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About the Charr victim complex, and Anet's hatred for Ascalon


witcher.3197

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@"Kalavier.1097" said:This prologue showed us loud and clear that the Charr are diverse, and in this area, the groups that hate humans are the loud ones. In Ascalon, it's more of the Charr who don't mind humanity/peace. Hell, in some cases in Grothmar are Charr who are neutral/okay with humans but are basically being bullied into agreement. Outside of the Ooze pit there are two charr who talk about finding a human inside and tossing him out. One talks about how he could've gotten seriously hurt. The other goes about how humans in general should be hurt/defeated/messed up. The first? "Um... yeah. Yes sir."

But there's also an Ash superior chewing out her subordinate for being bigoted, so the pressure cuts both ways.

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  • ArenaNet Staff

I love seeing these sorts of conversations pop up on the forums! :3

Bangar is pretty divisive, even here in the writers' room. When we sat down and started the storybreaking process for Icebrood Saga, it was really important to us that our antagonist be the hero of his own narrative. A villain is only as good as their motivation--and if Bangar doesn't feel that heat, that fire, that conviction, then players aren't gonna buy it either.

One of my favorite examples in film is Mayor Vaughn from Jaws. You guys know the story: Man-eating shark terrorizes a small town on Long Island during the height of summer. Local bureaucrats refuse to close the beach, so a trio of unlikely heroes decides to hunt the shark down before it can kill again.

From the mayor's perspective, he is protecting the town. If the beaches close or people are afraid to swim, they're going to lose the "summer dollars" that sustain the community during the rest of the year when it isn't tourist season. He's a great antagonist -- really underrated, actually -- because every choice he makes is consistent with his internal compass. And it's infuriating.

Bangar's similar in a lot of ways. He was raised on stories about humans skinning charr and using their fur and horns as armor, and has spent almost all his adult life in direct opposition to them. He's lost people he cares about -- members of his warband, good soldiers, friends -- to that conflict. When you live and breathe that narrative for fifty-odd years, it's very difficult to shake free of. The Ebonhawke Treaty is still a recent development, and not something he was ever on board with. As Smodur says, the only reason he agreed was to prevent additional conflict between the legions. He's been biding his time, playing along, waiting for the right moment to make his move.

Now the Pact appears to have their very own Elder Dragon at their command. Bangar's charr. He's military-minded to begin with. The folks who have compared this to an arms race are exactly right. If there's any way for him to subjugate and/or ally with an Elder Dragon, he's going to try so he can protect his people via mutually assured destruction. Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

That leaves Jormag. And if the Sons of Svanir claim to have a positive relationship with Jormag, well...

Some people have correctly surmised that Jormag is addressing Bangar (not the player) in the trailer. And it isn't a coincidence that one of the first images we see is a charr and her cub reduced to ash while Grothmar Valley burns around them.

It's so, so wonderful to see everyone enjoying the prologue and picking up on all the little things we snuck in. We've been working hard to take a more nuanced approach to our world-building and character development with Icebrood Saga. Glad you're enjoying it so far!

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@Julia Nardin.9824 said:Now the Pact appears to have their very own Elder Dragon at their command. Bangar's charr. He's military-minded to begin with. The folks who have compared this to an arms race are exactly right. If there's any way for him to subjugate and/or ally with an Elder Dragon, he's going to try so he can protect his people via mutually assured destruction. Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

Sounds suspiciously like the Charr trying to get their own gods for military advantage, which didn't go so well. Enough so that even historically-minded characters in-game should be able to make the connection.

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@perilisk.1874 said:

@"Kalavier.1097" said:This prologue showed us loud and clear that the Charr are diverse, and in this area, the groups that hate humans are the loud ones. In Ascalon, it's more of the Charr who don't mind humanity/peace. Hell, in some cases in Grothmar are Charr who are neutral/okay with humans but are basically being bullied into agreement. Outside of the Ooze pit there are two charr who talk about finding a human inside and tossing him out. One talks about how he could've gotten seriously hurt. The other goes about how humans in general should be hurt/defeated/messed up. The first? "Um... yeah. Yes sir."

