Jormag's Plan

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Khnemu.6029 said:

@"Kalavier.1097" said:And/or there are more individuals or groups capable of summoning ice elementals/constructs and snowstorms then Jormag.Crecia commented that the construct seemed to have been summoned by a shaman, not Jormag. But as far as the Commander and everyone knows, Jormag is asleep. We've seen with Scarlet that dragons can communicate with their minions while slumbering (or it could even be Drakkar doing the communicating on Jormag's behalf), but they have no reason to suspect Jormag is awake yet. Taimi or the Norns would've probably said something, and like with Mordremoth, there would've probably been a loud roar that could be heard across the region.

True. And technically speaking, all we know about the construct is that it was summoned by an ice magic user (and that it'll return next episode, but the Commander doesn't know that). This naturally does not mean "Jormag" nor even "Sons of Svanir" - there's a very wide gap between "ice magic user" and "Sons of Svanir" for who can fill such roles. And the construct looks nothing like a traditional icebrood either. The only reason why we, the players, suspect Jormag legitamately is because we know the storyline is called "The Icebrood Saga" and that the trailer for the season features Jormag's voice.

If this was just "Season 5" and we didn't get that trailer, the only implication of Jormag interacting with others would be the Suspicious Travelers; and without them, we'd have no real reason to suspect Jormag's direct involvement. Wouldn't stop theorycrafting, ofc, but the idea that "the Commander is stupid for not suspecting Jormag" comes from mentality that exists outside the plot.

While there'd be people theorycrafting Bangar's been influence, I bet there'd be more people going "how does Bangar plan to wake up Jormag before being influenced?"

[perilisk.1874]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The only reason why we, the players, suspect Jormag legitamately is because we know the storyline is called "The Icebrood Saga" and that the trailer for the season features Jormag's voice.

That's going too far. Jormag isn't an unknown quantity like Mordremoth or Selbbub -- its corruption has been known since EOTN, and there are lots of people in the Shiverpeaks who have firsthand knowledge about its methods. The ability of dragons in general to wield influence through followers or artifacts, even while asleep, should be well documented by the Pact (and someone like Braham should know the story of Jora and the Nornbear). And it's not like it would be an out of left-field guess -- Bangar raised the issue himself by suggesting he was seeking out the dragon as a source of power for the Charr. Even in-game logic would raise the possibility that this is basically Jormag's MO at work. The ice storms would then be corroborating evidence.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Jormag isn't an unknown quantity, true. But Jormag is a sleeping quantity. At best, it would only make sense for it to be a dragon champion of Jormag, not Jormag itself. But think about it: the Commander has interacted with plenty of icebrood throughout their carrier (especially norn commanders), there is no reason for them to not connect the ice construct to icebrood, if it at all resembled icebrood (and in truth, it rather doesn't - it's a deep blue, true, but not nearly the black-and-deep-blue of Jormag's corruption).

Elder Dragons never showcase the ability create new influences while asleep directly. Drakkar was only able to corrupt Svanir because Svanir channeled magic into Drakkar; Mordremoth was only able to influence Scarlet because Scarlet touched Mordremoth's mind via Omadd's Machine. In GW1, the destroyers are made by the Great Destroyer, not Primordus, and similarly Kralkatorrik made no influence while sleeping. In other words, all influence of Elder Dragons while they sleep are caused by their champions who wake up first, or because people idiotically tapped into the Elder Dragon while they slept.

There's no reason presented in the story to assume Bangar has some artifact akin to the Sanguinary Blade (yes, there is the Corrupted Artifact lying in his office, but this isn't presented in the story, and even then it may not have corruptive qualities), and there's no showcase of icebrood magic or dragon champions present yet. The presence of a single snowstorm and ice construct could have a dozen explanations that isn't "Jormag!"

So I don't think it's going to far to say the only reason why we can confidently attribute that snowstorm to Jormag - which we're not even certain about in all honesty - is because we know Jormag is going to be a focus this season due to the Season's given name and the trailer.

Not only that, but there's mention of a snowstorm brewing during Bad Blood story instance, well before we try to chase Bangar into the Shiverpeaks. This dialogue very heavily implies the snowstorm to be a natural storm, with a slow and known build up, which got taken advantage of.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Khnemu.6029 said:So there's been something I've been thinking of...

Looking at the announcement and the trailer, Jormag doesn't seem to want us dead. They want us as allies to bring about a new Tyria.

So then I got to thinking, why was the Commander invited to the Charr celebrations? If you're playing a Charr specifically, it makes sense, but why invite the Commander in general? Braham would've gone without us, I'm sure, if you mention it as a sort of Norn/Charr peace offer. Was it to inspire fear with Aurene? Or was it something else?Kralkatorik was one of the main problems the charr have faced over the past decade. They've been fighting it's minions in the brand for many years.For them not to invite the slayer of this dragon to their celebration would have been disrespectful to someone many charr consider the greatest military leader in the world currently.

