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About the Charr victim complex, and Anet's hatred for Ascalon


witcher.3197

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@Loesh.4697 said:Joking aside, to add a bit more meat to this conversation, there is a running theme under this episode that i'd actually love to hear the developers thoughts on, because I feel like it's going to color the rest of the Icebrood Saga. In terms of Rytlock, of Crecia, and now we know even Bangar.

Historical wrongs or rights aside, you can tell a lot about the health of a society based on the children that are present within it. One of the most striking things to me about humans and Charr even back as far as the core game were the differences that their parenting techniques created in the children under their care. One of the reasons why I am on the humans side in a lot of it is is because of how they treat their children and the sort of people that it tends to produce. Humans clearly have a much different perception of race relations even on at an early age, the kids in Divinity's Reach roleplay as old Ascalonian heroes but when you talk to them they are readily accepting of the fact there is a difference between the 'Bad Charr' of ages past and the good Charr now, that the worlds changed a lot and that the Charr were not a monolithically evil people In the Fields of Ruin this is different of course, a lot of people there had been fighting with Charr who had tried to kill them since early childhood, but even then there are kids like Olia in Forlorn Hope who wonder why they must fight with the Ogres. To them they see this fighting and don't always just default to killing their enemies, but try to understand the circumstances that make sharing the land impossible.

Say what you will about human spirituality, but it's considerably different from the typical comparison people seem to make between Christianity and it. There is, after all, a world of difference between a Cross and an Ankh. Part of the reason I really like playing my human Guardian is it's like playing a Paladin that was into Greek Stoicism and Wicca. They are more like primordial elements of the universe that, while capable of immense cruelty as per the parables, are also capable of extreme kindness in their scriptures. Indeed the primary values of human faith are compassion, empathy, and protection. Even Balthazar, the most ruthless of the gods, had a philosophy that revolved around fighting to protect another rather then fighting for the sake of fighting.

I'm not saying that religion produces objectively better children, after all one of the mist striking things you can find in Divinity's Reach is a human child who is being pressured into liking Grenth and learning about necromancy with his father dismissing it as just a phase. However what I AM saying is that spirituality can have a strong influence on what values a culture holds close to it's heart. Humans are in Guild Wars, a defensive people, and when I think of the kind of values their best teach I think of Gandalf speaking to Frodo in Moria. 'Many that live deserve death, and some that die can deserve life. Can you give it to them Frodo? do not be so eager to deal out death and judgement.' The gods themselves may fluctuate between good, evil, and somewhere inbetween, but the actual values they taught their people were good.

However the children of the Charr are much the opposite.

Cubs in the Black Citadel would scoff at that kind of commentary, for violence and destruction are not only taught to be good things, but their wish fulfillment fantasies of enacting violence on their enemies are taught as a good thing. Exceptions may exist but by and large their children are fed on a steady diet of altered sanctioned history and a belief that only through violence can they gain respect from the people around them. In truth all it creates is fear, the same fear that Bangar Ruinbringer feels keeps them safe, fear that Shaman Ninukab points out has turned their homeland into a hellscape, fear that a cub expresses towards a Vigil soldier trying to calm them about Aurene, it's a fear of the other and it's encouraged. Children go out to the Stormcaller monument fed on such stories and wonder to their Primus why they don't kill all the humans already. Such fear is indeed, likely what drove Ajax Anvilburn to madness, he was as one of the Iron Legion soldiers say, a coward.

That's a very specific word to use to describe someone, and when I saw it I thought of all the times fear had come up in the last episode, and also how Jormag offers Bangar a way to escape his fear.

That is the trap of Charr society. Humans have built a culture of vulnerability where people are encouraged to be compassionate to one another, even beyond the boundaries of race. It is why when the Skritt came to the surface of Tyria the Sylvari and humans were open to negotiating with them, where the Charr were all too happy to aid in the Asura's extermination campaign. The Charr by contrast built a society of strength, a Darwinian nightmare where only the 'strongest' live and the weak are discarded like refuse. The weak, the infirm, and elderly are consigned to huddling in farmsteads with their cattle while the youth taunt them about how they were basically sent out there to die.

Real Charr are badasses, real Charr are defined by their ability to fight and kill with a completely blank emotionless expression, real Charr are also apparently defined by their deep seated insecurities of both themselves and the others around them.