But there's also an Ash superior chewing out her subordinate for being bigoted, so the pressure cuts both ways.

Indeed, it's wonderful. You can even find three different charr (and a human) assumably talking about the same event. An Iron legion charr regretting not being with the human to defend him (and asking if he can identify his assaulter), and over at the brig two blood legion talking about reporting their warband. "You weren't forced to come, you could have stayed and gotten your punches in."

That blood legion soldier said one thing I've said concerning the treaty for a long time. "Loyalty to Warband is important, but Legion comes before warband."

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@"Julia Nardin.9824" said:I love seeing these sorts of conversations pop up on the forums! :3

Bangar is pretty divisive, even here in the writers' room. When we sat down and started the storybreaking process for Icebrood Saga, it was really important to us that our antagonist be the hero of his own narrative. A villain is only as good as their motivation--and if Bangar doesn't feel that heat, that fire, that conviction, then players aren't gonna buy it either.

One of my favorite examples in film is Mayor Vaughn from Jaws. You guys know the story: Man-eating shark terrorizes a small town on Long Island during the height of summer. Local bureaucrats refuse to close the beach, so a trio of unlikely heroes decides to hunt the shark down before it can kill again.

From the mayor's perspective, he is protecting the town. If the beaches close or people are afraid to swim, they're going to lose the "summer dollars" that sustain the community during the rest of the year when it isn't tourist season. He's a great antagonist -- really underrated, actually -- because every choice he makes is consistent with his internal compass. And it's infuriating.

Bangar's similar in a lot of ways. He was raised on stories about humans skinning charr and using their fur and horns as armor, and has spent almost all his adult life in direct opposition to them. He's lost people he cares about -- members of his warband, good soldiers, friends -- to that conflict. When you live and breathe that narrative for fifty-odd years, it's very difficult to shake free of. The Ebonhawke Treaty is still a recent development, and not something he was ever on board with. As Smodur says, the only reason he agreed was to prevent additional conflict between the legions. He's been biding his time, playing along, waiting for the right moment to make his move.

Now the Pact appears to have their very own Elder Dragon at their command. Bangar's charr. He's military-minded to begin with. The folks who have compared this to an arms race are exactly right. If there's any way for him to subjugate and/or ally with an Elder Dragon, he's going to try so he can protect his people via mutually assured destruction. Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

That leaves Jormag. And if the Sons of Svanir claim to have a positive relationship with Jormag, well...

Some people have correctly surmised that Jormag is addressing Bangar (not the player) in the trailer. And it isn't a coincidence that one of the first images we see is a charr and her cub reduced to ash while Grothmar Valley burns around them.

It's so, so wonderful to see everyone enjoying the prologue and picking up on all the little things we snuck in. We've been working hard to take a more nuanced approach to our world-building and character development with Icebrood Saga. Glad you're enjoying it so far!

I certainly enjoyed it quite a bit as a Guild Wars 1 player. I'v always had my own hard stance on the Charr and how I disagree with how they operate, but I can kind of sympathize with Bangar even if by and large I think his, and the Blood Legions, estimation of history is incorrect. Like I said earlier in the thread he's an antagonist I pity, rather then hate, and i'm interested to see where he goes because that's a character quality that makes him more interesting then even Joko to me. That's partially because as horrific as Joko could be, he doesn't come off quite as real as Bangar Ruinbringer, he's very much a character who as a person who studied a lot of history in their free times lines up with several different historical examples. A comparison that only gets stronger wandering around the prologue in the second act and listening to different bits of dialogue.

I'm semi-surprised that the trailer is talking to Bangar though. To me it was always talking to RYTLOCK given the focus he's had on his cubs, that reveals something rather interesting about Bangars personality...it also makes me wonder about Rytlock and Bangars past even more.

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@Loesh.4697 said:I'm semi-surprised that the trailer is talking to Bangar though. To me it was always talking to RYTLOCK given the focus he's had on his cubs, that reveals something rather interesting about Bangars personality...it also makes me wonder about Rytlock and Bangars past even more.

