Please Anet talk us about the Death Magic Rework

[ZDragon.3046]

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.

Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.

While true scourage wouldn't take death magic, Reaper might and paired with "Rise!" It could be good. I don't feel like its a big deal its only something that takes place if you have the trait-line active which even if it does get changed not everyone will use it. Don't like it, don't use it is the name of this game and if you don't like a change you switch classes. A-net doesn't care, they are like digital honey badgers....

The only way reaper will take death magic is if death magic basically adds greatly to sustain in exchange for the loss of damage.

Right now reaper sustains by having kinda threatening ish damage in shroud. A slow reaper with low damage is not a threat right now in the meta. You just run right over it or ignore it.

The some ideal things death magic needs in exchange for the damage the user looses by taking itGood condi clear, conversion, or xfer for damaging condies onlyGrandmaster healing in shroud needs to be addressed in death magic. Either make the grand master good or make the grand master allow other traits that normally do not heal in shroud work so that they do heal in shroud.Some minion traits need to be moved baseline (the one for more hp and damage on the minions should be baseline)

Possibly flop some traits around from other lines that are better fitting in a defensive line (foot in the grave for example) would be a good master or grand master minor for death magic line (for its current level of strength has no chance of competing in its current state as a grand master option in soul reaping)

IF anet pulls a 1 step forward and 2 steps back with death magic by cutting base line things and forcing them into this line then its going to make necro even more of a mess. This is something they really should be looking to get feedback on.

If ele can have dmg in sustain why can-t we have some sustain without sacrificing too much dmg? seems only fair I know eles in pve need that sustain to survive because they are very squishy but we need some sustain to be able to continue to do dmg and having to sacrifice a lot of dmg to be sustainable isn't a viable choice.

Because ele's sustain comes from different sources and anet firmly and constantly doesn ot believe necromancer should have access to similar features despite it being a light armor magic themed class. One must also consider Ele's much lower base hp pool.

To go into more detail though

Most of ele's sustain comes fromEvadesBe it natural evades with vigor uptime or evades like weavers twist of fate ele has access to damage avoidance through evades which is a form of sustain.Blocks/reflectsWhile they dont have many of these they do have a few noticeable options (Arcane shielding, Magnetic Aura, Wind projectile destruction) to name a fewBOONSEle is just packed to the brim full of boons what it lacks in hp it makes up for in boons which can questionable be more vauable than having a higher base hp as boons provide extra critical chance, increased damage, increased dodging potential (vigor), as well as many other things.

Lastly Sustain is kind of built into ele by default through water attune, No matter what weapon you look at water is rarely damaging element and almost every weapon in water attune provides some kind of healing skill or spell. In some cases multiple healing skills or spells which also have evades combined into them.

NecroNecromancer is a bit different. Necros damage is there but it is slightly below par on the pvp and pve side. Their damage also heavily depends on their shroud which is kind of ok.... but its also suppose to double as a defensive tool that makes up for all those things other light armored professions have for defensive tools and it just fails to do that at its base.pveAs a necromancer you have a higher chance of survivability in pve simply because you can take harder hits that other professions cant. How ever this is not a valued asset in most cases as most people dont plan end game content with the idea of (the necro will still be standing and can save the day) most people who make a wide spread mistake will just say to gg and start over which voids the the sustainability of necromancer being able to take a harder hit. Should your party or squad continue after a critical mistake (for example you lose one of your dps'ers) This will also be the only time necro really appears to out perform other classes is if well they die early on or go down constantly where as you might not as a necromancer because you can take a punch or two.pvpIn pvp necromancers sustain depends on its offensive pressure because they have very no or lesser kit tools that dont stand up to boon sustain, blocks, and evades. They dont have good resistance to cc lock down, dont have the quickest burst damage, are not very mobile and dont have tools that provide true damage avoidance such as evades, invulns, and reflects. They do have projectile destruction via CPC but thats a lesser tool and its not super useful in pvp where you have to give up things like spectral walk / armor, or other skills that have far more critical value for the lesser sustain they even provide (other break stuns or condi clear etc.)GeneralTo be frank no matter what they do to death magic even if they do nothing but buff it and leave necromancers base kit alone the way the other trait lines fall its going to be a pretty rough damage loss if you opt to take death magic. If anet still encourages the idea of necromancers having no hard defenses then people wont use it because having a bit more toughness in the current burst meta wont matter. If you still get limited dodges where people can just chain cc you to death it wont matter.

To be honest with you either way its probably a bust for any form of necro to use death magic because they currently depend more on offensive pressure for sustain than defensive tools. IF you lower your damage and people are quick to notice they will still run circles around and right over you and you will just feel like you are less effective.

