Firebrand nerfed, what now?.

[Potato PC William.2583]

What are your thoughts after the nerfs?. What other possible good options in wvw? I want to know if there are any good updated builds or the same still?.Hollowed Ground? Bow of Truth ? or Stand Your Ground is still a must?.

[Blocki.4931]

It will be nerfed, but it will still be extremely good..

[Sovereign.1093]

@Potato PC William.2583 said:What are your thoughts after the nerfs?. What other possible good options in wvw? I want to know if there are any good updated builds or the same still?.Hollowed Ground? Bow of Truth ? or Stand Your Ground is still a must?.

we'll see first upon testing =)

its like they returned it to the first time firebrand released.

[Infusion.7149]

I hope you're joking. Stand Your Ground is still 10 targets and 0 cast time with 600 radius ; if you trait Virtues' Indomitable Courage your virtue of courage is a stunbreak as well as stability. Until there's a better option, Guardians will remain a staple in WvW.

If anything I'm waiting for them to reduce the number of pages in tomes back to 5 with a cooldown reduction on the virtues instead of 8 pages. Firebrand power level has a large difference to its core AH guardian and DH counterparts.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

If anything from a WvW perspective, it will be 2 firebrands per sub group rather than just 1 but it probably wont be 2 anyway

Firebrand still meta as no other class can dish out so much stability

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@Infusion.7149 said:I hope you're joking. Stand Your Ground is still 10 targets and 0 cast time with 600 radius ; if you trait Virtues' Indomitable Courage your virtue of courage is a stunbreak as well as stability. Until there's a better option, Guardians will remain a staple in WvW.

If anything I'm waiting for them to reduce the number of pages in tomes back to 5 with a cooldown reduction on the virtues instead of 8 pages. Firebrand power level has a large difference to its core AH guardian and DH counterparts.

Ugh, that’s a terrible idea and wouldn’t solve anything. What needs to be changed is the healing power coefficient on guardian heals. Also, I think they should remove stab from courage 1 and replace it with something else, like maybe a power damage component.

[RUNICBLACK.7630]

@"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:Ugh, that’s a terrible idea and wouldn’t solve anything. What needs to be changed is the healing power coefficient on guardian heals. Also, I think they should remove stab from courage 1 and replace it with something else, like maybe a power damage component.

Just curious on your idea of a "power damage component" what exactly are thinking of here? Because if your looking at something that improves your direct damage like some of the traits (examples Unscathed Contender or Symbolic Avenger where you gain a % bonus to your damage under certain restrictions) unless that is giving the bonus also to your allies it's usefulness will be kind limited being as outside of your utility skills when you have Courage up the only damaging attack you have is chapter 2. Just asking what your thoughts are with this idea and if you could expand on it some what.

[Yannir.4132]

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:Ugh, that’s a terrible idea and wouldn’t solve anything. What needs to be changed is the healing power coefficient on guardian heals. Also, I think they should remove stab from courage 1 and replace it with something else, like maybe a power damage component.

Removing the F3 Stability would hurt other Guardian builds more than Firebrand. Terrible idea. DH and Core Guardian are nerfed enough.

Personally I think they should change Archivist of Whispers and nerf Force of Will.Make AoW a tome cooldown reduction trait instead of more pages, or make the extra pages somehow conditional. Make FoWs outgoing healing a flat +10% increase instead of scaling based on Vit.

[Riba.3271]

@Yannir.4132 said:

@"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:Ugh, that’s a terrible idea and wouldn’t solve anything. What needs to be changed is the healing power coefficient on guardian heals. Also, I think they should remove stab from courage 1 and replace it with something else, like maybe a power damage component.

Removing the F3 Stability would hurt other Guardian builds more than Firebrand. Terrible idea. DH and Core Guardian are nerfed enough.

Personally I think they should change Archivist of Whispers and nerf Force of Will.Make AoW a tome cooldown reduction trait instead of more pages, or make the extra pages somehow conditional. Make FoWs outgoing healing a flat +10% increase instead of scaling based on Vit.

He ment the Courage tome "autoattack" skill, not the trait that makes f3 tome give stab.

[Yannir.4132]

@Threather.9354 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:Ugh, that’s a terrible idea and wouldn’t solve anything. What needs to be changed is the healing power coefficient on guardian heals. Also, I think they should remove stab from courage 1 and replace it with something else, like maybe a power damage component.

