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Upcoming Ranger Changes - Extremely Sad

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  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Power stab is a 1s evade and has no cool down.
    I can't believe people are defending this :joy:

    No cooldown? It's not like Power Stab is the greatsword auto and I can just spam it nonstop.

    There are two attacks that come first that can be interrupted or kited.

    Imagine defending a 20k instant oneshot from stealth but thinking a 1s evade with a buildup is too strong. :joy:

    Power Stab is a 1s evade. FACT.
    Power Stab has no cool down. FACT.

    Nothing I said was incorrect, imagine discussing semantics when I stated FACTS. :joy:

    Proof: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Stab

    Shadowpass you obviously don't get that Apharma is just doing with your Ranger what you do with Mesmer traits and skills? Exaggerating and using stuff in a way that it looks like you want it to look, no matter that it is not rly true ingame. But that Mantras have a way bigger cooldown than in the tooltip duo to insane long recharge not only a passive cd but a active recharge makes the Mesmer or Fb very vulnerable and can even be interrupted you don't think you need to count in, what is simply wrong. Anyway you don't make sense at all, you are biased in every possible direction and you change your so called "facts" the way you need it and only when it comes to your main you finally wanna talk for real and not only what is on paper and exaggerate some tooltips.

    For the Greatsword autoattack, it clearly is unintended, you get a full 1 sec dodge in addition without an interrupt cd of 4 secs when canceling and you also can provoke it by making the skill simply not hit (means you don't even need to stow). I would be on your side when the skill can be canceled and you get like a very very short evade frame (0,1 secs something like old Blurred Frenzy) for the cost of 4 secs interrupt cd. Means you have to decide as a Mesmer if you wanna get 0.1 sec evade on 4 secs cd or 2,5 secs full Blurred duration incl. dmg application on a normal cd or if you as Ranger want to have a full 1 sec dodge during a normal autoattack chain + dmg application or if you want to have a 0.1 secs evade frame on 4 secs interrupt cd +another 1 secs dodge before chain restarts.

    Means i don't agree to @Tyga.7056 that it should not be possible at all to stow evade-skills as long as it has some opportunity costs, then it adds skill ceiling, then Shadowpass would be right, i think there would be no problem when you could do the same with Ranger Greatsword autoattack than with old Blurred. When you cancel it, it gives a clearly shorter evade frame but goes on interrrupt cd. There was and still is no need to delete this option for Blurred or Ranger autoattack in general and in that case clearly killed some skill ceiling.

    But atm Ranger Greatsword gives 2 full seconds evade without any interrupt cd (when you just not hit the skill) or with only 0,3 secs when you stow cancel it. That is not skillful that is just a no cost advantage clearly not intended and also not fair. Simply because it is a 3. chainskill makes it impossible to only add the normal stow-cancel interrupt cd to it. Because then it would mean that Rangers don't have any autoattack for the whole interrupt cd duration and these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling the skill for a 0,1 sec evade frame most of the time i guess. Or would you prefer it that way Shadowpass? I guess not. That brings us back to @Tyga.7056 suggestion to make the autoattack chain restart when canceling or not hit the 3. skill.

    I like how Anet removes all class specific buff request threads but never the nerf complain threads from PvP subforum :joy:

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @warherox.7943 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Yeah it's sad that at 2000 range and with skills like rapid fire and the soulbeast modifiers that they didn't nerf all the lb's dps across all its skill as it should be :) lb given its range and the safety it puts ranger in hits way to hard. Theres some great rangers out there that can fight great but the way ranger is now due to it's crazy ranged dps it promotes sitting back and just pew pew pew pew pew pew pew lol resulting in players being carried which is unhealthy for the game. Like alot of things are in this game lol.

    Just remove the projectile speed increases that Longbow got.This will let players strafe to avoid arrows like we used to be able to do at launch. It's a great mechanic in GW1 and should have been kept here.

    You mean make it so that 90% of our projectiles miss for no reason other than the fact that someone is spamming adadadadad?

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019

    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
  • @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @warherox.7943 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Yeah it's sad that at 2000 range and with skills like rapid fire and the soulbeast modifiers that they didn't nerf all the lb's dps across all its skill as it should be :) lb given its range and the safety it puts ranger in hits way to hard. Theres some great rangers out there that can fight great but the way ranger is now due to it's crazy ranged dps it promotes sitting back and just pew pew pew pew pew pew pew lol resulting in players being carried which is unhealthy for the game. Like alot of things are in this game lol.

    Just remove the projectile speed increases that Longbow got.This will let players strafe to avoid arrows like we used to be able to do at launch. It's a great mechanic in GW1 and should have been kept here.

    You mean make it so that 90% of our projectiles miss for no reason other than the fact that someone is spamming adadadadad?

    Seems fine to me.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @warherox.7943 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @warherox.7943 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Yeah it's sad that at 2000 range and with skills like rapid fire and the soulbeast modifiers that they didn't nerf all the lb's dps across all its skill as it should be :) lb given its range and the safety it puts ranger in hits way to hard. Theres some great rangers out there that can fight great but the way ranger is now due to it's crazy ranged dps it promotes sitting back and just pew pew pew pew pew pew pew lol resulting in players being carried which is unhealthy for the game. Like alot of things are in this game lol.

    Just remove the projectile speed increases that Longbow got.This will let players strafe to avoid arrows like we used to be able to do at launch. It's a great mechanic in GW1 and should have been kept here.

    You mean make it so that 90% of our projectiles miss for no reason other than the fact that someone is spamming adadadadad?

    Seems fine to me.

    lol

  • Lb projectile speed is fine. If anything pistol and rifle projectiles should be sped up. But both rifle DE and lb ranger need a shave in dps. Pistols aren't in nearly they same spot across the board lol

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.

    I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be timed pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (even though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.

    Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Power Stab was an exploit in Anet's eyes, and they bugfixed it.

    Then it would have said "Bug Fix" or "fix unintended behavior". It's a skill change, nothing more. If they were adressing this as a bug, they would (or should) have done something about how autoattacks flip when stowing your weapon. The trick you can do with it is a result of that, not because it has an evade on it.

    You're advertising this being "a bug" to make it fit your agenda. Anet has never called it a bug. Stop calling it a bug fix until they explicitly say that's the reasoning.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019

    @HeadCrowned.6834 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:
    I really try to understand people on this forum. What's the point of asking to nerf xyz class powercreep and at the same time defend the powercreep of your main class? Like really? I'll write this, every single class and spec in gw2 need massive nerfs, what ranger got was just a small poke to the hand "you are a very, very bad boi" and nothing beside that. There's still a lot of thingies that need nerfs on core ranger, soulbeast and druid aswell, a lot.
    People somehow got used to this unbalanced kitten stuff and think that it was intented since the beginning of the game and abused it with no end, but when a-net FINALLY decides to fix that some people just go nuts and start QQ "my class is unplayable" or "xyz class was deleted". Guys? What is wrong with you? Just because something was in the game since release, it doesn't mean that very specific behaviour of abc skill/trait was intended, it could be just overlooked, after all there is a kitten load of possible interactions with each traits/skills so it was really easy to do so. I'm pretty sure that even now, some people keep finding broken interactions, even though that things were in the game since release.

    Tell me, what nerfs does druid need?

    As long as you can spot one in WvW or PvP, it needs nerfs. Doesn't matter what nerfs, as long as it's a nerf.

    Actually, that could be their next patch note. "Spotted a Druid in sPvP. Reduced self-healing from Celestial Avatar skills by 50 %."

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.
    1. I disagree. If you want me to admit otherwise, link me a single post where you believe you're correct so I can read it again.
    2. I'm not biased. I play every single class and I find mesmer is probably the one I have the most fun on. There are builds I'd like to see nerfed on ranger and I'd like to see several other classes (including mesmer) receive buffs. However, I have the ability recognize when something is too strong. I'm in Aerospace and Mech Engineering and my focus is heavily on design and innovation. I'm good at pinpointing which areas are the best to focus on and develop further/first, where the problem areas are, and how to approach and construct the project in a way that not only performs well, but sells well/is easy to market. I also compete(d) professionally in several other games (shooters, BRs, MOBAs, etc. etc.) I understand balance very well.
    3. If you prove me wrong, I'll admit to it. But just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." isn't a valid argument.
  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.
    1. I disagree. If you want me to admit otherwise, link me a single post where you believe you're correct so I can read it again.
    2. I'm not biased. I play every single class and I find mesmer is probably the one I have the most fun on. There are builds I'd like to see nerfed on ranger and I'd like to see several other classes (including mesmer) receive buffs. However, I have the ability recognize when something is too strong. I'm in Aerospace and Mech Engineering and my focus is heavily on design and innovation. I'm good at pinpointing which areas are the best to focus on and develop further/first, where the problem areas are, and how to approach and construct the project in a way that not only performs well, but sells well/is easy to market. I also compete(d) professionally in several other games (shooters, BRs, MOBAs, etc. etc.) I understand balance very well.
    3. If you prove me wrong, I'll admit to it. But just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." isn't a valid argument.

    As said it is all there if you feel better by not rewatching stuff when i already told you where to look than it is your lazyness and not my problem. I mean i even gave you a pretty good summerary here in this thread, should already be enough.

    We disagree about you being biased or not. Also fine for me.

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    7 years, 0 complains, even after it was buffed once for 10% increase damage and a second time for 80% additional damage. Yet, it’s OPed, but only after anet releases these future “balance” changes, clearly this is a placebo effect...

    I and probably a lot of other ppl were always fully aware of that issue and not a fanboy of it. That GS Ranger was not overperforming because of it as a whole doesn't change the fact that 2 secs evade on an autoattack skill without any interrupt cd costs never was intended and also is not balanced or add any skill ceiling.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.
    1. I disagree. If you want me to admit otherwise, link me a single post where you believe you're correct so I can read it again.
    2. I'm not biased. I play every single class and I find mesmer is probably the one I have the most fun on. There are builds I'd like to see nerfed on ranger and I'd like to see several other classes (including mesmer) receive buffs. However, I have the ability recognize when something is too strong. I'm in Aerospace and Mech Engineering and my focus is heavily on design and innovation. I'm good at pinpointing which areas are the best to focus on and develop further/first, where the problem areas are, and how to approach and construct the project in a way that not only performs well, but sells well/is easy to market. I also compete(d) professionally in several other games (shooters, BRs, MOBAs, etc. etc.) I understand balance very well.
    3. If you prove me wrong, I'll admit to it. But just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." isn't a valid argument.

    1 As said it is all there if you feel better by not rewatching stuff when i already told you where to look than it is your lazyness and not my problem. We disagree about you being biased or not. Also fine for me.

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    7 years, 0 complains, even after it was buffed once for 10% increase damage and a second time for 80% additional damage. Yet, it’s OPed, but only after anet releases these future “balance” changes, clearly this is a placebo effect...

    1. I and probably a lot of other ppl were always fully aware of that issue and not a fanboy of it. That GS Ranger was not overperforming because of it as a whole doesn't change the fact that 2 secs evade on an autoattack skill without any interrupt cd costs never was intended and also is not balanced or add any skill ceiling.
    1. Don't call me lazy when you literally said, "Sry i am too lazy" when I asked you to link me a single post you think you proved me wrong in.
      Just saying, "You're biased." doesn't make me biased. It's an attempt to discredit me because you can't/refuse to prove me wrong.
    2. If it wasn't over/underperforming, that means that the weapon is balanced and should be left alone.
      Since you clearly don't know the definition of the term Skill Ceiling: A skill ceiling is the level of skill required to use a hero to their maximum potential.
      In other words, learning how to use the GS auto evades skillfully was necessary in order to reach the weapon's maximum potential. You're wrong here.
    1. Stop this bulls... pls. I already wasted more than enough time and wrote more than one wall of text explaining very well why you are wrong with a lot of things. I am too lazy because i already did it. It is all there, check it yourself. I even gave you a good summary here already. I did more than enough. It is your turn. Or just let it be i don't care.
    2. No it doesn't mean the weapon itself was balanced, 2 sec evade on an autoattackskill withotu any interrupt cd cost, i mean seriously how can you even defend that. Logic at it's best.
    3. I know the definition and i made a further distinction to it because needed in this case. Like the only part it add some more skill ceiling was the need of knowing about it. The moment you know about it it lowers the skill ceiling in the gameplay part itself. Simple.
    1. Then link it. :joy:
    2. "GS Ranger was not overperforming... also is not balanced." Okay way to contradict yourself. You can't say GS ranger isn't too strong but the weapon is.
    3. Well, thanks to me, now you know the definition of it. You clearly didn't know it before if you said that learning how to use the GS evades effectively does not increase the skill ceiling.

    Anyways maybe you don't make as much sense as I thought you did. Telling me to not run Chaos to prove that Mantras are too strong on their own was pretty illogical. Oh well.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.
    1. I disagree. If you want me to admit otherwise, link me a single post where you believe you're correct so I can read it again.
    2. I'm not biased. I play every single class and I find mesmer is probably the one I have the most fun on. There are builds I'd like to see nerfed on ranger and I'd like to see several other classes (including mesmer) receive buffs. However, I have the ability recognize when something is too strong. I'm in Aerospace and Mech Engineering and my focus is heavily on design and innovation. I'm good at pinpointing which areas are the best to focus on and develop further/first, where the problem areas are, and how to approach and construct the project in a way that not only performs well, but sells well/is easy to market. I also compete(d) professionally in several other games (shooters, BRs, MOBAs, etc. etc.) I understand balance very well.
    3. If you prove me wrong, I'll admit to it. But just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." isn't a valid argument.

    1 As said it is all there if you feel better by not rewatching stuff when i already told you where to look than it is your lazyness and not my problem. We disagree about you being biased or not. Also fine for me.

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    7 years, 0 complains, even after it was buffed once for 10% increase damage and a second time for 80% additional damage. Yet, it’s OPed, but only after anet releases these future “balance” changes, clearly this is a placebo effect...

    1. I and probably a lot of other ppl were always fully aware of that issue and not a fanboy of it. That GS Ranger was not overperforming because of it as a whole doesn't change the fact that 2 secs evade on an autoattack skill without any interrupt cd costs never was intended and also is not balanced or add any skill ceiling.
    1. Don't call me lazy when you literally said, "Sry i am too lazy" when I asked you to link me a single post you think you proved me wrong in.
      Just saying, "You're biased." doesn't make me biased. It's an attempt to discredit me because you can't/refuse to prove me wrong.
    2. If it wasn't over/underperforming, that means that the weapon is balanced and should be left alone.
      Since you clearly don't know the definition of the term Skill Ceiling: A skill ceiling is the level of skill required to use a hero to their maximum potential.
      In other words, learning how to use the GS auto evades skillfully was necessary in order to reach the weapon's maximum potential. You're wrong here.
    1. Stop this bulls... pls. I already wasted more than enough time and wrote more than one wall of text explaining very well why you are wrong with a lot of things. I am too lazy because i already did it. It is all there, check it yourself. I even gave you a good summary here already. I did more than enough. It is your turn. Or just let it be i don't care.
    2. No it doesn't mean the weapon itself was balanced, 2 sec evade on an autoattackskill withotu any interrupt cd cost, i mean seriously how can you even defend that. Logic at it's best.
    3. I know the definition and i made a further distinction to it because needed in this case. Like the only part it add some more skill ceiling was the need of knowing about it. The moment you know about it it lowers the skill ceiling in the gameplay part itself. Simple.
    1. Then link it. :joy:
    2. "GS Ranger was not overperforming... also is not balanced." Okay way to contradict yourself. You can't say GS ranger isn't too strong but the weapon is.
    3. Well, thanks to me, now you know the definition of it. You clearly didn't know it before if you said that learning how to use the GS evades effectively does not increase the skill ceiling.