It will be interesting to see if they actually rework it or just tap like 2-3 traits with a small QoL that makes literally no difference between the previous version and call it "Fixed" for another 5 years. Death magic needs a near miracle wishlist of a rework to be considered viable and if it does become viable people will be quick to voice their opinions on it to make it unviable.

Death magic is a small problem in the entire necromancer kit its a good spot to start by giving necro a true defensive line that actually works and feels like its doing something when you equip it. How ever core necro still has so many more issues that need to be fixed which will then extend to the elite specs bringing them up to par with other professions as well. This is not easy to balance for all game modes though.

[Axl.8924]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.

Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.

While true scourage wouldn't take death magic, Reaper might and paired with "Rise!" It could be good. I don't feel like its a big deal its only something that takes place if you have the trait-line active which even if it does get changed not everyone will use it. Don't like it, don't use it is the name of this game and if you don't like a change you switch classes. A-net doesn't care, they are like digital honey badgers....

The only way reaper will take death magic is if death magic basically adds greatly to sustain in exchange for the loss of damage.

Right now reaper sustains by having kinda threatening ish damage in shroud. A slow reaper with low damage is not a threat right now in the meta. You just run right over it or ignore it.

The some ideal things death magic needs in exchange for the damage the user looses by taking itGood condi clear, conversion, or xfer for damaging condies onlyGrandmaster healing in shroud needs to be addressed in death magic. Either make the grand master good or make the grand master allow other traits that normally do not heal in shroud work so that they do heal in shroud.Some minion traits need to be moved baseline (the one for more hp and damage on the minions should be baseline)

Possibly flop some traits around from other lines that are better fitting in a defensive line (foot in the grave for example) would be a good master or grand master minor for death magic line (for its current level of strength has no chance of competing in its current state as a grand master option in soul reaping)

IF anet pulls a 1 step forward and 2 steps back with death magic by cutting base line things and forcing them into this line then its going to make necro even more of a mess. This is something they really should be looking to get feedback on.

If ele can have dmg in sustain why can-t we have some sustain without sacrificing too much dmg? seems only fair I know eles in pve need that sustain to survive because they are very squishy but we need some sustain to be able to continue to do dmg and having to sacrifice a lot of dmg to be sustainable isn't a viable choice.

Because ele's sustain comes from different sources and anet firmly and constantly doesn ot believe necromancer should have access to similar features despite it being a light armor magic themed class. One must also consider Ele's much lower base hp pool.

To go into more detail though

Most of ele's sustain comes from

Evades

Be it natural evades with vigor uptime or evades like weavers twist of fate ele has access to damage avoidance through evades which is a form of sustain.

Blocks/reflects

While they dont have many of these they do have a few noticeable options (Arcane shielding, Magnetic Aura, Wind projectile destruction) to name a few

BOONS

Ele is just packed to the brim full of boons what it lacks in hp it makes up for in boons which can questionable be more vauable than having a higher base hp as boons provide extra critical chance, increased damage, increased dodging potential (vigor), as well as many other things.

Lastly Sustain is kind of built into ele by default through water attune, No matter what weapon you look at water is rarely damaging element and almost every weapon in water attune provides some kind of healing skill or spell. In some cases multiple healing skills or spells which also have evades combined into them.

Necro

Necromancer is a bit different. Necros damage is there but it is slightly below par on the pvp and pve side. Their damage also heavily depends on their shroud which is kind of ok.... but its also suppose to double as a defensive tool that makes up for all those things other light armored professions have for defensive tools and it just fails to do that at its base.

pve

As a necromancer you have a higher chance of survivability in pve simply because you can take harder hits that other professions cant. How ever this is not a valued asset in most cases as most people dont plan end game content with the idea of (the necro will still be standing and can save the day) most people who make a wide spread mistake will just say to gg and start over which voids the the sustainability of necromancer being able to take a harder hit. Should your party or squad continue after a critical mistake (for example you lose one of your dps'ers) This will also be the only time necro really appears to out perform other classes is if well they die early on or go down constantly where as you might not as a necromancer because you can take a punch or two.

pvp

In pvp necromancers sustain depends on its offensive pressure because they have very no or lesser kit tools that dont stand up to boon sustain, blocks, and evades. They dont have good resistance to cc lock down, dont have the quickest burst damage, are not very mobile and dont have tools that provide true damage avoidance such as evades, invulns, and reflects. They do have projectile destruction via CPC but thats a lesser tool and its not super useful in pvp where you have to give up things like spectral walk / armor, or other skills that have far more critical value for the lesser sustain they even provide (other break stuns or condi clear etc.)

