KP system is why raids are dead ( I use fake LI/KP now) - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

KP system is why raids are dead ( I use fake LI/KP now)

2

Comments

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Been playing at 80 for a while

    Sure it's totally healthy for the game to be entirely reliant veterans who might be tired of teaching newbies

    It is when playing crucial roles like supports.

    Miss a few rotation steps as dps, your raid loses some dps (any where between 3-4 and maybe 15k when you die). Miss or make mistakes as a chrono, and your raid loses a ton of dps (starts at 4-6k and goes up to 15k+ and above with lack of quickness/alacrity). A bad chrono can be a reason why a raid group has difficulties clearing content, just as a good chrono can make things a lot easier (just not as before when chronos could carry raids).

    Not 2%, it's 5 and equates to way more than that when you factor in stat synergies

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30517/ascended-vs-exotic-not-5

    That calculation factors in ALL the stats. Suffice to say, the vast minority of offensive stats come from armor and the vast majority from weapons as well as trinkets. Kind of why the common recommendation is always: get trinkets and weapons. Almost as though people knew what they were talking about.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Heaven forbid someone want to play a class that's their main, guess i just suck for picking that, right? Or wanting to learn something? This community os way more toxic than i thought..

    No one is denying you to play your main. Given your recent question thread in the mesmer forums dealing with boon uptime, you seem very inexperiened at it though (and haven't bothered to check any rotation videos or do some golem practice).

    People are explaining which roles are easiest for new players who come into raids. If you want to start with a support class (and some people do, due to the constant demand of chronos), put in the work to not be a burden to your raid group.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Also hate to break it to you, anything is puggable in any game once you know your class well enough and have a properly prepared group who understands mechanics + a form of voice comms. And i've actually never pugged. I've always been in guild. We've filled sure but it wasn't a complete pug. And why did we fill? Not enough vets wanted to do it. There's plenty of geared people in my guild.

    Result and intent do not have to match. In this case they do not. That does not mean that the intent has to change.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is no actual "raid experience system" in place and that is the real problem here. The only thing we have is this arbitrary way of assuming someone's experience by counting their KPs. We are pretty much judging a person's driving ability by checking the miles they have clocked on their first car. A terrible method but it is the only thing we have.
    There may possibly be this one tiny diamond in every ton of coal who is left behind and locked out by high KP requirements even if they would far outshine everyone else on a similar level of experience when given the chance but those people are rare, very rare. People would ask for titles like Voice in the Void and most likely come up with even more far-fetched ways of proving your experience if they could no longer use KPs.

    Making raids harder would lock out a big number of players who are already raiding but only just able to reach a decent level of success. Those who are new would have an even harder time getting in raids if they now had to force their ways into semi-hardcore/hardcore guilds because those would be the only people left raiding.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Not 2%, it's 5 and equates to way more than that when you factor in stat synergies

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30517/ascended-vs-exotic-not-5

    This is a better analysis of Exotic vs Ascended:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/31wbip/ascended_vs_exotic_gear_comparison_spreedsheet/

    A full ascended berserker set gives you a 12.5% increase in damage over a full exotic berserker gear set with power omni infusions. This is the maximum increase in damage obtainable with ascended gear. The ascended weapon gives the biggest increase for an individual item at 5.9%. Ascended armor only increases damage by 1.8% over exotic if you already have ascended back, trinkets and weapon.

    As you can see Armor does give 1.8% (less than 2%) damage boost. And this is using Infusions too

    Heaven forbid someone want to play a class that's their main, guess i just suck for picking that, right? Or learn something?

    For support Raid chrono you don't need full diviner: https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/
    Power Chrono: https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/power/ is also available as a much cheaper alternative if you want to use Chrono in Raids and not tank.

    My issue with the snow crows build is that it doesn't communicate how reliant you are on the other chrono and how you both have to coordinate your soi at a point in time when both your groups are covered by the buffs you just gave. There's actually incredibly high margins or error. Self sustaining your buffs is only possible at 77% bd, i've done the math. You also have to get a certain number of clones weaved in between to maintain 100% self alacrity because of the self alacrity duration penalty chronos suffer from. And the numbers I worked with were based on that up time. And note this means the chronos both must have baseline conc in order to maintain buffs, if one of the chronos is missing the right amount of concentration, it's very easy for their sois to fall out of sync.

    I actually think crows may be damaging the incoming community for this reason. I also think it needs to do a better job of explaining why certain builds are sub par in certain situations. Is it dps? Or does the quickbrand lose the ability to pull of their rotation? If i was building a raid for the first time, I wouldn't take bs chronos because of the coordination required between them on top of the other mechanics. Snow crows assumes a lot of things.

    I don't have to respond to everyone, and i won't. But silence does not necessarily give consent. I don't have the energy to disprove every point others disagree with me on.

    Editted for accuracy.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:
    To reiterate what i have already said - KPs are not the reason why raids are not as popular as some might want. They are at best a sideeffect of one of the reasons behind that low popularity - namely, a sideeffect of content difficulty.

    As @Henry.5713 mentioned above, KPs are just a stand-in for "raid experience system". That "system" is needed because raiders want to to raids with other experienced people. They want to do that because they fear that otherwise they might either not be able to kill the boss, or that the run will be more painful and annoying (and definitely way longer). They fear that, because they have ample reasons to think that a vast majority of players are not on the level needed to make the kill smooth. And the majority of players are not on the level to make the kill smooth, because the content is difficult.

    So, removing KPs won't change nothing, because it doesn't do anything about the reason why KPs are used. They'd simply be replaced by something else.
    Obviously, increasing difficulty won't help either, because it's the high difficulty that is the root of the whole situation.

    Notice though, that there are other reasons behind why the raid population is decreasing (reward level, release schedule, general population decrease in the whole game). Those other reasons, though have nothing to do with KPs.

    I actually think stale content is a big problem for this game. They need to add seasonal mechanics and rewards to everything: fractals, raids, dungeons, pvp, wvw. I think if they could manage that it would keep more players engaged in those game modes.

    The mechanics should probably add both a favorable mechanic (to balance the unfavorable one) and unfavorable mechanic that fundamentally changes the way the meta operates.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Not 2%, it's 5 and equates to way more than that when you factor in stat synergies

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30517/ascended-vs-exotic-not-5

    This is a better analysis of Exotic vs Ascended:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/31wbip/ascended_vs_exotic_gear_comparison_spreedsheet/

    A full ascended berserker set gives you a 12.5% increase in damage over a full exotic berserker gear set with power omni infusions. This is the maximum increase in damage obtainable with ascended gear. The ascended weapon gives the biggest increase for an individual item at 5.9%. Ascended armor only increases damage by 1.8% over exotic if you already have ascended back, trinkets and weapon.

