Charr Players: How does your character feel about the alliance with Flame Legion?

[arenta.2953]

well my char is a female engineer working with the ash legions.

and her father is a.....ex? flame legion shaman.

honestly, had this occured early in her personal story. she'd have been PIIIISSSSEEEDD.

but now. she's less concerned with it and more concerned with inquest being everywhere, and of coarse, dragons.

doesn't mean she'll trust them. if she has to go on a solo mission with them, i doubt she's gonna agree.

she'll give individual members a chance, when mixed with other charr legions like iron or ash. but it will be a while until she trusts them.

---

from an out of game lore perspective. i am worried about flame legion returning. i don't want them to become just another legion. aka accepting females, accepting orders from other legions without complaint. and so on.

their theme isn't a friendly one, an its something that, if change occurs, i want to see happen SLOWLY. not over night. like accepting females. not just 1 mission and then "ok females allowed". no, take his daughter for example. have them begin to accept (grudgingly) as she grows up and accomplishes alot. over the course of a long period of time. making it realistic to how beliefs change not overnight, but slowly

heck i'd like to see it develop in a way where they accept their own females, but still hold negative views to females of other legions. considering how long this legions has operated on its own against the other legions. they seem like they've got alot of pride and grudges. and it wont be simple to remove these, but rather a generational thing. multi generational

[Weindrasi.3805]

@"arenta.2953" said:well my char is a female engineer working with the ash legions.

and her father is a.....ex? flame legion shaman.

honestly, had this occured early in her personal story. she'd have been PIIIISSSSEEEDD.

but now. she's less concerned with it and more concerned with inquest being everywhere, and of coarse, dragons.

doesn't mean she'll trust them. if she has to go on a solo mission with them, i doubt she's gonna agree.

she'll give individual members a chance, when mixed with other charr legions like iron or ash. but it will be a while until she trusts them.

---

from an out of game lore perspective. i am worried about flame legion returning. i don't want them to become just another legion. aka accepting females, accepting orders from other legions without complaint. and so on.

their theme isn't a friendly one, an its something that, if change occurs, i want to see happen SLOWLY. not over night. like accepting females. not just 1 mission and then "ok females allowed". no, take his daughter for example. have them begin to accept (grudgingly) as she grows up and accomplishes alot. over the course of a long period of time. making it realistic to how beliefs change not overnight, but slowly

heck i'd like to see it develop in a way where they accept their own females, but still hold negative views to females of other legions. considering how long this legions has operated on its own against the other legions. they seem like they've got alot of pride and grudges. and it wont be simple to remove these, but rather a generational thing. multi generational

Agreed with regard to the lore, however, I think a lot of the slow-changing-of-views has been beginning to happen behind the scenes in the 7 years since Gaheron died... and probably before. Flame Legion has been fighting against females on the battlefield for hundreds of years--unlike cultures where women are universally oppressed, Flame Legion is aware that females are capable whether they want to be or not. There have probably always been a number of men in Flame who are like "yeah, women can do the job, I've fought them on the battlefield/seen them defeat male soldiers/seen them lead enemy warbands," but who--just being soldiers--obey their superiors and keep quiet.

Plus, Flame Legion DOES know their history--the traitor Bathea who gathered women to oppose God-worship, and the traitor Kalla who broke Flame Legion's control over the charr.Flame Legion has learned the hard way that worshiping powerful beings as Gods is a terrible idea--first with the titans, then the destroyers. Then they moved on to "Okay, well maybe worshiping NON-CHARR beings is dumb, but a CHARR god..." ....and thus, Gaheron Baelfire showed up. Gaheron-worship also ended badly.

A thoughtful Flame member might think... women became slaves because they defied the Gods... except they were right all along, the Gods are dead, and now we're refugees... so maaaaaybe we made an oopsie.

Considering all this, I think cultural change can happen in the Flame Legion much faster than it has in real-world cultures. That said, you're right it still won't happen over night. I hope Arenanet portrays some of that tension.