Does Jormag want the mole that we suspect is in the group to lead the Commander to him? Is that why the mole left just enough clues around for us to follow Bangar (rumors, obvious-looking bad guys, stealing the bow, etc.)? What if the colossus was not actually to stop us from following, but to stop us from turning around (as in, maybe it wouldn't have left toward the village)?Then the ice winds wouldn't have impeded our progress forward and forced us back after defeating it.

There is no way that Jormag looks at the slayer of three dragons, the life blood of the world, as a potential ally.

[Yannir.4132]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Depending on the length of season 5, I could easily see Ryland being a mid-season boss while Bangar the season finale (or penultimate boss), with Drakkar hopefully given a role bigger than a mere world boss. This is assuming The Icebrood Saga is 6 (or 8) episodes long, and Jormag, like Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik, is involved in more than one storyline.

I'm hoping that they'll come to their senses rather than being bosses somewhere down the line. Especially Bangar, somebody needs to call the Commander out on his BS. Anti-hero characters are so much better than outright villains. Having them be right and wrong at the same time is much better storytelling than black and white storytelling.Besides, who knows if we're all wrong and Bangar actually manages to do it? He's not dumb, and knows it's not as simple as marching to Jormag and claiming the ED for himself.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

I don't think Bangar falls under the anti-hero trope in any way shape or form. Canach is an anti-hero (who's reigned himself in to becoming borderline hero) as was Sayida (in technicality; not really shown though).

Bangar is more anti-villain material at best. He's a charr supremacist - a racist - and a warmonger. There is no "hero" qualities in that. He's a villain who, in the backstage of GW2 lore, has remained a "good guy" simply for the fact that he was smart enough to realize he had no chance at the time. But with a larger portion of all four legions now under his thumb, he has a small chance, and nowhere else to direct his ire as he has so far.

Ryland - he could become an anti-hero, but I don't think he's anti-hero material based on what we've seen of him. He comes off as being too noble and honorable to be an anti-hero, who are typically honorless and willing to do dirty deeds on their own accord by default. Ryland seems to be coming off more as a "zealous to a fault villain", where they're not strictly evil themselves, but they're loyal to a villainous person (Bangar) and does dirty deeds because of that loyalty until either their untimely death or they become redeemed (similar to the Herald of Balthazar, except Devona had been enslaved to Balthazar's commands rather than strictly being loyal, or similar to Valette Wi from S3).

[Randulf.7614]

Isn't there dialogue about the storm being too intense or at least wrong in someway for the time of year? I'm sure one of the NPC's indicates the storm is more than what it seems in that final instance or in the post action npc bits. I haven't memorised the details, but I'm sure there is implication about the storm being more than a natural occurence.

[Kalavier.1097]

@"Randulf.7614" said:Isn't there dialogue about the storm being too intense or at least wrong in someway for the time of year? I'm sure one of the NPC's indicates the storm is more than what it seems in that final instance or in the post action npc bits. I haven't memorised the details, but I'm sure there is implication about the storm being more than a natural occurence.

There is some dialogue earlier on about there being a weird "cold snap" that patrols in the border of the shiverpeaks region are dealing with. The weather/storm as the commander and group start climbing the mountain is somewhat hindering, but they push on. After the icebrood construct (we know it's icebrood because name, obviously Rytlock can't see a name and health bar lol) dies, there is a sudden intense blizzard/storm that forces the group to retreat down the mountain. In the strike mission they mention scouting the pass to see if it's safe, and the weather appearing to be purposefully hindering them from following Bangar.

It's one of those "It could be natural, but the timing is just perfect for Bangar... is he having somebody do this?"

One thought I just had is maybe killing the construct caused the sudden storm.

[Tremor.7481]

Construct and storms, it's entirely possible the Sons of Savnir are lending aid, especially with the construct versus the storm

Bangar may not even be aware of it, they have their own shamans after all, and they have their own reasons for wanting to isolate Vigil encampments (the best resupply route runs through Grothmar, it's why Almorra is there).

I think the main reason for bringing in the Commander is to ensure getting Braham by calling in Dragon's Watch. Outsider observers note Braham has a lot of influence in Norn society, but Braham doesn't seem to be aware of the leverage he holds with his people. An invite to him alone and NOT bringing along the Champion of Tyria's Elder Dragon could look suspicious.

Bangar also seems convinced the Commander has as much control over Aurena as they do their raptor, so before going for Jormag, Bangar probably wanted to pick up some Elder Dragon riding masteries, as it were.

[Khnemu.6029]

@"mindcircus.1506" said:There is no way that Jormag looks at the slayer of three dragons, the life blood of the world, as a potential ally.Wouldn't you rather have someone who could kill you and has the ear of one of your "fellow" Elder Dragons as an ally than an enemy? You fight them, you risk death. You convince them to side with you, and you not only add their power to your forces, you protect your own hide. The announcement for season 5 they did specifically mentions that Jormag knows the world order is changing and they're adapting to it.

