least gets one moment like that.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:Jormag's strategy unlike the other dragons so far is to seduce it's minions into it's corrption rather than overwhelm them and corrupt them by force.. I.E branded/risen.

Even if you just take the trailer dialogue alone and that dialogue is aimed at the commander the message is very clearly "join me or die"Other dragons have made similar claims in the past, Mordremoth pulled a similar trick on Sylvari though it was more aggressive, domination rather than persuasion.Zhaitan too had it's minions demand submission from the living on occasion but never give them a second option.

Jormag seems more the kind to hide it's true power and forces, perhaps even being willing to confront us face to face and speak to us directly which will be a first for an Elder Dragon and I seriously hope Anet does this in a really flashy environment like on top of a cliff in a blizzard, with Jormags face or features like it's eyes occasionally coming into view.. just enough that we know it's actually there but Jormag intentionally remaining elusive in the blizzard so that we never truly get a good view of the Dragon until we reject it's offer to join it and it reveals it's full face emerging from the blizzard to get very up close and personal, displaying it's massive size and dominance over us, showing just how easily it could kill is right then and there if it wanted to.. before it remarks at our foolishness or how much we'll regret this decision later before it retreats back into the blizzard and disappears.

And introduction like that albiet with far better writers and talent behind it could be one hell of a memorable introduction to this Dragon.

I loved those face to face encounters with Kralkatorrik in PoF and living world 4, so I hope Jormag at least gets one moment like that.

you mean a bit what they did with Mordremoth in the trailer, with rytlock throwing that wyvern over the cliff and Mordremoth coming up from it "who dare stands against me?"

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@Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Jormag's strategy unlike the other dragons so far is to seduce it's minions into it's corrption rather than overwhelm them and corrupt them by force.. I.E branded/risen.

Even if you just take the trailer dialogue alone and that dialogue is aimed at the commander the message is very clearly "join me or die"Other dragons have made similar claims in the past, Mordremoth pulled a similar trick on Sylvari though it was more aggressive, domination rather than persuasion.Zhaitan too had it's minions demand submission from the living on occasion but never give them a second option.

Jormag seems more the kind to hide it's true power and forces, perhaps even being willing to confront us face to face and speak to us directly which will be a first for an Elder Dragon and I seriously hope Anet does this in a really flashy environment like on top of a cliff in a blizzard, with Jormags face or features like it's eyes occasionally coming into view.. just enough that we know it's actually there but Jormag intentionally remaining elusive in the blizzard so that we never truly get a good view of the Dragon until we reject it's offer to join it and it reveals it's full face emerging from the blizzard to get very up close and personal, displaying it's massive size and dominance over us, showing just how easily it could kill is right then and there if it wanted to.. before it remarks at our foolishness or how much we'll regret this decision later before it retreats back into the blizzard and disappears.

And introduction like that albiet with far better writers and talent behind it could be one hell of a memorable introduction to this Dragon.

I loved those face to face encounters with Kralkatorrik in PoF and living world 4, so I hope Jormag at least gets one moment like that.

you mean a bit what they did with Mordremoth in the trailer, with rytlock throwing that wyvern over the cliff and Mordremoth coming up from it "who dare stands against me?"

Nah that was a trailer, i'm talking about an in game moment to debut the dragon with a face to face encounter.

Kinda like how they first showed Kralkatorrik during the final story instance of PoF with his face emerging from a brandstorm only this time Jormag will be the center of attention and we'll be actively speaking to it without being distracted by an additional boss fight.All eyes and ears will be focused on Jormag who would remain mostly concealed within a blizzard, toying with us until it wants to get right up in our face and show itself.

That's my vision for our first encounter with it anyway.

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Pretty sure Bangar, Ryland, and their group are all going to be icebrooded either way in the next one or two episodes as soon as they use Braham's bow on Jormag regardless of whether or not Jormag is directly or indirectly influencing either or both of them.

Jormag knows if he goes into outright battle with the Pact, commander, Aurene, and the full Charr/Norn armies he will most likely lose the fight (especially after being seemingly weakened from the blast he received), so he will probably try to persuade large portions of those groups (likely the PC and Aurene soon) to join him to even out the field, like he already seems to have succeeded in this with Bangar's forces. I'm guessing that Jormag will target the Norn soon by going after the Spirits of the Wild and icrebrooding them to persuade their followers to join him.

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I really hope they don't get corrupted so quickly. ArenaNet has a bad habit of making stories way too fast paced. They have said they regret killing Joko off so quickly, and Bangar seems like another attempt at a personality-filled villain akin to Joko, so I think they'll try to make him last more than just a couple releases.

Depending on the length of season 5, I could easily see Ryland being a mid-season boss while Bangar the season finale (or penultimate boss), with Drakkar hopefully given a role bigger than a mere world boss. This is assuming The Icebrood Saga is 6 (or 8) episodes long, and Jormag, like Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik, is involved in more than one storyline.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:I really hope they don't get corrupted so quickly. ArenaNet has a bad habit of making stories way too fast paced. They have said they regret killing Joko off so quickly, and Bangar seems like another attempt at a personality-filled villain akin to Joko, so I think they'll try to make him last more than just a couple releases.