Well, if what was rumored is true (that Rytlock is Bangar's child, and thus Ryland is Bangar's grandson)...

I like how Rytlock starts wondering about his cubs more during his requiem story, but then we learn from the Primus that plenty of Charr do stop by to check on their children's progress, even though few actually admit it.

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O man....I hope the charr don't align them self's with dark powers like the searing days and slaughter the humans again.

If they do maybe the Norn will help us this time instead if being traitors and allowing charr free rain to walk there territory.

The charr need to leave the lands they invaded/stole and return them to human control. They need to stop slaughtering the ansestral ghost of the ascalonian people and further destroying the once beautiful lands they ruined. There can be NO PEACE otherwise.

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@Kalavier.1097 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:I'm semi-surprised that the trailer is talking to Bangar though. To me it was always talking to RYTLOCK given the focus he's had on his cubs, that reveals something rather interesting about Bangars personality...it also makes me wonder about Rytlock and Bangars past even more.

Well, if what was rumored is true (that Rytlock is Bangar's child, and thus Ryland is Bangar's grandson)...

I like how Rytlock starts wondering about his cubs more during his requiem story, but then we learn from the Primus that plenty of Charr do stop by to check on their children's progress, even though few actually admit it.

Certainly, but the way it was framed before was as a product of Rytlock being pulled out of his mental conditioning by his time with the other races. But if it's this common? well that says quite a bit about Charr society and how the winds of change are starting to alter peoples perceptions.

Overall this story was a lot more nuanced and character driven then Path of Fire(Which in turn I thought was a significant upgrade from HoT, and that in turn the core story.), so i'm quite pleased with how it's shaping up.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:victim complextalking about 'one blood' or 'one people'violent and militaristic

Am I the only one who gets a strong national socialist at 33 vibe from all this?

Don't forget radicalizing the youth. One of the interesting details I caught was that the teenage Charr you fight during the Lawn mini-game in Rusty Meadows? Also see him conspiring with the Renegades later on.

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@perilisk.1874 said:

@Julia Nardin.9824 said:Now the Pact appears to have their very own Elder Dragon at their command. Bangar's charr. He's military-minded to begin with. The folks who have compared this to an arms race are exactly right. If there's
any
way for him to subjugate and/or ally with an Elder Dragon, he's going to try so he can protect his people via mutually assured destruction. Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

Sounds suspiciously like the Charr trying to get their own gods for military advantage, which didn't go so well. Enough so that even historically-minded characters in-game should be able to make the connection.

Missed this earlier, but there is a difference between worshipping the item/thing as a god, and treating it as a military asset. The line can blur really easily, but it is there.

@Loesh.4697 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:I'm semi-surprised that the trailer is talking to Bangar though. To me it was always talking to RYTLOCK given the focus he's had on his cubs, that reveals something rather interesting about Bangars personality...it also makes me wonder about Rytlock and Bangars past even more.

Well, if what was rumored is true (that Rytlock is Bangar's child, and thus Ryland is Bangar's grandson)...

I like how Rytlock starts wondering about his cubs more during his requiem story, but then we learn from the Primus that plenty of Charr do stop by to check on their children's progress, even though few actually admit it.

Certainly, but the way it was framed before was as a product of Rytlock being pulled out of his mental conditioning by his time with the other races. But if it's this common? well that says quite a bit about Charr society and how the winds of change are starting to alter peoples perceptions.

Overall this story was a lot more nuanced and character driven then Path of Fire(Which in turn I thought was a significant upgrade from HoT, and that in turn the core story.), so i'm quite pleased with how it's shaping up.

I honestly wondered back during the requiem if Rytlock would end up kinda "changing" the way Charr look at their children. I'd say Rytlock's take may be framed more on a wanting to make the connection again, where most Charr never really connect to their children after they grow up IIRC.

It's one thing I love about how Anet has treated the Charr. They have an intense, violent past, but we can see them growing and evolving as a culture toward something better, something new.

