Changes to barrier

[Nimon.7840]

So with the upcoming balance patch, necros barriers will get their base values cut in PvP and WvW. While the contribution of healing power goes up.

I really like that change, and I'd like to see that change for pve as well with some tweaks.

So in order to not hardnerf support scourge, we would need to take the maximum barrier that we can get with, let's say 1500 healpower, then lower the base barrier value, but with 1500 healpower, you will get the same max. Barrier value as before.

So for the example:Base barrier: 1000, bonus barrier with 1500 healpower: 3000 = 4000barrier in total

Now nerf base values of barriers:Base barrier: 500But increase healing power contribution:Bonus barrier at 1500 healpower: 3500= 4000barrier in total

Why would I like to see that?It makes stacking full dmg scourges a lot less efficient.And would open up for more dmg on necro.

[Fueki.4753]

Rather than touching barrier even more, I would rather see hard nerfs to the conditions application and damage from the F-skills.It was supposed to be a support spec, not a damage spec, so Arenanet should tune it that way.

[Zero.3871]

@Fueki.4753 said:Rather than touching barrier even more, I would rather see hard nerfs to the conditions application and damage from the F-skills.It was supposed to be a support spec, not a damage spec, so Arenanet should tune it that way.

i dont know why people are so stubborn with this point. finally scourge dmg against single targets is one of the weakest overall. scourge only does good dmg when hitting 10 targets at the same time. thats the reason you stack scourges. on the other side, support by scourges is not really strong. in comparison to massive heal, boonspam of other classes. you could change that yes, but for what? if you change all f skills to do some support effects, people will still cry about boonhate and will start to say this support f skills are too OP.

e.g. firebrand is also a heavy support oriented spec but can also be build around doing HEAVY dmg. i see no one complaining there...e.g. reaper is build as strong melee brawler, but can also be one shotted through shroud in an instant. while other classes get infinity sustain by invuls. no one complaining here too.i could continue...

but i just want to say, think out of the box and dont focus on 2 years old stories.

in fact, necro is designed around condis and being a group fight class. and at the moment he does condis and is strong in group fights while weak in solo play seems for me he does exactly whats intended. (just to mention that his power dmg will get nerfed, because it is not intended).

but i am excited to see what will happen :D, maybe in future we will all see scourge support over FB :3

[Asum.4960]

@Fueki.4753 said:Rather than touching barrier even more, I would rather see hard nerfs to the conditions application and damage from the F-skills.It was supposed to be a support spec, not a damage spec, so Arenanet should tune it that way.

Similar to Firebrand, it was supposed to be both either a Condi DPS or a Support spec.

The problem with just more nerfs to damage is Scourge already does around only 50% of the DPS a Mirage does in PvE, which already is ridiculous (Scourges typically hovering around 20k DPS while Mirage, including Confusion shenanigans, being at around 40k DPS).Scourge is getting hard carried by Epi which at least gives it some niche uses on things like MO and SH. Any further nerfs to the damage output of Scourge, which rather is in desperate need of buffs for PvE, pretty much means Necro as a whole doesn't have a viable condition build.It already feels terrible that the entire class is reduced in effectiveness to one skill to spread the damage applied of other professions in niche cases.Besides that, support Scourge already is a pretty niche spec as well, carried by the rez gimmick which is overshadowed by vastly better supports (which also provide a variety of boons) that are much better at preventing downstates in the first place and are therefor much superior for anything but rough training runs.

I don't see anything short of a Shade and Scourge GM's rework to fix the issue of Scourge in PvP modes vs PvE modes.Tweaking some barrier numbers won't do the trick by a long shot.

I still think the multiple shades is a bad mechanic in general that doesn't see much use as intended.One small shade should be baseline with some significant damage buffs (to core Necro, not loaded into Shades), while big Shade as a GM Trait should remove all damage, direct or condi, from Manifest Sand Shade and other Shade Skills and instead increase the Target Cap as it does now as well as applying different boons to allies with the varying Shade skills and add things like rolling heals on Desert Shroud instead etc.

Something along those lines could create a distinct difference between DPS condi Scourge and Support Scourge, as well as giving Scourge something besides barrier spam and a rez gimmick in order to compete with other supports, as well as preventing it from being both support and DPS.

[MethaneGas.8357]

Where did you find this change to barrier?

[Nimon.7840]

@"MethaneGas.8357" said:Where did you find this change to barrier?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/86662/future-potential-wvw-centric-balance-changes-september-6th-2019/p1

Only applying in pvp-modes

[Anchoku.8142]

Scourge needs stronger scaling and trades between healing and conditions as well as a larger split between game modes so not sharing barriers and having little or no healing gives solid condi dps while support spec's give more appropriate levels of support at lower dps.

Maybe Arenanet could split on the number of targets for AoE in WvW depending on build. That is, the number of targets to corrupt is low in barrier-share builds and higher in selfish builds.

Likewise, in PvE, condition dps is modified based on whether barrier-sharing is used so selfish Scourge has good dps.

[Maven.1690]

So here is the calcs i came up with based on the latest notes for Sand Cascade Barrier sizeshttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/87353/future-potential-wvw-centric-balance-changes-september-13th-2019Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.

CurrentlyWith Zero Healing Power Sand Cascade provides a Barrier of 2428with 1200 Healing power that barrier is 3477 ie (.874 * 1200) + 2428

Post PatchWith Zero Healing Power Sand Cascade provides a Barrier of 1627with 1200 Healing power that barrier is 2886 ie (.874 (12001.2)) + 1627

So you will see a larger gap in the variation of barrier sizes.But one will need to invest heavily into healing power to maintain the sizes of the barriers we are used to today without any healing power.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@"Maven.1690" said:So here is the calcs i came up with based on the latest notes for Sand Cascade Barrier sizeshttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/87353/future-potential-wvw-centric-balance-changes-september-13th-2019Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.

CurrentlyWith Zero Healing Power Sand Cascade provides a Barrier of 2428with 1200 Healing power that barrier is 3477 ie (.874 * 1200) + 2428

Post PatchWith Zero Healing Power Sand Cascade provides a Barrier of 1627with 1200 Healing power that barrier is 2886 ie (.874 (12001.2)) + 1627

So you will see a larger gap in the variation of barrier sizes.But one will need to invest heavily into healing power to maintain the sizes of the barriers we are used to today without any healing power.

The math is right, but you aren't taking into account the new 10 target cap instead of 5

Base f3 barrier was 2.4k, going to be 1.7k now. But you're applying it to 10 people, so 2 scourges per 10 people will now apply 3.4k to each where they used to apply 2.4k to each. Just cast f3 before you cast f1 so the aoe affects the area around you instead of at the shade location. This patch is a direct buff to both scourge offense and defense in wvw

[Nimon.7840]

Buff to wvw Necro, where scourge should be nerfed.Nerf to pve Necro where it needs buffs...

Just ridiculous

[Anchoku.8142]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Maven.1690 said:This patch is a direct buff to both scourge offense and defense in wvw

I suspect Scourge offense and Scourge defense will become 2 players instead of one doing both tasks.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Maven.1690 said:This patch is a direct buff to both scourge offense and defense in wvw

I suspect Scourge offense and Scourge defense will become 2 players instead of one doing both tasks.

Just cast f3 before f1 in the shade bomb, now each scourge does both. F3 barriers everyone around you since you don't have a shade up yet. Then f1 places the shade and f2/4/5 all deal damage at the shade location