    Anyways maybe you don't make as much sense as I thought you did. Telling me to not run Chaos to prove that Mantras are too strong on their own was pretty illogical. Oh well.

    1. Again: im not going through 7 sides of the thread because you already forgot everything i wrote. It is not my responsibility. If you forgot then re-read it yourself.
    2. A build has a lot of different parts working together. There can be one Part overperforming during it get compensated by other Parts underperforming. Just like a build that is op is not op because of everyhting it uses, there are specific things make it op and you always should balance the root problem. Also there can be broken mechanics, they can result into op stuff or not but even when not they are unhealthy. 2 sec evade spam on an autoattack skill without any cost from an interrupt cd is such thing. A 2 sec evade was not intended and is not balance nor does it add any skill ceiling in the gameplay part. It is simple no cost evade spam every ape can do. Simple because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abuse makes it not overly problematic. Still it should get fixed.
    3. Where we are at Chaosline Mesmer again. Your Core build is overperforming only because of Chaosline in the first place (added by only Mantra of Pain as secondary carry mechanic and has nothing to do at all with any other Mantra). You can play only PU core without any Mantra (or at least only with Mantra of Pain) and the result would be the same. During a Mantra Mesmer/ Mirage without stealthspam for days and without broken passsive sustain from a defensive line is not any issue to counter and to get killed, except for the braindead Mantra of Pain spam what will not rly kill any of the high sustain bruiser builds by its own. Go find my comments where i explained very detailed why the clips with Vallun you were showing don't prove anything about the brustcombo being uncounterable. The 2 times Vallun died were because he played bad. Go back to my post where i explained why your screens don't prove anything. or where i explained how many counters Mantra of Distraction has during you claim it has not a single one or the post where i tell you how you need to analyze Mantras cds as a whole with the recharge included. Just rewatch all my posts i quoted you. You can click on your notification symbol in above right corner of this forum page to do that. Or watch the summary i gave you in this thread, i mentioned a lot here already.
    4. I now rly will stop to answer to you before i get too triggered and say something i need to feel sry for later.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.
    1. I disagree. If you want me to admit otherwise, link me a single post where you believe you're correct so I can read it again.
    2. I'm not biased. I play every single class and I find mesmer is probably the one I have the most fun on. There are builds I'd like to see nerfed on ranger and I'd like to see several other classes (including mesmer) receive buffs. However, I have the ability recognize when something is too strong. I'm in Aerospace and Mech Engineering and my focus is heavily on design and innovation. I'm good at pinpointing which areas are the best to focus on and develop further/first, where the problem areas are, and how to approach and construct the project in a way that not only performs well, but sells well/is easy to market. I also compete(d) professionally in several other games (shooters, BRs, MOBAs, etc. etc.) I understand balance very well.
    3. If you prove me wrong, I'll admit to it. But just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." isn't a valid argument.

    1 As said it is all there if you feel better by not rewatching stuff when i already told you where to look than it is your lazyness and not my problem. We disagree about you being biased or not. Also fine for me.

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    7 years, 0 complains, even after it was buffed once for 10% increase damage and a second time for 80% additional damage. Yet, it’s OPed, but only after anet releases these future “balance” changes, clearly this is a placebo effect...

    1. I and probably a lot of other ppl were always fully aware of that issue and not a fanboy of it. That GS Ranger was not overperforming because of it as a whole doesn't change the fact that 2 secs evade on an autoattack skill without any interrupt cd costs never was intended and also is not balanced or add any skill ceiling.
    1. Don't call me lazy when you literally said, "Sry i am too lazy" when I asked you to link me a single post you think you proved me wrong in.
      Just saying, "You're biased." doesn't make me biased. It's an attempt to discredit me because you can't/refuse to prove me wrong.
    2. If it wasn't over/underperforming, that means that the weapon is balanced and should be left alone.
      Since you clearly don't know the definition of the term Skill Ceiling: A skill ceiling is the level of skill required to use a hero to their maximum potential.
      In other words, learning how to use the GS auto evades skillfully was necessary in order to reach the weapon's maximum potential. You're wrong here.
    1. Stop this bulls... pls. I already wasted more than enough time and wrote more than one wall of text explaining very well why you are wrong with a lot of things. I am too lazy because i already did it. It is all there, check it yourself. I even gave you a good summary here already. I did more than enough. It is your turn. Or just let it be i don't care.
    2. No it doesn't mean the weapon itself was balanced, 2 sec evade on an autoattackskill withotu any interrupt cd cost, i mean seriously how can you even defend that. Logic at it's best.
    3. I know the definition and i made a further distinction to it because needed in this case. Like the only part it add some more skill ceiling was the need of knowing about it. The moment you know about it it lowers the skill ceiling in the gameplay part itself. Simple.
    1. Then link it. :joy:
    2. "GS Ranger was not overperforming... also is not balanced." Okay way to contradict yourself. You can't say GS ranger isn't too strong but the weapon is.
    3. Well, thanks to me, now you know the definition of it. You clearly didn't know it before if you said that learning how to use the GS evades effectively does not increase the skill ceiling.

    Anyways maybe you don't make as much sense as I thought you did. Telling me to not run Chaos to prove that Mantras are too strong on their own was pretty illogical. Oh well.

    1. Again: im not going through 7 sides of the thread because you already forgot everything i wrote. It is not my responsibility. If you forgot then re-read it yourself.
    2. A build has a lot of different parts working together. There can be one Part overperforming during it get compensated by other Parts underperforming. Just like a build that is op is not op because of everyhting it uses, there are specific things make it op and you always should balance the root problem. Also there can be broken mechanics, they can result into op stuff or not but even when not they are unhealthy. 2 sec evade spam on an autoattack skill without any cost from an interrupt cd is such thing. A 2 sec evade was not intended and is not balance nor does it add any skill ceiling in the gameplay part. It is simple no cost evade spam every ape can do. Simple because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abuse makes it not overly problematic. Still it should get fixed.
    3. Where we are at Chaosline Mesmer again. Your Core build is overperforming only because of Chaosline in the first place (added by only Mantra of Pain as secondary carry mechanic and has nothing to do at all with any other Mantra). You can play only PU core without any Mantra (or at least only with Mantra of Pain) and the result would be the same. During a Mantra Mesmer/ Mirage without stealthspam for days and without broken passsive sustain from a defensive line is not any issue to counter and to get killed, except for the braindead Mantra of Pain spam what will not rly kill any of the high sustain bruiser builds by its own. Go find my comments where i explained very detailed why the clips with Vallun you were showing don't prove anything about the brustcombo being uncounterable. The 2 times Vallun died were because he played bad. Go back to my post where i explained why your screens don't prove anything. or where i explained how many counters Mantra of Distraction has during you claim it has not a single one or the post where i tell you how you need to analyze Mantras cds as a whole with the recharge included. Just rewatch all my posts i quoted you. You can click on your notification symbol in above right corner of this forum page to do that. Or watch the summary i gave you in this thread, i mentioned a lot here already.
    4. I now rly will stop to answer to you before i get too triggered and say something i need to feel sry for later.
    1. As I've stated previously, I do not believe you proved me wrong. If you say otherwise, then link me a single post where you believe this to be true.
      Your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      So again, it's illogical and incorrect of you to assume that it's my job to constantly disprove all of the claims you're flinging around.
    2. Sure but if the build as a whole isn't overperforming, then nerfing aspects of it will cause it to underperform. And as several other people have stated, the change is not a bug fix.
    3. The issue I have with mantras is it's ability to oneshot from stealth. The Mirage variant of mantras is not only more popular, but stronger and arguably more effective. Mur plays this version in the top 10. Mirage mantras is more mobile, has more cc, and way more survivability. The screenshots, clips, and raw gameplay footage I've posted are direct proof of my claims. Again, just because you say they don't, doesn't mean anything.
    4. Bye!
    1. Holy cow you don't get it, i already made all the effort to prove you wrong, if you forgot about that and even don't read the summary i gave several times in this thread it is your problem.
    2. As said in this case it was not overly problematic because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abused here. That always will get less of complains and will cause less big issues than if you could hit a skill doing 10k dmg twice instead of one time as intended. It will not kill GS Ranger just as it didn't make it insane broken.
    3. As said you can onehsot ppl completely without Mantras used. The only Mantra makes it even easier and has a SECONDARY relation to the oneshot out of stealth for days problematic is Mantra of Pain, no other Mantra, ONLY this one. The main issue from your build is Chaosline and no, a Powermirage (using Domination; Duelling or Illusion) doesn't have more sustain than that and the sustain a Mirage has is way more active than from Chaosline. A Powermirage even with double Mantra is nothing i fear no matter on what class (except some Necrobuilds), all their moves are counterable and predictable and it can be killed without problems. Choaline PU is a different story and that is mostly caused by Chaosline. But again, just re-read the Mesmer thread, it is all writen there and at some point you even made one comment that you agree with me, right after i left the thread. In the end you didn't rly agree... i guess you only didn't have any arguments left at that point and kind of surrendered to then come back later and use the same wrong arguments vs other ppl again. Waste of time dealing with you as said. I also don't just say somethign is wrong or right, i always explain very detailed. But you seems to forget anyway, who cares. Continue with your nonsense. This is a Ranger thread, i stop talking about Mesmer now here in general.
    4. Bye!
    1. Effort =/= results. You did not prove me wrong, just because you spent time and effort and say you did... doesn't mean you actually did. For the umpteenth time, link me a post where you believe this to be true and I'll reconsider.
    2. Sorry I think your logic is faulty again. A Mirage's ability to dodge while cc'd is a pure defensive mechanic that gets abused and it is frequently complained about. The same logic applies across the board. For example, Full Counter used to be on too low of a cooldown and present-day Holosmiths have too much sustain. People are vocal about overtuned defensive mechanics. However, I have never heard anyone complaining about GS autos until the upcoming balance patch's preview was released.
    3. I think Chaos is very strong but it's not the cause for Mantras being overpowered. They are both overtuned and deserving on nerfs.
      Again, your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      All of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    4. Bye!
  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.
    1. I disagree. If you want me to admit otherwise, link me a single post where you believe you're correct so I can read it again.
    2. I'm not biased. I play every single class and I find mesmer is probably the one I have the most fun on. There are builds I'd like to see nerfed on ranger and I'd like to see several other classes (including mesmer) receive buffs. However, I have the ability recognize when something is too strong. I'm in Aerospace and Mech Engineering and my focus is heavily on design and innovation. I'm good at pinpointing which areas are the best to focus on and develop further/first, where the problem areas are, and how to approach and construct the project in a way that not only performs well, but sells well/is easy to market. I also compete(d) professionally in several other games (shooters, BRs, MOBAs, etc. etc.) I understand balance very well.
    3. If you prove me wrong, I'll admit to it. But just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." isn't a valid argument.

    1 As said it is all there if you feel better by not rewatching stuff when i already told you where to look than it is your lazyness and not my problem. We disagree about you being biased or not. Also fine for me.

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    7 years, 0 complains, even after it was buffed once for 10% increase damage and a second time for 80% additional damage. Yet, it’s OPed, but only after anet releases these future “balance” changes, clearly this is a placebo effect...

    1. I and probably a lot of other ppl were always fully aware of that issue and not a fanboy of it. That GS Ranger was not overperforming because of it as a whole doesn't change the fact that 2 secs evade on an autoattack skill without any interrupt cd costs never was intended and also is not balanced or add any skill ceiling.
    1. Don't call me lazy when you literally said, "Sry i am too lazy" when I asked you to link me a single post you think you proved me wrong in.
      Just saying, "You're biased." doesn't make me biased. It's an attempt to discredit me because you can't/refuse to prove me wrong.
    2. If it wasn't over/underperforming, that means that the weapon is balanced and should be left alone.
      Since you clearly don't know the definition of the term Skill Ceiling: A skill ceiling is the level of skill required to use a hero to their maximum potential.
      In other words, learning how to use the GS auto evades skillfully was necessary in order to reach the weapon's maximum potential. You're wrong here.
    1. Stop this bulls... pls. I already wasted more than enough time and wrote more than one wall of text explaining very well why you are wrong with a lot of things. I am too lazy because i already did it. It is all there, check it yourself. I even gave you a good summary here already. I did more than enough. It is your turn. Or just let it be i don't care.
    2. No it doesn't mean the weapon itself was balanced, 2 sec evade on an autoattackskill withotu any interrupt cd cost, i mean seriously how can you even defend that. Logic at it's best.
    3. I know the definition and i made a further distinction to it because needed in this case. Like the only part it add some more skill ceiling was the need of knowing about it. The moment you know about it it lowers the skill ceiling in the gameplay part itself. Simple.
    1. Then link it. :joy:
    2. "GS Ranger was not overperforming... also is not balanced." Okay way to contradict yourself. You can't say GS ranger isn't too strong but the weapon is.
    3. Well, thanks to me, now you know the definition of it. You clearly didn't know it before if you said that learning how to use the GS evades effectively does not increase the skill ceiling.

    Anyways maybe you don't make as much sense as I thought you did. Telling me to not run Chaos to prove that Mantras are too strong on their own was pretty illogical. Oh well.