[arenta.2953]

@Weindrasi.3805 said:

@"arenta.2953" said:well my char is a female engineer working with the ash legions.

and her father is a.....ex? flame legion shaman.

honestly, had this occured early in her personal story. she'd have been PIIIISSSSEEEDD.

but now. she's less concerned with it and more concerned with inquest being everywhere, and of coarse, dragons.

doesn't mean she'll trust them. if she has to go on a solo mission with them, i doubt she's gonna agree.

she'll give individual members a chance, when mixed with other charr legions like iron or ash. but it will be a while until she trusts them.

---

from an out of game lore perspective. i am worried about flame legion returning. i don't want them to become just another legion. aka accepting females, accepting orders from other legions without complaint. and so on.

their theme isn't a friendly one, an its something that, if change occurs, i want to see happen SLOWLY. not over night. like accepting females. not just 1 mission and then "ok females allowed". no, take his daughter for example. have them begin to accept (grudgingly) as she grows up and accomplishes alot. over the course of a long period of time. making it realistic to how beliefs change not overnight, but slowly

heck i'd like to see it develop in a way where they accept their own females, but still hold negative views to females of other legions. considering how long this legions has operated on its own against the other legions. they seem like they've got alot of pride and grudges. and it wont be simple to remove these, but rather a generational thing. multi generational

Agreed with regard to the lore, however, I think a lot of the slow-changing-of-views has been beginning to happen behind the scenes in the 7 years since Gaheron died... and probably before. Flame Legion has been fighting against females on the battlefield for hundreds of years--unlike cultures where women are universally oppressed, Flame Legion is aware that females are capable whether they want to be or not. There have probably always been a number of men in Flame who are like "yeah, women can do the job, I've fought them on the battlefield/seen them defeat male soldiers/seen them lead enemy warbands," but who--just being soldiers--obey their superiors and keep quiet.

Plus, Flame Legion DOES know their history--the traitor Bathea who gathered women to oppose God-worship, and the traitor Kalla who broke Flame Legion's control over the charr.Flame Legion has learned the hard way that worshiping powerful beings as Gods is a terrible idea--first with the titans, then the destroyers. Then they moved on to "Okay, well maybe worshiping NON-CHARR beings is dumb, but a CHARR god..." ....and thus, Gaheron Baelfire showed up. Gaheron-worship also ended badly.

A thoughtful Flame member might think... women became slaves because they defied the Gods... except they were right all along, the Gods are dead, and now we're refugees... so maaaaaybe we made an oopsie.

Considering all this, I think cultural change can happen in the Flame Legion much faster than it has in real-world cultures. That said, you're right it still won't happen over night. I hope Arenanet portrays some of that tension.

yeah, like over the course of this living story, is a good period of time. not 1 mission, but the whole thing.

example:mission 1: we've met the female cub of the charr in charge of flame legion. we also learn flame legion cubs have been "forced" to be given over to blood legion

mission 2: after the mass defection, flame legion is worried, and want at least some of the cubs back. they are denied and the female cub(swear i gonna look up her name after writing this) dissapears along with the other cubs (turns out later blood legion is hiding that the rebels took a large number of them)

mission 3: fighting this new force, we occasionally see corrupted.....icebranded? charr, those of high ranks maintain self thought, but most are mindless or semi mindless minions. this includes some of the cubs we find. most are still unaccounted for

mission 4: we meet the remaining cubs, who have rallied against the rebels. but being where they are. ultimately end up in an ice prison until they submit. we rescue them

mission 5: being so far north, sending them back home isnt really an option, and so these cubs end up fighting time to time as the camp is under attack. the female charr among them.

mission 6: after multiple fights, large casulties, and battlefield promotions. that female cub is admitted into the flame legion ranks as a (...low level officer?), reluctantly as they need fighters, but are grudgingly against enlisting cubs(even if they have been part of the fight thus far) and females.