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@"Julia Nardin.9824" said:I love seeing these sorts of conversations pop up on the forums! :3

Bangar is pretty divisive, even here in the writers' room. When we sat down and started the storybreaking process for Icebrood Saga, it was really important to us that our antagonist be the hero of his own narrative. A villain is only as good as their motivation--and if Bangar doesn't feel that heat, that fire, that conviction, then players aren't gonna buy it either.

One of my favorite examples in film is Mayor Vaughn from Jaws. You guys know the story: Man-eating shark terrorizes a small town on Long Island during the height of summer. Local bureaucrats refuse to close the beach, so a trio of unlikely heroes decides to hunt the shark down before it can kill again.

From the mayor's perspective, he is protecting the town. If the beaches close or people are afraid to swim, they're going to lose the "summer dollars" that sustain the community during the rest of the year when it isn't tourist season. He's a great antagonist -- really underrated, actually -- because every choice he makes is consistent with his internal compass. And it's infuriating.

Bangar's similar in a lot of ways. He was raised on stories about humans skinning charr and using their fur and horns as armor, and has spent almost all his adult life in direct opposition to them. He's lost people he cares about -- members of his warband, good soldiers, friends -- to that conflict. When you live and breathe that narrative for fifty-odd years, it's very difficult to shake free of. The Ebonhawke Treaty is still a recent development, and not something he was ever on board with. As Smodur says, the only reason he agreed was to prevent additional conflict between the legions. He's been biding his time, playing along, waiting for the right moment to make his move.

Now the Pact appears to have their very own Elder Dragon at their command. Bangar's charr. He's military-minded to begin with. The folks who have compared this to an arms race are exactly right. If there's any way for him to subjugate and/or ally with an Elder Dragon, he's going to try so he can protect his people via mutually assured destruction. Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

That leaves Jormag. And if the Sons of Svanir claim to have a positive relationship with Jormag, well...

Some people have correctly surmised that Jormag is addressing Bangar (not the player) in the trailer. And it isn't a coincidence that one of the first images we see is a charr and her cub reduced to ash while Grothmar Valley burns around them.

It's so, so wonderful to see everyone enjoying the prologue and picking up on all the little things we snuck in. We've been working hard to take a more nuanced approach to our world-building and character development with Icebrood Saga. Glad you're enjoying it so far!

My point here doesn't really add anything, but I gotta say it's super interesting when members of the narrative team talk about the story with players. And the community over on reddit seems to think the same thing.

Obviously there's an embargo on this for spoilers, but after a grace period... it's good to see.

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@Julia Nardin.9824 said:Some people have correctly surmised that Jormag is addressing Bangar (not the player) in the trailer. And it isn't a coincidence that one of the first images we see is a charr and her cub reduced to ash while Grothmar Valley burns around them.I find this bit most interesting, especially since I never noticed a cub or recognized that as Grothmaw Valley burning.

While we have your attention, do you mind clarifying the nature of the ruins for Cathedral of Flames and The Ooze Pits? In GW1, it was never truly clarified what those structures' origins were (CoF housed spoils from Ascalon, Ooze Pits had a Grenth mural, but all dungeons used a mixture of art assets, and only the Catacombs of Kathandrax was given origin lore: dwarven). When delving through, best guess I could gather was that Cathedral of Flames was charr-made (and, alongside Rragar's Menagerie, the only stone structures of theirs). For GW2, it seems you gave them Ascalonian ruins, but it's unclear if they were built there by humans (if so, why build underground?) or ruins taken by the charr (perhaps as part of the spoils of war), or it's just a case of "generic ruins" being used (wouldn't be the first time Ascalonian ruins got used as generic ruins)?

Also, does Blood Keep = Blood Citadel?