    As you can see Armor does give 1.8% (less than 2%) damage boost. And this is using Infusions too

    Heaven forbid someone want to play a class that's their main, guess i just suck for picking that, right? Or learn something?

    For support Raid chrono you don't need full diviner: https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/
    Power Chrono: https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/power/ is also available as a much cheaper alternative if you want to use Chrono in Raids and not tank.

    My issue with the snow crows build is that it doesn't communicate how reliant you are on the other chrono and how you both have to coordinate your soi at a point in time when both your groups are covered by the buffs you just gave. There's actually incredibly high margins or error. Self sustaining your buffs is only possible at 100% bd, i've done the math. You also have to get a certain number of clones weaved in between to maintain 100% self alacrity because of the self alacrity duration penalty chronos suffer from. And the numbers I worked with were based on that up time. And note this means the chronos both must have baseline conc in order to maintain buffs, if one of the chronos is missing the right amount of concentration, it's very easy for their sois to fall out of sync.

    I actually think crows may be damaging the incoming community for this reason. I also think it needs to do a better job of explaining why certain builds are sub par in certain situations. Is it dps? Or does the quickbrand lose the ability to pull of their rotation? If i was building a raid for the first time, I wouldn't take bs chronos because of the coordination required between them on top of the other mechanics. Snow crows assumes a lot of things.

    I don't have to respond to everyone, and i won't. But silence does not necessarily give consent. I don't have the energy to disprove every point others disagree with me on.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/

    They have a page that explains the general mechanics of the class as well as for each boss. A lot of this also comes down to the player simply knowing the class which is why this typically isn’t the best for someone new to play as.

    I don’t believe SC intended their website to hold player’s hand but I can’t speak for them. There are things players will have to learn which comes from experience with the class and raids.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    My issue with the snow crows build is that it doesn't communicate how reliant you are on the other chrono and how you both have to coordinate your soi at a point in time when both your groups are covered by the buffs you just gave. There's actually incredibly high margins or error. Self sustaining your buffs is only possible at 100% bd, i've done the math. You also have to get a certain number of clones weaved in between to maintain 100% self alacrity because of the self alacrity duration penalty chronos suffer from. And the numbers I worked with were based on that up time. And note this means the chronos both must have baseline conc in order to maintain buffs, if one of the chronos is missing the right amount of concentration, it's very easy for their sois to fall out of sync.

    Your math is wrong and you have definately not tried a basic rotation on the golem either solo or with a second chrono.

    The required bd is about 50% for permanent boons with 2 chronos with good play. Hence why SC go for less bd, since permanent boons are not needed in top performance groups (but definately recommended for new chronos).

    There is no necessity for shatters for alacrity at 100% bd even with trait which increases self alacrity effect at penatly of time.

    I'm just going to file this under one more thing which you did not actually test and which you made mistakes on in theory which could have been easily disproved ingame.

    I did a duo chrono rotation while training a new chrono player 3 weeks ago, without buff food and both of us at around 75% bd. We both hit above 1 minute on boons, both alacrity and quickness.

    What is it with you and making up bs? I said "self sustain" on group, meaning no outside help.

    If i'm wrong, then great, show me the numbers, and show the rotation step by step. I also can't trust what the chrono sees on their own boons, because shatters self buff and it throws off what you're actually giving the group. Soi doesn't share any more. If i'm wrong i'm guessing 80-90%

    Edit: did more theory reasoning about the boon times a different way, theoretical min is 77% as far as i can tell. This is without cast times/player reaction times taken into account. Previously i thought you would take your 6th well before cs came off cd, but this is wrong, it's possible to build enough bd before the next cs that it's better to just save it.

    That being said, my feelings about snow crows remain and these numbers don't include weaving clones for your own alacrity.

    Love the likes on your comment by the way, just shows how toxic and unable to follow a conversation this community is.

    Me: one chrono can only do it in this circumstance
    You: but two did it in this one!
    Me: kitten?

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    My issue with the snow crows build is that it doesn't communicate how reliant you are on the other chrono and how you both have to coordinate your soi at a point in time when both your groups are covered by the buffs you just gave. There's actually incredibly high margins or error. Self sustaining your buffs is only possible at 100% bd, i've done the math. You also have to get a certain number of clones weaved in between to maintain 100% self alacrity because of the self alacrity duration penalty chronos suffer from. And the numbers I worked with were based on that up time. And note this means the chronos both must have baseline conc in order to maintain buffs, if one of the chronos is missing the right amount of concentration, it's very easy for their sois to fall out of sync.

    Your math is wrong and you have definately not tried a basic rotation on the golem either solo or with a second chrono.

    The required bd is about 50% for permanent boons with 2 chronos with good play. Hence why SC go for less bd, since permanent boons are not needed in top performance groups (but definately recommended for new chronos).

    There is no necessity for shatters for alacrity at 100% bd even with trait which increases self alacrity effect at penatly of time.

    I'm just going to file this under one more thing which you did not actually test and which you made mistakes on in theory which could have been easily disproved ingame.

    I did a duo chrono rotation while training a new chrono player 3 weeks ago, without buff food and both of us at around 75% bd. We both hit above 1 minute on boons, both alacrity and quickness.

    What is it with you and making up bs? I said "self sustain" on group, meaning no outside help.

    If i'm wrong, then great, show me the numbers, and show the rotation step by step. I also can't trust what the chrono sees on their own boons, because shatters self buff and it throws off what you're actually giving the group. Soi doesn't share any more. If i'm wrong i'm guessing 80-90%

    Love the likes on your comment by the way, just shows how toxic and unable to follow a conversation this community is.

    Me: one chrono can only do it in this circumstance
    You: but two did it in this one!
    Me: kitten?

    Do you even know why people run double chrono? Do you know in which situations that people run just one chrono?

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    My issue with the snow crows build is that it doesn't communicate how reliant you are on the other chrono and how you both have to coordinate your soi at a point in time when both your groups are covered by the buffs you just gave. There's actually incredibly high margins or error. Self sustaining your buffs is only possible at 100% bd, i've done the math. You also have to get a certain number of clones weaved in between to maintain 100% self alacrity because of the self alacrity duration penalty chronos suffer from. And the numbers I worked with were based on that up time. And note this means the chronos both must have baseline conc in order to maintain buffs, if one of the chronos is missing the right amount of concentration, it's very easy for their sois to fall out of sync.

    Your math is wrong and you have definately not tried a basic rotation on the golem either solo or with a second chrono.

    The required bd is about 50% for permanent boons with 2 chronos with good play. Hence why SC go for less bd, since permanent boons are not needed in top performance groups (but definately recommended for new chronos).

    There is no necessity for shatters for alacrity at 100% bd even with trait which increases self alacrity effect at penatly of time.

    I'm just going to file this under one more thing which you did not actually test and which you made mistakes on in theory which could have been easily disproved ingame.