following the end of the livign story, casulties are enough that more than a few females are in the flame legions ranks due to shortages in troops. and those higher up in the flame legion generally accept that it was for the best, and is a thing they will continue with.

future expansion or living story after this, we will occasionally see this female cub(grow up) time to time, generally in charge of a warband or slowly increasing in rank.

enough time, and circumstances, to make it believable. choosign between traditions and beliefs of the past, vs surviving by adapting in the present.

it ironically mirrors America in WW2. where so many of the work force were overseas, alot of females took industry jobs previously frowned on. following the war this was never reversed and just became a thing going on. and gradually grew more and more.

what do you think? =)

[Weindrasi.3805]

@arenta.2953 said:

@Weindrasi.3805 said:

@arenta.2953 said:well my char is a female engineer working with the ash legions.

and her father is a.....ex? flame legion shaman.

honestly, had this occured early in her personal story. she'd have been PIIIISSSSEEEDD.

but now. she's less concerned with it and more concerned with inquest being everywhere, and of coarse, dragons.

doesn't mean she'll trust them. if she has to go on a solo mission with them, i doubt she's gonna agree.

she'll give individual members a chance, when mixed with other charr legions like iron or ash. but it will be a while until she trusts them.

---

from an out of game lore perspective. i am worried about flame legion returning. i don't want them to become just another legion. aka accepting females, accepting orders from other legions without complaint. and so on.

their theme isn't a friendly one, an its something that, if change occurs, i want to see happen SLOWLY. not over night. like accepting females. not just 1 mission and then "ok females allowed". no, take his daughter for example. have them begin to accept (grudgingly) as she grows up and accomplishes alot. over the course of a long period of time. making it realistic to how beliefs change not overnight, but slowly

heck i'd like to see it develop in a way where they accept their own females, but still hold negative views to females of other legions. considering how long this legions has operated on its own against the other legions. they seem like they've got alot of pride and grudges. and it wont be simple to remove these, but rather a generational thing. multi generational

Agreed with regard to the lore, however, I think a lot of the slow-changing-of-views has been beginning to happen behind the scenes in the 7 years since Gaheron died... and probably before. Flame Legion has been fighting against females on the battlefield for hundreds of years--unlike cultures where women are universally oppressed, Flame Legion is aware that females are capable whether they want to be or not. There have probably always been a number of men in Flame who are like "yeah, women can do the job, I've fought them on the battlefield/seen them defeat male soldiers/seen them lead enemy warbands," but who--just being soldiers--obey their superiors and keep quiet.

Plus, Flame Legion DOES know their history--the traitor Bathea who gathered women to oppose God-worship, and the traitor Kalla who broke Flame Legion's control over the charr.Flame Legion has learned the hard way that worshiping powerful beings as Gods is a terrible idea--first with the titans, then the destroyers. Then they moved on to "Okay, well maybe worshiping NON-CHARR beings is dumb, but a CHARR god..." ....and thus, Gaheron Baelfire showed up. Gaheron-worship also ended badly.

A thoughtful Flame member might think... women became slaves because they defied the Gods... except they were right all along, the Gods are dead, and now we're refugees... so maaaaaybe we made an oopsie.

Considering all this, I think cultural change can happen in the Flame Legion much faster than it has in real-world cultures. That said, you're right it still won't happen over night. I hope Arenanet portrays some of that tension.

yeah, like over the course of this living story, is a good period of time. not 1 mission, but the whole thing.

example:mission 1: we've met the female cub of the charr in charge of flame legion. we also learn flame legion cubs have been "forced" to be given over to blood legion

mission 2: after the mass defection, flame legion is worried, and want at least some of the cubs back. they are denied and the female cub(swear i gonna look up her name after writing this) dissapears along with the other cubs (turns out later blood legion is hiding that the rebels took a large number of them)

mission 3: fighting this new force, we occasionally see corrupted.....icebranded? charr, those of high ranks maintain self thought, but most are mindless or semi mindless minions. this includes some of the cubs we find. most are still unaccounted for

mission 4: we meet the remaining cubs, who have rallied against the rebels. but being where they are. ultimately end up in an ice prison until they submit. we rescue them

mission 5: being so far north, sending them back home isnt really an option, and so these cubs end up fighting time to time as the camp is under attack. the female charr among them.