Depending on the length of season 5, I could easily see Ryland being a mid-season boss while Bangar the season finale (or penultimate boss), with Drakkar hopefully given a role bigger than a mere world boss. This is assuming The Icebrood Saga is 6 (or 8) episodes long, and Jormag, like Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik, is involved in more than one storyline.

But that would mean that it will be just as the Plague, so basically if we take away the Longbow from him, Aurene will come in and smash away basically...

Bangar is basically fighting two Gods and want to team up with Jormag that is just a force of nature wanting more power. :D

Joko was a poorly written character, not because of his personality and how he acted, but that he had basically not a real payoff in the future, but if we count some last minute Ogden's prophecy, then yeah his death was sooo meaningful.

Scarlet's death caused Mordremoth to awake, Killing Mordremoth caused the magic to go wild, then Balthazar's death caused Kralkatorrik go wild.

Now if Bangar is Joko 2.0, then it means he doesn't have a good plan and plan B to screw us up.

Bangar would have to team up with the Astral beings or out of Tyria gods to even count, and now he will just become the puppet of the Ice Dragon or will just threaten Jormag with the Longbow, that if Jormag won't cooperate with Bangar, Bangar will shoot an arrow, that would be just meh.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

An interesting notion, but I'm not yet convinced that Bangar is under Jormag's control. Will it happen? Highly likely. Has it? Doubtfully.

@"Bander.5194" said:

! I don't think the Commander or anyone in Dragon's Watch has connected these strange happenings with Jormag, yet, though, aside from knowing that Bangar has now implicated the dragon in his own plan for power.

That is correct. Jormag's involvement officially is merely "Bangar is planning to dominate and control it".

Anything beyond that is player speculation.

@"Khnemu.6029" said:

Sorry for any misunderstanding. I didn't mean that Bangar himself is, at the moment anyway, under Jormag's control, but we can assume that somebody close to him is (the mole I mentioned). They are the one I'm talking about when I talk about someone leading the Commander (Aurene's Champion) to meet with Jormag. Bangar (and Rytlock's son if he's not the one being controlled) is just the lure to get the Commander there.

In my opinion, Bangar is not seeking power. He is not even trying to kill Jormag. He knows that by killing another Elder Dragon without having a substitute will end the World. Bangar is seeking death. An heroic death, suited for an old school Blood Legion leader. By his death he wants to give to the Blood Legion the chance to transform into something having a goal even in peace times. Something he cannot find, but the next leader should. And he took the Renegades with him - they will dye also. And the survivors will understand that an Elder Dragon is not something a single legion can handle. And I think the Renegades will stop acting against the peace (something like the Nightmare Court after finding what Mordremoth truly wants).

The "let's even the odds by killing our own ED" is only propaganda for the Separatist and for the hot headed Blood Legions following him. Because Blood Legion has the odds on its side. Rytlock is one of the only 3 living persons (the other are Caithe and the Commander) who participated in 3 full campaigns against 3 ED, personally taking part to the final battle every time. What odds to even?

As a personal note, I don't want Rytlock as the new Imperator. Because an Imperator cannot leave his duties to join the Dragon Watch actions every times his guildmates will need him.

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I think its possible Jormag is speaking to Rytlock. Just watch the trailer, it starts with showing a charr that looks like Rytlock holding a cub (Ryland). Also what emerges from the storm to face rytlock, an icebrood charr that looks similar to Rytlock.

As for Jormag's plan we know it must be trying to amass an army through the events of bound by blood. I dont think the army is for the standard assault the world thing. The devs said that Jormag found an opportunity and is trying to seize it or something like that. I think Jormag's plan could be something beyond the world maybe.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:I really hope they don't get corrupted so quickly. ArenaNet has a bad habit of making stories way too fast paced. They have said they regret killing Joko off so quickly, and Bangar seems like another attempt at a personality-filled villain akin to Joko, so I think they'll try to make him last more than just a couple releases.

Depending on the length of season 5, I could easily see Ryland being a mid-season boss while Bangar the season finale (or penultimate boss), with Drakkar hopefully given a role bigger than a mere world boss. This is assuming The Icebrood Saga is 6 (or 8) episodes long, and Jormag, like Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik, is involved in more than one storyline.

Bangar is the type of Villain that maybe might survive for another saga hopefully. Especially if we get more charr focus story lines in the future going deeper into the Charr homelands, which may or may not happen after this season.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I really hope they don't get corrupted so quickly. ArenaNet has a bad habit of making stories way too fast paced. They have said they regret killing Joko off so quickly, and Bangar seems like another attempt at a personality-filled villain akin to Joko, so I think they'll try to make him last more than just a couple releases.

yeah, Bangar is they chance to redeem themselfs from "long live the lich" fiasco.

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@Bander.5194 said:Jormag is the dragon of persuasion, so it makes sense to me that they would want to 'recruit' the Commander if possible before outright trying to destroy them.

! I don't think the Commander or anyone in Dragon's Watch has connected these strange happenings with Jormag, yet, though, aside from knowing that Bangar has now implicated the dragon in his own plan for power.