[perilisk.1874]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:So I don't think it's going to far to say the only reason why we can confidently attribute that snowstorm to Jormag - which we're not even certain about in all honesty - is because we know Jormag is going to be a focus this season due to the Season's given name and the trailer.

While I can't speak as to what the Commander could discern about the construct, the game leaves no doubt -- it is an "icebrood" construct. There isn't really another reasonable explanation for the unexpected ice storms (unless we're going to be pedantic and ascribe it to Jormag's minion or follower instead of the actual dragon).

[Kalavier.1097]

@perilisk.1874 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:So I don't think it's going to far to say the only reason why we can confidently attribute that snowstorm to Jormag - which we're not even certain about in all honesty - is because we know Jormag is going to be a focus this season due to the Season's given name and the trailer.

While I can't speak as to what the Commander could discern about the construct, the game leaves no doubt -- it is an "icebrood" construct. There isn't really another reasonable explanation for the unexpected ice storms (unless we're going to be pedantic and ascribe it to Jormag's minion or follower instead of the actual dragon).

Oh, we know exactly that the storm is related to Jormag. As a player/outside view we can easily link together the various clues. A charr patrol mentioned a sudden cold snap, and how they felt watched while walking through an open field. That the unexpected cold is making them feel like they hear/see stuff.

It's just that in-universe, the commander/allies may not be linking the storm to Jormag, as the dragon is confirmed to be sleeping right now based on all intelligence reports.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@perilisk.1874 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:So I don't think it's going to far to say the only reason why we can confidently attribute that snowstorm to Jormag - which we're not even certain about in all honesty - is because we know Jormag is going to be a focus this season due to the Season's given name and the trailer.

While I can't speak as to what the Commander could discern about the construct, the game leaves no doubt -- it is an "icebrood" construct. There isn't really another reasonable explanation for the unexpected ice storms (unless we're going to be pedantic and ascribe it to Jormag's minion or follower instead of the actual dragon).

To be fair, ascribing it to a minion or Son of Svanir instead of Jormag itself is a pretty important distinction, especially when we're discussing whether or not Bangar has been influenced by Jormag.

That said, we, the players, can be fairly certain the snowstorm was not natural. My point is bashing on the Commander because they're not going "Jormag's pulling the strings!" because we have solid reason to believe such due to OoC reasons, is silly.

[Rognik.2579]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:To be fair, ascribing it to a minion or Son of Svanir instead of Jormag itself is a pretty important distinction, especially when we're discussing whether or not Bangar has been influenced by Jormag.Is it? I thought Svanir (the original, Jora's brother) being influenced by Drakkar was pretty much the same thing as if Jormag him/her/itself had influenced him. Sure, Jormag may not be awake or still far up north, but that doesn't mean the influence isn't as far reaching as Hoelbrak. A minion aiding an action is not that different from the dragon's will.

[PseudoNewb.5468]

@Khnemu.6029 said:

@Kalavier.1097 said:And/or there are more individuals or groups capable of summoning ice elementals/constructs and snowstorms then Jormag.Crecia commented that the construct seemed to have been summoned by a shaman, not Jormag. But as far as the Commander and everyone knows, Jormag is asleep. We've seen with Scarlet that dragons can communicate with their minions while slumbering (or it could even be Drakkar doing the communicating on Jormag's behalf), but they have no reason to suspect Jormag is awake yet. Taimi or the Norns would've probably said something, and like with Mordremoth, there would've probably been a loud roar that could be heard across the region.

Crecia, also notes that this shaman is nothing that the Charr legions, nor Bangar's renegades have. So, in her mind, the list of possible sources are getting quite small. It seems she is contemplating external influences, especially since she will not believe Bangar's actions are of his own will. And the ability to bend the will of her imperator might be even more extraordinary than summoning of the construct. I think Crecia is not far from connecting the dots, evidence of icebrood is all she needs to declare Jormag as the outside influence, even if it would be a premature conclusion, she would be right.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Rognik.2579 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:To be fair, ascribing it to a minion or Son of Svanir instead of Jormag itself is a pretty important distinction, especially when we're discussing whether or not Bangar has been influenced by Jormag.Is it? I thought Svanir (the original, Jora's brother) being influenced by Drakkar was pretty much the same thing as if Jormag him/her/itself had influenced him. Sure, Jormag may not be awake or still far up north, but that doesn't mean the influence isn't as far reaching as Hoelbrak. A minion aiding an action is not that different from the dragon's will.

While a dragon minion (and champions especially) function off of the will of their Elder Dragon, that doesn't mean they require direct let alone explicit orders to act out. And the indication is that the "will of the dragon" is often ambiguous or general-reaching and it's up to the more intelligent minions (e.g., champions like Drakkar) to interpret the will and figure out how to fulfill it.

Jormag's will could be "assist Bangar", or it could be "find me an army to corrupt", or it could be "find me magic so that I may rise again", and all three could result in a dragon champion tempting and assisting Bangar in some form or another.

Besides that, there's also a difference between "the dragon's will" and "the dragon directly interfering from a distance".