mission 6: after multiple fights, large casulties, and battlefield promotions. that female cub is admitted into the flame legion ranks as a (...low level officer?), reluctantly as they need fighters, but are grudgingly against enlisting cubs(even if they have been part of the fight thus far) and females.

following the end of the livign story, casulties are enough that more than a few females are in the flame legions ranks due to shortages in troops. and those higher up in the flame legion generally accept that it was for the best, and is a thing they will continue with.

future expansion or living story after this, we will occasionally see this female cub(grow up) time to time, generally in charge of a warband or slowly increasing in rank.

enough time, and circumstances, to make it believable. choosign between traditions and beliefs of the past, vs surviving by adapting in the present.

it ironically mirrors America in WW2. where so many of the work force were overseas, alot of females took industry jobs previously frowned on. following the war this was never reversed and just became a thing going on. and gradually grew more and more.

what do you think? =)

I think your idea of exploring female roles in Flame Legion, and seeing that evolution over the length of the Living Story, is a great idea. I think with regard to that cub (Prisca), Arenanet plans to show her father struggling a little bit. In the recent Guild Chat episode, they talked about Prisca and Efram, and basically said that Efram has learned the hard way that hate and bigotry are wrong (over time, after suffering greatly).Efram has done everything he has, because he wants a better life for Prisca--but he still isn't perfect. As they described it, his progress is going to be a "two steps forward, one step back" sort of thing. My guess is that the "one step back" will be seen as Prisca learns to fight, or gets in situations that female Flame Legion have traditionally been barred from.

I don't think the storyline will go exactly as you described. To maintain their rating, they are limited in how much they can portray children fighting and dying. I also think that Prisca is way too young to have gained any rank/graduated the Fahrar by the time the Living Story gets finished. She'd have to go from "fluffy little kid" to "young adult" in a matter of months.

All the adult females have been drafted in as soldiers already--probably because, in addition to Flame Legion becoming more open, it's become a matter of life-and-death. So many male soldiers are dead, and the remaining Flame Legion are refugees living in tents. So, the females are in the warbands--but probably mostly under male Legionnaires. For them, I think the main struggle isn't going to come from close-minded males. The males have basically accepted "Hey, we're about to go extinct, get more soldiers or die". I think the main struggle is going to come from the adult females themselves. Listening to NPC conversations, some of the females don't want to be soldiers and are afraid. The hardest part is going to be for them to accept massive cultural change, learn to fight in a short period of time, and feel comfortable in new roles.

They may also be at a disadvantage in terms of gaining military rank, because while the males had the fahrar and a lifetime of practice to be soldiers, the females were thrown into the job with no experience and must learn as they go--or die.

[Rogue.4756]

My charr is a fictional character and therefore doesn't think on its own and therefore doesn't care.

[deatine.2498]

Well, my father was a Sorcerous Shaman and I am a Guardian, so I am not unfamiliar with magic, the advantages of burning shit to the ground, and being utterly ridiculed.
I am aware that the only difference between me and an innocent Flame legion cub today is the fact that I burn blue.

I for one welcome our lost sisters and brothers back into our ranks for a united future. They have no choice but behave because we will be watching.Lots of Flame were just following orders, quite some actually opposed those orders, so I have hope. They are invited to follow better orders to reach worthier goals.

[Jora.5471]

How does your character feel about the alliance with Flame Legion?

ONE CHARRRRR

[Canker Bush XI.7423]

My charr main is loving this. With relations opening up between them, he can now openly court a flame damsel. Even with rights granted back to women folk, they will be deeply scarred for several generations. As Baron Goldlocke comes from a rather twisted backdrop and is of actual noble stock, it is only right that he exercises his sexism by marrying a fierce charress who can keep quiet and domestic. She's gonna be busy making sure there are heirs aplenty.