    1. Again: im not going through 7 sides of the thread because you already forgot everything i wrote. It is not my responsibility. If you forgot then re-read it yourself.
    2. A build has a lot of different parts working together. There can be one Part overperforming during it get compensated by other Parts underperforming. Just like a build that is op is not op because of everyhting it uses, there are specific things make it op and you always should balance the root problem. Also there can be broken mechanics, they can result into op stuff or not but even when not they are unhealthy. 2 sec evade spam on an autoattack skill without any cost from an interrupt cd is such thing. A 2 sec evade was not intended and is not balance nor does it add any skill ceiling in the gameplay part. It is simple no cost evade spam every ape can do. Simple because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abuse makes it not overly problematic. Still it should get fixed.
    3. Where we are at Chaosline Mesmer again. Your Core build is overperforming only because of Chaosline in the first place (added by only Mantra of Pain as secondary carry mechanic and has nothing to do at all with any other Mantra). You can play only PU core without any Mantra (or at least only with Mantra of Pain) and the result would be the same. During a Mantra Mesmer/ Mirage without stealthspam for days and without broken passsive sustain from a defensive line is not any issue to counter and to get killed, except for the braindead Mantra of Pain spam what will not rly kill any of the high sustain bruiser builds by its own. Go find my comments where i explained very detailed why the clips with Vallun you were showing don't prove anything about the brustcombo being uncounterable. The 2 times Vallun died were because he played bad. Go back to my post where i explained why your screens don't prove anything. or where i explained how many counters Mantra of Distraction has during you claim it has not a single one or the post where i tell you how you need to analyze Mantras cds as a whole with the recharge included. Just rewatch all my posts i quoted you. You can click on your notification symbol in above right corner of this forum page to do that. Or watch the summary i gave you in this thread, i mentioned a lot here already.
    4. I now rly will stop to answer to you before i get too triggered and say something i need to feel sry for later.
    1. As I've stated previously, I do not believe you proved me wrong. If you say otherwise, then link me a single post where you believe this to be true.
      Your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      So again, it's illogical and incorrect of you to assume that it's my job to constantly disprove all of the claims you're flinging around.
    2. Sure but if the build as a whole isn't overperforming, then nerfing aspects of it will cause it to underperform. And as several other people have stated, the change is not a bug fix.
    3. The issue I have with mantras is it's ability to oneshot from stealth. The Mirage variant of mantras is not only more popular, but stronger and arguably more effective. Mur plays this version in the top 10. Mirage mantras is more mobile, has more cc, and way more survivability. The screenshots, clips, and raw gameplay footage I've posted are direct proof of my claims. Again, just because you say they don't, doesn't mean anything.
    4. Bye!
    1. Holy cow you don't get it, i already made all the effort to prove you wrong, if you forgot about that and even don't read the summary i gave several times in this thread it is your problem.
    2. As said in this case it was not overly problematic because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abused here. That always will get less of complains and will cause less big issues than if you could hit a skill doing 10k dmg twice instead of one time as intended. It will not kill GS Ranger just as it didn't make it insane broken.
    3. As said you can onehsot ppl completely without Mantras used. The only Mantra makes it even easier and has a SECONDARY relation to the oneshot out of stealth for days problematic is Mantra of Pain, no other Mantra, ONLY this one. The main issue from your build is Chaosline and no, a Powermirage (using Domination; Duelling or Illusion) doesn't have more sustain than that and the sustain a Mirage has is way more active than from Chaosline. A Powermirage even with double Mantra is nothing i fear no matter on what class (except some Necrobuilds), all their moves are counterable and predictable and it can be killed without problems. Choaline PU is a different story and that is mostly caused by Chaosline. But again, just re-read the Mesmer thread, it is all writen there and at some point you even made one comment that you agree with me, right after i left the thread. In the end you didn't rly agree... i guess you only didn't have any arguments left at that point and kind of surrendered to then come back later and use the same wrong arguments vs other ppl again. Waste of time dealing with you as said. I also don't just say somethign is wrong or right, i always explain very detailed. But you seems to forget anyway, who cares. Continue with your nonsense. This is a Ranger thread, i stop talking about Mesmer now here in general.
    4. Bye!
    1. Effort =/= results. You did not prove me wrong, just because you spent time and effort and say you did... doesn't mean you actually did. For the umpteenth time, link me a post where you believe this to be true and I'll reconsider.
    2. Sorry I think your logic is faulty again. A Mirage's ability to dodge while cc'd is a pure defensive mechanic that gets abused and it is frequently complained about. The same logic applies across the board. For example, Full Counter used to be on too low of a cooldown and present-day Holosmiths have too much sustain. People are vocal about overtuned defensive mechanics. However, I have never heard anyone complaining about GS autos until the upcoming balance patch's preview was released.
    3. I think Chaos is very strong but it's not the cause for Mantras being overpowered. They are both overtuned and deserving on nerfs.
      Again, your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      All of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    4. Bye!
    1. It is threre black on white, i also gave you enough examples as a summary (without re writing my whole argumentation because again: this is a Ranger not a Mesmer thread) just you being too lazy to re-read the thread after you forgot everything, it seems even your own post where you agree to me, doesn't make it unhappen lol. But nice try.
    2. Mirage ability to dodge while cced is intended mechanic and even baseline mechanic of the spec, what do you even compare here? Holo sustain as a whole is broken as hell in particular combined with the perma miniburst dmg, high cc uptime and good mobility. Ofc ppl complain more about that. No one ever said that the 3. skill of Ranger GS auto is comparable broken. Fullcounter has a high offensive component in addition to all the defense. Another comparison doesn't make sense. And in the end, how much the bunch of left in the game gold plebs complain about anything or not never was a good indicator of what is op or unhealthy mechanic or not. As said it doesn't make GS Ranger utterly broken but finally fixing it will also not kill the weapon. And fixing it is by logic the correct, although late move.
    3. Nope as said read the Mesmer thread again, there i explained and founded everything very detailed, i don't do it here again. I don't list all the counterplay to MoD and the difference to MoP and why MoD is not broken or op in any means and also not needed for the oneshot, and i don't re-write anything, i did already give a good summary, more then enough for you to be able to remember. I don't do the reasearch for you, it is not my responsibility to do it again. It is all writen and what do ppl do when they forgot about something? They read the book again they learnt it from. It is all there, i don't start that kitten from zero. So again nice try to contradict all the effort i did already in Mesmer thread in a Ranger channel with this nonsense request. Re-read my posts i quoted you or don't. Up to you, i already made my points and they all still stand.
    4. Bye again (yeah yeah nonsense always able to trigger me, sad life)

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.
    1. I disagree. If you want me to admit otherwise, link me a single post where you believe you're correct so I can read it again.
    2. I'm not biased. I play every single class and I find mesmer is probably the one I have the most fun on. There are builds I'd like to see nerfed on ranger and I'd like to see several other classes (including mesmer) receive buffs. However, I have the ability recognize when something is too strong. I'm in Aerospace and Mech Engineering and my focus is heavily on design and innovation. I'm good at pinpointing which areas are the best to focus on and develop further/first, where the problem areas are, and how to approach and construct the project in a way that not only performs well, but sells well/is easy to market. I also compete(d) professionally in several other games (shooters, BRs, MOBAs, etc. etc.) I understand balance very well.
    3. If you prove me wrong, I'll admit to it. But just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." isn't a valid argument.

    1 As said it is all there if you feel better by not rewatching stuff when i already told you where to look than it is your lazyness and not my problem. We disagree about you being biased or not. Also fine for me.

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    7 years, 0 complains, even after it was buffed once for 10% increase damage and a second time for 80% additional damage. Yet, it’s OPed, but only after anet releases these future “balance” changes, clearly this is a placebo effect...

    1. I and probably a lot of other ppl were always fully aware of that issue and not a fanboy of it. That GS Ranger was not overperforming because of it as a whole doesn't change the fact that 2 secs evade on an autoattack skill without any interrupt cd costs never was intended and also is not balanced or add any skill ceiling.
    1. Don't call me lazy when you literally said, "Sry i am too lazy" when I asked you to link me a single post you think you proved me wrong in.
      Just saying, "You're biased." doesn't make me biased. It's an attempt to discredit me because you can't/refuse to prove me wrong.
    2. If it wasn't over/underperforming, that means that the weapon is balanced and should be left alone.
      Since you clearly don't know the definition of the term Skill Ceiling: A skill ceiling is the level of skill required to use a hero to their maximum potential.
      In other words, learning how to use the GS auto evades skillfully was necessary in order to reach the weapon's maximum potential. You're wrong here.
    1. Stop this bulls... pls. I already wasted more than enough time and wrote more than one wall of text explaining very well why you are wrong with a lot of things. I am too lazy because i already did it. It is all there, check it yourself. I even gave you a good summary here already. I did more than enough. It is your turn. Or just let it be i don't care.
    2. No it doesn't mean the weapon itself was balanced, 2 sec evade on an autoattackskill withotu any interrupt cd cost, i mean seriously how can you even defend that. Logic at it's best.
    3. I know the definition and i made a further distinction to it because needed in this case. Like the only part it add some more skill ceiling was the need of knowing about it. The moment you know about it it lowers the skill ceiling in the gameplay part itself. Simple.
    1. Then link it. :joy:
    2. "GS Ranger was not overperforming... also is not balanced." Okay way to contradict yourself. You can't say GS ranger isn't too strong but the weapon is.
    3. Well, thanks to me, now you know the definition of it. You clearly didn't know it before if you said that learning how to use the GS evades effectively does not increase the skill ceiling.

    Anyways maybe you don't make as much sense as I thought you did. Telling me to not run Chaos to prove that Mantras are too strong on their own was pretty illogical. Oh well.

    1. Again: im not going through 7 sides of the thread because you already forgot everything i wrote. It is not my responsibility. If you forgot then re-read it yourself.
    2. A build has a lot of different parts working together. There can be one Part overperforming during it get compensated by other Parts underperforming. Just like a build that is op is not op because of everyhting it uses, there are specific things make it op and you always should balance the root problem. Also there can be broken mechanics, they can result into op stuff or not but even when not they are unhealthy. 2 sec evade spam on an autoattack skill without any cost from an interrupt cd is such thing. A 2 sec evade was not intended and is not balance nor does it add any skill ceiling in the gameplay part. It is simple no cost evade spam every ape can do. Simple because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abuse makes it not overly problematic. Still it should get fixed.
    3. Where we are at Chaosline Mesmer again. Your Core build is overperforming only because of Chaosline in the first place (added by only Mantra of Pain as secondary carry mechanic and has nothing to do at all with any other Mantra). You can play only PU core without any Mantra (or at least only with Mantra of Pain) and the result would be the same. During a Mantra Mesmer/ Mirage without stealthspam for days and without broken passsive sustain from a defensive line is not any issue to counter and to get killed, except for the braindead Mantra of Pain spam what will not rly kill any of the high sustain bruiser builds by its own. Go find my comments where i explained very detailed why the clips with Vallun you were showing don't prove anything about the brustcombo being uncounterable. The 2 times Vallun died were because he played bad. Go back to my post where i explained why your screens don't prove anything. or where i explained how many counters Mantra of Distraction has during you claim it has not a single one or the post where i tell you how you need to analyze Mantras cds as a whole with the recharge included. Just rewatch all my posts i quoted you. You can click on your notification symbol in above right corner of this forum page to do that. Or watch the summary i gave you in this thread, i mentioned a lot here already.
    4. I now rly will stop to answer to you before i get too triggered and say something i need to feel sry for later.
    1. As I've stated previously, I do not believe you proved me wrong. If you say otherwise, then link me a single post where you believe this to be true.
      Your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      So again, it's illogical and incorrect of you to assume that it's my job to constantly disprove all of the claims you're flinging around.
    2. Sure but if the build as a whole isn't overperforming, then nerfing aspects of it will cause it to underperform. And as several other people have stated, the change is not a bug fix.
    3. The issue I have with mantras is it's ability to oneshot from stealth. The Mirage variant of mantras is not only more popular, but stronger and arguably more effective. Mur plays this version in the top 10. Mirage mantras is more mobile, has more cc, and way more survivability. The screenshots, clips, and raw gameplay footage I've posted are direct proof of my claims. Again, just because you say they don't, doesn't mean anything.
    4. Bye!
    1. Holy cow you don't get it, i already made all the effort to prove you wrong, if you forgot about that and even don't read the summary i gave several times in this thread it is your problem.
    2. As said in this case it was not overly problematic because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abused here. That always will get less of complains and will cause less big issues than if you could hit a skill doing 10k dmg twice instead of one time as intended. It will not kill GS Ranger just as it didn't make it insane broken.
    3. As said you can onehsot ppl completely without Mantras used. The only Mantra makes it even easier and has a SECONDARY relation to the oneshot out of stealth for days problematic is Mantra of Pain, no other Mantra, ONLY this one. The main issue from your build is Chaosline and no, a Powermirage (using Domination; Duelling or Illusion) doesn't have more sustain than that and the sustain a Mirage has is way more active than from Chaosline. A Powermirage even with double Mantra is nothing i fear no matter on what class (except some Necrobuilds), all their moves are counterable and predictable and it can be killed without problems. Choaline PU is a different story and that is mostly caused by Chaosline. But again, just re-read the Mesmer thread, it is all writen there and at some point you even made one comment that you agree with me, right after i left the thread. In the end you didn't rly agree... i guess you only didn't have any arguments left at that point and kind of surrendered to then come back later and use the same wrong arguments vs other ppl again. Waste of time dealing with you as said. I also don't just say somethign is wrong or right, i always explain very detailed. But you seems to forget anyway, who cares. Continue with your nonsense. This is a Ranger thread, i stop talking about Mesmer now here in general.
    4. Bye!
    1. Effort =/= results. You did not prove me wrong, just because you spent time and effort and say you did... doesn't mean you actually did. For the umpteenth time, link me a post where you believe this to be true and I'll reconsider.
    2. Sorry I think your logic is faulty again. A Mirage's ability to dodge while cc'd is a pure defensive mechanic that gets abused and it is frequently complained about. The same logic applies across the board. For example, Full Counter used to be on too low of a cooldown and present-day Holosmiths have too much sustain. People are vocal about overtuned defensive mechanics. However, I have never heard anyone complaining about GS autos until the upcoming balance patch's preview was released.
    3. I think Chaos is very strong but it's not the cause for Mantras being overpowered. They are both overtuned and deserving on nerfs.
      Again, your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      All of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    4. Bye!
    1. It is threre black on white, i also gave you enough examples as a summary (without re writing my whole argumentation because again: this is a Ranger not a Mesmer thread) just you being too lazy to re-read the thread after you forgot everything, it seems even your own post where you agree to me, doesn't make it unhappen lol. But nice try.
    2. Mirage ability to dodge while cced is intended mechanic and even baseline mechanic of the spec, what do you even compare here? Holo sustain as a whole is broken as hell in particular combined with the perma miniburst dmg, high cc uptime and good mobility. Ofc ppl complain more about that. No one ever said that the 3. skill of Ranger GS auto is comparable broken. Fullcounter has a high offensive component in addition to all the defense. Another comparison doesn't make sense. And in the end, how much the bunch of left in the game gold plebs complain about anything or not never was a good indicator of what is op or unhealthy mechanic or not. As said it doesn't make GS Ranger utterly broken but finally fixing it will also not kill the weapon. And fixing it is by logic the correct, although late move.
    3. Nope as said read the Mesmer thread again, there i explained and founded everything very detailed, i don't do it here again. I don't list all the counterplay to MoD and the difference to MoP and why MoD is not broken or op in any means and also not needed for the oneshot, and i don't re-write anything, i did already give a good summary, more then enough for you to be able to remember. I don't do the reasearch for you, it is not my responsibility to do it again. It is all writen and what do ppl do when they forgot about something? They read the book again they learnt it from. It is all there, i don't start that kitten from zero. So again nice try to contradict all the effort i did already in Mesmer thread in a Ranger channel with this nonsense request. Re-read my posts i quoted you or don't. Up to you, i already made my points and they all still stand.
    4. Bye again (yeah yeah nonsense always able to trigger me, sad life)
    1. The funny thing is if I was in your shoes I would just link a post to prove my point because it's easy. You haven't linked me any of them because you don't think you've actually proved me wrong.
    2. I never said that a Mirage's ability to dodge while cc'd wasn't an intended mechanic. Stop trying to twist my words. All I said was that it's a pure defensive mechanic that gets abused and frequently complained about. Again, the same applies to pre-nerf Full Counter and current Holosmith defense/sustain. You said people complain more about overtuned offensive mechanics compared to defensive ones. That's where I disagreed and provided examples of why I have that opinion.
    3. Again, all of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    4. Bye again!
  • @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.
    1. I disagree. If you want me to admit otherwise, link me a single post where you believe you're correct so I can read it again.
    2. I'm not biased. I play every single class and I find mesmer is probably the one I have the most fun on. There are builds I'd like to see nerfed on ranger and I'd like to see several other classes (including mesmer) receive buffs. However, I have the ability recognize when something is too strong. I'm in Aerospace and Mech Engineering and my focus is heavily on design and innovation. I'm good at pinpointing which areas are the best to focus on and develop further/first, where the problem areas are, and how to approach and construct the project in a way that not only performs well, but sells well/is easy to market. I also compete(d) professionally in several other games (shooters, BRs, MOBAs, etc. etc.) I understand balance very well.
    3. If you prove me wrong, I'll admit to it. But just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." isn't a valid argument.

