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Thief is dying and thats nothing new... ANET hates the thief?


Tharrkar.5692

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Focusing on PvP and WvW, thief can 1v1 pretty much anything. Any time a thief complains about not doing enough damage I’m convinced it is a build issue. You don’t have to build for super high damage but there are plenty of builds out there that do large spike damage.

There are harder matchups but only Holo and maybe Spellbreaker (with rampage) get to the level of being much stronger than thief. Upcoming changes will make Holo a better, if not necessarily equal, matchup. Mirage can go either way if you have the right build for it, and you shouldn’t run something that can never win.

There isn’t just @bluri.2653 at the top. There are plenty of platinum ranked thieves who just play thief, which is something given how often people at the top will multiclass and swap based on comp.

Could a few traits/skills be improved a bit? Absolutely. But what we really need is other professions to be toned down a little.

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@"Leonidrex.5649" said:I was reading, and lost it when you said Mesmer has almost triple the damage of thief https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/thief/deadeye/rifle/ or https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/thief/deadeye/power/ and as it currently stands in pvp, I dont see mesmers anywhere, why ? thief does everything mesmer does. but better, why play cmirage if you can play cthief. and both power specs are not that gr8 so comparing them sucks. Now is a good time to play thief in pvp, make condi and have some fun while it lasts, becouse i bet this condi cancer gonna be nerfed.

it is the exact opposite my dude mesmer does anything that thief does just better i dont understand how u can say that it feels like u have never played thief or mesmer before and if u would have read the thread then u would know that even the big thief youtubers all agree with that and what u posted are benchmarks from one of the best if not the best pve guild ingame most people will not reach those numbers and i wasnt only talking in raids or damage alone i was talking about the whole deal from sustain to cc to damage

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@Tharrkar.5692 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:I was reading, and lost it when you said Mesmer has almost triple the damage of thief
or
and as it currently stands in pvp, I dont see mesmers anywhere, why ? thief does everything mesmer does. but better, why play cmirage if you can play cthief. and both power specs are not that gr8 so comparing them sucks. Now is a good time to play thief in pvp, make condi and have some fun while it lasts, becouse i bet this condi cancer gonna be nerfed.

it is the exact opposite my dude mesmer does anything that thief does just better i dont understand how u can say that it feels like u have never played thief or mesmer before and if u would have read the thread then u would know that even the big thief youtubers all agree with that and what u posted are benchmarks from one of the best if not the best pve guild ingame most people will not reach those numbers and i wasnt only talking in raids or damage alone i was talking about the whole deal from sustain to cc to damage

you took "almost triple" damage out of your bum mate. and excuse of " im not good enaught to pull these numbers " should never be a reason to buff anything, becouse if VERY good thief can pull 30k dps, buffing them suddenly makes them over the top, still wont fix the issue for you since you dont know how to deal damage int he first place.

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Uhhhh when was the last time you played thief? Because right now, thief is on top of the pvp food chain. A condi thief will smoke pretty much anything in a 1v1 fight. Team fights? Depending on your setup. A d/d condi thief will wipe a whole team at mid if they cant catch him. Condi thieves carry teams now in spvp. Dying??? Maybe for the ol d/p and power thieves. They have no place in pvp anymore. Condi is king and the proof is in the matches. There is a reason why when you que up.. A lot of times you will be in a match with 2-3 condi thieves just on your team alone.

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@rowdy.5107 said:Uhhhh when was the last time you played thief? Because right now, thief is on top of the pvp food chain. A condi thief will smoke pretty much anything in a 1v1 fight. Team fights? Depending on your setup. A d/d condi thief will wipe a whole team at mid if they cant catch him. Condi thieves carry teams now in spvp. Dying??? Maybe for the ol d/p and power thieves. They have no place in pvp anymore. Condi is king and the proof is in the matches. There is a reason why when you que up.. A lot of times you will be in a match with 2-3 condi thieves just on your team alone.