That I think is why I rush to humanity's defense, and why it's hard for me to believe, even in the early start of the war, that humanity was entirely at fault for what happened in Ascalon. Cultures of 'Strength' are about anything but, they are not about being strong, they are about a fear of other people, of change, of anyone controlling your destiny but you that isn't a healthy way to live. To gorge oneself of meaningless violence past the point of whats sane for no other reason then to prove your dominance and communicate it to others. Meanwhile a culture of the 'vulnerable' truly knows what it is to be strong, to confront their fears and tell others about them, to find strength in each other and hope for a better tomorrow even when the world seems nihilistic and cruel. Allowing yourself to be vulnerable is a key part to adulthood, if you never progress past that point you'll never grow up even fifty years later, you'll still be the same child terrified of the dark.

Say what you will about human religion, say what you will about religion in general, but the spirituality and compassion taught there certainly allowed humans to raise better kids in my eyes. That was my take away from Bound by Blood.

Reading this, it makes it seem like Charr society is a jab at toxic masculinity and the older American mindsets. You aren't allowed to show emotion, you aren't allowed to cry, real men don't cry. Empathy and kindness are for weaklings. Born weak, are constantly sick, or old? Too bad, if you can't take care of yourself you're better off dead. We're better than you because of how we look. Etc etc. Basically outdated notions that cause harm in the long run.

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I do feel the need to note however that I do actually like the charr as a race, I simply object to people ascribing traits to them that simply do not (currently, at least) apply to them beyond a few individuals. (And the Olmakhan as strange as their introduction was)

It should be telling though that the ones who those traits do apply to are all charr who have spent a lot of time amongst other races and outside the bounds of the Legions.

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@RyuDragnier.9476 said:Reading this, it makes it seem like Charr society is a jab at toxic masculinity and the older American mindsets. You aren't allowed to show emotion, you aren't allowed to cry, real men don't cry. Empathy and kindness are for weaklings. Born weak, are constantly sick, or old? Too bad, if you can't take care of yourself you're better off dead. We're better than you because of how we look. Etc etc. Basically outdated notions that cause harm in the long run.

I kid you not, during one of Wooden Potatos episodes he said that Charr don't cry, and if they do it was a story he wasn't interested in hearing.

I can't claim to know what the best direction for the Charr is, i'm not an unbiased party. As pretty much all my previous posts indicate I generally find much of their society distasteful. What a fan of the Charr would want is likely very different from what I want.

However, I do know that the direction cannot just be 'return to being bloodthirsty monsters'.

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I think that the more charr interact with other races, the "better" they get. The problem is the other races have never really gone into modern Ascalon, and most legion charr stay put. With Smodur pushing for peace, and likely increased trade things may improve drastically.

Though, despite there being so much I wanna reply to, it'd be a novel at this point. One thing I did want to point out is somebody mentioned humanity co-existed with dwarves just fine, and that was an example of them being able to inhabit the land with locals without conflict.

This made me think about it, and come up with a rather... dark reasoning for it. The reason I can see the humans getting along with the dwarves (and Naga, the other race stated to generally be friendly with humans before the jade wind) are they are in areas humanity simply didn't want. Underwater (naga), and shiverpeaks (dwarves). Meanwhile we can see that humans kicked everybody else out of the prime real estate. Kryta (Centaurs and Tengu), Ascalon (Charr), Cantha (Tengu), lands around Elon river (Harpies, Heket, Centaurs).

Fortunately, humanity got better. And the Charr show clear signs that they can do so as well. Bangar had to hold a secret meeting of the charr who supported getting the dragon and having the upper hand over the other races, after all. (Though he technically hasn't broken the treaty, making it so we can't exactly attack him without breaking it ourselves).

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Or maybe the humans just were diplomatic?

I mean hell with the Tengu active steps were made to try and stop fighting. The Tengu attacked the humans first. Killing an entire village and possibly eating their corpses during the Jade Wind migration, and again assaulting humans again after the Angchu tribes young were exposed to foreign diseases.

Humans just, like, seem more open to talking to people in general.

Also for Bangar: The mans leading a pack of Renegades, depending on how you do Deeper and Deeper you outright kill his men. I think we've escalated beyond just words at this point.

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@"Loesh.4697" said:I kid you not, during one of Wooden Potatos episodes he said that Charr don't cry, and if they do it was a story he wasn't interested in hearing.I agree with WP. Always keep in mind that Charr are not Humans and this is what flavors a fantasy story, otherwise we could be playing something like Second Life, and doing things our modern human society expects us to do and react. As a feline race I expect them process emotions in a different way.