    As said it is all there if you feel better by not rewatching stuff when i already told you where to look than it is your lazyness and not my problem. I mean i even gave you a pretty good summerary here in this thread, should already be enough.

    We disagree about you being biased or not. Also fine for me.

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    7 years, 0 complains, even after it was buffed once for 10% increase damage and a second time for 80% additional damage. Yet, it’s OPed, but only after anet releases these future “balance” changes, clearly this is a placebo effect...

    I and probably a lot of other ppl were always fully aware of that issue and not a fanboy of it. That GS Ranger was not overperforming because of it as a whole doesn't change the fact that 2 secs evade on an autoattack skill without any interrupt cd costs never was intended and also is not balanced or add any skill ceiling.

    So even with the evade, the weapon isn’t over performing as a whole... yet it’s not balanced? 0.o

    Why not just change so stow weapon so that it resets your auto attack chain to the first attack in the sequence and let great sword keep powerstab?

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.
    1. I disagree. If you want me to admit otherwise, link me a single post where you believe you're correct so I can read it again.
    2. I'm not biased. I play every single class and I find mesmer is probably the one I have the most fun on. There are builds I'd like to see nerfed on ranger and I'd like to see several other classes (including mesmer) receive buffs. However, I have the ability recognize when something is too strong. I'm in Aerospace and Mech Engineering and my focus is heavily on design and innovation. I'm good at pinpointing which areas are the best to focus on and develop further/first, where the problem areas are, and how to approach and construct the project in a way that not only performs well, but sells well/is easy to market. I also compete(d) professionally in several other games (shooters, BRs, MOBAs, etc. etc.) I understand balance very well.
    3. If you prove me wrong, I'll admit to it. But just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." isn't a valid argument.

    As said it is all there if you feel better by not rewatching stuff when i already told you where to look than it is your lazyness and not my problem. I mean i even gave you a pretty good summerary here in this thread, should already be enough.

    We disagree about you being biased or not. Also fine for me.

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    7 years, 0 complains, even after it was buffed once for 10% increase damage and a second time for 80% additional damage. Yet, it’s OPed, but only after anet releases these future “balance” changes, clearly this is a placebo effect...

    I and probably a lot of other ppl were always fully aware of that issue and not a fanboy of it. That GS Ranger was not overperforming because of it as a whole doesn't change the fact that 2 secs evade on an autoattack skill without any interrupt cd costs never was intended and also is not balanced or add any skill ceiling.

    So even with the evade, the weapon isn’t over performing as a whole... yet it’s not balanced? 0.o

    Why not just change so stow weapon so that it resets your auto attack chain to the first attack in the sequence and let great sword keep powerstab?

    It was overperforming but only slightly. I never said the way they changed it was that good. I agreed to Tyga on just make the chain reset when the 3. skill get canceled or don't hit anything. Deleting the evade is overkilling. The 15 endurance on hit as compansation is not rly enough.

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.
    1. I disagree. If you want me to admit otherwise, link me a single post where you believe you're correct so I can read it again.
    2. I'm not biased. I play every single class and I find mesmer is probably the one I have the most fun on. There are builds I'd like to see nerfed on ranger and I'd like to see several other classes (including mesmer) receive buffs. However, I have the ability recognize when something is too strong. I'm in Aerospace and Mech Engineering and my focus is heavily on design and innovation. I'm good at pinpointing which areas are the best to focus on and develop further/first, where the problem areas are, and how to approach and construct the project in a way that not only performs well, but sells well/is easy to market. I also compete(d) professionally in several other games (shooters, BRs, MOBAs, etc. etc.) I understand balance very well.
    3. If you prove me wrong, I'll admit to it. But just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." isn't a valid argument.

    1 As said it is all there if you feel better by not rewatching stuff when i already told you where to look than it is your lazyness and not my problem. We disagree about you being biased or not. Also fine for me.

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    7 years, 0 complains, even after it was buffed once for 10% increase damage and a second time for 80% additional damage. Yet, it’s OPed, but only after anet releases these future “balance” changes, clearly this is a placebo effect...

    1. I and probably a lot of other ppl were always fully aware of that issue and not a fanboy of it. That GS Ranger was not overperforming because of it as a whole doesn't change the fact that 2 secs evade on an autoattack skill without any interrupt cd costs never was intended and also is not balanced or add any skill ceiling.
    1. Don't call me lazy when you literally said, "Sry i am too lazy" when I asked you to link me a single post you think you proved me wrong in.
      Just saying, "You're biased." doesn't make me biased. It's an attempt to discredit me because you can't/refuse to prove me wrong.
    2. If it wasn't over/underperforming, that means that the weapon is balanced and should be left alone.
      Since you clearly don't know the definition of the term Skill Ceiling: A skill ceiling is the level of skill required to use a hero to their maximum potential.
      In other words, learning how to use the GS auto evades skillfully was necessary in order to reach the weapon's maximum potential. You're wrong here.
    1. Stop this bulls... pls. I already wasted more than enough time and wrote more than one wall of text explaining very well why you are wrong with a lot of things. I am too lazy because i already did it. It is all there, check it yourself. I even gave you a good summary here already. I did more than enough. It is your turn. Or just let it be i don't care.
    2. No it doesn't mean the weapon itself was balanced, 2 sec evade on an autoattackskill withotu any interrupt cd cost, i mean seriously how can you even defend that. Logic at it's best.
    3. I know the definition and i made a further distinction to it because needed in this case. Like the only part it add some more skill ceiling was the need of knowing about it. The moment you know about it it lowers the skill ceiling in the gameplay part itself. Simple.
    1. Then link it. :joy:
    2. "GS Ranger was not overperforming... also is not balanced." Okay way to contradict yourself. You can't say GS ranger isn't too strong but the weapon is.
    3. Well, thanks to me, now you know the definition of it. You clearly didn't know it before if you said that learning how to use the GS evades effectively does not increase the skill ceiling.

    Anyways maybe you don't make as much sense as I thought you did. Telling me to not run Chaos to prove that Mantras are too strong on their own was pretty illogical. Oh well.

    1. Again: im not going through 7 sides of the thread because you already forgot everything i wrote. It is not my responsibility. If you forgot then re-read it yourself.
    2. A build has a lot of different parts working together. There can be one Part overperforming during it get compensated by other Parts underperforming. Just like a build that is op is not op because of everyhting it uses, there are specific things make it op and you always should balance the root problem. Also there can be broken mechanics, they can result into op stuff or not but even when not they are unhealthy. 2 sec evade spam on an autoattack skill without any cost from an interrupt cd is such thing. A 2 sec evade was not intended and is not balance nor does it add any skill ceiling in the gameplay part. It is simple no cost evade spam every ape can do. Simple because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abuse makes it not overly problematic. Still it should get fixed.
    3. Where we are at Chaosline Mesmer again. Your Core build is overperforming only because of Chaosline in the first place (added by only Mantra of Pain as secondary carry mechanic and has nothing to do at all with any other Mantra). You can play only PU core without any Mantra (or at least only with Mantra of Pain) and the result would be the same. During a Mantra Mesmer/ Mirage without stealthspam for days and without broken passsive sustain from a defensive line is not any issue to counter and to get killed, except for the braindead Mantra of Pain spam what will not rly kill any of the high sustain bruiser builds by its own. Go find my comments where i explained very detailed why the clips with Vallun you were showing don't prove anything about the brustcombo being uncounterable. The 2 times Vallun died were because he played bad. Go back to my post where i explained why your screens don't prove anything. or where i explained how many counters Mantra of Distraction has during you claim it has not a single one or the post where i tell you how you need to analyze Mantras cds as a whole with the recharge included. Just rewatch all my posts i quoted you. You can click on your notification symbol in above right corner of this forum page to do that. Or watch the summary i gave you in this thread, i mentioned a lot here already.
    4. I now rly will stop to answer to you before i get too triggered and say something i need to feel sry for later.
    1. As I've stated previously, I do not believe you proved me wrong. If you say otherwise, then link me a single post where you believe this to be true.
      Your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      So again, it's illogical and incorrect of you to assume that it's my job to constantly disprove all of the claims you're flinging around.
    2. Sure but if the build as a whole isn't overperforming, then nerfing aspects of it will cause it to underperform. And as several other people have stated, the change is not a bug fix.
    3. The issue I have with mantras is it's ability to oneshot from stealth. The Mirage variant of mantras is not only more popular, but stronger and arguably more effective. Mur plays this version in the top 10. Mirage mantras is more mobile, has more cc, and way more survivability. The screenshots, clips, and raw gameplay footage I've posted are direct proof of my claims. Again, just because you say they don't, doesn't mean anything.
    4. Bye!
    1. Holy cow you don't get it, i already made all the effort to prove you wrong, if you forgot about that and even don't read the summary i gave several times in this thread it is your problem.
    2. As said in this case it was not overly problematic because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abused here. That always will get less of complains and will cause less big issues than if you could hit a skill doing 10k dmg twice instead of one time as intended. It will not kill GS Ranger just as it didn't make it insane broken.
    3. As said you can onehsot ppl completely without Mantras used. The only Mantra makes it even easier and has a SECONDARY relation to the oneshot out of stealth for days problematic is Mantra of Pain, no other Mantra, ONLY this one. The main issue from your build is Chaosline and no, a Powermirage (using Domination; Duelling or Illusion) doesn't have more sustain than that and the sustain a Mirage has is way more active than from Chaosline. A Powermirage even with double Mantra is nothing i fear no matter on what class (except some Necrobuilds), all their moves are counterable and predictable and it can be killed without problems. Choaline PU is a different story and that is mostly caused by Chaosline. But again, just re-read the Mesmer thread, it is all writen there and at some point you even made one comment that you agree with me, right after i left the thread. In the end you didn't rly agree... i guess you only didn't have any arguments left at that point and kind of surrendered to then come back later and use the same wrong arguments vs other ppl again. Waste of time dealing with you as said. I also don't just say somethign is wrong or right, i always explain very detailed. But you seems to forget anyway, who cares. Continue with your nonsense. This is a Ranger thread, i stop talking about Mesmer now here in general.
    4. Bye!
    1. Effort =/= results. You did not prove me wrong, just because you spent time and effort and say you did... doesn't mean you actually did. For the umpteenth time, link me a post where you believe this to be true and I'll reconsider.
    2. Sorry I think your logic is faulty again. A Mirage's ability to dodge while cc'd is a pure defensive mechanic that gets abused and it is frequently complained about. The same logic applies across the board. For example, Full Counter used to be on too low of a cooldown and present-day Holosmiths have too much sustain. People are vocal about overtuned defensive mechanics. However, I have never heard anyone complaining about GS autos until the upcoming balance patch's preview was released.
    3. I think Chaos is very strong but it's not the cause for Mantras being overpowered. They are both overtuned and deserving on nerfs.
      Again, your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      All of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    4. Bye!
    1. It is threre black on white, i also gave you enough examples as a summary (without re writing my whole argumentation because again: this is a Ranger not a Mesmer thread) just you being too lazy to re-read the thread after you forgot everything, it seems even your own post where you agree to me, doesn't make it unhappen lol. But nice try.
    2. Mirage ability to dodge while cced is intended mechanic and even baseline mechanic of the spec, what do you even compare here? Holo sustain as a whole is broken as hell in particular combined with the perma miniburst dmg, high cc uptime and good mobility. Ofc ppl complain more about that. No one ever said that the 3. skill of Ranger GS auto is comparable broken. Fullcounter has a high offensive component in addition to all the defense. Another comparison doesn't make sense. And in the end, how much the bunch of left in the game gold plebs complain about anything or not never was a good indicator of what is op or unhealthy mechanic or not. As said it doesn't make GS Ranger utterly broken but finally fixing it will also not kill the weapon. And fixing it is by logic the correct, although late move.
    3. Nope as said read the Mesmer thread again, there i explained and founded everything very detailed, i don't do it here again. I don't list all the counterplay to MoD and the difference to MoP and why MoD is not broken or op in any means and also not needed for the oneshot, and i don't re-write anything, i did already give a good summary, more then enough for you to be able to remember. I don't do the reasearch for you, it is not my responsibility to do it again. It is all writen and what do ppl do when they forgot about something? They read the book again they learnt it from. It is all there, i don't start that kitten from zero. So again nice try to contradict all the effort i did already in Mesmer thread in a Ranger channel with this nonsense request. Re-read my posts i quoted you or don't. Up to you, i already made my points and they all still stand.
    4. Bye again (yeah yeah nonsense always able to trigger me, sad life)
    1. The funny thing is if I was in your shoes I would just link a post to prove my point because it's easy. You haven't linked me any of them because you don't think you've actually proved me wrong.
    2. I never said that a Mirage's ability to dodge while cc'd wasn't an intended mechanic. Stop trying to twist my words. All I said was that it's a pure defensive mechanic that gets abused and frequently complained about. Again, the same applies to pre-nerf Full Counter and current Holosmith defense/sustain. You said people complain more about overtuned offensive mechanics compared to defensive ones. That's where I disagreed and provided examples of why I have that opinion.
    3. Again, all of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    4. Bye again!
    1. We had that same thing exactly in that Mesmer thread already and i requoted your posts and my posts and i have no intention to do it again and feed your lazyness. It is already there it is more or less the whole thread, like every post of mine which quote a post from you. I do not quote them again in this Ranger thread. It makes no sense to do it. You can just re-read like every single answer i made by quoting you. Every single one since Adam and Eva.
    2. I don't twist your words it simply doesn't make sense to compare that, the Mirage mechanic is intended the 2 secs dodge on Ranger autoattack never was. Aside from that Mirage dodge has a big offensive component as well. So no, you didn't prove me wrong because your arguments are wrong. Every of your examples has an offensive component and the difference to stuff like Holo or pre nerf Fullcounter is as mentioned that the extra evade on autoattack on GS never caused to turn GS Ranger any near into the monster lvl of Holo. So ofc ppl complain more about Holo than about one evade more Ranger should not have. And in general what ppl complain about or not isn't any indicator at all if something is op, unhealthy mechanic or not in the first place. So your whole argument that ppl never complained about GS auto until now is not an argument for your point that it never was an issue because ppl never complained before. This is just nonsense, it doesn't matter at all what ppl complained about and what not. I was aware of that issue but it wasn't that big of an issue make me come into forum and complain. But i am not like you though :joy:
    3. All my back up is in the Mesmer thread where it belongs. I don't copy the whole thread into the Ranger channel. That you are too lazy to re-read the Mesmer thread doesn't make all my points disappear, they all still stand. To give you 3 short examples (AGAIN) without re-writing the whole chain of facts and on locig and gameknowledge based arguments: you maybe remember me analzing your Vallun clips (other ppl said the same to you to other clips like the one with Helio on Keyba stream you linked) and proved your statement wrong that the oneshots shown there were not avoidable. I explained pretty well why Vallun just played bad and could have survived there. I remember you on my wall of text explanation about at least 10 counters to MoD and why only MoP is broken and why MoD needs to be instant as an interrupt tool and why it is no oneshot tool anymore during you denied that MoD even has a single counter. I remember you how i told you why only looking at tooltip cds in terms of Mantras is only half the truth. If you don't remember my whole chain of facts and arguments then re-read the kitten Mesmer thread. I don't say it again and i don't quote it into Ranger channel. We don't need everything 500 times in the forum. It is already there and every point i made in that thread still stands pretty solid until now. You even agreed to most of it rofl... so pls stop being that narrowed. No nonsense you try to do here will corrupt my points in particular not your lazyness to just re-read the Mesmer thread.
    4. Bye again again

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

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    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.
    1. I disagree. If you want me to admit otherwise, link me a single post where you believe you're correct so I can read it again.
    2. I'm not biased. I play every single class and I find mesmer is probably the one I have the most fun on. There are builds I'd like to see nerfed on ranger and I'd like to see several other classes (including mesmer) receive buffs. However, I have the ability recognize when something is too strong. I'm in Aerospace and Mech Engineering and my focus is heavily on design and innovation. I'm good at pinpointing which areas are the best to focus on and develop further/first, where the problem areas are, and how to approach and construct the project in a way that not only performs well, but sells well/is easy to market. I also compete(d) professionally in several other games (shooters, BRs, MOBAs, etc. etc.) I understand balance very well.
    3. If you prove me wrong, I'll admit to it. But just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." isn't a valid argument.