@perilisk.1874 said:

@Julia Nardin.9824 said:Now the Pact appears to have their very own Elder Dragon at their command. Bangar's charr. He's military-minded to begin with. The folks who have compared this to an arms race are exactly right. If there's
any
way for him to subjugate and/or ally with an Elder Dragon, he's going to try so he can protect his people via mutually assured destruction. Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

Sounds suspiciously like the Charr trying to get their own gods for military advantage, which didn't go so well. Enough so that even historically-minded characters in-game should be able to make the connection.

I think the main difference is that the Flame Legion followed the titans, while Bangar is intending to dominate or die trying. It may seem similar, but it actually is fairly different.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:While we have your attention, do you mind clarifying the nature of the ruins for Cathedral of Flames and The Ooze Pits? In GW1, it was never truly clarified what those structures' origins were (CoF housed spoils from Ascalon, Ooze Pits had a Grenth mural, but all dungeons used a mixture of art assets, and only the Catacombs of Kathandrax was given origin lore: dwarven). When delving through, best guess I could gather was that Cathedral of Flames was charr-made (and, alongside Rragar's Menagerie, the only stone structures of theirs). For GW2, it seems you gave them Ascalonian ruins, but it's unclear if they were built there by humans (if so, why build underground?) or ruins taken by the charr (perhaps as part of the spoils of war), or it's just a case of "generic ruins" being used (wouldn't be the first time Ascalonian ruins got used as generic ruins)?I actually asked about the lore on Cathedral of Flames just yesterday. Doesn't seem to be much of anything on it, and I really want to know why it's there, who made it, and what was it used for (outside of the weapon depository, I mean).

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:victim complextalking about 'one blood' or 'one people'violent and militaristic

the concert could have been any extremist right concert, just replace 'charr' with 'white people' or 'aryans'.

Am I the only one who gets a strong national socialist at 33 vibe from all this?

I think you were probably supposed to. That said, One Charr isn't inherently hostile or charr supremacist. The idea that the Charr legions should work together instead of at cross purposes isn't really that different from the Pact, until you consider how Bangar intends to utilize that unity. In some regards, then, Bangar is positioning himself as an anti-Commander, especially if it is Bangar that Jormag is addressing as "Champion" in the trailer. Perhaps the season will see him assembling an anti-Dragon's Watch as well?

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@runeblade.7514 said:

@Julia Nardin.9824 said:Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

I kinda wish he went after Primordus. The Charr once worshipped the Destroyers, now they mastered them.

Well, that didn't really last very long, on account of the Destroyers being more interested in body count than having worshipers or servants. Ironically, Jormag would have been right up their alley. He seems to corrupt the will to corrupt the body, and does so through a vaguely worship-like connection (hence, the Svanir are corrupted through treating it as one of the Spirits of Nature and communing with it or whatever; humans could probably be corrupted if they treated it as they would a god).

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@runeblade.7514 said:

@Julia Nardin.9824 said:Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

I kinda wish he went after Primordus. The Charr once worshipped the Destroyers, now they mastered them.

Doesn't really make sense for Bangar to traverse across Central Tyria when he's got an Elder Dragon right next proverbial door. Primordus is still at the Ring of Fire, and under lava. Ice is easier to get through than lava.

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@perilisk.1874 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:victim complextalking about 'one blood' or 'one people'violent and militaristic

the concert could have been any extremist right concert, just replace 'charr' with 'white people' or 'aryans'.

Am I the only one who gets a strong national socialist at 33 vibe from all this?

I think you were probably supposed to. That said, One Charr isn't inherently hostile or charr supremacist. The idea that the Charr legions should work together instead of at cross purposes isn't really that different from the Pact, until you consider how Bangar intends to utilize that unity. In some regards, then, Bangar is positioning himself as an anti-Commander, especially if it is Bangar that Jormag is addressing as "Champion" in the trailer. Perhaps the season will see him assembling an anti-Dragon's Watch as well?

I'm unsure how I feel about that. The notion of one charr, one blood, one nation. As well as warband above self, Legion above warband, and Charr above Legion as well as Charr above all seems awfully similar to Volk in concept. Volk isn't strictly bad at a glance, but when you pump up nationalism to the degree where you believe in this singular Charr above all, this abstract concept of Charrdom that you must fight and die for, it gets really scary really fast.