Removing the F3 Stability would hurt other Guardian builds more than Firebrand. Terrible idea. DH and Core Guardian are nerfed enough.

Personally I think they should change Archivist of Whispers and nerf Force of Will.Make AoW a tome cooldown reduction trait instead of more pages, or make the extra pages somehow conditional. Make FoWs outgoing healing a flat +10% increase instead of scaling based on Vit.

He ment the Courage tome "autoattack" skill, not the trait that makes f3 tome give stab.

Ah. Well, that makes a whole lot more sense. My bad.I suppose it could be just a Swiftness spammer. I never really understood why Tomes need an "autoattack" anyway.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:

@"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:Ugh, that’s a terrible idea and wouldn’t solve anything. What needs to be changed is the healing power coefficient on guardian heals. Also, I think they should remove stab from courage 1 and replace it with something else, like maybe a power damage component.

Just curious on your idea of a "power damage component" what exactly are thinking of here? Because if your looking at something that improves your direct damage like some of the traits (examples Unscathed Contender or Symbolic Avenger where you gain a % bonus to your damage under certain restrictions) unless that is giving the bonus also to your allies it's usefulness will be kind limited being as outside of your utility skills when you have Courage up the only damaging attack you have is chapter 2. Just asking what your thoughts are with this idea and if you could expand on it some what.I don’t mean as a buff per say, but as an actual attack. Sorry for the confusion.

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:Ugh, that’s a terrible idea and wouldn’t solve anything. What needs to be changed is the healing power coefficient on guardian heals. Also, I think they should remove stab from courage 1 and replace it with something else, like maybe a power damage component.

Removing the F3 Stability would hurt other Guardian builds more than Firebrand. Terrible idea. DH and Core Guardian are nerfed enough.

Personally I think they should change Archivist of Whispers and nerf Force of Will.Make AoW a tome cooldown reduction trait instead of more pages, or make the extra pages somehow conditional. Make FoWs outgoing healing a flat +10% increase instead of scaling based on Vit.

He ment the Courage tome "autoattack" skill, not the trait that makes f3 tome give stab.

Ah. Well, that makes a whole lot more sense. My bad.I suppose it could be just a Swiftness spammer. I never really understood why Tomes need an "autoattack" anyway.

Mostly as a means to do a little bit of damage between support skill CDs on the other Tome skills. Also, I’d rather they not reduce the amount of pages given by AoW. I don’t understand why people want that changed for another crappy CD trait. Besides that, the trait would be redundant considering there are already a couple other traits that reduce tome CDs.

[Yannir.4132]

@"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:Mostly as a means to do a little bit of damage between support skill CDs on the other Tome skills. Also, I’d rather they not reduce the amount of pages given by AoW. I don’t understand why people want that changed for another crappy CD trait. Besides that, the trait would be redundant considering there are already a couple other traits that reduce tome CDs.

But they don't do damage.. F2 and F3 tomes don't have damage on their 1st page.It does make sense for the F1 tome but the other 2, not so much.I'd rather take a more potent skill that has a cooldown to it. This is the change I'm advocating coupled to the trait change. If the skills are more potent and there's no "autoattack", there is also no reason to have 8 pages. I don't want 1 change without the other however. I've said this elsewhere before which I is why left it unmentioned in this thread earlier.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@Yannir.4132 said:

@"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:Mostly as a means to do a little bit of damage between support skill CDs on the other Tome skills. Also, I’d rather they not reduce the amount of pages given by AoW. I don’t understand why people want that changed for another crappy CD trait. Besides that, the trait would be redundant considering there are already a couple other traits that reduce tome CDs.

But they don't do damage.. F2 and F3 tomes don't have damage on their 1st page.It does make sense for the F1 tome but the other 2, not so much.I'd rather take a more potent skill that has a cooldown to it. This is the change I'm advocating coupled to the trait change. If the skills are more potent and there's no "autoattack", there is also no reason to have 8 pages. I don't want 1 change without the other however. I've said this elsewhere before which I is why left it unmentioned in this thread earlier.

But what your proposing doesn’t make sense at all either, considering we already have several traits that reduce virtues/tomes cooldown. By your own words, F1 is the attack tome and removing the 8 pages trait would hurt builds that use this.