    I did a duo chrono rotation while training a new chrono player 3 weeks ago, without buff food and both of us at around 75% bd. We both hit above 1 minute on boons, both alacrity and quickness.

    What is it with you and making up bs? I said "self sustain" on group, meaning no outside help.

    If i'm wrong, then great, show me the numbers, and show the rotation step by step. I also can't trust what the chrono sees on their own boons, because shatters self buff and it throws off what you're actually giving the group. Soi doesn't share any more. If i'm wrong i'm guessing 80-90%

    Love the likes on your comment by the way, just shows how toxic and unable to follow a conversation this community is.

    Me: one chrono can only do it in this circumstance
    You: but two did it in this one!
    Me: kitten?

    Do you even know why people run double chrono? Do you know in which situations that people run just one chrono?

    I do. But is it better to create more interdependencies between players or have them be able to perform their role in a box? Mechanics are no joke. I guess it's personal preference and in my case i would want each person to be able to fulfill their role on their own.

  • They should just add public mode from strike missions. Boom, KP problem solved. Everyone can play. Raid population instantly revived. Why not?

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Naustis.8510 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Naustis.8510 said:
    I understand people who wants KP, but I don't understand why GW2 community is so much into 'you have to complete X content 50 times to know what to do'. WoW raids and m+ dungeons are far harder, and if you killed a boss 5 times you know perfectly what to do... There is no need to kill it 50 times.

    Because players want consistent and smooth runs in the groups that they create. If you did raids, you’d understand where this is coming from. There are some mechanics where a single player can cause the raid to fail.

    So it is in WoW. I killed few bosses in GW2, and for most part is targrt dummy simulator with some short fazes of activity.

    It’s not as dumbed down as you make it for those that are not experienced enough at the bosses. This is evident if you ever pug them or try to bring in pugs to your statics.

    Well yeah, different teams approaches bosses differently so new player in team may need 2-3 wipes to see how you do it. I don't see a problen here though. But I maybe GW2 people are too used to one shotting everything, and because of that they concider a wipe as natural disaster.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naustis.8510 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Naustis.8510 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Naustis.8510 said:
    I understand people who wants KP, but I don't understand why GW2 community is so much into 'you have to complete X content 50 times to know what to do'. WoW raids and m+ dungeons are far harder, and if you killed a boss 5 times you know perfectly what to do... There is no need to kill it 50 times.

    Because players want consistent and smooth runs in the groups that they create. If you did raids, you’d understand where this is coming from. There are some mechanics where a single player can cause the raid to fail.

    So it is in WoW. I killed few bosses in GW2, and for most part is targrt dummy simulator with some short fazes of activity.

    It’s not as dumbed down as you make it for those that are not experienced enough at the bosses. This is evident if you ever pug them or try to bring in pugs to your statics.

    Well yeah, different teams approaches bosses differently so new player in team may need 2-3 wipes to see how you do it. I don't see a problen here though. But I maybe GW2 people are too used to one shotting everything, and because of that they concider a wipe as natural disaster.

    That’s assuming the player is capable of learning that quickly. That’s also assuming that you have just that one player. This gets significantly worse the more new players you add and just increases the time raids unnecessarily take along with annoying everyone else. People’s time has value and should not be shrugged off as meaningless in order to carry/train others.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:
    They should just add public mode from strike missions. Boom, KP problem solved. Everyone can play. Raid population instantly revived. Why not?

    Assuming this isn't a sarcastic post, imagine if you go fight Vale Guardian in "public mode" and you get nobody that can strip boons, or no healer, or not enough players that can deal condition damage. Public Raids will never work.

    50/50. In the interests of getting something done and getting that sweet sweet raid loot, you'd think out of 10 people trying to do the raid at least one could provide boon stripping.

    Don't we pride ourselves on our community? Doesn't the player want the shiny? Collaborate.

    If not well, it's public mode after all. Could always try doing things in a static. But having the option there removes a lot of the 'I'm locked out of this content' feeling.

    It wouldn't eliminate KP faking because there will always be that guy who feels entitled to being carried, but having a public option would greatly reduce that I'd think and if nothing else bring new blood to end game content that's lacking population.

    It's kind of sad you have more people buying raids as opposed to doing them, though I guess practically speaking the people selling them probably want it this way.

  • SoulSlavocracy.4902SoulSlavocracy.4902 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    I got a little carried away with an edgy response and now I regret it. I think I had a good point but this wasn't the time to make it.
    Disregard

    | Solemn [DoM][PAL][BOZ][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:
    They should just add public mode from strike missions. Boom, KP problem solved. Everyone can play. Raid population instantly revived. Why not?

    Assuming this isn't a sarcastic post, imagine if you go fight Vale Guardian in "public mode" and you get nobody that can strip boons, or no healer, or not enough players that can deal condition damage. Public Raids will never work.

    50/50. In the interests of getting something done and getting that sweet sweet raid loot, you'd think out of 10 people trying to do the raid at least one could provide boon stripping.

    Don't we pride ourselves on our community? Doesn't the player want the shiny? Collaborate.

    If not well, it's public mode after all. Could always try doing things in a static. But having the option there removes a lot of the 'I'm locked out of this content' feeling.

    It won't, because it will not work. You can't assign roles in strike mission-type public mode. When that role is important (and many are), the system won't be able to make certain you'll get one. And if you won't get one, the very same system gives you no way to correct that problem.
    No boon strip is a minor problem here. No healer, no tank (or too many of those), no kiter at deimos... how are you going to deal with that?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    And if there was a way to assign roles, you run the risk of people lying. ESO has this issue with its grouping system for dungeons. You can queue as tank, healer, or DPS but some people will select tank or healer despite being DPS in order to get a shorter queue.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Losing a chrono or having a bad chrono is far worse than having 1 or 2 bad dps or losing dps.

    What I find more shocking is that in this day and age, at this stage of the game, with this amount of guides and rotation videos and explenations. People can still try to reinvent the wheel.

    Ha. Well if the dps reqs are only 40-50k on normal bosses, having the boons only up based on 2 people playing the most complex class is probably far more fragile when mechanics come into play than having each of those players sustain their role, because technically one group, if played really well could finish the boss. This is my case and point about snow crows and elitists: they aren't teaching people fault tolerant strategies, they're hyperfocused on hyper optimal strategies.

    Also does firebrand hit anyone outside 5 players? Those values are still relevant for quickness when paired with firebrigade.

    Do you just do as your told without asking questions or figuring out why?

  • The kp system in gw2 is a joke. Doesnt mean or prove anything at all. The way i look at it is that if you dont have a static and you use pugs, you have no right to complain about pugs ruining your game. After all it's your buffoonery that let them in it in the 1st place or decided to stay. Perhaps you should complain to yourself for making a bad decision on the person you choose to roll with. So i dont feel bad for raiders, fractalers, pvper or any other game mode player that ends in er. Instead of putting someone down it would be in your best interest to pick them up and help them get better. You dont have to be exceptional just good enough. Gw2 raids aren't that hard.