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@Loesh.4697 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:victim complextalking about 'one blood' or 'one people'violent and militaristic

the concert could have been any extremist right concert, just replace 'charr' with 'white people' or 'aryans'.

Am I the only one who gets a strong national socialist at 33 vibe from all this?

I think you were probably supposed to. That said, One Charr isn't inherently hostile or charr supremacist. The idea that the Charr legions should work together instead of at cross purposes isn't really that different from the Pact, until you consider how Bangar intends to utilize that unity. In some regards, then, Bangar is positioning himself as an anti-Commander, especially if it is Bangar that Jormag is addressing as "Champion" in the trailer. Perhaps the season will see him assembling an anti-Dragon's Watch as well?

I'm unsure how I feel about that. The notion of one charr, one blood, one nation. As well as warband above self, Legion above warband, and Charr above Legion as well as Charr above all seems awfully similar to
Volk
in concept. Volk isn't strictly bad at a glance, but when you pump up nationalism to the degree where you believe in this singular Charr above all, this abstract concept of Charrdom that you must fight and die for, it gets really scary really fast.

Yeah, Bangar is fashing it up hard - Someone at Anet has definitely read a bit of Umberto Eco's stuff about Ur-fascism, Bangar's rhetoric hits so many of those check-boxes.

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@Loesh.4697 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:victim complextalking about 'one blood' or 'one people'violent and militaristic

the concert could have been any extremist right concert, just replace 'charr' with 'white people' or 'aryans'.

Am I the only one who gets a strong national socialist at 33 vibe from all this?

I think you were probably supposed to. That said, One Charr isn't inherently hostile or charr supremacist. The idea that the Charr legions should work together instead of at cross purposes isn't really that different from the Pact, until you consider how Bangar intends to utilize that unity. In some regards, then, Bangar is positioning himself as an anti-Commander, especially if it is Bangar that Jormag is addressing as "Champion" in the trailer. Perhaps the season will see him assembling an anti-Dragon's Watch as well?

I'm unsure how I feel about that. The notion of one charr, one blood, one nation. As well as warband above self, Legion above warband, and Charr above Legion as well as Charr above all seems awfully similar to
Volk
in concept. Volk isn't strictly bad at a glance, but when you pump up nationalism to the degree where you believe in this singular Charr above all, this abstract concept of Charrdom that you must fight and die for, it gets really scary really fast.

But a warband isn't a family, and a legion isn't a tribe. Going from Spartan to fascist isn't really much of a leap, so it's hard to lay it all on the shoulders of Bangar or even to treat it as a new development. If anything, it's the relative openness of the Iron and Ash Legions and Pact Charr that is the new development for their society.

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@perilisk.1874 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:victim complextalking about 'one blood' or 'one people'violent and militaristic

the concert could have been any extremist right concert, just replace 'charr' with 'white people' or 'aryans'.

Am I the only one who gets a strong national socialist at 33 vibe from all this?

I think you were probably supposed to. That said, One Charr isn't inherently hostile or charr supremacist. The idea that the Charr legions should work together instead of at cross purposes isn't really that different from the Pact, until you consider how Bangar intends to utilize that unity. In some regards, then, Bangar is positioning himself as an anti-Commander, especially if it is Bangar that Jormag is addressing as "Champion" in the trailer. Perhaps the season will see him assembling an anti-Dragon's Watch as well?

I'm unsure how I feel about that. The notion of one charr, one blood, one nation. As well as warband above self, Legion above warband, and Charr above Legion as well as Charr above all seems awfully similar to
Volk
in concept. Volk isn't strictly bad at a glance, but when you pump up nationalism to the degree where you believe in this singular Charr above all, this abstract concept of Charrdom that you must fight and die for, it gets really scary really fast.

But a warband isn't a family, and a legion isn't a tribe. Going from Spartan to fascist isn't really much of a leap, so it's hard to lay it all on the shoulders of Bangar or even to treat it as a new development. If anything, it's the relative openness of the Iron and Ash Legions and Pact Charr that is the new development for their society.