What a fan of the Charr would want is likely very different from what I want.Yes, yes it is.

However, I do know that the direction cannot just be 'return to being bloodthirsty monsters'.No, Charr are evolving fast, and for the sake of Charr DNA they should remain aggressive (wild cards) it just adds to it's flavor. But now they are the "bloodthirsty monters" of the united races of tyria... our monsters. The fact that modern Charr are much in contact with the rest of the world changed them, they found new ways of doing things, they finally got to know other cultures.

This is a fantasy story, and should not mirror human society IRL. Anet achieved something really beautiful here, a different race in so many aspects. And this discussion here just proves it.

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Well, prepare to be disappointed I guess? Cause it seems pretty plain to me that the Charr are like this for sociological, not biological reasons. Which is frankly for the best, if the Charr were biologically locked into being a Kratocracy masquerading as a Meritocracy forever then working with them in any capacity wouldn't be good for your or Tyria's health.

Plus, i'm fairly certain that 'The Racists are totally right you guys' probably isn't going to be the take away of Bound by Blood, just a hunch. Especially since for the most part Guild Wars has done an admirable job of subverting the fantasy races trope.

Which is also, very much for the best. I know I quoted Gandfalf up there, believe me I love Tolken. But have you read the rationale for designing the Orcs the way they are? Tis a massive Yikes, my dude.

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@Loesh.4697 said:Or maybe the humans just were diplomatic?

I mean hell with the Tengu active steps were made to try and stop fighting. The Tengu attacked the humans first. Killing an entire village and possibly eating their corpses during the Jade Wind migration, and again assaulting humans again after the Angchu tribes young were exposed to foreign diseases.

Humans just, like, seem more open to talking to people in general.

Also for Bangar: The mans leading a pack of Renegades, depending on how you do Deeper and Deeper you outright kill his men. I think we've escalated beyond just words at this point.

That's quite possible, but let's not discount another fact : we don't know how early humans behaved.

The reports and stories about their arrival on the world of Tyria and their spread from Orr to Cantha (or was it the reverse?), Elona and finally Tyria (the continent) are patchy, at best. We don't know what they did, how they behaved beyond the broadest of sketeches. It's not too far-fetched, considering what humans are IRL and how close to it GW2 humans are, that not all those migrations started peacefully. After all, the Guild Wars happened, even discounting other wars between the kindgoms.

Certainly, the Forgotten were never met with nothing but hostility from Mankind, as far as I can tell, the Centaurs obviously weren't met with offers to share the lands in an amiable way, which seems to give credence to kalavier's theroy that only the inhabitants of inhospitable places were met with diplomacy (and even then, the hatred from the Stone Summits had to come from somewhere. I think it was the Guild Wars, but I may be wrong here); or places which held no significance to the humans, while evn the Desert Crystal was sought after because of the Rites of Ascenscion.

Overall, while far better than the Charrs', humanity track records when it comes to other races is far from stellar, from the few sources of lore we have.

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@Valmir.4590 said:

@"Loesh.4697" said:Or maybe the humans just were diplomatic?

I mean hell with the Tengu active steps were made to try and stop fighting. The Tengu attacked the humans first. Killing an entire village and possibly eating their corpses during the Jade Wind migration, and again assaulting humans again after the Angchu tribes young were exposed to foreign diseases.

Humans just, like, seem more open to
talking to people
in general.

Also for Bangar: The mans leading a pack of Renegades, depending on how you do Deeper and Deeper you outright kill his men. I think we've escalated beyond just words at this point.

That's quite possible, but let's not discount another fact : we don't know how early humans behaved.

The reports and stories about their arrival on the world of Tyria and their spread from Orr to Cantha (or was it the reverse?), Elona and finally Tyria (the continent) are patchy, at best. We don't know what they did, how they behaved beyond the broadest of sketeches. It's not too far-fetched, considering what humans are IRL and how close to it GW2 humans are, that not all those migrations started peacefully. After all, the Guild Wars happened, even discounting other wars between the kindgoms.