    1 As said it is all there if you feel better by not rewatching stuff when i already told you where to look than it is your lazyness and not my problem. We disagree about you being biased or not. Also fine for me.

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    7 years, 0 complains, even after it was buffed once for 10% increase damage and a second time for 80% additional damage. Yet, it’s OPed, but only after anet releases these future “balance” changes, clearly this is a placebo effect...

    1. I and probably a lot of other ppl were always fully aware of that issue and not a fanboy of it. That GS Ranger was not overperforming because of it as a whole doesn't change the fact that 2 secs evade on an autoattack skill without any interrupt cd costs never was intended and also is not balanced or add any skill ceiling.
    1. Don't call me lazy when you literally said, "Sry i am too lazy" when I asked you to link me a single post you think you proved me wrong in.
      Just saying, "You're biased." doesn't make me biased. It's an attempt to discredit me because you can't/refuse to prove me wrong.
    2. If it wasn't over/underperforming, that means that the weapon is balanced and should be left alone.
      Since you clearly don't know the definition of the term Skill Ceiling: A skill ceiling is the level of skill required to use a hero to their maximum potential.
      In other words, learning how to use the GS auto evades skillfully was necessary in order to reach the weapon's maximum potential. You're wrong here.
    1. Stop this bulls... pls. I already wasted more than enough time and wrote more than one wall of text explaining very well why you are wrong with a lot of things. I am too lazy because i already did it. It is all there, check it yourself. I even gave you a good summary here already. I did more than enough. It is your turn. Or just let it be i don't care.
    2. No it doesn't mean the weapon itself was balanced, 2 sec evade on an autoattackskill withotu any interrupt cd cost, i mean seriously how can you even defend that. Logic at it's best.
    3. I know the definition and i made a further distinction to it because needed in this case. Like the only part it add some more skill ceiling was the need of knowing about it. The moment you know about it it lowers the skill ceiling in the gameplay part itself. Simple.
    1. Then link it. :joy:
    2. "GS Ranger was not overperforming... also is not balanced." Okay way to contradict yourself. You can't say GS ranger isn't too strong but the weapon is.
    3. Well, thanks to me, now you know the definition of it. You clearly didn't know it before if you said that learning how to use the GS evades effectively does not increase the skill ceiling.

    Anyways maybe you don't make as much sense as I thought you did. Telling me to not run Chaos to prove that Mantras are too strong on their own was pretty illogical. Oh well.

    1. Again: im not going through 7 sides of the thread because you already forgot everything i wrote. It is not my responsibility. If you forgot then re-read it yourself.
    2. A build has a lot of different parts working together. There can be one Part overperforming during it get compensated by other Parts underperforming. Just like a build that is op is not op because of everyhting it uses, there are specific things make it op and you always should balance the root problem. Also there can be broken mechanics, they can result into op stuff or not but even when not they are unhealthy. 2 sec evade spam on an autoattack skill without any cost from an interrupt cd is such thing. A 2 sec evade was not intended and is not balance nor does it add any skill ceiling in the gameplay part. It is simple no cost evade spam every ape can do. Simple because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abuse makes it not overly problematic. Still it should get fixed.
    3. Where we are at Chaosline Mesmer again. Your Core build is overperforming only because of Chaosline in the first place (added by only Mantra of Pain as secondary carry mechanic and has nothing to do at all with any other Mantra). You can play only PU core without any Mantra (or at least only with Mantra of Pain) and the result would be the same. During a Mantra Mesmer/ Mirage without stealthspam for days and without broken passsive sustain from a defensive line is not any issue to counter and to get killed, except for the braindead Mantra of Pain spam what will not rly kill any of the high sustain bruiser builds by its own. Go find my comments where i explained very detailed why the clips with Vallun you were showing don't prove anything about the brustcombo being uncounterable. The 2 times Vallun died were because he played bad. Go back to my post where i explained why your screens don't prove anything. or where i explained how many counters Mantra of Distraction has during you claim it has not a single one or the post where i tell you how you need to analyze Mantras cds as a whole with the recharge included. Just rewatch all my posts i quoted you. You can click on your notification symbol in above right corner of this forum page to do that. Or watch the summary i gave you in this thread, i mentioned a lot here already.
    4. I now rly will stop to answer to you before i get too triggered and say something i need to feel sry for later.
    1. As I've stated previously, I do not believe you proved me wrong. If you say otherwise, then link me a single post where you believe this to be true.
      Your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      So again, it's illogical and incorrect of you to assume that it's my job to constantly disprove all of the claims you're flinging around.
    2. Sure but if the build as a whole isn't overperforming, then nerfing aspects of it will cause it to underperform. And as several other people have stated, the change is not a bug fix.
    3. The issue I have with mantras is it's ability to oneshot from stealth. The Mirage variant of mantras is not only more popular, but stronger and arguably more effective. Mur plays this version in the top 10. Mirage mantras is more mobile, has more cc, and way more survivability. The screenshots, clips, and raw gameplay footage I've posted are direct proof of my claims. Again, just because you say they don't, doesn't mean anything.
    4. Bye!
    1. Holy cow you don't get it, i already made all the effort to prove you wrong, if you forgot about that and even don't read the summary i gave several times in this thread it is your problem.
    2. As said in this case it was not overly problematic because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abused here. That always will get less of complains and will cause less big issues than if you could hit a skill doing 10k dmg twice instead of one time as intended. It will not kill GS Ranger just as it didn't make it insane broken.
    3. As said you can onehsot ppl completely without Mantras used. The only Mantra makes it even easier and has a SECONDARY relation to the oneshot out of stealth for days problematic is Mantra of Pain, no other Mantra, ONLY this one. The main issue from your build is Chaosline and no, a Powermirage (using Domination; Duelling or Illusion) doesn't have more sustain than that and the sustain a Mirage has is way more active than from Chaosline. A Powermirage even with double Mantra is nothing i fear no matter on what class (except some Necrobuilds), all their moves are counterable and predictable and it can be killed without problems. Choaline PU is a different story and that is mostly caused by Chaosline. But again, just re-read the Mesmer thread, it is all writen there and at some point you even made one comment that you agree with me, right after i left the thread. In the end you didn't rly agree... i guess you only didn't have any arguments left at that point and kind of surrendered to then come back later and use the same wrong arguments vs other ppl again. Waste of time dealing with you as said. I also don't just say somethign is wrong or right, i always explain very detailed. But you seems to forget anyway, who cares. Continue with your nonsense. This is a Ranger thread, i stop talking about Mesmer now here in general.
    4. Bye!
    1. Effort =/= results. You did not prove me wrong, just because you spent time and effort and say you did... doesn't mean you actually did. For the umpteenth time, link me a post where you believe this to be true and I'll reconsider.
    2. Sorry I think your logic is faulty again. A Mirage's ability to dodge while cc'd is a pure defensive mechanic that gets abused and it is frequently complained about. The same logic applies across the board. For example, Full Counter used to be on too low of a cooldown and present-day Holosmiths have too much sustain. People are vocal about overtuned defensive mechanics. However, I have never heard anyone complaining about GS autos until the upcoming balance patch's preview was released.
    3. I think Chaos is very strong but it's not the cause for Mantras being overpowered. They are both overtuned and deserving on nerfs.
      Again, your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      All of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    4. Bye!
    1. It is threre black on white, i also gave you enough examples as a summary (without re writing my whole argumentation because again: this is a Ranger not a Mesmer thread) just you being too lazy to re-read the thread after you forgot everything, it seems even your own post where you agree to me, doesn't make it unhappen lol. But nice try.
    2. Mirage ability to dodge while cced is intended mechanic and even baseline mechanic of the spec, what do you even compare here? Holo sustain as a whole is broken as hell in particular combined with the perma miniburst dmg, high cc uptime and good mobility. Ofc ppl complain more about that. No one ever said that the 3. skill of Ranger GS auto is comparable broken. Fullcounter has a high offensive component in addition to all the defense. Another comparison doesn't make sense. And in the end, how much the bunch of left in the game gold plebs complain about anything or not never was a good indicator of what is op or unhealthy mechanic or not. As said it doesn't make GS Ranger utterly broken but finally fixing it will also not kill the weapon. And fixing it is by logic the correct, although late move.
    3. Nope as said read the Mesmer thread again, there i explained and founded everything very detailed, i don't do it here again. I don't list all the counterplay to MoD and the difference to MoP and why MoD is not broken or op in any means and also not needed for the oneshot, and i don't re-write anything, i did already give a good summary, more then enough for you to be able to remember. I don't do the reasearch for you, it is not my responsibility to do it again. It is all writen and what do ppl do when they forgot about something? They read the book again they learnt it from. It is all there, i don't start that kitten from zero. So again nice try to contradict all the effort i did already in Mesmer thread in a Ranger channel with this nonsense request. Re-read my posts i quoted you or don't. Up to you, i already made my points and they all still stand.
    4. Bye again (yeah yeah nonsense always able to trigger me, sad life)
    1. The funny thing is if I was in your shoes I would just link a post to prove my point because it's easy. You haven't linked me any of them because you don't think you've actually proved me wrong.
    2. I never said that a Mirage's ability to dodge while cc'd wasn't an intended mechanic. Stop trying to twist my words. All I said was that it's a pure defensive mechanic that gets abused and frequently complained about. Again, the same applies to pre-nerf Full Counter and current Holosmith defense/sustain. You said people complain more about overtuned offensive mechanics compared to defensive ones. That's where I disagreed and provided examples of why I have that opinion.
    3. Again, all of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    4. Bye again!
    1. We had that same thing exactly in that Mesmer thread already and i requoted your posts and my posts and i have no intention to do it again and feed your lazyness. It is already there it is more or less the whole thread, like every post of mine which quote a post from you. I do not quote them again in this Ranger thread. It makes no sense to do it. You can just re-read like every single answer i made by quoting you. Every single one since Adam and Eva.
    2. I don't twist your words it simply doesn't make sense to compare that, the Mirage mechanic is intended the 2 secs dodge on Ranger autoattack never was. Aside from that Mirage dodge has a big offensive component as well. So no, you didn't prove me wrong because your arguments are wrong. Every of your examples has an offensive component and the difference to stuff like Holo or pre nerf Fullcounter is as mentioned that the extra evade on autoattack on GS never caused to turn GS Ranger any near into the monster lvl of Holo. So ofc ppl complain more about Holo than about one evade more Ranger should not have. And in general what ppl complain about or not isn't any indicator at all if something is op, unhealthy mechanic or not in the first place. So your whole argument that ppl never complained about GS auto until now is not an argument for your point that it never was an issue because ppl never complained before. This is just nonsense, it doesn't matter at all what ppl complained about and what not. I was aware of that issue but it wasn't that big of an issue make me come into forum and complain. But i am not like you though :joy:
    3. All my back up is in the Mesmer thread where it belongs. I don't copy the whole thread into the Ranger channel. That you are too lazy to re-read the Mesmer thread doesn't make all my points disappear, they all still stand. To give you 3 short examples (AGAIN) without re-writing the whole chain of facts and on locig and gameknowledge based arguments: you maybe remember me analzing your Vallun clips (other ppl said the same to you to other clips like the one with Helio on Keyba stream you linked) and prove your statement wrong that the oneshots shown there were not avoidable. I explained pretty well why Vallun just played bad and could have survived there. I remember you on my wall of text explanation about at least 10 counters to MoD and why only MoP is broken and why MoD need to be instant as an interrupt tool and why it is no oneshot tool anymore during you denied that MoD even has a single counter. I remember you how i told you why only looking at tooltip cds in terms of Mantras is only half the truth. If you don't remember my whole chain of facts and arguments then re-read the kitten Mesmer thread. I don't say it again and i don't quote it into Ranger channel. We don't need everything 500 times in the forum. It is already there and every point i made in that thread still stands pretty solid until now. You even agreed to most of it rofl... so pls stop being that narrowed. No nonsense you try to do here will corrupt my points in particular not your lazyness to just re-read the Mesmer thread.
    4. Bye again again
    1. You literally said, "Sry i am too lazy." when I told you to link me a post. Again, I'll say it for a third (fourth? fifth?) time...
      Your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      So, it's illogical and incorrect of you to assume that it's my job to constantly disprove all of the claims you're flinging around.
    2. You were twisting my words. And again, I'll say it for a third (fourth? fifth?) time...
      All of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    3. Again, I'll say it for a third (fourth? fifth?) time...
      You literally said, "Sry i am too lazy." when I told you to link me a post.
      I also posted raw footage of 10 games I played in a row on core mantra mesmer on EU. You can clearly see me rolling over people who aren't as skilled as Vallun (not that he's even that good to begin with). Funnily enough, he's actually rank 53 on EU even though he plays on NA. I'm always higher rated than him on NA and have much more comp experience than he does and a much wider range of classes. So I found it pretty silly when you mentioned my win ratio prior to playing mantra mesmer and the fact that I was rated 1500 even though I prefaced that in my original post where I stated that I dropped rating on purpose to show the build's effectiveness at a variety of skill ranges as I climb back up. I'm also winning 1vXs on the build against Plat 1 players so if that doesn't show you how big the skill difference is even though I'm on 6 times my normal ping, I don't know what will. Oh wait... I do! Let me just 1vX some plat 2 and 3 players as I climb up the ladder again. :)
    4. Bye again again!
  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

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    @bravan.3876 said:

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    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

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    @bravan.3876 said:

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    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.
    1. I disagree. If you want me to admit otherwise, link me a single post where you believe you're correct so I can read it again.
    2. I'm not biased. I play every single class and I find mesmer is probably the one I have the most fun on. There are builds I'd like to see nerfed on ranger and I'd like to see several other classes (including mesmer) receive buffs. However, I have the ability recognize when something is too strong. I'm in Aerospace and Mech Engineering and my focus is heavily on design and innovation. I'm good at pinpointing which areas are the best to focus on and develop further/first, where the problem areas are, and how to approach and construct the project in a way that not only performs well, but sells well/is easy to market. I also compete(d) professionally in several other games (shooters, BRs, MOBAs, etc. etc.) I understand balance very well.
    3. If you prove me wrong, I'll admit to it. But just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." isn't a valid argument.