You can't get a charr doxy like that from other legions, especially Ash where the chief tom is a dam.His half-sister would feel differently altogether. And she doesn't approve of notions like "charr marriage". Free love or get a lover who won't blow your cover as a philanderer.The half-brother is actively opposed to Flame, and is secretly plotting their full extinction.

[Kumouta.4985]

a little bit guilty that i slaughtered hundreds upon hundreds of them without feeling a thing.

[Telwyn.1630]

@"Canker Bush XI.7423" said:My charr main is loving this. With relations opening up between them, he can now openly court a flame damsel. Even with rights granted back to women folk, they will be deeply scarred for several generations. As Baron Goldlocke comes from a rather twisted backdrop and is of actual noble stock, it is only right that he exercises his sexism by marrying a fierce charress who can keep quiet and domestic. She's gonna be busy making sure there are heirs aplenty.

You can't get a charr doxy like that from other legions, especially Ash where the chief tom is a dam.His half-sister would feel differently altogether. And she doesn't approve of notions like "charr marriage". Free love or get a lover who won't blow your cover as a philanderer.The half-brother is actively opposed to Flame, and is secretly plotting their full extinction.

Could not agree more the female charr of flame or more friendly and hopefully those female charr will be able to teach it to their daughters as well that they do not have to be so hostile like the rest of the legions are.

[DietPepsi.4371]

My Charr Main, Chimie Pepin [0], is a member of the Adamant Guard (Iron Legion). His Warband is part of a Foreign Intelligence Treaty between the Adamant Guard and The Seraph, whom share intel about potential and developing threats towards their respective territories. When a threat is identified, they go to the threat, instead of waiting for it to come to them[1](Not unlike the CIA irl), in order to ensure that Divinity's Reach and The Black Citadel are put at minimal risk. Because Chimie's Warband regularly works with humans they are not as indoctrinated with Charr beliefs as most Legion Charr are, so as to ensure there is less culture clash. As a result of this Chimie is not as motivated or influenced by Charr propaganda, or prejudice. Phrases like "One Charr" don't spark much patriotism in him.

To explain his opinion on the matter best, I'll write it from his POV:"As far as the Flame Legion goes, historically they have been a significant threat to the Citadel, always being in close range to its gates, and always managing to infiltrate past entire battalions of Allied Charr. With the death of Gaheron Baelfire the remnants of Flame pose significantly less threat than before, but are still a risk that needs to be contained. With the new development of Flame Legion Charr that have vowed to rebel and make peace with the other high legions, this opens up new opportunities for contingency plans and the ability to further weaken the remnants of Flame. With the correct balance of military and political coercion it may be possible to finally pacify those whom choose to maintain Gaheron's regime. Allied Flame could fit in extremely well as Moles and sleeper agents, as they know the Culture far better than any Ash, Iron or Blood Charr could."

So in summary: Chimie has little personal opinion on the Allied Flame Charr, but instead sees them as an asset, and a uniquely valuable opportunity to make Ascalon, and The Black Citadel safer. It is, however important to remember, as with any asset; trust but verify.

![0] Chimie's surname "Pepin" is intentionally misleading. By lacking a proper Warband name, it makes it harder for contacts or enemies whom learn his name to identify his species. Giving him a minor advantage in certain situations, and as a sort of synergy with in-game canon lore, the reason why most people simply call Chimie "Commander" is simple: He doesn't tell most people his name.!! [1] It is because of this that Chimie was assigned to the Vigil, and why he later went on to help form the Pact and Dragon's Watch.

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

I don't have any Charr anymore but the one that I did have fully fleshed out before she met an untimely demise would have been happy to see those old wounds healed since, like Crecia, her parent(s) had ties to the Flame Legion and she, like Crecia, was an Elementalist.

She'd be less thrilled, but not surprised, to know what Bangar is up to though. She had a feeling it wasn't if but when he'd pull the stunt he did.