Uh, not really. Unless we are talking about 100% silver tier. Not saying condi thief isn’t effective but wiping whole teams? Much hyperbole very stronk.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@rowdy.5107 said:Uhhhh when was the last time you played thief? Because right now, thief is on top of the pvp food chain. A condi thief will smoke pretty much anything in a 1v1 fight. Team fights? Depending on your setup. A d/d condi thief will wipe a whole team at mid if they cant catch him. Condi thieves carry teams now in spvp. Dying??? Maybe for the ol d/p and power thieves. They have no place in pvp anymore. Condi is king and the proof is in the matches. There is a reason why when you que up.. A lot of times you will be in a match with 2-3 condi thieves just on your team alone.

Uh, not really. Unless we are talking about 100% silver tier. Not saying condi thief isn’t effective but wiping whole teams? Much hyperbole very stronk.

I donno what game you've been playing lately. But ive seen mid getting wiped by condi thieves constantly. A d/d thief can do it. Also, short bow #4 can easily wipe out a group of enemies. If you don't believe me... I suggest trying it out for yourself. There is a reason why condi thieves are everywhere. And there is a reason why all the pvp posts lately are of sad pandas crying about condi thieves.

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@rowdy.5107 said:

@rowdy.5107 said:Uhhhh when was the last time you played thief? Because right now, thief is on top of the pvp food chain. A condi thief will smoke pretty much anything in a 1v1 fight. Team fights? Depending on your setup. A d/d condi thief will wipe a whole team at mid if they cant catch him. Condi thieves carry teams now in spvp. Dying??? Maybe for the ol d/p and power thieves. They have no place in pvp anymore. Condi is king and the proof is in the matches. There is a reason why when you que up.. A lot of times you will be in a match with 2-3 condi thieves just on your team alone.

Uh, not really. Unless we are talking about 100% silver tier. Not saying condi thief isn’t effective but wiping whole teams? Much hyperbole very stronk.

I donno what game you've been playing lately. But ive seen mid getting wiped by condi thieves constantly. A d/d thief can do it. Also, short bow #4 can easily wipe out a group of enemies. If you don't believe me... I suggest trying it out for yourself. There is a reason why condi thieves are everywhere. And there is a reason why all the pvp posts lately are of sad pandas crying about condi thieves.

EU/NA? Rank?

I’m queuing NA platinum as a hybrid P/D DE and I’m not seeing them wiping people in mid.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@rowdy.5107 said:Uhhhh when was the last time you played thief? Because right now, thief is on top of the pvp food chain. A condi thief will smoke pretty much anything in a 1v1 fight. Team fights? Depending on your setup. A d/d condi thief will wipe a whole team at mid if they cant catch him. Condi thieves carry teams now in spvp. Dying??? Maybe for the ol d/p and power thieves. They have no place in pvp anymore. Condi is king and the proof is in the matches. There is a reason why when you que up.. A lot of times you will be in a match with 2-3 condi thieves just on your team alone.

Uh, not really. Unless we are talking about 100% silver tier. Not saying condi thief isn’t effective but wiping whole teams? Much hyperbole very stronk.

I donno what game you've been playing lately. But ive seen mid getting wiped by condi thieves constantly. A d/d thief can do it. Also, short bow #4 can easily wipe out a group of enemies. If you don't believe me... I suggest trying it out for yourself. There is a reason why condi thieves are everywhere. And there is a reason why all the pvp posts lately are of sad pandas crying about condi thieves.

EU/NA? Rank?

I’m queuing NA platinum as a hybrid P/D DE and I’m not seeing them wiping people in mid.

Like I said before: If you have any doubts, I suggest playing condi d/d for yourself and im willing to bet more often then not you will have firm control of mid when they need you there. Just test it out and you will see :)

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For open world and personal story I use my WvW roaming DE rifle build, it has decent damage, doesn't have any issues surviving because of the range and can solo many things comfortably. I'm not a fan of the daredevil rework but staff is still very effective in fractals. Can't say I PvP much but I'd probably use core S/D there, in WvW I die fast if I mess up but I have a good chance at taking almost anything down 1v1 if I play well, which honestly is the kind of balance I like.