General

To be frank no matter what they do to death magic even if they do nothing but buff it and leave necromancers base kit alone the way the other trait lines fall its going to be a pretty rough damage loss if you opt to take death magic. If anet still encourages the idea of necromancers having no hard defenses then people wont use it because having a bit more toughness in the current burst meta wont matter. If you still get limited dodges where people can just chain cc you to death it wont matter.

To be honest with you either way its probably a bust for any form of necro to use death magic because they currently depend more on offensive pressure for sustain than defensive tools. IF you lower your damage and people are quick to notice they will still run circles around and right over you and you will just feel like you are less effective.

It will be interesting to see if they actually rework it or just tap like 2-3 traits with a small QoL that makes literally no difference between the previous version and call it "Fixed" for another 5 years. Death magic needs a near miracle wishlist of a rework to be considered viable and if it does become viable people will be quick to voice their opinions on it to make it unviable.

Death magic is a small problem in the entire necromancer kit its a good spot to start by giving necro a true defensive line that actually works and feels like its doing something when you equip it. How ever core necro still has so many more issues that need to be fixed which will then extend to the elite specs bringing them up to par with other professions as well. This is not easy to balance for all game modes though.

I was wondering actually if there was a way lets say to make it so the dps loss isn't too extreme because every class has at least some way or form to sustain although i don't think it will be the same kind, especially with shroud. We the fans have to decide if we are to use shroud as dps and or sacrifice dps because we cannot have shroud be a decent tool for survival and heavy dps without it being extremely overpowered, which is why every survival tool has to be outside shroud. Can you just imagine reaper being neigh invincible while dealing the damage it is now? oh boy will that not go too well. Maybe they can combine dps and sustain trait to death magic somehow to make the pets deal more dps and help us sustain more or something? so the dps loss is some but not too massive. my problem is in pve as you said dps loss is a big deal but i think also it might not go so well.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.

Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.

While true scourage wouldn't take death magic, Reaper might and paired with "Rise!" It could be good. I don't feel like its a big deal its only something that takes place if you have the trait-line active which even if it does get changed not everyone will use it. Don't like it, don't use it is the name of this game and if you don't like a change you switch classes. A-net doesn't care, they are like digital honey badgers....

The only way reaper will take death magic is if death magic basically adds greatly to sustain in exchange for the loss of damage.

Right now reaper sustains by having kinda threatening ish damage in shroud. A slow reaper with low damage is not a threat right now in the meta. You just run right over it or ignore it.

The some ideal things death magic needs in exchange for the damage the user looses by taking itGood condi clear, conversion, or xfer for damaging condies onlyGrandmaster healing in shroud needs to be addressed in death magic. Either make the grand master good or make the grand master allow other traits that normally do not heal in shroud work so that they do heal in shroud.Some minion traits need to be moved baseline (the one for more hp and damage on the minions should be baseline)

Possibly flop some traits around from other lines that are better fitting in a defensive line (foot in the grave for example) would be a good master or grand master minor for death magic line (for its current level of strength has no chance of competing in its current state as a grand master option in soul reaping)

IF anet pulls a 1 step forward and 2 steps back with death magic by cutting base line things and forcing them into this line then its going to make necro even more of a mess. This is something they really should be looking to get feedback on.

If ele can have dmg in sustain why can-t we have some sustain without sacrificing too much dmg? seems only fair I know eles in pve need that sustain to survive because they are very squishy but we need some sustain to be able to continue to do dmg and having to sacrifice a lot of dmg to be sustainable isn't a viable choice.

Because ele's sustain comes from different sources and anet firmly and constantly doesn ot believe necromancer should have access to similar features despite it being a light armor magic themed class. One must also consider Ele's much lower base hp pool.

To go into more detail though

Most of ele's sustain comes from

Evades

Be it natural evades with vigor uptime or evades like weavers twist of fate ele has access to damage avoidance through evades which is a form of sustain.

Blocks/reflects

While they dont have many of these they do have a few noticeable options (Arcane shielding, Magnetic Aura, Wind projectile destruction) to name a few

BOONS

Ele is just packed to the brim full of boons what it lacks in hp it makes up for in boons which can questionable be more vauable than having a higher base hp as boons provide extra critical chance, increased damage, increased dodging potential (vigor), as well as many other things.

Lastly Sustain is kind of built into ele by default through water attune, No matter what weapon you look at water is rarely damaging element and almost every weapon in water attune provides some kind of healing skill or spell. In some cases multiple healing skills or spells which also have evades combined into them.