I wouldn't disagree especially since the treatise on One Charr that Gorrik finds is implied to have been around before, and Volk had existed before the Fascists in question. Indeed if anything it's a combination of having a charismatic speaker like Bangar to push the narrative and Charr society suffering an extreme backlash under the treaty and mingling with other nations.

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@perilisk.1874 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:victim complextalking about 'one blood' or 'one people'violent and militaristic

the concert could have been any extremist right concert, just replace 'charr' with 'white people' or 'aryans'.

Am I the only one who gets a strong national socialist at 33 vibe from all this?

I think you were probably supposed to. That said, One Charr isn't inherently hostile or charr supremacist. The idea that the Charr legions should work together instead of at cross purposes isn't really that different from the Pact, until you consider how Bangar intends to utilize that unity. In some regards, then, Bangar is positioning himself as an anti-Commander, especially if it is Bangar that Jormag is addressing as "Champion" in the trailer. Perhaps the season will see him assembling an anti-Dragon's Watch as well?

I'm unsure how I feel about that. The notion of one charr, one blood, one nation. As well as warband above self, Legion above warband, and Charr above Legion as well as Charr above all seems awfully similar to
Volk
in concept. Volk isn't strictly bad at a glance, but when you pump up nationalism to the degree where you believe in this singular Charr above all, this abstract concept of Charrdom that you must fight and die for, it gets really scary really fast.

But a warband isn't a family, and a legion isn't a tribe. Going from Spartan to fascist isn't really much of a leap, so it's hard to lay it all on the shoulders of Bangar or even to treat it as a new development. If anything, it's the relative openness of the Iron and Ash Legions and Pact Charr that is the new development for their society.

Yeah. Like Smodur says in the story - "He's old. So's his thinking. For someone who talks big about the future, he sure clings to the past.". The Charr in GW2 have been in a state of trying to recover from an existance bound up in a forever war - they've gone from a war of feudal unification (The Khan-ur dragging all the disparate warbands together, setting up legions, one per cub) with no peaceful break at all before being thrown into a hellish thousand-year forever-war (Humans colonizing Ascalon, the Khan-Ur getting assassinated, the Wall going up), and then the Searing, Orr, the Titans, two centuries of civil war (Flame vs Everyone Else) AND the human resistance and the ghosts, and then an Elder Dragon or three.

Charr society is a huge, nasty militaristic mess - the Olmakhan really do have a good point, and if they weren't so nice they'd probably be pointing at us right now and chanting "WE TOLD YOU SO.". Even progressive, technocratic Smodur's got a bit of the old thinking rattling around in his skull given how he insisted on the return of the Claw of the Khan-ur before he'd negotiate the Ebonhawk Treaty - well, unless he's secretly decided to smash the Claw of the Khan-ur instead of claiming it so he can set up elections and form a Charr Republic.

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Concerning the original post, I'd like us all to consider how far up North Ascalonian settlers went, since they have a massive ruin in Grothmar Valley. This place is extremely far away from the Ascalonian Basin, and what is usually considered the heartland of Royal Ascalon. Meaning that even if the Charr held the later portion of territory only for 20 years, they also had their own land invaded long enough and deep enough for humans to be able to build fortifications near the Far Shiverpeaks, and have them still manned when Adelbern unleashed the Foefire (since we know ghosts of the Foefire don't wander far from their place of death). Grothamar Valley is North to the Eye of the North, after all.

In that regard, the deep grudge and hatred of ancient Charr against humans is easier to understand. While their society is largely nasty and unable to sustain long lasting peace as it is, I also think it wouldn't take too much to keep some of those (the fahrars, the warbands, the cohesion inside each Legion) and use it as a template for a more progressive and cohesive society. I think it's more the ideology and war-like culture which needs to change, more so than the structures of the Charrs. They aren't so far from actual Socialism, in a way, so I would be sad to see them tear all of it down instead of acvtually improving what they already have.

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