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@Tharrkar.5692 said:~snip~

Well, you're not wrong. I would never bring my Thief (or Mesmer) in any instanced game mode. It's not fair for the rest of my team to bring a liability profession. I love my Thieves, but I know their limitation. Besides, why work so hard in playing Thief when I can easily play my Necro? Or Guardian?

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Uh thief is rather common in PvP. Core Sword+ dagger in particular. There's also condi thieves as well and meme-level deadeyes with rifles.

In WVW daredevils with staves are used to finish downed as well as for the 0 recharge poison fields on shortbow. It just happens that the larger the group you're facing the less likely it is to be effective at the core group, picking off sides/people off tag is more effective.

In PVE, not really sure since I don't use my thief for PVE other than for collecting chests and occasionally map completing new Living Story maps.

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Well, you're not wrong. I would never bring my Thief (or Mesmer) in any instanced game mode. It's not fair for the rest of my team to bring a liability profession. I love my Thieves, but I know their limitation. Besides, why work so hard in playing Thief when I can easily play my Necro? Or Guardian?

Mesmer (Mirage or chrono) is meta in many Raids and so is thief. necro however is The worst class for instanced content.

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@rowdy.5107 said:Jugglemonkey I fear people like you in wvw lol.

If anybody has any doubts on how dangerous a condi thief is. Please don't take my word on what they can do on it. I just challenge anybody to play d/d or s/d condi thief and they will see for themselves how deadly they are.

I still think p/d condition superior to both. SB can do also do very well.

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Well, you're not wrong. I would never bring my Thief (or Mesmer) in any instanced game mode. It's not fair for the rest of my team to bring a liability profession. I love my Thieves, but I know their limitation. Besides, why work so hard in playing Thief when I can easily play my Necro? Or Guardian?

Mesmer (Mirage or chrono) is meta in many Raids and so is thief. necro however is The worst class for instanced content.

I bring my Necro in PvP and Guardian in PvE instances. Mesmer might be meta, but not all players can play a meta build/profession. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Thief and Mesmer are liabilities.

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PVE:In pve thief is easily the weakest class getting oneshot by almost everything very hard to level especially for beginners and honestly, not even needed anymore.When comparing thief to other classes thief just lacks in anything.

If you really think this is true I'm afraid it's a personal skill problem and honestly given this I don't think your proposals have that much value considering you don't really know how to play the class at all.

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@"Arheundel.6451" said:Youd' need to give up your ability to run away or have it severely reduced..if you're asking to be on "par" with other professions apparently, thief was able in the past to duel anything and run away from anything uncotested if things didn't go its way, quickly collect ini and go back in full HP/burst...while other professions were left hapless.Balance goes both way..not only your way

Things like 1200 range infiltrator strike should be reduced to 600, shortbow 5 same treatment...no more cover 3/4 of the map with 2x shortbow 5 and get out of harm way, if you want staying power...you can't have huge reset ability

Anet doesn't hate thief..they should have sticked with the assassin model from GW1...instead than copy/paste the typical broken stealth burst from other failed MMOs

I don't agree with what you said and I totally agree with it. Thieves in general lack stability, proper condi cleanse and any means of tanking (not evading, tanking) dmg even for a short time except blinds etc. Even in the past thief was not "that" strong in my opinion but now, especially in wvw there are mounts. So if you even go out of combat for a second it means your enemy will hop onto his mount and ride into the sunset.

Power creep made thief irrelevant without gimmicky builds. But the stealth mechanic is bad, and in my opinion gw2 was never designed to handle a stealth class . Thus a class mechanic that only works well with stealth is still hurting the game. Maybe Thief shouldve had something like an opening strike and a bonuses to attacking from behind or sides only, I am not sure. Have been playing thief for a long time and I dont remember even a minute without people complaining about it and asking for nerfs. It is truly tiring. But for me this poor mans wow rogue mentality with second hand stealth (in a game that was designed for long stealth durations) seems to be only aggrevating everyone. But that is how anet works. It means they will either bring a total chaotic balance / rework patch or a new elite to cover all these problems. That is my 2 cents anyway.

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@"alain.1659" said:but now, especially in wvw there are mounts.