  • The only way to keep people from using 'kill proofs' is giving an use for them so good that no one in their right mind would use them or expect anyone else to use them for anything else, so people consume them.

  • @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The only way to keep people from using 'kill proofs' is giving an use for them so good that no one in their right mind would use them or expect anyone else to use them for anything else, so people consume them.

    Which would be pointless, because then they'd simply get replaced with something else.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Chrono is not the most complex class. It hasn't been in a while. Even less so for support chrono who has arguably one of the easiest roles in raids currently. The difficulty for chronos comes from the many different boss mechanics the tank needs to know and the vast amount of mechanics unloaded onto the class. It doesn't make the class difficult, it makes the role in the squad complicated. That's different. As far as rotation, chrono has become rather simple.

    Yeah as opposed to just having to drop a well in the right spot every 16 seconds, Squeezing 3 skills in a tight window to double them up is just an absolute piece of cake. Not to mention the number of different skills that all play into both generating your boons as well as sustaining them. I am curious though, what's worse?

    No they are not. A firebrigade setup automatically means the chrono has 1 free utility slot which he can dedicate to mimic, which in turn means more SoI uptime.

    I thought of this, depends on how many shatters you want to be forced to do. And oddly enough you didn't give a new bd number with this. You'd still need a threshold.

    How's that for obtuse? What would be so bad about more stat selectable exotics in the economy allowing players to more easily access different builds?

    I would also say obtuse is feeling like you have to shove your opinion down someone's throat despite evidence to the contrary in one thread and then feeling like you have to stalk someone's every move after, to the point of even ignoring what the person was talking about in the first place in the new thread.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Chrono is not the most complex class. It hasn't been in a while. Even less so for support chrono who has arguably one of the easiest roles in raids currently. The difficulty for chronos comes from the many different boss mechanics the tank needs to know and the vast amount of mechanics unloaded onto the class. It doesn't make the class difficult, it makes the role in the squad complicated. That's different. As far as rotation, chrono has become rather simple.

    Yeah as opposed to just having to drop a well in the right spot every 16 seconds, Squeezing 3 skills in a tight window to double them up is just an absolute piece of cake. Not to mention the number of different skills that all play into both generating your boons as well as sustaining them. I am curious though, what's worse?

    No they are not. A firebrigade setup automatically means the chrono has 1 free utility slot which he can dedicate to mimic, which in turn means more SoI uptime.

    I thought of this, depends on how many shatters you want to be forced to do. And oddly enough you didn't give a new bd number with this. You'd still need a threshold.

    How's that for obtuse? What would be so bad about more stat selectable exotics in the economy allowing players to more easily access different builds?

    I would also say obtuse is feeling like you have to shove your opinion down someone's throat despite evidence to the contrary in one thread and then feeling like you have to stalk someone's every move after, to the point of even ignoring what the person was talking about in the first place in the new thread.

    What's your raiding experience in this game?

    I only ask because in another one of your threads you stated that Salvation Pass was the only raid that you've done and you had only done it twice. This was five days ago.

    Second go at Salvation pass yesterday (the only raid I've done), and I laugh in the face of anyone saying GW2 raids are heroic level for WoW. Nope did multiple heroic tiers, and just nope. That one is definitely mythic (if WoW even has mechanics difficult enough to compare).

    If you've only done a single raid boss twice (1st in mid July and 2nd on the 20th), how can you possibly comment on how things are in raids? There are people on here with a ton more raid experience than you and yet you're saying they're wrong based on the two times you raided.

    And of those two times that you raided, were they training runs? How experienced were the other players in your squad?

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Chrono is not the most complex class. It hasn't been in a while. Even less so for support chrono who has arguably one of the easiest roles in raids currently. The difficulty for chronos comes from the many different boss mechanics the tank needs to know and the vast amount of mechanics unloaded onto the class. It doesn't make the class difficult, it makes the role in the squad complicated. That's different. As far as rotation, chrono has become rather simple.

    Yeah as opposed to just having to drop a well in the right spot every 16 seconds, Squeezing 3 skills in a tight window to double them up is just an absolute piece of cake. Not to mention the number of different skills that all play into both generating your boons as well as sustaining them. I am curious though, what's worse?

    No they are not. A firebrigade setup automatically means the chrono has 1 free utility slot which he can dedicate to mimic, which in turn means more SoI uptime.

    I thought of this, depends on how many shatters you want to be forced to do. And oddly enough you didn't give a new bd number with this. You'd still need a threshold.

    How's that for obtuse? What would be so bad about more stat selectable exotics in the economy allowing players to more easily access different builds?

    I would also say obtuse is feeling like you have to shove your opinion down someone's throat despite evidence to the contrary in one thread and then feeling like you have to stalk someone's every move after, to the point of even ignoring what the person was talking about in the first place in the new thread.

    What's your raiding experience in this game?

    I only ask because in another one of your threads you stated that Salvation Pass was the only raid that you've done and you had only done it twice. This was five days ago.

    Second go at Salvation pass yesterday (the only raid I've done), and I laugh in the face of anyone saying GW2 raids are heroic level for WoW. Nope did multiple heroic tiers, and just nope. That one is definitely mythic (if WoW even has mechanics difficult enough to compare).

    If you've only done a single raid boss twice (1st in mid July and 2nd on the 20th), how can you possibly comment on how things are in raids? There are people on here with a ton more raid experience than you and yet you're saying they're wrong based on the two times you raided.

    And of those two times that you raided, were they training runs? How experienced were the other players in your squad?

    1) there is nothing wrong with theorycraft. And i'm not saying they're wrong, i'm just saying what's right for experienced players is different, and i'm specifically pointing out that optimizing the same way as experienced players for new players is more error prone/less fault tolerant. I'm also kind of shocked at how little technical detail i'm getting from "experienced" raiders on their profession, just memorized rotations and metas. I guess they're all tied up in metas pooped out by snow crows. A good example of this is I actually had high enough concentration in the presence of another mesmer to sustain my rotation but couldn't because the other one sucked. So yeah i feel completely justified going to gear values that allow me to contribute to the group without someone else's help.

    2) yeah alot of them didn't have experience and i think i actually ousted our current raid leader because someone else is in charge now it seems. Our raid leader had experience but imo was too focused on metas as opposed to strategy and didn't take our runs seriously based on some of his behavior. I've called him out on it multiple times, and it seems someone else has stepped up to the plate. I've raided enough in other games to know the barrier here is gear and poorly designed mechanics. But i think the gear is the bigger issue. Telling people go grind x for n number of months/weeks before you can do y activity encourages them to do z that's more enjoyable low hanging fruit. Funny story our training runs were our only ones but couldn't seem to actually keep people. I would know because i went once, figured I needed better gear and waited before trying again.

