Mirage questions

[Greyjoy.5167]

Hello,

I am currently acknowledging the Mirage capabilities.I see it deals most of the real dmg via IH Ambush clones in both PvE and PvP.So, what is the purpose of shatters here? I see usage of F3 as CC, F4 as defensive cooldown. But what about F1 and F2? F2 seems to be just weak, even in Condi build. F1 can deal some dmg if geared Power.Still, how do you guys manage this in PvP? F3 and F4 are too situational to use it only if there is no clones to waste, so there will be cases where I have used 3 clones on F4 - what about F1/F2 then?I might be wrong on my F3/F4 usage though.

How do you guys manage clones/shatters in PvP scenarios. Do you always use Offensive shatter on 3 clones? Or maybe it is efficient to use some shatters with 0 clones? Perhaps, you are not shattering at all to keep up the clones for ambush attacks - if so, when would you shatter then?Please help me to understand shattering in variety of circumstances, as I feel lost in that matter.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Greyjoy.5167 said:Hello,

I am currently acknowledging the Mirage capabilities.I see it deals most of the real dmg via IH Ambush clones in both PvE and PvP.So, what is the purpose of shatters here? I see usage of F3 as CC, F4 as defensive cooldown. But what about F1 and F2? F2 seems to be just weak, even in Condi build. F1 can deal some dmg if geared Power.Still, how do you guys manage this in PvP? F3 and F4 are too situational to use it only if there is no clones to waste, so there will be cases where I have used 3 clones on F4 - what about F1/F2 then?I might be wrong on my F3/F4 usage though.

How do you guys manage clones/shatters in PvP scenarios. Do you always use Offensive shatter on 3 clones? Or maybe it is efficient to use some shatters with 0 clones? Perhaps, you are not shattering at all to keep up the clones for ambush attacks - if so, when would you shatter then?Please help me to understand shattering in variety of circumstances, as I feel lost in that matter.

if you play condi, you shatter f1,f2 only if you dont have clones to get boons.if you play power, f1 deals good damage so thats your main damage shatter. thats for PvP

[mortrialus.3062]

@Greyjoy.5167 said:Hello,

I am currently acknowledging the Mirage capabilities.I see it deals most of the real dmg via IH Ambush clones in both PvE and PvP.So, what is the purpose of shatters here? I see usage of F3 as CC, F4 as defensive cooldown. But what about F1 and F2? F2 seems to be just weak, even in Condi build. F1 can deal some dmg if geared Power.Still, how do you guys manage this in PvP? F3 and F4 are too situational to use it only if there is no clones to waste, so there will be cases where I have used 3 clones on F4 - what about F1/F2 then?I might be wrong on my F3/F4 usage though.

How do you guys manage clones/shatters in PvP scenarios. Do you always use Offensive shatter on 3 clones? Or maybe it is efficient to use some shatters with 0 clones? Perhaps, you are not shattering at all to keep up the clones for ambush attacks - if so, when would you shatter then?Please help me to understand shattering in variety of circumstances, as I feel lost in that matter.

In PvE you want to shatter and remake your clones as quickly as possible because Cry of Frustration is still a huge, huge part of your DPS in PvE.

In PvP shatters F1 and F2 aren't that high value. You can still use them, like if you know you're about to get two clones from you Staff Phantasms transforming into clones are they finish their attack, you can get a bit of chip damage by casting F1 or F2 instead of just letting your existing clones get overwritten. But otherwise there isn't that much of a point.

[Jtoon.6907]

I have my character’s damage built around shatter.

[Koen.1327]

f2 right before staff 3 turn into clones or right before blocking with specter 2this will cause 2/3 extra clones in the fight shortly causing visual clutter and confusion as cover condi (multiple times!)same with f1, but it's also useful for removing blind, aegis or tagging someone channeling temple buffs - depending if you have clones or not because shattering is mostly loss of dmg

[starlinvf.1358]

Its worth pointing out that Shatters are at the Core of the majority of Mesmer's traits. Even with much of that being gutted over the years, its overall design makes it an illusion spawning engine, which in turn increases the power of the Shatters. Especially in PvP, where you crap out multiple illusions every few seconds.