Power creep made thief irrelevant without gimmicky builds. But the stealth mechanic is bad, and in my opinion gw2 was never designed to handle a stealth class . Thus a class mechanic that only works well with stealth is still hurting the game.

This. As someone who hadn't played WvW in QUITE a while, I went back to play a bit recently. EVERYBODY was running around on mounts. As a Thief who is used to outrunning everyone, I got left behind in the dust. So I started on my quest to finally get the mount also. Dealing with terrible timing (no commanders or zergs taking keeps whenever I was online), it was quite frustrating being so slow compared to nearly every enemy and ally.

Personally, I don't like Anet's decision to put mounts into WvW... at least like how they did. WvW used to be inclusive, upscaling low level players to level 80. That's actually how I got most of my experience when I was a new player. If the HoT changes to WvW weren't enough, now, you are required to both own PoF AND go through achievement collections just to gain equal footing in WvW. I can understand gliding, because it's not THAT necessary, but mounts are basically required. But I digress...

Anyway, mounts have dealt a severe blow to Thieves. Not only are they faster than Thieves, making ambushes difficult to prepare and execute, but their health and CC immunities have made Thief opening bursts rather pointless. So even if a Thief can actually manage to dismount an enemy, the Thief has already given up their presence and location (no more surprise), and the Thief has just blown its resources before the fight even begins.

As for Stealth, also in WvW, the changes have made it very finicky. If you go anywhere in enemy territory, or even in friendly territory many times, you can easily get Revealed if you stay in Stealth for longer than 2 seconds. And if even if you're fortunate enough where there's nothing around that will automatically Reveal you, so many professions have been given abilities to Reveal you. If the Stealth Trap wasn't enough! Thieves can't even Reveal or see enemies that are in Stealth. Personally, I think one of the main problems with Stealth is that it's not exclusively a Thief mechanic. Too many other professions have it now... some that have more powerful bursts with no tell or warning whatsoever.

Maybe Thief shouldve had something like an opening strike and a bonuses to attacking from behind or sides only

This also. The Thief needs an Opening Strike mechanic for assassin-style play. I'm not saying to make it deal more damage in itself, but it should be sufficiently debilitating to the target so that it can tilt the rest of the fight to be more in favor of the Thief. The flanking bonuses should also exist for the general Thief. I'd actually say make Twin Fangs baseline (remove the health requirement, and just make both bonuses based on flanking), and replace it with an Opening Strike-style trait... making the Critical Strikes line more of an Assassin line.

Have been playing thief for a long time and I dont remember even a minute without people complaining about it and asking for nerfs. It is truly tiring. But for me this poor mans wow rogue mentality

If a Rogue doesn't cause people to complain, it's not a proper Rogue ;-)

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@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@"alain.1659" said:but now, especially in wvw there are mounts.

Power creep made thief irrelevant without gimmicky builds. But the stealth mechanic is bad, and in my opinion gw2 was never designed to handle a stealth class . Thus a class mechanic that only works well with stealth is still hurting the game.

This. As someone who hadn't played WvW in QUITE a while, I went back to play a bit recently. EVERYBODY was running around on mounts. As a Thief who is used to outrunning everyone, I got left behind in the dust. So I started on my quest to finally get the mount also. Dealing with terrible timing (no commanders or zergs taking keeps whenever I was online), it was quite frustrating being so slow compared to nearly every enemy and ally.

Personally, I don't like Anet's decision to put mounts into WvW... at least like how they did. WvW used to be inclusive, upscaling low level players to level 80. That's actually how I got most of my experience when I was a new player. If the HoT changes to WvW weren't enough, now, you are required to both own PoF AND go through achievement collections just to gain equal footing in WvW. I can understand gliding, because it's not THAT necessary, but mounts are basically required. But I digress...

Anyway, mounts have dealt a severe blow to Thieves. Not only are they faster than Thieves, making ambushes difficult to prepare and execute, but their health and CC immunities have made Thief opening bursts rather pointless. So even if a Thief can actually manage to dismount an enemy, the Thief has already given up their presence and location (no more surprise), and the Thief has just blown its resources before the fight even begins.