People are complaining about boon spam, with some pointing the finger at stability. Book2’s skill 1 is a spam skill that stacks stability. Removing said boon from this skill and adding a different condi attack type than Book1’s skill 1 would be a way to nerf it without making it completely useless. Personally, I’d like to see bleeding or maybe cripple on Book3’s skill 1 and also giving Book2’s skill 1 poison. This places emphasis on Books’ skills 2-5, while letting you do something meaningful while waiting for the skill CDs. This also nerfs Book2’s healing, yet also makes it useful still.

Minstrel equipped, support only Firebrands are what the problem is, not Firebrand itself. The changes I’d like to see above, coupled with a major healing power coefficient nerf/reduction on both skills and traits is needed for balancing, and would make the biggest impact on changing the WvW landscape.

[otto.5684]

@Potato PC William.2583 said:What are your thoughts after the nerfs?. What other possible good options in wvw? I want to know if there are any good updated builds or the same still?.Hollowed Ground? Bow of Truth ? or Stand Your Ground is still a must?.

The real question is what will change? And the answer is.. nothing. Honestly, Anet ignored majority of the feedback, that why they are doing silly changes that will not achieve shit.

The aegis removal from ToC 2 has no impact on FB support capacity and minuscule impact on FB support sustain. It primarily hits Sage FB sustain in sPvP.The change to Stand Your Ground follows the same pattern. The biggest concern for stability is boon corruption, not getting CCed more than 3 times in 5 secs. This change is obsolete.Hallowed Ground with 0.75 cast time will never ever be used.Sanctuary, cast time + huge CD makes it useless. I do not care if it blocks 10 hits or million hits, no one will use it.The only change that has actual impact is ToR 2 change. We had this in sPvP since ever. It will surely be impactful in WvW as well.

Overall, the change to FB support could be viewed as slight nerf in WvW, 0.0000001% nerf in sPvP. Noticeable nerf to any sPvP dps build, which I am certain not the intended target. FB support in PvP is and will remain the only game in town, for any class. This is what happens when you makes changes without understanding what the fuck the issues are.

Unrelated to this thread specifically, whoever is responsible for making guardian changes for like a year now, has no fucking clue how the class operates or what are the functional builds. Evidence:

Anet still cannot figure out why FB support is over performing in PvP or how to fix it.Shatter aegis, no longer critics, which makes it useless. But wait! Damage split between PvP and PvE?!!! Who would ever use or even used this skill in PvE?Alt+ctrl+delete to hammer.Same to core guardian. I hope at least for Anet competence sake that this is intended, cuz if it is not...Removal of all sustain from zeal, rendering the line impossible to use in PvP (it was always questionable anyway)Last patch re-arrangement killed virtues in almost all dps builds in all game modes. Diversity?!Changes like making sanctuary block more attacks or hallowed ground having larger area of effect. Mostly stuff pulled randomly out of a hat.

I cannot logically fathom how anyone plays or designs this class, could not figure this shit out.

[ArchonWing.9480]

The changes are inconsequetial in wvw though there will need to be more focus on condi clear.

[Adamsdjr.1350]

Still meta just slightly less oppressive.

[Yannir.4132]

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:But what your proposing doesn’t make sense at all either, considering we already have several traits that reduce virtues/tomes cooldown. By your own words, F1 is the attack tome and removing the 8 pages trait would hurt builds that use this.

People are complaining about boon spam, with some pointing the finger at stability. Book2’s skill 1 is a spam skill that stacks stability. Removing said boon from this skill and adding a different condi attack type than Book1’s skill 1 would be a way to nerf it without making it completely useless. Personally, I’d like to see bleeding or maybe cripple on Book3’s skill 1 and also giving Book2’s skill 1 poison. This places emphasis on Books’ skills 2-5, while letting you do something meaningful while waiting for the skill CDs. This also nerfs Book2’s healing, yet also makes it useful still.

Minstrel equipped, support only Firebrands are what the problem is, not Firebrand itself. The changes I’d like to see above, coupled with a major healing power coefficient nerf/reduction on both skills and traits is needed for balancing, and would make the biggest impact on changing the WvW landscape.