Older Mirage builds used to camp clones for the IH, and older Mesmer builds used to camp Phantasms due to a poor design choice. Something I'm glad got changed, but currently acts as a problem due to a lot of other related balance SNAFUs that haven't gotten corrected in its wake. Folks complained about the Phantasm change; but ultimately it opened up a better opportunity to make better use of the Shatters for their trait synergy........ now we just need the Devs to undo all the damage they did to traits over the years, so we can put it all to good use again.

Rant aside, Mirage's dissonance in PvE mostly comes from the fact that Mirage itself is more tuned for PvP; while mesmer itself is a Dueling class at its core. PvP values both damage pressure and "low cap" burst damage, because the HP of opponents are relatively low (rarely higher then 25-27k HP), and puts a huge amount of value on controls and interrupts. PvE is almost the exact opposite, being solely obsessed with sustained damage output, because the Potato-type Mob AI behavior (which offers zero threat in their own right) is offset by making them an Attrition race. IE: HP Oceans, some reaching into the millions if not billions, and hits like a truck with the wind up time of 2 trucks.

When you start getting into raids specifically, the way they are designed gives a leeway in rotations that shorter fights (including fractals) don't allow for. The team comps also provide max boons, which is something rarely sustainable outside of Raids. This is where you start to find the bigger anomalies in DPS benchmarks, and why Raid balance actions frequently disrupts all the other game modes in a big way. Raid fights also tend to be very static or easily controlled, hence why long rotations are even possible. Aggregate damage is the primary goal, and is why the buildcraft goes out of its way to find the mathematically optimal DPS rotation for every build not doing something else; and those other builds exist to mainly to enhance the DPS of the Group.

PvP on the other hand is very opportunistic, and involves a lot of timing and counter play. The enemy has moments of weakness, and a decent amount of damage at the right moment can put them down for good. But unlike PvE, these opponents fight back, recover from damage, and can shut you down in return.

Now consider the difference between Daredevil and Deadeye in a PvE situation. DD is actually made for high sustain damage, where core Thief is made more for occasional bursts, and Deadeye doubles down on that. Thief had always struggled outside of PvP, because its burst damage was routinely lower then mob HP, and openworld always favored the ability to kill mobs in an opening attack. Daredevil did nothing to address that directly, but their sustained damage enables them to follow through with the opening attack and still come out on top. Deadeye (all incarnations) allowed them to increase their burst damage well above the HP of mobs (and now from range), letting them kite a target until they were ready to go in for an explosive damage combo.

When put into Raid, Daredevil's strength comes from having a very high DPS on a very simple rotation. This I can only assume was by design, because it doesn't have the ear marks of a raid build that outsmarted the Devs. Deadeye on the other hand has been both over its life time. Version 1 offered a universally applicable debuff that increased ALL incoming damage to a target..... which was a bad idea in hindsight when you look at the kind of DPS many builds were putting out BEFORE that modifier came into play. Version 2 made it a selfish damage buff, but its time based element made it that much easier to keep it part of a raid rotation, but actively discouraged fighting (and thus being at risk) in all other situations until the debuff was at max power. Version 3 (consume on stealth attack) makes it so much like Core thief, that its hard to tell the difference if not for the fact its spike damage is twice as big. Which is why everyone got rightfully upset when the Devs nerfed CORE THIEF'S sustained damage, to offset the high spike damage of Deadeye... because they thought deadeye DPS metrics were "a little too high in raids".

[Yoci.2481]

I don't understand why PvE has any input on class balance. All balance should be based on PvP/WvW and then PvE encounters need to be designed around that existing balance. NPCs don't complain if you nerf them.