Stealth permanent

[alain.1659]

As a thief player I would love to have something except this second hand stealth mechanic. For instance I would love to get my pistols back in a proper build option. Or maybe use staff except boing boing bunny bound. I hate stealth stacking and nowadays I really hate condi builds for thief. Yet thief has so little options if not for the gimmick or cheesy builds.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@alain.1659 said:As a thief player I would love to have something except this second hand stealth mechanic. For instance I would love to get my pistols back in a proper build option. Or maybe use staff except boing boing bunny bound. I hate stealth stacking and nowadays I really hate condi builds for thief. Yet thief has so little options if not for the gimmick or cheesy builds.

This^ stealth stacking gets annoying fast in this game. I would take buffs in dagger and pistol skills and a nerf in stealth any day.

[Caedmon.6798]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@alain.1659 said:As a thief player I would love to have something except this second hand stealth mechanic. For instance I would love to get my pistols back in a proper build option. Or maybe use staff except boing boing bunny bound. I hate stealth stacking and nowadays I really hate condi builds for thief. Yet thief has so little options if not for the gimmick or cheesy builds.

This^ stealth stacking gets annoying fast in this game. I would take buffs in dagger and pistol skills and a nerf in stealth any day.

I would take nerfs in invulns/reflect/boon spamm/blocks any day !

[Rezzet.3614]

honestly the biggest mistake so far was giving reveal reset to thief, before you could at least negate stealth for 5 secondsit made sense if deadeye thiefs only ran with rifle and deadeye utilities but devs overlooked that thiefs could just use normal builds+ deadeye's reset apparently

[UNOwen.7132]

@Rezzet.3614 said:honestly the biggest mistake so far was giving reveal reset to thief, before you could at least negate stealth for 5 secondsit made sense if deadeye thiefs only ran with rifle and deadeye utilities but devs overlooked that thiefs could just use normal builds+ deadeye's reset apparently

I dont think they overlooked that. I think they saw that and realized that normal builds with deadeye suck. The only builds deadeye has are rifle (which is really bad) and the cheesy permastealth build (which doesnt care about the reveal because they kill you before you are even aware they exist).

And nah, the reveal reset isnt the issue. The problem is that reveal doesnt do anything for the problematic forms of stealth (read: permastealth) while crippling the ones that arent problematic (regular in-combat stealth which at this point is so underpowered you just dont use it. Stealth is now exclusively for running away and for permastealth). The issue is specifically the fact that there is nothing you can do about stealth if you dont know there is a stealthed up guy nearby. The problem that hitting permastealth without hitting regular stealth is pretty difficult, but I do have one idea that I believe is worth investigating. If a thief remains stealthed for longer than, lets say, 5 seconds, they lose access to the stealth attack. Boom. No more Malicious backstab cheese. Still leaves some other issues to be fixed, but hey its a start. Oh and in exchange to make sure that in-combat stealth is marginally less worthless, lets undo the nerf where stealth attacks have a 1 second cooldown. And undo the SA changes.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@alain.1659 said:As a thief player I would love to have something except this second hand stealth mechanic. For instance I would love to get my pistols back in a proper build option. Or maybe use staff except boing boing bunny bound. I hate stealth stacking and nowadays I really hate condi builds for thief. Yet thief has so little options if not for the gimmick or cheesy builds.

This^ stealth stacking gets annoying fast in this game. I would take buffs in dagger and pistol skills and a nerf in stealth any day.

I would take nerfs in invulns/reflect/boon spamm/blocks any day !

Yes this too lol

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:And nah, the reveal reset isnt the issue. The problem is that reveal doesnt do anything for the problematic forms of stealth (read: permastealth) while crippling the ones that arent problematic (regular in-combat stealth which at this point is so underpowered you just dont use it. Stealth is now exclusively for running away and for permastealth). The issue is specifically the fact that there is nothing you can do about stealth if you dont know there is a stealthed up guy nearby. The problem that hitting permastealth without hitting regular stealth is pretty difficult, but I do have one idea that I believe is worth investigating. If a thief remains stealthed for longer than, lets say, 5 seconds, they lose access to the stealth attack. Boom. No more Malicious backstab cheese. Still leaves some other issues to be fixed, but hey its a start. Oh and in exchange to make sure that in-combat stealth is marginally less worthless, lets undo the nerf where stealth attacks have a 1 second cooldown. And undo the SA changes.

I agree with you on the reveal reset, I remember getting shot down on the old forums for suggesting an elite skill that removes reveal as a necessary balance against more prevalent reveal options around the time sneak gyro was introduced. Every strategy needs a counter, including those things that counter stealth.

One small problem with your suggestion is that if you use the stolen item to stealth, or chain cloak and dagger, you never hit that 5s wall as you will be momentarily visible during the animation of the next stealth application. You'd need a condition like "you must be visible for at least 1s to regain access to sneak attacks" to really make it work, I don't know if this wouldn't be unnecessarily complicated tho. I'll let you be the judge of that.

I actually like both the SA changes for the most part and the stealth attack cooldown, they don't encourage permastealthing as much as the previous version of SA and they encourage you to pick your moment better imo. What they need to address is cloaked in shadow, as that trait frankly either needs a severe damage/healing boost or a total rework, if they did that then every trait would have a use in a specialised build, which is a good thing. A grandmaster that knocks you out of stealth for a 100 heal is just objectively awful in a stealth based line haha.

[Straegen.2938]

Warclaw sniff should pop an AoE reveal and be on a 10s cool down.