    1 As said it is all there if you feel better by not rewatching stuff when i already told you where to look than it is your lazyness and not my problem. We disagree about you being biased or not. Also fine for me.

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    7 years, 0 complains, even after it was buffed once for 10% increase damage and a second time for 80% additional damage. Yet, it’s OPed, but only after anet releases these future “balance” changes, clearly this is a placebo effect...

    1. I and probably a lot of other ppl were always fully aware of that issue and not a fanboy of it. That GS Ranger was not overperforming because of it as a whole doesn't change the fact that 2 secs evade on an autoattack skill without any interrupt cd costs never was intended and also is not balanced or add any skill ceiling.
    1. Don't call me lazy when you literally said, "Sry i am too lazy" when I asked you to link me a single post you think you proved me wrong in.
      Just saying, "You're biased." doesn't make me biased. It's an attempt to discredit me because you can't/refuse to prove me wrong.
    2. If it wasn't over/underperforming, that means that the weapon is balanced and should be left alone.
      Since you clearly don't know the definition of the term Skill Ceiling: A skill ceiling is the level of skill required to use a hero to their maximum potential.
      In other words, learning how to use the GS auto evades skillfully was necessary in order to reach the weapon's maximum potential. You're wrong here.
    1. Stop this bulls... pls. I already wasted more than enough time and wrote more than one wall of text explaining very well why you are wrong with a lot of things. I am too lazy because i already did it. It is all there, check it yourself. I even gave you a good summary here already. I did more than enough. It is your turn. Or just let it be i don't care.
    2. No it doesn't mean the weapon itself was balanced, 2 sec evade on an autoattackskill withotu any interrupt cd cost, i mean seriously how can you even defend that. Logic at it's best.
    3. I know the definition and i made a further distinction to it because needed in this case. Like the only part it add some more skill ceiling was the need of knowing about it. The moment you know about it it lowers the skill ceiling in the gameplay part itself. Simple.
    1. Then link it. :joy:
    2. "GS Ranger was not overperforming... also is not balanced." Okay way to contradict yourself. You can't say GS ranger isn't too strong but the weapon is.
    3. Well, thanks to me, now you know the definition of it. You clearly didn't know it before if you said that learning how to use the GS evades effectively does not increase the skill ceiling.

    Anyways maybe you don't make as much sense as I thought you did. Telling me to not run Chaos to prove that Mantras are too strong on their own was pretty illogical. Oh well.

    1. Again: im not going through 7 sides of the thread because you already forgot everything i wrote. It is not my responsibility. If you forgot then re-read it yourself.
    2. A build has a lot of different parts working together. There can be one Part overperforming during it get compensated by other Parts underperforming. Just like a build that is op is not op because of everyhting it uses, there are specific things make it op and you always should balance the root problem. Also there can be broken mechanics, they can result into op stuff or not but even when not they are unhealthy. 2 sec evade spam on an autoattack skill without any cost from an interrupt cd is such thing. A 2 sec evade was not intended and is not balance nor does it add any skill ceiling in the gameplay part. It is simple no cost evade spam every ape can do. Simple because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abuse makes it not overly problematic. Still it should get fixed.
    3. Where we are at Chaosline Mesmer again. Your Core build is overperforming only because of Chaosline in the first place (added by only Mantra of Pain as secondary carry mechanic and has nothing to do at all with any other Mantra). You can play only PU core without any Mantra (or at least only with Mantra of Pain) and the result would be the same. During a Mantra Mesmer/ Mirage without stealthspam for days and without broken passsive sustain from a defensive line is not any issue to counter and to get killed, except for the braindead Mantra of Pain spam what will not rly kill any of the high sustain bruiser builds by its own. Go find my comments where i explained very detailed why the clips with Vallun you were showing don't prove anything about the brustcombo being uncounterable. The 2 times Vallun died were because he played bad. Go back to my post where i explained why your screens don't prove anything. or where i explained how many counters Mantra of Distraction has during you claim it has not a single one or the post where i tell you how you need to analyze Mantras cds as a whole with the recharge included. Just rewatch all my posts i quoted you. You can click on your notification symbol in above right corner of this forum page to do that. Or watch the summary i gave you in this thread, i mentioned a lot here already.
    4. I now rly will stop to answer to you before i get too triggered and say something i need to feel sry for later.
    1. As I've stated previously, I do not believe you proved me wrong. If you say otherwise, then link me a single post where you believe this to be true.
      Your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      So again, it's illogical and incorrect of you to assume that it's my job to constantly disprove all of the claims you're flinging around.
    2. Sure but if the build as a whole isn't overperforming, then nerfing aspects of it will cause it to underperform. And as several other people have stated, the change is not a bug fix.
    3. The issue I have with mantras is it's ability to oneshot from stealth. The Mirage variant of mantras is not only more popular, but stronger and arguably more effective. Mur plays this version in the top 10. Mirage mantras is more mobile, has more cc, and way more survivability. The screenshots, clips, and raw gameplay footage I've posted are direct proof of my claims. Again, just because you say they don't, doesn't mean anything.
    4. Bye!
    1. Holy cow you don't get it, i already made all the effort to prove you wrong, if you forgot about that and even don't read the summary i gave several times in this thread it is your problem.
    2. As said in this case it was not overly problematic because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abused here. That always will get less of complains and will cause less big issues than if you could hit a skill doing 10k dmg twice instead of one time as intended. It will not kill GS Ranger just as it didn't make it insane broken.
    3. As said you can onehsot ppl completely without Mantras used. The only Mantra makes it even easier and has a SECONDARY relation to the oneshot out of stealth for days problematic is Mantra of Pain, no other Mantra, ONLY this one. The main issue from your build is Chaosline and no, a Powermirage (using Domination; Duelling or Illusion) doesn't have more sustain than that and the sustain a Mirage has is way more active than from Chaosline. A Powermirage even with double Mantra is nothing i fear no matter on what class (except some Necrobuilds), all their moves are counterable and predictable and it can be killed without problems. Choaline PU is a different story and that is mostly caused by Chaosline. But again, just re-read the Mesmer thread, it is all writen there and at some point you even made one comment that you agree with me, right after i left the thread. In the end you didn't rly agree... i guess you only didn't have any arguments left at that point and kind of surrendered to then come back later and use the same wrong arguments vs other ppl again. Waste of time dealing with you as said. I also don't just say somethign is wrong or right, i always explain very detailed. But you seems to forget anyway, who cares. Continue with your nonsense. This is a Ranger thread, i stop talking about Mesmer now here in general.
    4. Bye!
    1. Effort =/= results. You did not prove me wrong, just because you spent time and effort and say you did... doesn't mean you actually did. For the umpteenth time, link me a post where you believe this to be true and I'll reconsider.
    2. Sorry I think your logic is faulty again. A Mirage's ability to dodge while cc'd is a pure defensive mechanic that gets abused and it is frequently complained about. The same logic applies across the board. For example, Full Counter used to be on too low of a cooldown and present-day Holosmiths have too much sustain. People are vocal about overtuned defensive mechanics. However, I have never heard anyone complaining about GS autos until the upcoming balance patch's preview was released.
    3. I think Chaos is very strong but it's not the cause for Mantras being overpowered. They are both overtuned and deserving on nerfs.
      Again, your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      All of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    4. Bye!
    1. It is threre black on white, i also gave you enough examples as a summary (without re writing my whole argumentation because again: this is a Ranger not a Mesmer thread) just you being too lazy to re-read the thread after you forgot everything, it seems even your own post where you agree to me, doesn't make it unhappen lol. But nice try.
    2. Mirage ability to dodge while cced is intended mechanic and even baseline mechanic of the spec, what do you even compare here? Holo sustain as a whole is broken as hell in particular combined with the perma miniburst dmg, high cc uptime and good mobility. Ofc ppl complain more about that. No one ever said that the 3. skill of Ranger GS auto is comparable broken. Fullcounter has a high offensive component in addition to all the defense. Another comparison doesn't make sense. And in the end, how much the bunch of left in the game gold plebs complain about anything or not never was a good indicator of what is op or unhealthy mechanic or not. As said it doesn't make GS Ranger utterly broken but finally fixing it will also not kill the weapon. And fixing it is by logic the correct, although late move.
    3. Nope as said read the Mesmer thread again, there i explained and founded everything very detailed, i don't do it here again. I don't list all the counterplay to MoD and the difference to MoP and why MoD is not broken or op in any means and also not needed for the oneshot, and i don't re-write anything, i did already give a good summary, more then enough for you to be able to remember. I don't do the reasearch for you, it is not my responsibility to do it again. It is all writen and what do ppl do when they forgot about something? They read the book again they learnt it from. It is all there, i don't start that kitten from zero. So again nice try to contradict all the effort i did already in Mesmer thread in a Ranger channel with this nonsense request. Re-read my posts i quoted you or don't. Up to you, i already made my points and they all still stand.
    4. Bye again (yeah yeah nonsense always able to trigger me, sad life)
    1. The funny thing is if I was in your shoes I would just link a post to prove my point because it's easy. You haven't linked me any of them because you don't think you've actually proved me wrong.
    2. I never said that a Mirage's ability to dodge while cc'd wasn't an intended mechanic. Stop trying to twist my words. All I said was that it's a pure defensive mechanic that gets abused and frequently complained about. Again, the same applies to pre-nerf Full Counter and current Holosmith defense/sustain. You said people complain more about overtuned offensive mechanics compared to defensive ones. That's where I disagreed and provided examples of why I have that opinion.
    3. Again, all of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    4. Bye again!
    1. We had that same thing exactly in that Mesmer thread already and i requoted your posts and my posts and i have no intention to do it again and feed your lazyness. It is already there it is more or less the whole thread, like every post of mine which quote a post from you. I do not quote them again in this Ranger thread. It makes no sense to do it. You can just re-read like every single answer i made by quoting you. Every single one since Adam and Eva.
    2. I don't twist your words it simply doesn't make sense to compare that, the Mirage mechanic is intended the 2 secs dodge on Ranger autoattack never was. Aside from that Mirage dodge has a big offensive component as well. So no, you didn't prove me wrong because your arguments are wrong. Every of your examples has an offensive component and the difference to stuff like Holo or pre nerf Fullcounter is as mentioned that the extra evade on autoattack on GS never caused to turn GS Ranger any near into the monster lvl of Holo. So ofc ppl complain more about Holo than about one evade more Ranger should not have. And in general what ppl complain about or not isn't any indicator at all if something is op, unhealthy mechanic or not in the first place. So your whole argument that ppl never complained about GS auto until now is not an argument for your point that it never was an issue because ppl never complained before. This is just nonsense, it doesn't matter at all what ppl complained about and what not. I was aware of that issue but it wasn't that big of an issue make me come into forum and complain. But i am not like you though :joy:
    3. All my back up is in the Mesmer thread where it belongs. I don't copy the whole thread into the Ranger channel. That you are too lazy to re-read the Mesmer thread doesn't make all my points disappear, they all still stand. To give you 3 short examples (AGAIN) without re-writing the whole chain of facts and on locig and gameknowledge based arguments: you maybe remember me analzing your Vallun clips (other ppl said the same to you to other clips like the one with Helio on Keyba stream you linked) and prove your statement wrong that the oneshots shown there were not avoidable. I explained pretty well why Vallun just played bad and could have survived there. I remember you on my wall of text explanation about at least 10 counters to MoD and why only MoP is broken and why MoD need to be instant as an interrupt tool and why it is no oneshot tool anymore during you denied that MoD even has a single counter. I remember you how i told you why only looking at tooltip cds in terms of Mantras is only half the truth. If you don't remember my whole chain of facts and arguments then re-read the kitten Mesmer thread. I don't say it again and i don't quote it into Ranger channel. We don't need everything 500 times in the forum. It is already there and every point i made in that thread still stands pretty solid until now. You even agreed to most of it rofl... so pls stop being that narrowed. No nonsense you try to do here will corrupt my points in particular not your lazyness to just re-read the Mesmer thread.
    4. Bye again again
    1. You literally said, "Sry i am too lazy." when I told you to link me a post. Again, I'll say it for a third (fourth? fifth?) time...
      Your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      So, it's illogical and incorrect of you to assume that it's my job to constantly disprove all of the claims you're flinging around.
    2. You were twisting my words. And again, I'll say it for a third (fourth? fifth?) time...
      All of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    3. Again, I'll say it for a third (fourth? fifth?) time...
      You literally said, "Sry i am too lazy." when I told you to link me a post.
      I also posted raw footage of 10 games I played in a row on core mantra mesmer on EU. You can clearly see me rolling over people who aren't as skilled as Vallun (not that he's even that good to begin with). Funnily enough, he's actually rank 53 on EU even though he plays on NA. I'm always higher rated than him on NA and have much more comp experience than he does and a much wider range of classes. So I found it pretty silly when you mentioned my win ratio prior to playing mantra mesmer and the fact that I was rated 1500 even though I prefaced that in my original post where I stated that I dropped rating on purpose to show the build's effectiveness at a variety of skill ranges as I climb back up. I'm also winning 1vXs on the build against Plat 1 players so if that doesn't show you how big the skill difference is even though I'm on 6 times my normal ping, I don't know what will. Oh wait... I do! Let me just 1vX some plat 2 and 3 players as I climb up the ladder again. :)
    4. Bye again again!

    I said i am too lazy because i already did it. I already proved you wrong in literally every answer to you i quote one of your posts, re-read them all, you don't even need to search just start with Adam and Eva on page one of the Mesmer thread (not page one, i actually joined the thread later, maybe page 3 or something). You also already asked me to re-quote your and my posts directly in the Mesmer thread and i did it back then. So why do it again, in particular into a Ranger thread where it doesn't belong? During you are just too lazy because you try to corrupt my points without the need of arguments because you have none. I mean are you rly that narrowed/ stupid? Or you try to trigger me? You compeltely avoid all my last arguments by just jumping back to a point before i explained why i don't wanna quote again (and i mean AGAIN). I even gave you 3 examples here more than once to make you remember but you just ignore them. This is so obviously just destructive behavior that i have no words anymore...

    Yes you now posted some other footage i can analyze step by step and dismantle every successful oneshot as simpel l2p issue on side of the low skilled opponents you face in low Plat games (haven't seen any higher ranked footage from you until now, also not in NA). In the first game already quite in the start i could tell you, that only ppl being totally bad and unaware and not reacting at all to your Mass Invis right in front of their ears and eyes make you able to oneshot these brain-afk bots and not the build you play, even though i agree to Chaosline and stealthspam with PU indeed being an issue, in particular on Coremes where you still have oneshot dmg with such insane sustain.