Certainly, the Forgotten were never met with nothing but hostility from Mankind, as far as I can tell, the Centaurs obviously weren't met with offers to share the lands in an amiable way, which seems to give credence to kalavier's theroy that only the inhabitants of inhospitable places were met with diplomacy (and even then, the hatred from the Stone Summits had to come from somewhere. I think it was the Guild Wars, but I may be wrong here); or places which held no significance to the humans, while evn the Desert Crystal was sought after because of the Rites of Ascenscion.

Overall, while far better than the Charrs', humanity track records when it comes to other races is far from stellar, from the few sources of lore we have.

Another factor would be the Dwarves already had an established civilization. Centaurs and Charr weren't as developed. We know the Charr considered Ascalon to be a hunting ground, and even today Centaur villages are pretty simple functional, but simple.

Could've been they saw Dwarves and went "Ah, civilized people!" and got friendly (seeing as Dwarves had cities and forts throughout the shiverpeaks), while the more "primitive" groups were pushed aside.

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@RyuDragnier.9476 said:Reading this, it makes it seem like Charr society is a jab at toxic masculinity and the older American mindsets. You aren't allowed to show emotion, you aren't allowed to cry, real men don't cry. Empathy and kindness are for weaklings. Born weak, are constantly sick, or old? Too bad, if you can't take care of yourself you're better off dead. We're better than you because of how we look. Etc etc. Basically outdated notions that cause harm in the long run.

It seems a little... not narcissistic, but something similar... to assume that any and all social commentary must be regarding a particular modern society. If the names and terms they use weren't enough of a clue, they borrow a lot from the Romans and Spartans in many respects, including their ethos.

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@perilisk.1874 said:

@RyuDragnier.9476 said:Reading this, it makes it seem like Charr society is a jab at toxic masculinity and the older American mindsets. You aren't allowed to show emotion, you aren't allowed to cry, real men don't cry. Empathy and kindness are for weaklings. Born weak, are constantly sick, or old? Too bad, if you can't take care of yourself you're better off dead. We're better than you because of how we look. Etc etc. Basically outdated notions that cause harm in the long run.

It seems a little... not narcissistic, but something similar... to assume that any and all social commentary must be regarding a particular modern society. If the names and terms they use weren't enough of a clue, they borrow a lot from the Romans and Spartans in many respects, including their ethos.

All interpretation of history is in some way colored by modern beliefs, no matter how accurate you try to make it. At the same time there doesn't have to be one set way to interpret a work, it's a very reductive way to look at art.

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I'm actually unsure that the Forgotten even had anything remotely close to a hostile relationship with humans. None of their early records indicate anything of the sort, with scripture describing the Forgotten as guides, and the Forgotten largely withdrawing not due to war with mankind but due to a recall from Glint to the Crystal Desert. When the Forgotten and men do fight it's as a test from the gods and they both maintain a healthy relationship when fighting Abaddon in the Realm of Torment and when the Forgotten inevitably choose humans to be their and the Brotherhood of the Dragons successors. Makes sense, considering they both worshiped the same deity.

For the same reasons I mentioned above I find it unlikely that the level of technological advancement had something to do with whether or not humans negotiated with a given people. The Tengu certainly weren't an advanced race technology wise, at a glance both their tribes seemed downright barbaric as a matter of fact, but that didn't stop the Canthans from attempting a peace summit.

Edit: So, i'v done some research into the subject of Forgotten contact with humans, and it varies by continent. In mainland Tyria the spread of humanity became too great and they were forced to pull back, this could be due to fighting, but it's also possible that they did this for the same reason they did not fight with the Canthans. During ancient Tyria Canthans nd Forgotten maintained a peaceful coexistence and one possible explanation for this is they did not compete for land or food resources, as humans spread through mainland Tyria that may not of been the case. Now because the Forgotten withdrew from the primary Tyrian continent doesn't strictly mean they came to blows, considering they served the same gods it's possible that the Forgotten chose to pull back rather then pursue a war for territory.

The most direct form of conflict I can find between the two races is from Turai Ossa and the Elonian Pilgrims, who mistook the Forgotten for creatures much like the Hydra in the region, the resulting attack triggering a war that wiped Turai Ossa's forces out.

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From its humble beginnings, this thread has become very entertaining ( and informative in many ways ). My thanks to everyone who participated.

As someone who only played GW1 sporaticaly and then, only into Nightfall, I was never all that attached to the humans of Ascalon ( could have been the voice acting ;) ) nor revolted by the Charr's methods. They were clearly a primitive race of savage beastmen and acted as such.