As for Stealth, also in WvW, the changes have made it very finicky. If you go anywhere in enemy territory, or even in friendly territory many times, you can easily get Revealed if you stay in Stealth for longer than 2 seconds. And if even if you're fortunate enough where there's nothing around that will automatically Reveal you, so many professions have been given abilities to Reveal you. If the Stealth Trap wasn't enough! Thieves can't even Reveal or see enemies that are in Stealth. Personally, I think one of the main problems with Stealth is that it's not exclusively a Thief mechanic. Too many other professions have it now... some that have more powerful bursts with no tell or warning whatsoever.

Maybe Thief shouldve had something like an opening strike and a bonuses to attacking from behind or sides only

This also. The Thief needs an Opening Strike mechanic for assassin-style play. I'm not saying to make it deal more damage in itself, but it should be sufficiently debilitating to the target so that it can tilt the rest of the fight to be more in favor of the Thief. The flanking bonuses should also exist for the general Thief. I'd actually say make
baseline (remove the health requirement, and just make both bonuses based on flanking), and replace it with an Opening Strike-style trait... making the Critical Strikes line more of an Assassin line.

Have been playing thief for a long time and I dont remember even a minute without people complaining about it and asking for nerfs. It is truly tiring. But for me this poor mans wow rogue mentality

If a Rogue doesn't cause people to complain, it's not a proper Rogue ;-)

This reminds me of the whole Alterac Valley rant from World of Rougecraft. .......and I'm not sure if thats intentional or not.

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You haven't seen me finishing T4 fractals for my dead party.Thief is one of the best classes if you want to survive. Strong healing, access to 3 dodges, vigor, perma 25 might, blinds, stealth, evades. Deadeye doesn't need a support. You don't need Alac, quickness. You have perma protection, 25x might, vigor, fury, swiftness.First learn how to play. If you can't, just return to your minionmaster.

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@"Antycypator.9874" said:You haven't seen me finishing T4 fractals for my dead party.Thief is one of the best classes if you want to survive. Strong healing, access to 3 dodges, vigor, perma 25 might, blinds, stealth, evades. Deadeye doesn't need a support. You don't need Alac, quickness. You have perma protection, 25x might, vigor, fury, swiftness.First learn how to play. If you can't, just return to your minionmaster.

I'm guessing you're running Diviner gear or something?

Tbh you're not wrong, thief is great in PvE if you build it right. The main reason I die there is in new instances where it's unclear what I'm supposed to be doing, or I can't see the visual prompts on the other side of balthazar to aurene because everything is a sea of AoE and "aurene wants you to help her" is not exactly a clear hint lol. That one annoyed me.

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@"Antycypator.9874" said:You haven't seen me finishing T4 fractals for my dead party.Thief is one of the best classes if you want to survive. Strong healing, access to 3 dodges, vigor, perma 25 might, blinds, stealth, evades. Deadeye doesn't need a support. You don't need Alac, quickness. You have perma protection, 25x might, vigor, fury, swiftness.First learn how to play. If you can't, just return to your minionmaster.

I'm guessing you're running Diviner gear or something?

Tbh you're not wrong, thief is great in PvE if you build it right. The main reason I die there is in new instances where it's unclear what I'm supposed to be doing, or I can't see the visual prompts on the other side of balthazar to aurene because everything is a sea of AoE and "aurene wants you to help her" is not exactly a clear hint lol. That one annoyed me.

Currently I'm running with Marauder's gear, because I don't play fractals anymore, so my thief is more like "for fun in open world". Optimal rifle build for deadeye grants you a set of boons every time you reach 7 malice and refreshes your initiviative, so you can keep your boons as long as you're doing your simple rotation.I understand problems with surviving caused by low health pool, but surviving mostly comes with timing and dodges. This is why daredevil has 3 dodges and good source of endurance regeneration. There is no class that can just face-tank everything. People can play sword weaver (which is SUPER squishy) and they can do everything. I agree thief is a "high-risk" class, but everything can be learned and mastered to be really good. Just keep in mind that some professions are easier than other. One of them is Necro. And yes, I play power necromancer (reaper) and it's much easier to survive than thief. Less buttons to smash.

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