Holosmith/Scrapper with a ridiculously long stealth? Mesmer with near permanent evasion, invuln, block, stealth uptime and a huge teleport range? Perma-stealth Dead Eyes that crack for thunderous damage and gone an instant later? Soul Beasts that dink and dunk out of stealth at an absurd rate? None of these builds are fun to play against because stealth counter play is virtually no existent.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Straegen.2938 said:Warclaw sniff should pop an AoE reveal and be on a 10s cool down.

Holosmith/Scrapper with a ridiculously long stealth? Mesmer with near permanent evasion, invuln, block, stealth uptime and a huge teleport range? Perma-stealth Dead Eyes that crack for thunderous damage and gone an instant later? Soul Beasts that dink and dunk out of stealth at an absurd rate? None of these builds are fun to play against because stealth counter play is virtually no existent.

I can agree with the sniff pulling reveal, but I disagree with a shorter cooldown.

At least until it gets one less dodge, and 1K or less health.

[Thornwolf.9721]

If they are gonna have stealth, they should lack other tools such as CC or sustain in any form. They should be an all or nothing burst class with stealth as their ONLY means of manuvering in a fight. If this was the case I wouldn't hate them like I do but it isn't and won't be, I've played mine and being a Deadeye is easy as is being a Daredevil its almost hilarious that people say its difficult to play? No its really not, just takes a bit of adjustment.

But with Firebrands, scourges and freaking Holosmiths/Scrappers being as they are I feel like they are the lesser of two evils.. once the rest are dealt with then we can point at the thieves and be like "Now this needs to be fixed." Hell mirages and Boonbeasts are STILL A FREAKING PROBLEM, Boonbeasts have perma everything and even if you peel the boons like a banana, and remove all their toys they still just get it back with a click of a button.

[DemonSeed.3528]

We should just let thieves be the only class to implement any form of stealth.

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Boonbeasts have perma everything and even if you peel the boons like a banana, and remove all their toys they still just get it back with a click of a button.I'd say they are more of an onion than a banana.

Apart from that I do not think warclaw needs a stealth reveal, unless they tack on some extras like pulsing anti boons as well. If we're gonna go down the road of making warclaw even more silly, we might as well do that.

[kash.9213]

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:If they are gonna have stealth, they should lack other tools such as CC or sustain in any form. They should be an all or nothing burst class with stealth as their ONLY means of manuvering in a fight. If this was the case I wouldn't hate them like I do but it isn't and won't be, I've played mine and being a Deadeye is easy as is being a Daredevil its almost hilarious that people say its difficult to play? No its really not, just takes a bit of adjustment.

But with Firebrands, scourges and freaking Holosmiths/Scrappers being as they are I feel like they are the lesser of two evils.. once the rest are dealt with then we can point at the thieves and be like "Now this needs to be fixed." Hell mirages and Boonbeasts are STILL A FREAKING PROBLEM, Boonbeasts have perma everything and even if you peel the boons like a banana, and remove all their toys they still just get it back with a click of a button.

Really, stealth as the only means to maneuver? Thieves basically already are an all or nothing class if they want to get near a one shot, if you get out played by one it doesn't mean you can chalk that up to a one shot then claim you play one and that it's super easy. If it was as easy as you claim, there would be way more and those few who still pop up once in awhile wouldn't be shut down so easily by everyone. If DE was that easy and powerful you'd be playing it instead of crying about it.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@kash.9213 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:If they are gonna have stealth, they should lack other tools such as CC or sustain in any form. They should be an all or nothing burst class with stealth as their ONLY means of manuvering in a fight. If this was the case I wouldn't hate them like I do but it isn't and won't be, I've played mine and being a Deadeye is easy as is being a Daredevil its almost hilarious that people say its difficult to play? No its really not, just takes a bit of adjustment.

But with Firebrands, scourges and freaking Holosmiths/Scrappers being as they are I feel like they are the lesser of two evils.. once the rest are dealt with then we can point at the thieves and be like "Now this needs to be fixed." Hell mirages and Boonbeasts are STILL A FREAKING PROBLEM, Boonbeasts have perma everything and even if you peel the boons like a banana, and remove all their toys they still just get it back with a click of a button.

Really, stealth as the only means to maneuver? Thieves basically already are an all or nothing class if they want to get near a one shot, if you get out played by one it doesn't mean you can chalk that up to a one shot then claim you play one and that it's super easy. If it was as easy as you claim, there would be way more and those few who still pop up once in awhile wouldn't be shut down so easily by everyone. If DE was that easy and powerful you'd be playing it instead of crying about it.

No I wouldn't because its not my prefered playstyle, it is easy and I've had success with it but I don't find thief FUN at all despite how successful I am at it. I don't much care about the drivel you stated here, Because you're dead wrong. MAYBE in Spvp this is the case but in WvW they are everywhere, with perma-stealth and perma-dodge hell perma-cc as well. Fought two today before Reset who legitamentally couldn't be caught or killed and were just stealthed the whole time with no one having any clue, or indication of when it was right to attack.

So yes if you have stealth you can have a few cc's to be used when you come out of it, but once you engage you're in and thats it. This pulling out and resetting the fight is bullshit and this perma-stealth shit is terrible. If you want more than that then Give up stealth and I'd be all for giving you all the other tools all of the other classes have to compensate, Id at least like to see you and not have you teleporting and hiding the whole time widdling me down while I can't get you. As for reveal it still works like shit; Because even then they just blitz away and then re-stealth. Its a band-aid fix.