Necro

Necromancer is a bit different. Necros damage is there but it is slightly below par on the pvp and pve side. Their damage also heavily depends on their shroud which is kind of ok.... but its also suppose to double as a defensive tool that makes up for all those things other light armored professions have for defensive tools and it just fails to do that at its base.

pve

As a necromancer you have a higher chance of survivability in pve simply because you can take harder hits that other professions cant. How ever this is not a valued asset in most cases as most people dont plan end game content with the idea of (the necro will still be standing and can save the day) most people who make a wide spread mistake will just say to gg and start over which voids the the sustainability of necromancer being able to take a harder hit. Should your party or squad continue after a critical mistake (for example you lose one of your dps'ers) This will also be the only time necro really appears to out perform other classes is if well they die early on or go down constantly where as you might not as a necromancer because you can take a punch or two.

pvp

In pvp necromancers sustain depends on its offensive pressure because they have very no or lesser kit tools that dont stand up to boon sustain, blocks, and evades. They dont have good resistance to cc lock down, dont have the quickest burst damage, are not very mobile and dont have tools that provide true damage avoidance such as evades, invulns, and reflects. They do have projectile destruction via CPC but thats a lesser tool and its not super useful in pvp where you have to give up things like spectral walk / armor, or other skills that have far more critical value for the lesser sustain they even provide (other break stuns or condi clear etc.)

General

To be frank no matter what they do to death magic even if they do nothing but buff it and leave necromancers base kit alone the way the other trait lines fall its going to be a pretty rough damage loss if you opt to take death magic. If anet still encourages the idea of necromancers having no hard defenses then people wont use it because having a bit more toughness in the current burst meta wont matter. If you still get limited dodges where people can just chain cc you to death it wont matter.

To be honest with you either way its probably a bust for any form of necro to use death magic because they currently depend more on offensive pressure for sustain than defensive tools. IF you lower your damage and people are quick to notice they will still run circles around and right over you and you will just feel like you are less effective.

It will be interesting to see if they actually rework it or just tap like 2-3 traits with a small QoL that makes literally no difference between the previous version and call it "Fixed" for another 5 years. Death magic needs a near miracle wishlist of a rework to be considered viable and if it does become viable people will be quick to voice their opinions on it to make it unviable.

Death magic is a small problem in the entire necromancer kit its a good spot to start by giving necro a true defensive line that actually works and feels like its doing something when you equip it. How ever core necro still has so many more issues that need to be fixed which will then extend to the elite specs bringing them up to par with other professions as well. This is not easy to balance for all game modes though.

I was wondering actually if there was a way lets say to make it so the dps loss isn't too extreme because every class has at least some way or form to sustain although i don't think it will be the same kind, especially with shroud. We the fans have to decide if we are to use shroud as dps and or sacrifice dps because we cannot have shroud be a decent tool for survival and heavy dps without it being extremely overpowered, which is why every survival tool has to be outside shroud. Can you just imagine reaper being neigh invincible while dealing the damage it is now? oh boy will that not go too well. Maybe they can combine dps and sustain trait to death magic somehow to make the pets deal more dps and help us sustain more or something? so the dps loss is some but not too massive. my problem is in pve as you said dps loss is a big deal but i think also it might not go so well.

There are several professions at the moment who have the power or potential to be invulnerable for a short time while still dealing pretty high dps granted the time frame is usually only a few seconds but still.Its not like the idea is new its just the idea would be limited to 4-5 seconds at most

Necros sustain will like always be tied to its offensive pressure in some way which can be ok if the tools for the job are proper. That is where the problem comes in as alot of kit tools are just subpar and outdated.

Anet already did the combo of damage + sustain in a trait (soul eater) and it was nerfed because of how strong it was in pve. According to them it "Provided too much sustain" which was partly true depending on the situation the necromancer was in.

Sadly the reason why taking death-magic will 100% always be a damage loss is because regardless if you go power or condi it means you are required to run Spite or Curses thats 1 trait line down if you give up spite or curses you will take a dps loss.Now you have the option to take death magic or give up soul reaping if you give up soul reaping regardless of if you go power or condi its a dps loss due to soul eater, death perception, dhuumsfire, etc. Giving up soul reaping is a dps lossOr you could keep Soul reaping and your choice of spite or curses. In this case if you take death magic as your 3rd line you gave up reaper and scourge which is also a dps loss because core is not even close to competing either one of the elites.

So death magic ideally needs to be something magical for people to want to use it because no matter where you swap it in the offensive pressure of necomancer is going to take a hit. It needs to actually feel like it helps you survive burst, help reduce the chain cc tact that people often take against necro, and actually provide away to respectfully heal in shroud at the very least.