    3) it's entirely appropriate for people new players to comment on a thread that discusses the barriers into raiding. Keeping them out is the choir preaching to itself.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2019

    About KPs, does players actually Ask other KPs than dhuum/qadim1/qadim2? I usually raid with guild but whenever i pug o usually see only squads asking for 250LI, squads asking low amount of LI or squads asking zero LI. Its pretty rare to see those 3 KPs asked unless its monday, after that every now and then there is a KP Squad in LFG but usually only LI squads.
    And LI is a lot easier to get than harder boss KPs.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Chrono is not the most complex class. It hasn't been in a while. Even less so for support chrono who has arguably one of the easiest roles in raids currently. The difficulty for chronos comes from the many different boss mechanics the tank needs to know and the vast amount of mechanics unloaded onto the class. It doesn't make the class difficult, it makes the role in the squad complicated. That's different. As far as rotation, chrono has become rather simple.

    Yeah as opposed to just having to drop a well in the right spot every 16 seconds, Squeezing 3 skills in a tight window to double them up is just an absolute piece of cake. Not to mention the number of different skills that all play into both generating your boons as well as sustaining them. I am curious though, what's worse?

    Yes, pressing 3 skills is hard... especially in a 3 second window, 4.5 seconds with 2 clones. News flash, it is not. It's called muscle memory and most chronos who have practiced and played have.

    Try some of the more complex dps rotations like weaver or renegade, maybe mirage. Then get a 90% benchmark or above. It is far easier to get boons right than be a good dps rotation wise. The leeway for errors and the possibility to overstack bd both make chrobo far easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No they are not. A firebrigade setup automatically means the chrono has 1 free utility slot which he can dedicate to mimic, which in turn means more SoI uptime.

    I thought of this, depends on how many shatters you want to be forced to do. And oddly enough you didn't give a new bd number with this. You'd still need a threshold.

    In your case, as much as you can.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    How's that for obtuse? What would be so bad about more stat selectable exotics in the economy allowing players to more easily access different builds?

    I would also say obtuse is feeling like you have to shove your opinion down someone's throat despite evidence to the contrary in one thread and then feeling like you have to stalk someone's every move after, to the point of even ignoring what the person was talking about in the first place in the new thread.

    Which evidence? I see no theorycrafting in this thread. I see someone throw out random numbers which are clearly based on incorrect rotation and/or bad gameplay which can easily be disproved at the golem.

    You are right in one point. There is no reason to once continue this conversation. I'm not the one having issues with raids in this game. Far be it for me to help or lecture someone who wants to figure everything else by themselves. Hopefully said person doesn't come complaining again about how hard raids in this game are.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2019

    And you ignore the other parts of your rotation and fail to compare it to other classes doing similar things, while also failing to answer my question about which class is harder, overall you're failing to convince me of anything.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which evidence? I see no theorycrafting in this thread. I see someone throw out random numbers which are clearly based on incorrect rotation and/or bad gameplay which can easily be disproved at the golem.

    You are right in one point. There is no reason to once continue this conversation. I'm not the one having issues with raids in this game. Far be it for me to help or lecture someone who wants to figure everything else by themselves. Hopefully said person doesn't come complaining again about how hard raids in this game are.

    Lol and you have no evidence for anything you say. Here it is.

    was going to use the snow crows rotation but it looks incomplete. It doesn't actually cover 70s from CS to CS

    assuming the rotation is 70s from CS to CS (that's what 50% alacrity turns it into if maintained), keeping full quickness/alacrity on party members focusing on just shared boons:
    x = boon duration multiplier (it's 1 + BD %)

    3 (number of casts) * 2 (duration) x(tides of time) + 5 (number of casts in 70s window) * 5 (base duration) x (WoR/WoA) + 3s * 5 (SOI, doesn't scale with BD) = 70s
    6x + 25x + 15 = 70
    31x + 15 = 70
    31x = 55
    x = 1.774...

    BD = 77.4%

    Hilarious snow crows can't be bothered to give a full rotation and in their video showing it off on the dummy it's a hand-wavy "The other chrono will make up the difference, we're showing this with all the buffs in place already", what if the other chrono sucks? Note also this isn't accounting for mechanics causing lag in rotation, or even cast times.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And you ignore the other parts of your rotation and fail to compare it to other classes doing similar things, while also failing to answer my question about which class is harder

    I do not. If you consider pressing phantasms on cd, pressing F1 or F3, occasionally delaying Shield 4, Sword 2 or delaying a signet for aegis share hard, you and I have different definitions of hard.

    I told you, expand your class roster and get some 90% benchmarks on some of the meta dps. Mirage should be right along your main, weaver (or even DH) are excellent power dps, renegade is meta condi. All of them will be significabtly harder than chrono.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which evidence? I see no theorycrafting in this thread. I see someone throw out random numbers which are clearly based on incorrect rotation and/or bad gameplay which can easily be disproved at the golem.

    You are right in one point. There is no reason to once continue this conversation. I'm not the one having issues with raids in this game. Far be it for me to help or lecture someone who wants to figure everything else by themselves. Hopefully said person doesn't come complaining again about how hard raids in this game are.

    Lol and you have no evidence for anything you say. Here it is.

    was going to use the snow crows rotation but it looks incomplete. It doesn't actually cover 70s from CS to CS

    assuming the rotation is 70s from CS to CS (that's what 50% alacrity turns it into), keeping full quickness/alacrity on party members focusing on just shared boons:
    x = boon duration multiplier (it's 1 + BD %)

    3 (number of casts) * 2 (duration) x(tides of time) + 5 (number of casts in 70s window) * 5 (base duration) x (WoR/WoA) + 3s * 5 (SOI, doesn't scale with BD) = 70s
    6x + 25x + 15 = 70
    31x + 15 = 70
    31x = 55
    x = 1.774...

    BD = 77.4%

    and for the bazillionth time, SC is for an optimal setup with 2 chronos. Now add 5 more SoI from the other chrono and your 15 seconds SoI duration go to 30. Now assume that there is nearly no boss with damage phases of above 1 minute for pro groups, and you can drop even below the 50% bd for more damage on chronos.

    Inexperienced groups and chronos should be taking as much bd as possible to cover for mistakes and longer damage phases. tim has a calculator up on the mesmer forums which does the exact math too btw.

    I'm really not sure what you are trying to prove. Except that you are able to work basic functions and solve for x.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And you ignore the other parts of your rotation and fail to compare it to other classes doing similar things, while also failing to answer my question about which class is harder

    I do not. If you consider pressing phantasms on cd, pressing F1 or F3, occasionally delaying Shield 4, Sword 2 or delaying a signet for aegis share hard, you and I have different definitions of hard.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which evidence? I see no theorycrafting in this thread. I see someone throw out random numbers which are clearly based on incorrect rotation and/or bad gameplay which can easily be disproved at the golem.