Poison will never make sense on Guardian. No matter what else we see from Guardian in the future, Poison will never be added to the class. Poison = dishonorable, which goes against the core ideas and virtues of Guardian. ANet is big on lore and flavor reasons. Even Torment or Confusion are more likely. Cripple on F3 chap 1 would be nice though, would add a different kind of defense into the tome.

Look, I don't want to go into a massively detailed discussion about this but the things you mention there are just numbers issues which are easily fixed. F1 doesn't do enough damage with 5 pages? Add a 6th pulse to chap 4, reduce casting time, weakness uptime and cooldown time on chap 2, make chap 1 pulse twice before going on a short cooldown. It's not like you can't drop the tome any you time you want either. This way ANet doesn't have to balance the tomes around 5 and 8 pages, just 5.Archivist of Whispers could also be a trait that reduced tome cooldowns based on your remaining pages. Let's say you would get a 10% cooldown refund for each unused page.

One major issue is that you really can't nerf the healing coefficients much on Firebrand skills anymore without making it borderline useless. Either you go after core guardian healing or reduce the number of individual skills available. Maybe even go after a few traits, like Writ of Persistence or Pure of Heart. I'm not exactly sure which runes Firebrands use in WvW but going after Monk runes is another option atleast for PvP. They've been way too dominant anyway since the rune overhaul.

I tried to tackle multiple angles here, let me know if I'm being incoherent.

[Exile.8160]

@otto.5684 said:

@Potato PC William.2583 said:What are your thoughts after the nerfs?. What other possible good options in wvw? I want to know if there are any good updated builds or the same still?.Hollowed Ground? Bow of Truth ? or Stand Your Ground is still a must?.

The real question is what will change? And the answer is.. nothing. Honestly, Anet ignored majority of the feedback, that why they are doing silly changes that will not achieve kitten.

The aegis removal from ToC 2 has no impact on FB support capacity and minuscule impact on FB support sustain. It primarily hits Sage FB sustain in sPvP.The change to Stand Your Ground follows the same pattern. The biggest concern for stability is boon corruption, not getting CCed more than 3 times in 5 secs. This change is obsolete.Hallowed Ground with 0.75 cast time will never ever be used.Sanctuary, cast time + huge CD makes it useless. I do not care if it blocks 10 hits or million hits, no one will use it.The only change that has actual impact is ToR 2 change. We had this in sPvP since ever. It will surely be impactful in WvW as well.

Overall, the change to FB support could be viewed as slight nerf in WvW, 0.0000001% nerf in sPvP. Noticeable nerf to any sPvP dps build, which I am certain not the intended target. FB support in PvP is and will remain the only game in town, for any class. This is what happens when you makes changes without understanding what the kitten the issues are.

Unrelated to this thread specifically, whoever is responsible for making guardian changes for like a year now, has no kitten clue how the class operates or what are the functional builds. Evidence:

Anet still cannot figure out why FB support is over performing in PvP or how to fix it.Shatter aegis, no longer critics, which makes it useless. But wait! Damage split between PvP and PvE?!!! Who would ever use or even used this skill in PvE?Alt+ctrl+delete to hammer.Same to core guardian. I hope at least for Anet competence sake that this is intended, cuz if it is not...Removal of all sustain from zeal, rendering the line impossible to use in PvP (it was always questionable anyway)Last patch re-arrangement killed virtues in almost all dps builds in all game modes. Diversity?!Changes like making sanctuary block more attacks or hallowed ground having larger area of effect. Mostly stuff pulled randomly out of a hat.

I cannot logically fathom how anyone plays or designs this class, could not figure this kitten out.

Amen brother, I could not have said it better my self. They dont know what they are doing period!

[LetoII.3782]

Really is the Crux of the issue for Anet balance... Again and again they hack away at the trunk of the tree rather than the offending branch.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:But what your proposing doesn’t make sense at all either, considering we already have several traits that reduce virtues/tomes cooldown. By your own words, F1 is the attack tome and removing the 8 pages trait would hurt builds that use this.

People are complaining about boon spam, with some pointing the finger at stability. Book2’s skill 1 is a spam skill that stacks stability. Removing said boon from this skill and adding a different condi attack type than Book1’s skill 1 would be a way to nerf it without making it completely useless. Personally, I’d like to see bleeding or maybe cripple on Book3’s skill 1 and also giving Book2’s skill 1 poison. This places emphasis on Books’ skills 2-5, while letting you do something meaningful while waiting for the skill CDs. This also nerfs Book2’s healing, yet also makes it useful still.