What I saw coming into GW2 though was the coolest beast race of any MMO. From the overall looks to the all fours running gait ( and yes even the hunch ). I knew rolling one that my new character would be hailing from an imperfect society where might makes right, much like a pack of predators on the hunt. A society where the military is the engine of developpement, both economic and societal. My Iron Legion warrior would be loyaly fighting for a system that couldn't last much longer ( whether he knew it or not ), headed by a commander-in-chief that actually saw the writing on the wall and was schrewed enough to attempt to re-invent Charr society to survive in a changing world... all the while making NO apologies for the victories of the past and the means taken to procure them. Because "Victory ... at any cost!" Isn't just a saying and when the dust settles, justification is left for the victors to decide.

I like that they have issues, I like that they did questionable, moraly ambiguous or downright monstrous things without blinking in the past in the pursuit of military goals. "We retook our lands of Ascalon ( not because it's our ancestral land but) because we conquered it a scant few years before you took it from us" seems like a perfectly valid thought process for a society whose cornerstone seems to be "survival of the fittest".

I also like that they have a progressive element that is making their world view evolve, peace treaties, commerce, acceptance of other races, etc... but still, a tiger may show you its belly and even let you scratch it... but it's not your pet.

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I really love the contrast of the Blood legion homelands in that it's a very pretty place and Bangar similarly is very good looking. He reminds me a lot of Scar from the lions king and it really contrasts well with his actual plans, the juxtaposition of the party, the good looking map and a very good antagonist makes this my favorite character in recent memory.

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As for early human history- it's very vexingly true that we know next to nothing about it, but I also find it telling that even the humans take it for granted that they were expansionistic warmongers. "They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control. This new race of creatures was none other than us humans, and in no time we began to take over... Soon humans had everything we required, and it was then that we began to prey upon the other creatures. We... took up residence in lands that did not belong to us. We became the masters of this world. We took all of the privilege and none of the responsibility. " That's a very telling indictment.

I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment that what sets humans apart isn't that they have always been better, from a moral perspective, but that they've actively taken strides in that direction. In GW1, the PC skins charr, scalps tengu, and collects centaur manes. Other races the humans were in contact with, excepting the dwarves and arguably djinn, were universally treated by human societies as monsters. Yes, there was a peace between the Angchu and Cantha, but not understanding or acceptance. Now, though? In Ghosts of Ascalon, the human that still expressed the exact same mindset as most humans in GW1 was treated as being unquestionably in the wrong. Things have changed.

The charr are simply at the beginning of their own shift. Up to this point, GW2 Iron Legion has been at a very similar place to GW1 Cantha. The traditional wars are over, and now it's a question of figuring out what peace is going to look like before they can try pursuing it. Which, to be fair, does not necessarily mean that the charr are going to wind up embracing equality and tolerance- Cantha didn't. It just means that they are going to have to start engaging with those questions and addressing them. The status quo isn't there to fall back on anymore.

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@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:As for early human history- it's very vexingly true that we know next to nothing about it, but I also find it telling that even the humans take it for granted that they were expansionistic warmongers. "They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control. This new race of creatures was none other than us humans, and in no time we began to take over... Soon humans had everything we required, and it was then that we began to prey upon the other creatures. We... took up residence in lands that did not belong to us. We became the masters of this world. We took all of the privilege and none of the responsibility. " That's a very telling indictment.

I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment that what sets humans apart isn't that they have always been better, from a moral perspective, but that they've actively taken strides in that direction. In GW1, the PC skins charr, scalps tengu, and collects centaur manes. Other races the humans were in contact with, excepting the dwarves and arguably djinn, were universally treated by human societies as monsters. Yes, there was a peace between the Angchu and Cantha, but not understanding or acceptance. Now, though? In Ghosts of Ascalon, the human that still expressed the exact same mindset as most humans in GW1 was treated as being unquestionably in the wrong. Things have changed.

The charr are simply at the beginning of their own shift. Up to this point, GW2 Iron Legion has been at a very similar place to GW1 Cantha. The traditional wars are over, and now it's a question of figuring out what peace is going to look like before they can try pursuing it. Which, to be fair, does not necessarily mean that the charr are going to wind up embracing equality and tolerance- Cantha didn't. It just means that they are going to have to start engaging with those questions and addressing them. The status quo isn't there to fall back on anymore.