    You are right in one point. There is no reason to once continue this conversation. I'm not the one having issues with raids in this game. Far be it for me to help or lecture someone who wants to figure everything else by themselves. Hopefully said person doesn't come complaining again about how hard raids in this game are.

    Lol and you have no evidence for anything you say. Here it is.

    was going to use the snow crows rotation but it looks incomplete. It doesn't actually cover 70s from CS to CS

    assuming the rotation is 70s from CS to CS (that's what 50% alacrity turns it into), keeping full quickness/alacrity on party members focusing on just shared boons:
    x = boon duration multiplier (it's 1 + BD %)

    3 (number of casts) * 2 (duration) x(tides of time) + 5 (number of casts in 70s window) * 5 (base duration) x (WoR/WoA) + 3s * 5 (SOI, doesn't scale with BD) = 70s
    6x + 25x + 15 = 70
    31x + 15 = 70
    31x = 55
    x = 1.774...

    BD = 77.4%

    and for the bazillionth time, SC is for an optimal setup with 2 chronos. Now add 5 more SoI from the other chrono and your 15 seconds SoI duration go to 30. Now assume that there is nearly no boss with damage phases of above 1 minute for pro groups, and you can drop even below the 50% bd for more damage on chronos.

    Inexperienced groups and chronos should be taking as much bd as possible to cover for mistakes and longer damage phases. tim has a calculator up on the mesmer forums which does the exact math too btw.

    I'm really not sure what you are trying to prove. Except that you are able to work basic functions and solve for x.

    Wow we're in circles again. Looks like you missed the memo about the chronos I've worked with sucking that I mentioned earlier (to someone else) (in addition to me flat out telling you I don't want to rely on someone else). Hahahahaha you seriously don't listen do you? There seriously needs to be a forum "block" function where you can't read someone posts if they block you and they can't read yours.

    And you're still off topic? why don't you respond to OP about how to increase raid involvement instead of picking on someone who's justifying their choice in stats when building a raid set? That's how this started O and I'm glad you're finally agreeing with me that learners should be stacking more BD because everyone was looking at me like I was crazy before.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And you ignore the other parts of your rotation and fail to compare it to other classes doing similar things, while also failing to answer my question about which class is harder

    I do not. If you consider pressing phantasms on cd, pressing F1 or F3, occasionally delaying Shield 4, Sword 2 or delaying a signet for aegis share hard, you and I have different definitions of hard.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which evidence? I see no theorycrafting in this thread. I see someone throw out random numbers which are clearly based on incorrect rotation and/or bad gameplay which can easily be disproved at the golem.

    You are right in one point. There is no reason to once continue this conversation. I'm not the one having issues with raids in this game. Far be it for me to help or lecture someone who wants to figure everything else by themselves. Hopefully said person doesn't come complaining again about how hard raids in this game are.

    Lol and you have no evidence for anything you say. Here it is.

    was going to use the snow crows rotation but it looks incomplete. It doesn't actually cover 70s from CS to CS

    assuming the rotation is 70s from CS to CS (that's what 50% alacrity turns it into), keeping full quickness/alacrity on party members focusing on just shared boons:
    x = boon duration multiplier (it's 1 + BD %)

    3 (number of casts) * 2 (duration) x(tides of time) + 5 (number of casts in 70s window) * 5 (base duration) x (WoR/WoA) + 3s * 5 (SOI, doesn't scale with BD) = 70s
    6x + 25x + 15 = 70
    31x + 15 = 70
    31x = 55
    x = 1.774...

    BD = 77.4%

    and for the bazillionth time, SC is for an optimal setup with 2 chronos. Now add 5 more SoI from the other chrono and your 15 seconds SoI duration go to 30. Now assume that there is nearly no boss with damage phases of above 1 minute for pro groups, and you can drop even below the 50% bd for more damage on chronos.

    Inexperienced groups and chronos should be taking as much bd as possible to cover for mistakes and longer damage phases. tim has a calculator up on the mesmer forums which does the exact math too btw.

    I'm really not sure what you are trying to prove. Except that you are able to work basic functions and solve for x.

    Wow we're in circles again. Looks like you missed the memo about the chronos I've worked with sucking that I mentioned earlier (to someone else) (in addition to me flat out telling you I don't want to rely on someone else). Hahahahaha you seriously don't listen do you? There seriously needs to be a forum "block" function where you can't read someone posts if they block you and they can't read yours.

    So take as much bd as possible, what have I been stating over and over this thread?

    It's not only for you, it's for the group and covers potetmntially a bad offchrono or players not standing in wells.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And you ignore the other parts of your rotation and fail to compare it to other classes doing similar things, while also failing to answer my question about which class is harder

    I do not. If you consider pressing phantasms on cd, pressing F1 or F3, occasionally delaying Shield 4, Sword 2 or delaying a signet for aegis share hard, you and I have different definitions of hard.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which evidence? I see no theorycrafting in this thread. I see someone throw out random numbers which are clearly based on incorrect rotation and/or bad gameplay which can easily be disproved at the golem.

    You are right in one point. There is no reason to once continue this conversation. I'm not the one having issues with raids in this game. Far be it for me to help or lecture someone who wants to figure everything else by themselves. Hopefully said person doesn't come complaining again about how hard raids in this game are.

    Lol and you have no evidence for anything you say. Here it is.

    was going to use the snow crows rotation but it looks incomplete. It doesn't actually cover 70s from CS to CS

    assuming the rotation is 70s from CS to CS (that's what 50% alacrity turns it into), keeping full quickness/alacrity on party members focusing on just shared boons:
    x = boon duration multiplier (it's 1 + BD %)

    3 (number of casts) * 2 (duration) x(tides of time) + 5 (number of casts in 70s window) * 5 (base duration) x (WoR/WoA) + 3s * 5 (SOI, doesn't scale with BD) = 70s
    6x + 25x + 15 = 70
    31x + 15 = 70
    31x = 55
    x = 1.774...

    BD = 77.4%

    and for the bazillionth time, SC is for an optimal setup with 2 chronos. Now add 5 more SoI from the other chrono and your 15 seconds SoI duration go to 30. Now assume that there is nearly no boss with damage phases of above 1 minute for pro groups, and you can drop even below the 50% bd for more damage on chronos.

    Inexperienced groups and chronos should be taking as much bd as possible to cover for mistakes and longer damage phases. tim has a calculator up on the mesmer forums which does the exact math too btw.

    I'm really not sure what you are trying to prove. Except that you are able to work basic functions and solve for x.