    As said you even agreed to me in the Mesmer thread (at least you said so, i guess it was because you were running out of arguments because i am just right), if you need all my back up in addition to the summary i already gave you here then re-read the Mesmer thread. I am tired of talking about Mesmer in a Ranger channel. And the whole discussion with you is so destructive and useless for everyone in this forum that i rly just stop at this point. Your lvl of narrowness and bias doesn't deserve any more attention. You didn't even say anything substantial in your last posts, it was just repeating contentfree protest to what i say. I am out of kindergarten, play with yourself, thanks.

    Final bye!

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

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    @shadowpass.4236 said:

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    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

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    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.
    1. I disagree. If you want me to admit otherwise, link me a single post where you believe you're correct so I can read it again.
    2. I'm not biased. I play every single class and I find mesmer is probably the one I have the most fun on. There are builds I'd like to see nerfed on ranger and I'd like to see several other classes (including mesmer) receive buffs. However, I have the ability recognize when something is too strong. I'm in Aerospace and Mech Engineering and my focus is heavily on design and innovation. I'm good at pinpointing which areas are the best to focus on and develop further/first, where the problem areas are, and how to approach and construct the project in a way that not only performs well, but sells well/is easy to market. I also compete(d) professionally in several other games (shooters, BRs, MOBAs, etc. etc.) I understand balance very well.
    3. If you prove me wrong, I'll admit to it. But just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." isn't a valid argument.

    1 As said it is all there if you feel better by not rewatching stuff when i already told you where to look than it is your lazyness and not my problem. We disagree about you being biased or not. Also fine for me.

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    7 years, 0 complains, even after it was buffed once for 10% increase damage and a second time for 80% additional damage. Yet, it’s OPed, but only after anet releases these future “balance” changes, clearly this is a placebo effect...

    1. I and probably a lot of other ppl were always fully aware of that issue and not a fanboy of it. That GS Ranger was not overperforming because of it as a whole doesn't change the fact that 2 secs evade on an autoattack skill without any interrupt cd costs never was intended and also is not balanced or add any skill ceiling.
    1. Don't call me lazy when you literally said, "Sry i am too lazy" when I asked you to link me a single post you think you proved me wrong in.
      Just saying, "You're biased." doesn't make me biased. It's an attempt to discredit me because you can't/refuse to prove me wrong.
    2. If it wasn't over/underperforming, that means that the weapon is balanced and should be left alone.
      Since you clearly don't know the definition of the term Skill Ceiling: A skill ceiling is the level of skill required to use a hero to their maximum potential.
      In other words, learning how to use the GS auto evades skillfully was necessary in order to reach the weapon's maximum potential. You're wrong here.
    1. Stop this bulls... pls. I already wasted more than enough time and wrote more than one wall of text explaining very well why you are wrong with a lot of things. I am too lazy because i already did it. It is all there, check it yourself. I even gave you a good summary here already. I did more than enough. It is your turn. Or just let it be i don't care.
    2. No it doesn't mean the weapon itself was balanced, 2 sec evade on an autoattackskill withotu any interrupt cd cost, i mean seriously how can you even defend that. Logic at it's best.
    3. I know the definition and i made a further distinction to it because needed in this case. Like the only part it add some more skill ceiling was the need of knowing about it. The moment you know about it it lowers the skill ceiling in the gameplay part itself. Simple.
    1. Then link it. :joy:
    2. "GS Ranger was not overperforming... also is not balanced." Okay way to contradict yourself. You can't say GS ranger isn't too strong but the weapon is.
    3. Well, thanks to me, now you know the definition of it. You clearly didn't know it before if you said that learning how to use the GS evades effectively does not increase the skill ceiling.

    Anyways maybe you don't make as much sense as I thought you did. Telling me to not run Chaos to prove that Mantras are too strong on their own was pretty illogical. Oh well.

    1. Again: im not going through 7 sides of the thread because you already forgot everything i wrote. It is not my responsibility. If you forgot then re-read it yourself.
    2. A build has a lot of different parts working together. There can be one Part overperforming during it get compensated by other Parts underperforming. Just like a build that is op is not op because of everyhting it uses, there are specific things make it op and you always should balance the root problem. Also there can be broken mechanics, they can result into op stuff or not but even when not they are unhealthy. 2 sec evade spam on an autoattack skill without any cost from an interrupt cd is such thing. A 2 sec evade was not intended and is not balance nor does it add any skill ceiling in the gameplay part. It is simple no cost evade spam every ape can do. Simple because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abuse makes it not overly problematic. Still it should get fixed.
    3. Where we are at Chaosline Mesmer again. Your Core build is overperforming only because of Chaosline in the first place (added by only Mantra of Pain as secondary carry mechanic and has nothing to do at all with any other Mantra). You can play only PU core without any Mantra (or at least only with Mantra of Pain) and the result would be the same. During a Mantra Mesmer/ Mirage without stealthspam for days and without broken passsive sustain from a defensive line is not any issue to counter and to get killed, except for the braindead Mantra of Pain spam what will not rly kill any of the high sustain bruiser builds by its own. Go find my comments where i explained very detailed why the clips with Vallun you were showing don't prove anything about the brustcombo being uncounterable. The 2 times Vallun died were because he played bad. Go back to my post where i explained why your screens don't prove anything. or where i explained how many counters Mantra of Distraction has during you claim it has not a single one or the post where i tell you how you need to analyze Mantras cds as a whole with the recharge included. Just rewatch all my posts i quoted you. You can click on your notification symbol in above right corner of this forum page to do that. Or watch the summary i gave you in this thread, i mentioned a lot here already.
    4. I now rly will stop to answer to you before i get too triggered and say something i need to feel sry for later.
    1. As I've stated previously, I do not believe you proved me wrong. If you say otherwise, then link me a single post where you believe this to be true.
      Your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      So again, it's illogical and incorrect of you to assume that it's my job to constantly disprove all of the claims you're flinging around.
    2. Sure but if the build as a whole isn't overperforming, then nerfing aspects of it will cause it to underperform. And as several other people have stated, the change is not a bug fix.
    3. The issue I have with mantras is it's ability to oneshot from stealth. The Mirage variant of mantras is not only more popular, but stronger and arguably more effective. Mur plays this version in the top 10. Mirage mantras is more mobile, has more cc, and way more survivability. The screenshots, clips, and raw gameplay footage I've posted are direct proof of my claims. Again, just because you say they don't, doesn't mean anything.
    4. Bye!
    1. Holy cow you don't get it, i already made all the effort to prove you wrong, if you forgot about that and even don't read the summary i gave several times in this thread it is your problem.
    2. As said in this case it was not overly problematic because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abused here. That always will get less of complains and will cause less big issues than if you could hit a skill doing 10k dmg twice instead of one time as intended. It will not kill GS Ranger just as it didn't make it insane broken.
    3. As said you can onehsot ppl completely without Mantras used. The only Mantra makes it even easier and has a SECONDARY relation to the oneshot out of stealth for days problematic is Mantra of Pain, no other Mantra, ONLY this one. The main issue from your build is Chaosline and no, a Powermirage (using Domination; Duelling or Illusion) doesn't have more sustain than that and the sustain a Mirage has is way more active than from Chaosline. A Powermirage even with double Mantra is nothing i fear no matter on what class (except some Necrobuilds), all their moves are counterable and predictable and it can be killed without problems. Choaline PU is a different story and that is mostly caused by Chaosline. But again, just re-read the Mesmer thread, it is all writen there and at some point you even made one comment that you agree with me, right after i left the thread. In the end you didn't rly agree... i guess you only didn't have any arguments left at that point and kind of surrendered to then come back later and use the same wrong arguments vs other ppl again. Waste of time dealing with you as said. I also don't just say somethign is wrong or right, i always explain very detailed. But you seems to forget anyway, who cares. Continue with your nonsense. This is a Ranger thread, i stop talking about Mesmer now here in general.
    4. Bye!
    1. Effort =/= results. You did not prove me wrong, just because you spent time and effort and say you did... doesn't mean you actually did. For the umpteenth time, link me a post where you believe this to be true and I'll reconsider.
    2. Sorry I think your logic is faulty again. A Mirage's ability to dodge while cc'd is a pure defensive mechanic that gets abused and it is frequently complained about. The same logic applies across the board. For example, Full Counter used to be on too low of a cooldown and present-day Holosmiths have too much sustain. People are vocal about overtuned defensive mechanics. However, I have never heard anyone complaining about GS autos until the upcoming balance patch's preview was released.
    3. I think Chaos is very strong but it's not the cause for Mantras being overpowered. They are both overtuned and deserving on nerfs.
      Again, your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      All of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    4. Bye!
    1. It is threre black on white, i also gave you enough examples as a summary (without re writing my whole argumentation because again: this is a Ranger not a Mesmer thread) just you being too lazy to re-read the thread after you forgot everything, it seems even your own post where you agree to me, doesn't make it unhappen lol. But nice try.
    2. Mirage ability to dodge while cced is intended mechanic and even baseline mechanic of the spec, what do you even compare here? Holo sustain as a whole is broken as hell in particular combined with the perma miniburst dmg, high cc uptime and good mobility. Ofc ppl complain more about that. No one ever said that the 3. skill of Ranger GS auto is comparable broken. Fullcounter has a high offensive component in addition to all the defense. Another comparison doesn't make sense. And in the end, how much the bunch of left in the game gold plebs complain about anything or not never was a good indicator of what is op or unhealthy mechanic or not. As said it doesn't make GS Ranger utterly broken but finally fixing it will also not kill the weapon. And fixing it is by logic the correct, although late move.
    3. Nope as said read the Mesmer thread again, there i explained and founded everything very detailed, i don't do it here again. I don't list all the counterplay to MoD and the difference to MoP and why MoD is not broken or op in any means and also not needed for the oneshot, and i don't re-write anything, i did already give a good summary, more then enough for you to be able to remember. I don't do the reasearch for you, it is not my responsibility to do it again. It is all writen and what do ppl do when they forgot about something? They read the book again they learnt it from. It is all there, i don't start that kitten from zero. So again nice try to contradict all the effort i did already in Mesmer thread in a Ranger channel with this nonsense request. Re-read my posts i quoted you or don't. Up to you, i already made my points and they all still stand.
    4. Bye again (yeah yeah nonsense always able to trigger me, sad life)
    1. The funny thing is if I was in your shoes I would just link a post to prove my point because it's easy. You haven't linked me any of them because you don't think you've actually proved me wrong.
    2. I never said that a Mirage's ability to dodge while cc'd wasn't an intended mechanic. Stop trying to twist my words. All I said was that it's a pure defensive mechanic that gets abused and frequently complained about. Again, the same applies to pre-nerf Full Counter and current Holosmith defense/sustain. You said people complain more about overtuned offensive mechanics compared to defensive ones. That's where I disagreed and provided examples of why I have that opinion.
    3. Again, all of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    4. Bye again!
    1. We had that same thing exactly in that Mesmer thread already and i requoted your posts and my posts and i have no intention to do it again and feed your lazyness. It is already there it is more or less the whole thread, like every post of mine which quote a post from you. I do not quote them again in this Ranger thread. It makes no sense to do it. You can just re-read like every single answer i made by quoting you. Every single one since Adam and Eva.
    2. I don't twist your words it simply doesn't make sense to compare that, the Mirage mechanic is intended the 2 secs dodge on Ranger autoattack never was. Aside from that Mirage dodge has a big offensive component as well. So no, you didn't prove me wrong because your arguments are wrong. Every of your examples has an offensive component and the difference to stuff like Holo or pre nerf Fullcounter is as mentioned that the extra evade on autoattack on GS never caused to turn GS Ranger any near into the monster lvl of Holo. So ofc ppl complain more about Holo than about one evade more Ranger should not have. And in general what ppl complain about or not isn't any indicator at all if something is op, unhealthy mechanic or not in the first place. So your whole argument that ppl never complained about GS auto until now is not an argument for your point that it never was an issue because ppl never complained before. This is just nonsense, it doesn't matter at all what ppl complained about and what not. I was aware of that issue but it wasn't that big of an issue make me come into forum and complain. But i am not like you though :joy:
    3. All my back up is in the Mesmer thread where it belongs. I don't copy the whole thread into the Ranger channel. That you are too lazy to re-read the Mesmer thread doesn't make all my points disappear, they all still stand. To give you 3 short examples (AGAIN) without re-writing the whole chain of facts and on locig and gameknowledge based arguments: you maybe remember me analzing your Vallun clips (other ppl said the same to you to other clips like the one with Helio on Keyba stream you linked) and prove your statement wrong that the oneshots shown there were not avoidable. I explained pretty well why Vallun just played bad and could have survived there. I remember you on my wall of text explanation about at least 10 counters to MoD and why only MoP is broken and why MoD need to be instant as an interrupt tool and why it is no oneshot tool anymore during you denied that MoD even has a single counter. I remember you how i told you why only looking at tooltip cds in terms of Mantras is only half the truth. If you don't remember my whole chain of facts and arguments then re-read the kitten Mesmer thread. I don't say it again and i don't quote it into Ranger channel. We don't need everything 500 times in the forum. It is already there and every point i made in that thread still stands pretty solid until now. You even agreed to most of it rofl... so pls stop being that narrowed. No nonsense you try to do here will corrupt my points in particular not your lazyness to just re-read the Mesmer thread.
    4. Bye again again
    1. You literally said, "Sry i am too lazy." when I told you to link me a post. Again, I'll say it for a third (fourth? fifth?) time...
      Your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      So, it's illogical and incorrect of you to assume that it's my job to constantly disprove all of the claims you're flinging around.
    2. You were twisting my words. And again, I'll say it for a third (fourth? fifth?) time...
      All of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    3. Again, I'll say it for a third (fourth? fifth?) time...
      You literally said, "Sry i am too lazy." when I told you to link me a post.
      I also posted raw footage of 10 games I played in a row on core mantra mesmer on EU. You can clearly see me rolling over people who aren't as skilled as Vallun (not that he's even that good to begin with). Funnily enough, he's actually rank 53 on EU even though he plays on NA. I'm always higher rated than him on NA and have much more comp experience than he does and a much wider range of classes. So I found it pretty silly when you mentioned my win ratio prior to playing mantra mesmer and the fact that I was rated 1500 even though I prefaced that in my original post where I stated that I dropped rating on purpose to show the build's effectiveness at a variety of skill ranges as I climb back up. I'm also winning 1vXs on the build against Plat 1 players so if that doesn't show you how big the skill difference is even though I'm on 6 times my normal ping, I don't know what will. Oh wait... I do! Let me just 1vX some plat 2 and 3 players as I climb up the ladder again. :)
    4. Bye again again!
    1. I said i am too lazy because i already did it. I already proved you wrong in literally every answer to you i quote one of your posts, re-read them all, you don't even need to search just start with Adam and Eva on page one of the Mesmer thread (not page one, i actually joined the thread later, maybe page 3 or something). You also already asked me to re-quote your and my posts directly in the Mesmer thread and i did it back then. So why do it again, in particular into a Ranger thread where it doesn't belong? During you are just too lazy because you try to corrupt my points without the need of arguments because you have none. I mean are you rly that narrowed/ stupid? Or you try to trigger me? You compeltely avoid all my last arguments by just jumping back to a point before i explained why i don't wanna quote again (and i mean AGAIN). I even gave you 3 examples here more than once to make you remember but you just ignore them. This is so obviously just destructive behavior that i have no words anymore...