In regards to history, humans are notoriously self flagellating about their own sins however. That's not to say those sins do not exist as they certainly do, but I wouldn't strictly say they are comparable with the Legions. You have your Minister Wona's, but you also have your Master Togos. Humans are horribly racist to other nations, but also capable of great understanding and empathy. Which is true of literally every species in guild wars as well as every person in real life, individuals are, after all, going to be individuals, with all the good, evil, and anything between.

What makes the difference is the systems they are raised and work in though. You can have all the good intentions in the world but it will ultimately not matter at all if the actual society in which they work is too broken for anything valuable to be produced. The good can never triumph over the evil if literally every facet of your society grates against your ability to be a compassionate person without getting stabbed in the neck. Every day in the Charr empire is a day where Palawa Joko and Oswald Thorn would be the best candidate to rule. Might makes right, where the other nations of the Tyria are ruled by more then just power.

That is the defining difference to me, and I figure that a lot of this season might be about the Charr transitioning to a system where your ability to rule is not defined by your capacity to kill.

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@Eddbopkins.2630 said:O man....I hope the charr don't align them self's with dark powers like the searing days and slaughter the humans again.

If they do maybe the Norn will help us this time instead if being traitors and allowing charr free rain to walk there territory.

The charr need to leave the lands they invaded/stole and return them to human control. They need to stop slaughtering the ansestral ghost of the ascalonian people and further destroying the once beautiful lands they ruined. There can be NO PEACE otherwise.

be proud, charr forever.

Die mouse! (Not irl, just your character)

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@Kahrgan.7401 said:

@"Eddbopkins.2630" said:O man....I hope the charr don't align them self's with dark powers like the searing days and slaughter the humans again.

If they do maybe the Norn will help us this time instead if being traitors and allowing charr free rain to walk there territory.

The charr need to leave the lands they invaded/stole and return them to human control. They need to stop slaughtering the ansestral ghost of the ascalonian people and further destroying the once beautiful lands they ruined. There can be NO PEACE otherwise.

be proud, charr forever.

Die mouse! (Not irl, just your character)

I missed the other comment, but I love when people are called "traitors" for... not helping people who are literally A: not of their nation/group, and B: not even the same race.

Like when Adelbern accused a Native Krytan, visiting Ascalon on a diplomatic aid mission, of high treason against Ascalon.

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@"witcher.3197" said:Like many others who grew up playing GW1, I've always loved pre-searing Ascalon. The place and the lore still has a special place in my heart, it's what truly hooked me into the franchise in general. I've leveled several characters to the point of getting the Legendary Defender of Ascalon title and I still log in from time to time just because of.. "sentimentality" - as Bangar would put it. In fact, a lot of people do - in 2019 pre-searing Ascalon City is STILL the second most populated town in GW1 after Kamadan (the main trade hub).

After GW2's launch I had to get used to the fact that Anet apparently despised everything about Ascalon, did a complete 180 and now we're supposed to not see the Charr as invaders, but allies. We help them kill ghosts of beloved characters over and over again, help them blow up statues, etc. That was a tough pill to swallow but I've made my peace with it.

Yet Anet never misses an opportunity to twist the knife even more.. the first entry of the Icebrood Saga was fairly promising gotta say, but despite that it still left a bad taste in my mouth.

Specifically the part where Bangar is playing the victim by saying something along the lines of "Why should we trust humans, they used to make armor out of our skins, treat us like animals, bruhuh :'( "

Well yeah sorry if you genocide an entire kingdom after nuking it from orbit, burn the women alive, take children for slaves, eat prisoners, be the trigger of a cataclysmic event destroying another kingdom entirely (Orr) while simultaneously invading a 3rd one (Kryta), you DON'T get to feel sorry for yourselves. But apparently Anet doesn't remember that part of the lore..

I guess my question is, why does Anet hate Ascalon so much? Why do they continously disrespect their own lore and try to push away a part of the people who are deeply invested in the GW universe? Why do you want me to hate something that I'm deeply attached to since childhood? Could you at least stop rubbing dirt in the wound? Pre-searing fans are people who care deeply about the world you've created Anet, on a level most studios/writers could only dream of. Yet all you've ever done since GW2 is push us away on purpose. Why?

been 200 years since that happened. People change their mentality in that same period of time in real life. I mean Slavery/Jim Crow in America was like only 60 years ago and most people today dont even remember their mentality back then. So 200 years could do the same in Tyria

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@Kahrgan.7401 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:O man....I hope the charr don't align them self's with dark powers like the searing days and slaughter the humans again.