Minstrel equipped, support only Firebrands are what the problem is, not Firebrand itself. The changes I’d like to see above, coupled with a major healing power coefficient nerf/reduction on both skills and traits is needed for balancing, and would make the biggest impact on changing the WvW landscape.

Poison will never make sense on Guardian. No matter what else we see from Guardian in the future, Poison will never be added to the class. Poison = dishonorable, which goes against the core ideas and virtues of Guardian. ANet is big on lore and flavor reasons. Even Torment or Confusion are more likely. Cripple on F3 chap 1 would be nice though, would add a different kind of defense into the tome.

Look, I don't want to go into a massively detailed discussion about this but the things you mention there are just numbers issues which are easily fixed. F1 doesn't do enough damage with 5 pages? Add a 6th pulse to chap 4, reduce casting time, weakness uptime and cooldown time on chap 2, make chap 1 pulse twice before going on a short cooldown. It's not like you can't drop the tome any you time you want either. This way ANet doesn't have to balance the tomes around 5 and 8 pages, just 5.Archivist of Whispers could also be a trait that reduced tome cooldowns based on your remaining pages. Let's say you would get a 10% cooldown refund for each unused page.

One major issue is that you really can't nerf the healing coefficients much on Firebrand skills anymore without making it borderline useless. Either you go after core guardian healing or reduce the number of individual skills available. Maybe even go after a few traits, like Writ of Persistence or Pure of Heart. I'm not exactly sure which runes Firebrands use in WvW but going after Monk runes is another option atleast for PvP. They've been way too dominant anyway since the rune overhaul.

I tried to tackle multiple angles here, let me know if I'm being incoherent.

No, you make sense. No incoherence. I also understand how Anet trend to stick heavily to lore considering I’ve played their games since gw1’s release. But the funny thing with lore is that you can spin it in any direction you want and still make it work, and Anet has done it before. Regardless, that’s a whole different discussion and is far from the point of my post. The poison condi was just off the top of my head so dont take it as the absolute only condi needed. I do think it should be a damage condition however, whether it be bleeding, confusion, etc. People are calling for a nerf to FBs support and I think this is a perfect opportunity to do so, yet strengthen its condi game by changing tome 2’s skill 1. Right now, we only have the burning condi, and it needs more to make it a better viable condi build.

For F1’s damage, I never said it doesn’t do enough damage with just 5 pages, so I’m not sure where you’re getting that from. It doesn’t need a damage buff. Using FB as a condi build, you want to stay in tome1 for as long and as much as possible. That’s where your main damage comes from. You can take a look in meta battle and see that also. Having 8 pages helps this tremendously. Also, it gives you a lot of flexibility with the skill choice order, without the fear of not having enough pages for your other skills. Replacing this trait with yet another virtue/tomes cd trait isn’t needed. Like I stated before, we already have multiple traits that do this. Also, the other adept traits are quite competitive as a choice if you don’t need 8 pages for tomes, so it’s not like AoW is the only viable choice.

And HP coefficients make perfect sense for nerfing. The healing an HP heavy FB can produce is quite powerful. I’m not taking base heal, just the healing power. I’m also not referring to core traits or abilities.

[RUNICBLACK.7630]

@"Yannir.4132" said:Poison will never make sense on Guardian. No matter what else we see from Guardian in the future, Poison will never be added to the class. Poison = dishonorable, which goes against the core ideas and virtues of Guardian. ANet is big on lore and flavor reasons. Even Torment or Confusion are more likely. Cripple on F3 chap 1 would be nice though, would add a different kind of defense into the tome.

Torment would fit in very well with regard to the Guardian various attacks that have a "Chain " visual effects such as Binding Blade, Zealot's Embrace, and Chains of Light (possibly Hunter's Ward/Hunter's Mark) added to the fact that we can have issues with chasing an opponent along with the advantage of making those immobilizing attacks more useful when coupled with Torment ...Pity they probably will never even consider the possibility.

To borrow the joke "Don't Run ! You just Die Tired!"