So Bangar is seeking Jormag, and strange ice storms are interfering with their ability to follow him. Is the Commander a total moron? Actually, don't answer that.

Well, the good news is that we could probably just find an alternate path to catch up with Bangar. Maybe there are some abandoned Dwarven ruins that could let us pass under the mountain and the storms. Probably minimal chance that they delved too deep and unearthed a giant destroyer or something.

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@perilisk.1874 said:

@"Bander.5194" said:Jormag is the dragon of persuasion, so it makes sense to me that they would want to 'recruit' the Commander if possible before outright trying to destroy them.

! I don't think the Commander or anyone in Dragon's Watch has connected these strange happenings with Jormag, yet, though, aside from knowing that Bangar has now implicated the dragon in his own plan for power.

So Bangar is seeking Jormag, and strange ice storms are interfering with their ability to follow him. Is the Commander a total moron? Actually, don't answer that.

Well, the good news is that we could probably just find an alternate path to catch up with Bangar. Maybe there are some abandoned Dwarven ruins that could let us pass under the mountain and the storms. Probably minimal chance that they delved too deep and unearthed a giant destroyer or something.

Jormag is, at the moment asleep (or there has been zero reports of Jormag being active). For them to ponder what's causing increased storms without instantly screaming "JORMAG!" is reasonable.

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@Arden.7480 said:I am talking about Right now, not before the Commander's bond with Aurene became god-like in War Eternal.

Nothing says the bond made the Commander stronger. Let alone godlike.

Gods are capable of reshaping entire countries in battle. The Commander is nothing close.

@Arden.7480 said:There were only two situations when the Commander was defeated in combat and two of them were in PoF content, before and now we'd been losing people, but always winning wars, despite the difficulties.

Three. The Commander lost twice to Balthazar, and once to Joko. Two of the three defeats were in one-on-one combat.

The only reason why the Commander didn't die to Joko, is because of Aurene Ex Gagkilla.

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:In my opinion, Bangar is not seeking power. He is not even trying to kill Jormag. He knows that by killing another Elder Dragon without having a substitute will end the World. Bangar is seeking death. An heroic death, suited for an old school Blood Legion leader. By his death he wants to give to the Blood Legion the chance to transform into something having a goal even in peace times. Something he cannot find, but the next leader should. And he took the Renegades with him - they will dye also. And the survivors will understand that an Elder Dragon is not something a single legion can handle. And I think the Renegades will stop acting against the peace (something like the Nightmare Court after finding what Mordremoth truly wants).

The "let's even the odds by killing our own ED" is only propaganda for the Separatist and for the hot headed Blood Legions following him. Because Blood Legion has the odds on its side. Rytlock is one of the only 3 living persons (the other are Caithe and the Commander) who participated in 3 full campaigns against 3 ED, personally taking part to the final battle every time. What odds to even?

The issue with this idea - as interesting as it is - is that Bangar has been financing the Renegades for years, perhaps since the beginning. He didn't just suddenly take Renegade forces under his wing, they have been under his wing. Just like Caudecus with Separatists, except where Caudecus funds Separatists, Bangar commands Renegades.

Bangar is, without a doubt, a through and through racist / charr supremacist. Particularly against humans, but it seems even against asura (possibly sylvari given their nature, not sure if that was brought up in Bound by Blood though). And Rytlock having been present in the deaths of three Elder Dragons doesn't even the odds of his alliances not being fully towards Blood - same with a Blood Charr Commander. They view Aurene as being "the Pact's pet" (despite the Commander no longer being a formal officer of the Pact), and Rytlock as being a member of that group before their own.

As a personal note, I don't want Rytlock as the new Imperator. Because an Imperator cannot leave his duties to join the Dragon Watch actions every times his guildmates will need him.

Crecia will become new Blood Imperator. Even Rytlock recognizes that - as shown when he looked toward Crecia when Bangar told Rytlock to kill him and become Imperator. At least that was my interpretation of Rytlock's glance.

@perilisk.1874 said:So Bangar is seeking Jormag, and strange ice storms are interfering with their ability to follow him. Is the Commander a total moron? Actually, don't answer that.

It's almost as if snowstorms are a natural occurrence in the world.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@perilisk.1874 said:So Bangar is seeking Jormag, and strange ice storms are interfering with their ability to follow him. Is the Commander a total moron? Actually, don't answer that.

It's almost as if snowstorms are a natural occurrence in the world.

And/or there are more individuals or groups capable of summoning ice elementals/constructs and snowstorms then Jormag.

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@Kalavier.1097 said:And/or there are more individuals or groups capable of summoning ice elementals/constructs and snowstorms then Jormag.Crecia commented that the construct seemed to have been summoned by a shaman, not Jormag. But as far as the Commander and everyone knows, Jormag is asleep. We've seen with Scarlet that dragons can communicate with their minions while slumbering (or it could even be Drakkar doing the communicating on Jormag's behalf), but they have no reason to suspect Jormag is awake yet. Taimi or the Norns would've probably said something, and like with Mordremoth, there would've probably been a loud roar that could be heard across the region.

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