If they do maybe the Norn will help us this time instead if being traitors and allowing charr free rain to walk there territory.

The charr need to leave the lands they invaded/stole and return them to human control. They need to stop slaughtering the ansestral ghost of the ascalonian people and further destroying the once beautiful lands they ruined. There can be NO PEACE otherwise.

be proud, charr forever.

Die mouse! (Not irl, just your character)

(in character as a charr hater)MOUSE?! LOOK here you oversized pussycat/goat faced ugos, now that you conquered all of Ascalon and slaughtered and eaten generations of people you want to make peace because you're being threatens by a greater power? A dragons. Just because your false Gods of the Titans and the cauldrons power have vanished I think it's time you reap what you sown.Time for Schrodinger's cat philosophy to happen. And this time you filled it with poison your self.

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@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@"witcher.3197" said:Like many others who grew up playing GW1, I've always loved pre-searing Ascalon. The place and the lore still has a special place in my heart, it's what truly hooked me into the franchise in general. I've leveled several characters to the point of getting the Legendary Defender of Ascalon title and I still log in from time to time just because of.. "sentimentality" - as Bangar would put it. In fact, a lot of people do - in 2019 pre-searing Ascalon City is STILL the second most populated town in GW1 after Kamadan (the main trade hub).

After GW2's launch I had to get used to the fact that Anet apparently despised everything about Ascalon, did a complete 180 and now we're supposed to not see the Charr as invaders, but allies. We help them kill ghosts of beloved characters over and over again, help them blow up statues, etc. That was a tough pill to swallow but I've made my peace with it.

Yet Anet never misses an opportunity to twist the knife even more.. the first entry of the Icebrood Saga was fairly promising gotta say, but despite that it still left a bad taste in my mouth.

Specifically the part where Bangar is playing the victim by saying something along the lines of "Why should we trust humans, they used to make armor out of our skins, treat us like animals, bruhuh :'( "

Well yeah sorry if you genocide an entire kingdom after nuking it from orbit, burn the women alive, take children for slaves, eat prisoners, be the trigger of a cataclysmic event destroying another kingdom entirely (Orr) while simultaneously invading a 3rd one (Kryta), you
DON'T
get to feel sorry for yourselves. But apparently Anet doesn't remember that part of the lore..

I guess my question is, why does Anet hate Ascalon so much? Why do they continously disrespect their own lore and try to push away a part of the people who are deeply invested in the GW universe? Why do you want me to hate something that I'm deeply attached to since childhood? Could you at least stop rubbing dirt in the wound? Pre-searing fans are people who care deeply about the world you've created Anet, on a level most studios/writers could only dream of. Yet all you've ever done since GW2 is
push us away on purpose
. Why?

been 200 years since that happened. People change their mentality in that same period of time in real life. I mean Slavery/Jim Crow in America was like only 60 years ago and most people today dont even remember their mentality back then. So 200 years could do the same in Tyria

On the other hand, though, people in the real world have also held onto grievances from much further back than the Searing. I was raised in a Christian household, and a significant part of that identity was a victim/martyrdom complex that was attributed to the actions of... Emperor Nero. A guy who, one thousand nine hundred and fifty-five years ago, supposedly carried out some atrocities in a nation that no longer exists, in a city that none of us had ever seen, to people that we don't even vaguely trace our roots to. But it was, somehow, still a reason to both feel threatened and to indirectly blame the Catholics.

Don't underestimate the capacity of a group identity to carry on a grudge long past the bounds of reason.

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@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@"witcher.3197" said:Like many others who grew up playing GW1, I've always loved pre-searing Ascalon. The place and the lore still has a special place in my heart, it's what truly hooked me into the franchise in general. I've leveled several characters to the point of getting the Legendary Defender of Ascalon title and I still log in from time to time just because of.. "sentimentality" - as Bangar would put it. In fact, a lot of people do - in 2019 pre-searing Ascalon City is STILL the second most populated town in GW1 after Kamadan (the main trade hub).

After GW2's launch I had to get used to the fact that Anet apparently despised everything about Ascalon, did a complete 180 and now we're supposed to not see the Charr as invaders, but allies. We help them kill ghosts of beloved characters over and over again, help them blow up statues, etc. That was a tough pill to swallow but I've made my peace with it.