    Wow we're in circles again. Looks like you missed the memo about the chronos I've worked with sucking that I mentioned earlier (to someone else) (in addition to me flat out telling you I don't want to rely on someone else). Hahahahaha you seriously don't listen do you? There seriously needs to be a forum "block" function where you can't read someone posts if they block you and they can't read yours.

    So take as much bd as possible, what have I been stating over and over this thread?

    It's not only for you, it's for the group and covers potetmntially a bad offchrono or players not standing in wells.

    I'm glad we finally agree and we've converged.

  • BrokenGlass.9356BrokenGlass.9356 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    I think, if I may.... What's happening here with OP, and what happens to a lot of smart, competent practiced gamers when then enter Gw2 raiding... Is the simple phenomenon of joining a moving crowd at the back of the line. Maybe the big group of people funneling into a stadium. You think, 'I've got my life in order, and I don't need to follow these sheep to get in'. And you'd be right. The issue is, that if given time, you'll figure out where the ticket booth is. You'll figure out the path to your seat.

    But it's much easier to follow the crowd. So you think 'I hate this, I'm following these folks. And it's the only way in. If they just had 10 more ticket counters, I could get in. Nobody thinks about the placement of ticket counters... I'm sure I can find out a better way.'

    Then you Google it. And you find efficiency guides. Websites detailing the fastest way in, to the counter, to the seats... The best moment to leave in order to miss a minimum amount of show, but to skip the traffic. So you think 'that's why the ticket line is so clogged! They all use the same efficiency guide!'

    See, the issue is that the crowd isn't all one type of people. They aren't all guide readers. Of the ones who are, only some of them are guide followers. And some of them, didn't need a guide at all, and just figured it out. And some tiny number of them, wrote the guide.

    So, to sum up... OP is right to an extent. But he'd have to find folks who, like him, figured it out and didn't need a guide. And together they'll come up with all sorts of other strategies. But by and large, those folks aren't on fourms. Cause they didn't need a guide. They're spending the time you're spending reading this, on playing. (or life.) And, the folks who read the guide? If you want to be mad at them, for trusting the people who are best at, the thing they want to do.... Then the entirety of human learning needs reexamination. And again, you're right... The folks that write the guide don't write about ways to do it other than the most efficient. But why would they? Millionaires don't write guides about loosing money. And pro ball players don't make videos about missing shots. It's not what they're into. Pro-speed-clear guys making a video or guide on how to 'slowly easy mode a thing' , that they can lazer blitz through... Like, that's like asking Michael Phelps to write a guide titled 'Coping with Silver, my battle with almost not winning as much.' even if the check you offer him is huge, that's just not his bag. Baby.

    The phenomenon of KP.... This is just the crowd, recognizing its sheep status, and looking for a leader. Human psych again. They want folks who they know won't hold them up getting ready to go, who know the route, who can be trusted to save seats, go to the bathroom by themselves without getting lost.... Ect. So it's a bit like turning to your buddy in the stadium parking lot and saying 'dude. I'm not missing this show. If I miss the solo in Welcome Home because I'm helping you find the bathroom.... Again.... You can uber yourself home.'

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    anet could give better incentives for vets to bring along a new player to raid. maybe extra rewards and maybe even campaign a little change the culture of raiding. This game will die without an influx of a new players. But as it stands right now, new players have a very hard time getting over that hurdle of learning fights and getting enough LI because no one wants to play with them. They will leave the game. The community has to start using common sense, and anet could do more.

  • My God, your post hurts me physically. Let's break it down.

    "I use fake LI/KP to not brag about how skilled I am" and yet here you are on the forum bragging of how you think you are more skilled than the average player, so what's that about?

    Your twisted perception of how things work baffles me. The fact that you only did Dhuum 4 times and think you know all the possible outcomes and different RNG situations that can wipe a group screams wishful thinking. The reason why people ask for KP is because there is a number of different outcomes in every encounter that can go wrong. Having killed the boss multiple times means you have seen most of the possible outcomes of what can go wrong and will be more prepared for them than a person who did it only a few times and think they know it all (that's you, in case it's not clear).

    Now let's talk about your solution. Make it harder! LMAO

    Yes making Raids harder will make the Raid population grow (??????????). That makes a lot of sense. Since all we have in GW2 are skilled players that don't play Raids because they find it too easy, even though they don't have KP because they couldn't pug it properly. I don't know which world you live in, but the harder you make things, the fewer people will want to do it, it's not the other way around. Also, how is it that you expect to prove all of your skills that you have if not with the KP system? Do you propose a golem session with all the people in the squad everytime a pug is created? That would make it easier in your conception? Have you played other roles? Chrono Tank, Off Chrono, Druid, Heal Scourge, Heal brand, Quickbrand? Or you are just counting how much DPS you do in a pug and because you're always on the top you feel like Raids are easy for you and you are obviously skilled?

  • @Tuto.7305 said:
    My God, your post hurts me physically. Let's break it down.

    "I use fake LI/KP to not brag about how skilled I am" and yet here you are on the forum bragging of how you think you are more skilled than the average player, so what's that about?

    Your twisted perception of how things work baffles me. The fact that you only did Dhuum 4 times and think you know all the possible outcomes and different RNG situations that can wipe a group screams wishful thinking. The reason why people ask for KP is because there is a number of different outcomes in every encounter that can go wrong. Having killed the boss multiple times means you have seen most of the possible outcomes of what can go wrong and will be more prepared for them than a person who did it only a few times and think they know it all (that's you, in case it's not clear).

    Now let's talk about your solution. Make it harder! LMAO

    Yes making Raids harder will make the Raid population grow (??????????). That makes a lot of sense. Since all we have in GW2 are skilled players that don't play Raids because they find it too easy, even though they don't have KP because they couldn't pug it properly. I don't know which world you live in, but the harder you make things, the fewer people will want to do it, it's not the other way around. Also, how is it that you expect to prove all of your skills that you have if not with the KP system? Do you propose a golem session with all the people in the squad everytime a pug is created? That would make it easier in your conception? Have you played other roles? Chrono Tank, Off Chrono, Druid, Heal Scourge, Heal brand, Quickbrand? Or you are just counting how much DPS you do in a pug and because you're always on the top you feel like Raids are easy for you and you are obviously skilled?

    this is the cultural issue, some people think mmorpg content is all about showing your ability in raids, 'i'm an important player because i can clear a raid, im important because ive got gear x, im important because i have dps y'. This is something that has oozed like a poison from games like wow and tools like dmg meters. mmorpg at its root come from the concept of a group of players fighting through a dungeon together and winning loot, not repeating a boss 40 times and burning kitten into your memory muscles and min maxing gear stats. What pve and raids needs is content that the majority of the community enjoy player together.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Tuto.7305 said:
    My God, your post hurts me physically. Let's break it down.