Yet Anet never misses an opportunity to twist the knife even more.. the first entry of the Icebrood Saga was fairly promising gotta say, but despite that it still left a bad taste in my mouth.

Specifically the part where Bangar is playing the victim by saying something along the lines of "Why should we trust humans, they used to make armor out of our skins, treat us like animals, bruhuh :'( "

Well yeah sorry if you genocide an entire kingdom after nuking it from orbit, burn the women alive, take children for slaves, eat prisoners, be the trigger of a cataclysmic event destroying another kingdom entirely (Orr) while simultaneously invading a 3rd one (Kryta), you
DON'T
get to feel sorry for yourselves. But apparently Anet doesn't remember that part of the lore..

I guess my question is, why does Anet hate Ascalon so much? Why do they continously disrespect their own lore and try to push away a part of the people who are deeply invested in the GW universe? Why do you want me to hate something that I'm deeply attached to since childhood? Could you at least stop rubbing dirt in the wound? Pre-searing fans are people who care deeply about the world you've created Anet, on a level most studios/writers could only dream of. Yet all you've ever done since GW2 is
push us away on purpose
. Why?

been 200 years since that happened. People change their mentality in that same period of time in real life. I mean Slavery/Jim Crow in America was like only 60 years ago and most people today dont even remember their mentality back then. So 200 years could do the same in Tyria

On the other hand, though, people in the real world have also held onto grievances from much further back than the Searing. I was raised in a Christian household, and a significant part of that identity was a victim/martyrdom complex that was attributed to the actions of... Emperor Nero. A guy who, one thousand nine hundred and fifty-five years ago, supposedly carried out some atrocities in a nation that no longer exists, in a city that none of us had ever seen, to people that we don't even vaguely trace our roots to. But it was, somehow, still a reason to both feel threatened and to indirectly blame the Catholics.

Don't underestimate the capacity of a group identity to carry on a grudge long past the bounds of reason.

Agreed, and that I think would be even more true of both the Charr and humans. People overestimate how impactful the treaty is, my homeland went through a lot of such agreements and for the first ten years they were viewed more as just pieces of paper rather then bonds of lasting kinship. The war is fresh, and for that matter the Renegades and Separatists are still fresh. Humans experienced a bombing and Charr raid from inside it's walls not two years after the ceasefire was signed, and Sep activities have operations stretching from the Iron marches to Fireheart rise. If the Eclipse storyline is to be believed, that same fighting has been raging day and night for the roughly four years since it's signing.

Those actions dredge up old hatreds, violence begets violence, it's a cycle.

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@Kalavier.1097 said:

@"Eddbopkins.2630" said:O man....I hope the charr don't align them self's with dark powers like the searing days and slaughter the humans again.

If they do maybe the Norn will help us this time instead if being traitors and allowing charr free rain to walk there territory.

The charr need to leave the lands they invaded/stole and return them to human control. They need to stop slaughtering the ansestral ghost of the ascalonian people and further destroying the once beautiful lands they ruined. There can be NO PEACE otherwise.

be proud, charr forever.

Die mouse! (Not irl, just your character)

I missed the other comment, but I love when people are called "traitors" for... not helping people who are literally A: not of their nation/group, and B: not even the same race.

Like when Adelbern accused a Native Krytan, visiting Ascalon on a diplomatic aid mission, of high treason against Ascalon.

But he was sadly a white mantel who in the end proved to be an enemy, not all in the white mantel are the enemy they may have stoped the charr but at a price kiled their own people in secert for being chosen which would have included the hero of ascalon and his henchmen, and hero allies.

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@Telwyn.1630 said:But he was sadly a white mantel who in the end proved to be an enemy, not all in the white mantel are the enemy they may have stoped the charr but at a price kiled their own people in secert for being chosen which would have included the hero of ascalon and his henchmen, and hero allies.

A: Nobody knew the White Mantle had evil motives in Ascalon part of Prophecies.B: There isn't any indication they'd have taken people from Ascalon. That's too far a journey to frequently do across the shiverpeaks.C: Adelbern also refused, and is highly suspected of murdering the second ambassador that Kryta sent to Ascalon, asking for the Ebon vanguard to help them against the White Mantle, and in return they'd send food, medical supplies, and military support to drive back the Charr.

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