    "I use fake LI/KP to not brag about how skilled I am" and yet here you are on the forum bragging of how you think you are more skilled than the average player, so what's that about?

    Your twisted perception of how things work baffles me. The fact that you only did Dhuum 4 times and think you know all the possible outcomes and different RNG situations that can wipe a group screams wishful thinking. The reason why people ask for KP is because there is a number of different outcomes in every encounter that can go wrong. Having killed the boss multiple times means you have seen most of the possible outcomes of what can go wrong and will be more prepared for them than a person who did it only a few times and think they know it all (that's you, in case it's not clear).

    Now let's talk about your solution. Make it harder! LMAO

    Yes making Raids harder will make the Raid population grow (??????????). That makes a lot of sense. Since all we have in GW2 are skilled players that don't play Raids because they find it too easy, even though they don't have KP because they couldn't pug it properly. I don't know which world you live in, but the harder you make things, the fewer people will want to do it, it's not the other way around. Also, how is it that you expect to prove all of your skills that you have if not with the KP system? Do you propose a golem session with all the people in the squad everytime a pug is created? That would make it easier in your conception? Have you played other roles? Chrono Tank, Off Chrono, Druid, Heal Scourge, Heal brand, Quickbrand? Or you are just counting how much DPS you do in a pug and because you're always on the top you feel like Raids are easy for you and you are obviously skilled?

    this is the cultural issue, some people think mmorpg content is all about showing your ability in raids, 'i'm an important player because i can clear a raid, im important because ive got gear x, im important because i have dps y'. This is something that has oozed like a poison from games like wow and tools like dmg meters. mmorpg at its root come from the concept of a group of players fighting through a dungeon together and winning loot, not repeating a boss 40 times and burning kitten into your memory muscles and min maxing gear stats. What pve and raids needs is content that the majority of the community enjoy player together.

    There's open world for those that don't like the existing raids. Not all content in the game must appeal to everyone. This content was designed for those that wanted a challenge or at least more of a challenge than what's being offered elsewhere in the game.

  • People want experienced players for raiding because their time is limited and they want whatever they perceive increases their chances of successfully clearing a raid.
    Consider the gap where a pug can't clear 1 boss in 2 hours whereas a good static can clear 4 wings in that time. A lot of raids are such that one person can cause a 'GG' for everyone [having been responsible for that myself a few times] .

    My view is that there will never be a way for the developers to prevent players from seeking 'only the best' -- but there may be a way to prevent unecessesary toxicity.

    This is my proposal:

    1. Account wide completion of PVE content is stored as data and players can see the number of completions that they themselves have done (Would apply to raids, t4 fractals, and related CMs)
    2. LFG's creators can set completion filters where joining a squad is limited on a certain number of completions of a particular set of content.
    3. The catch is that the squad/party leader cannot set a filter higher than what they themselves have completed.
    4. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly. Having party members in the raid who have not completed it before [or only completed it a small number of times] increases the rewards given to all participants in the party or raid squad. People who've done raiding a little bit should be compensated by the game on bringing non-raiders through the content

    If someone wants to demand a lot of KP they're free to do so, but it calls into question why they don't just use the filter if they are that good [perhaps because they don't have that much themselves?]. I think demanding various kinds of killproof becomes embarassing for the people in question in such circumstances.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AdmiralSnackbar.4859 said:
    Lastly, and perhaps most importantly. Having party members in the raid who have not completed it before [or only completed it a small number of times] increases the rewards given to all participants in the party or raid squad. People who've done raiding a little bit should be compensated by the game on bringing non-raiders through the content

    Although this idea sounds fine on paper, what would prevent the raiding teams from creating alt accounts to get those extra rewards? Meaning in the end, less non-raiders get into teams because the spots will be filled by those alts.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Kp system would be fine if it wasnt timegated. It fooks people who want indulge in hardcore content with that mentality, forcing casual nature upon them. For the community it doesnt matter if someone got 50kp in a day or in 6yrs as long that person has it and it gives a chance to new players to catch up fast if the grind a lot.

  • dodgerrule.8739dodgerrule.8739 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    KP system can easily be faked. Having insights means you have just been there when it was defeated the person could have easily leached all their kills.

    The kp system will always be a failure at determining whether or not someone is worthy to raid.

    Your best bet is to make a dedicated team yourself and train them from scratch. If anyone leaves then replace them with someone who is newer and be trained by the team.

    This is the only way raids can truly be balanced for new players and old players and not based of mechanic skips and or pure damage or what I like to call (smashy smashy can’t go wrong but is always wrong.)

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @dodgerrule.8739 said:
    KP system can easily be faked. Having insights means you have just been there when it was defeated the person could have easily leached all their kills.

    The kp system will always be a failure at determining whether or not someone is worthy to raid.

    Your best bet is to make a dedicated team yourself and train them from scratch. If anyone leaves then replace them with someone who is newer and be trained by the team.

    This is the only way raids can truly be balanced for new players and old players and not based of mechanic skips and or pure damage or what I like to call (smashy smashy can’t go wrong but is always wrong.)

    I'm sorry, but it doesn't follow. They way you create your team has no impact whatsoever on how the encounters are balanced. If there's any connection, it goes the other way.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    it is not dead
    we use https://killproof.me if want be sure

  • @lare.5129 said:
    it is not dead
    we use https://killproof.me if want be sure

    Not everyone is going to use that lol. API keys aren’t personal keys for your account if someone puts it on there they’d be giving up privacy

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    @dodgerrule.8739 said:
    Not everyone is going to use that lol.

    yes, not everyone. Only who want be in party memebers who is without fake kp

    API keys aren’t personal keys for your account if someone puts it on there they’d be giving up privacy

    about that privacy we talk? you can check my cms 700+ kp and be sure that this is not fake. and this is not ctrl+v or macro

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dodgerrule.8739 said:
    API keys aren’t personal keys for your account if someone puts it on there they’d be giving up privacy

    What privacy are you talking about? How is the amount of KP you have (something that you are supposedly giving out anyway) "private" information?

  • Cameron.6450Cameron.6450 Member ✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @AdmiralSnackbar.4859 said:
    Lastly, and perhaps most importantly. Having party members in the raid who have not completed it before [or only completed it a small number of times] increases the rewards given to all participants in the party or raid squad. People who've done raiding a little bit should be compensated by the game on bringing non-raiders through the content

    Although this idea sounds fine on paper, what would prevent the raiding teams from creating alt accounts to get those extra rewards? Meaning in the end, less non-raiders get into teams because the spots will be filled by those alts.

    You can't prevent that. But given that you can't raid on an account that hasn't purchased any expansions, it's not something that's able to be abused with f2p. Also given that raids give such a small amount of liquid gold, even doubling the reward from 2g to 4g with a new player, I highly doubt that anything like this would effect the economy anywhere near the scale of something like istan or dragonfall farms when they were released.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.