    2. Yes you now posted some other footage i can analyze step by step and dismantle every successful oneshot as simpel l2p issue on side of the low skilled opponents you face in low Plat games (haven't seen any higher ranked footage from you until now, also not in NA). In the first game already quite in the start i could tell you, that only ppl being totally bad and unaware and not reacting at all to your Mass Invis right in front of their ears and eyes make you able to oneshot these brain-afk bots and not the build you play, even though i agree to Chaosline and stealthspam with PU indeed being an issue, in particular on Coremes where you still have oneshot dmg with such insane sustain.

    3. As said you even agreed to me in the Mesmer thread (at least you said so, i guess it was because you were running out of arguments because i am just right), if you need all my back up in addition to the summary i already gave you here then re-read the Mesmer thread. I am tired of talking about Mesmer in a Ranger channel. And the whole discussion with you is so destructive and useless for everyone in this forum that i rly just stop at this point. Your lvl of narrowness and bias doesn't deserve any more attention. You didn't even say anything substantial in your last posts, it was just repeating contentfree protest to what i say. I am out of kindergarten, play with yourself, thanks.

    Final bye!

    1. Again, I'll say these for the fourth (fifth? sixth?) times...
    • Your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      So, it's illogical and incorrect of you to assume that it's my job to constantly disprove all of the claims you're flinging around.
      and

    • All of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
      and

    • You literally said, "Sry i am too lazy." when I told you to link me a post.

    • Once you actually attempt to provide some substance to any of your arguments, I will be perfectly willing to debate them with you. However, continuing to repeat "I'm right, you're wrong." will continue to illicit the same responses from me until you realize that your way of arguing just results in fingerpointing and non-constructive discussions.
    1. Go for it. I wonder what excuses you'll come up with next when I'm farming EU in the top 30 (again! lol).
    2. See #1
    3. Final bye!
  • I don’t think you guys are finished disagreeing with one another...

  • @aymnad.9023 said:
    The question and the reasoning behind this change is probably this :
    Since we give rangers new defense tools (on block + evade) where do we cut some defense?
    What do you guys think is a decent way to nerf greatsword and keep the auto evade?
    Reducing the block time to 2s? 1.5s? Or something else?
    Edit : I also think the 15 endurance is too small. Maybe add an other effect to make it worth depending on the endurance level?

    If they are going to take the evade, how about a 15% damage increase to the damage output. The GS never hit hard to begin with, it was a defensive weapon with only one actual attack that mattered, everything else was utility and defensive in nature. The LEAST they can do is make every single hit in the chain hurt if they remove the evade.

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    You what IS a kitten bug? The entire mirage profession.

    Dodge while cc'd? Sounds like a kitten bug to me. How about you remove that Anet?

    [email protected]

    Way to dumb down the game.

    Instead of throwing a tantrum like a five year old. Make a constructive complaint and send it to ArenaNet if you don't agree with their decisions.

    They have made many questionable decisions in the past year. From buffing Holo to nerfing core guard and druid. Leaving mirage cloak unchecked, and Mercy signet in the game.

    I understand you don't want your main class nerfed, I understand how that feels.
    But at the end of the day, this wasn't intended behavior and should never have existed in the first place.

    And ranger GS is already very strong without it, having gap closer, evade, block, hard cc and burst all in the same weapon is a boon very few classes has access to.
    Many classes have seen nerfs this patch, so it's only fair that ranger gets theirs

    Are you kidding me? Ranger gets nerfed constantly compared to most classes.

  • these changes are sad day for the ranger ,

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Runiir.6425 said:

    @aymnad.9023 said:
    The question and the reasoning behind this change is probably this :
    Since we give rangers new defense tools (on block + evade) where do we cut some defense?
    What do you guys think is a decent way to nerf greatsword and keep the auto evade?
    Reducing the block time to 2s? 1.5s? Or something else?
    Edit : I also think the 15 endurance is too small. Maybe add an other effect to make it worth depending on the endurance level?

    If they are going to take the evade, how about a 15% damage increase to the damage output. The GS never hit hard to begin with, it was a defensive weapon with only one actual attack that mattered, everything else was utility and defensive in nature. The LEAST they can do is make every single hit in the chain hurt if they remove the evade.

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    You what IS a kitten bug? The entire mirage profession.

    Dodge while cc'd? Sounds like a kitten bug to me. How about you remove that Anet?

    [email protected]

    Way to dumb down the game.

    Instead of throwing a tantrum like a five year old. Make a constructive complaint and send it to ArenaNet if you don't agree with their decisions.

    They have made many questionable decisions in the past year. From buffing Holo to nerfing core guard and druid. Leaving mirage cloak unchecked, and Mercy signet in the game.

    I understand you don't want your main class nerfed, I understand how that feels.
    But at the end of the day, this wasn't intended behavior and should never have existed in the first place.

    And ranger GS is already very strong without it, having gap closer, evade, block, hard cc and burst all in the same weapon is a boon very few classes has access to.
    Many classes have seen nerfs this patch, so it's only fair that ranger gets theirs

    Are you kidding me? Ranger gets nerfed constantly compared to most classes.

    Wanna take a look at the core guard nerfs the past year?

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eurantien.4632 said:
    No one, HAS EVER, thought greatsword auto evade was too good until these patch notes dropped.

    This. It is pretty funny to watch.

  • Ferus.3165Ferus.3165 Member ✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    That being said, I would've liked it if they kept the evade. Just don't make it repeatable, if you cancel the attack it should flip over.

    this would have been the perfect fix... no more exploiting by auto canceling but still keeping the weapon intact as it was originally planned.

  • Ferus.3165Ferus.3165 Member ✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    You know, I saw you as pretty reasonable at the start so try not to break that image going forward. I only disagree with a few people because their opinions never budge and they never admit when they're wrong (even if they're blantantly incorrect). If I get proven wrong, I admit my mistakes. Also, I get frustrated sometimes but for the most part I'm pretty reasonable. The forums are just a mess though. If you're able to have a constructive conversation, please go that route instead of poking and prodding.

    1. Yes, I understood what Apharma was doing but I already detailed why he still made no sense in this post. Either way, you should watch my mantra mesmer games when I upload them to youtube today. I'm going to be climbing from 1500 rating to top 30 on EU on saturdays/early sundays when I have time to play and uploading all of the games (in order to show that it works at a variety of skill ranges).
    • Second, no one has yet to prove me wrong in my mantra thread. In fact, most of the time people explain in detail exactly how they're misplaying. Then I'm like...
      "No wonder you think these builds are bad. You're literally channeling mantras in front of people with interrupts ready and scratching your head when you can't get the cast off. Not to mention you're not even attempting to blind/cc/prevent them from interrupting you."

    • It's stupid because people say that these builds don't work against high level players and the reason I want the build nerfed is because it can insta-gib high level players even if they have fantastic awareness and reaction time. It's also been at the top of the leaderboards consistently and very strong in 1v1 tournies so there's more than enough proof to contradict the opposing arguments. You can't just say, "It doesn't work!" without proving that it doesn't work. I've provided videos, screenshots, history, and full game matches (soon). These matches will just be raw footage (wins AND losses) and my live commentary.

    1. Sorry you just don't understand how badly it feels to get a mechanic that is a core part of the playstyle completely removed from the game 7 years in. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there are several high tier ranger mains and people I've known from when I ran an 250+ member all ranger guild that are actually extraordinarily upset about it. One girl was almost in tears when I was talking to her on discord because of how frustrated she was. You can't just mess with people like that for seemingly no reason other than an incorrect, "It's random."

    2. The greatsword evade trick was only really used at a plat 2-3+ level consistently. At higher ratings, people know how to counter it and not spam into the evades. There has never been an issue with "infinitely evading gs rangers" plaguing the top end so all this change is doing is making ranger mains so upset they're quitting and lowering the skill ceiling even though this class is relatively in a good spot asides from a few outliers (which aren't even that bad). If they don't revert this change, I will probably stop playing entirely once AAU comes out on the 15th. I've been burnt out with this game for about 5 years now but I play because of my friends. If they leave (which the majority of comp players are ARKing to AAU and now my ranger friends are leaving as well) I'm flat out done. Anet is butchering my favorite weapon that I've been playing since release.

    3. Do me a favor and try to only use the greatsword evade trick in a team fight and try to stay on node with just that ability for as long as you can in an outnumbered fight. Do not use any other skills unless you are forced to pull out. Run a standard longbow/gs marauder soulbeast because bunker boonbeast does not use gs. The evade can potentially go up to 2.99s every 1s on paper but in actuality it's a lot less consistent than you would assume. Also, upload the footage so we can see how you use it instead of just taking your word for it.

    • A 2-3s evade every 1s sounds super good on paper but I can guarantee you'll get forced off the node within seconds by the damage/CC you eat during the non-evade frames. The evade on the auto is necessary for gs rangers to have any staying power on node, both in 1v1/Xs to team fights.
    1. I proved you wrong in several parts of your Mesmer thread though and you even agreed to most parts then (at least that was what you were writing as answer to me, not the way you finally act). A lot of your argumentations don't make sense and are exaggerations from tooltips and wrong "facts", i just gave you one example with the Mantra cd. As said i agree with you over chaosline PU/ Mass Invis and Mantra of Pain, i highly disagree with everything else and i explained pretty well why i think. I analyzed your clips as mostly bad plays from the one got oneshotted, i told you why screenshots and rating don't prove anything about builds and i told you why Mantra of Distraction is quite the opposite from braindead and broken and is not even needed for a oneshot build. I also explained why a oneshot build without Chaosline/ Mass invis might not be hard to play but sure is counterable and you can avoid to be oneshotted fairly easy then. Your thread still is named delete Mantras instead delete Chaosline and just one Mantra. But whatever this is a Ranger thread.

    2. I understand absolutely that it is frustrating to finally get the mechanic removed and that you think it is part of skill ceiling because you have to know/ to find out about it and having the knowledge (not the usage itself because there is nothing hard to use in that) or not is one difference between an experienced and informed Ranger and a Noobranger. I would not mind to have the mechanic in the game to cancel evade skills for a very short evade frame need to be times pretty well for the costs of an 4 secs interrupt cd. But sadly it is not how Ranger autoattack works atm and 2 secs evade spam for almost free is just too much of an advantage and don't add skill ceiling in the gameplay only in terms of knowing about it or not (in terms of gameplay it even lowers the skill ceiling the way it is atm).

    Just don't attack into that is not an argument because you could say that to every build can evade for days. And i think you would not have argued like that back in the days when Mirage could chain evades with adventure rune, double energy (ever though all classes can use these, for Mirage it just was the most rewarding to use), old duelling vigor trait and old vigor Mirage trait, 2,5 secs evade frame on Blurred, 1 sec Mirage dodge duration etc. For Ranger it was a fix coming late that is true and for that frustrating but late is better than never and fixing it is kind of fair. Sadly we can't just add an interrupt cd to it.

    1. You can link me any specific comments you'd like me to read again. I didn't exaggerate anything. The cooldowns were exactly what they are in-game.
      Here. I recorded 10 games in a row, etc. etc. read the thread. It covers all(?) of the potential concerns you might have. These are on EU btw, 6x my normal ping.
    2. That's why I told you to try it out in-game and record it. If you're able to sit on node ONLY auto attacking in a 1v1/X scenario then yeah, it's busted. But it doesn't work like that even with utilities and everything in the mix.
    3. That's not what I'm saying. You can literally out-range the autos so they don't hit or interrupt either of the first two attacks. There are other methods as well but I'm not going to list them all.
    1. Just check every of your comments i quoted in my answer. And one example i already gave here. On paper the pure cd on tooltip is 10 secs, the reality is, that you have a 2,25 sec recharge in addition (what is way more than the usual under 1 sec cast or even channelskills which already recharging during they are still running for an in fact lower cd then in the tooltip) and the recharge is not a passive cd it is an active cast can be interrupted so the Fb or Mesmer has to invest other cds or need to disengage and time the recharge to good moment (means even more cds before you can start recharging). These are additional cd costs, and these are the reasons for the kinda low cds writen on tooltip and that is justified. Some stuff where you changed argumentations also happened after i stopped writing in that thread (like when you finally admit that you had to outplay Vallun heavily to not die fast, even with chaosline carry. Sry i am too lazy and too busy to search all your comments where you even counter your own arguments depending on how you need it that moment. Unlogic also your claim that EU ppl are just too bad to play a build you call very easy to play. Unlogic also that you can find wall of text arguments on how to counter Condithief when it clearly is at least as hard to counter as a chaosline oneshot Mesmer spamming stealth for days.

    2. It is about the 2 sec evade spam for no costs what is not balanced, doesn't add skill ceiling (even lower it). It doesn't matter that the Ranger still cannot facetank on point forever with that or that ppl can avoid a hit from autoattacks. 2 secs evade was clearly not intended and is not balanced. If it wouldn't prevent all autoattacks for 4 secs i would say just add an interrupt cd (and lower evade frame to 0,1 secs when canceled) and make it restart the chain when 3. skill doesn't hit anything but these costs would be too high to make it worth canceling then. I get the frusttration because we were allowed to use it for 7 years but in the end it is a right move to fix it. We can argue about the way they fixed it (just restart chain like Tyga suggested would be better i think).

    1. Sorry I'm not going to comb through the 7 pages in that thread. If you have any specific examples, feel free to link them. The cooldown for the skill is 10 seconds, everyone knows there is a 2.25 channel time and a 1s cooldown between charge uses. So, what would you like people to say? That Mantra of Recovery has a 14.25s cooldown? Like... that's so redundant. The fact that you and a few other people were bringing that up as if it were a valid defense just looks like you're reaching for an argument.
    2. Greatsword ranger can barely stand on point against any of the current meta classes. Further reducing that ability will lower our viability dramatically. I disagree with your statement that "fixing it" is the right move.
    1. But you expect me to go through 7 pages even tho i argued with you about that already in the thread and you only need to rewatch my quotes from your comments? Yeah no. I also even gave you more than one example here already. Only saying Healmantra has 10 secs cd is exxaggerating just the way to say Ranger 3. autoattack chain skill has no cd (on tooltip is has no cd so yeah right). On paper both is correct, in fact both is wrong. The reason why Mantra recharge cds are lower are based in the recharge mechanic what is the base mechanic from Mantras, you need to count them into your arguemnts to make it realistic and not just exxaggerating to make stuff look op by exaggerating tooltips, that is Jawgeous ranting lvl and nothing i can take serious.
    2. As said that has nothing to do with a 2 secs evade for no costs is unintended and doesn't add any higher skill ceiling and is not balanced.
    1. If you want me to read it, then link me the comments you want me to look at. Otherwise, drop the topic. I disagree with your statements so prove me wrong.
    2. I disagree.
    1. Lol already wrote more than one wall of text to prove you wrong by using logic, facts and based on game knowledge arguments trying to be as unbiased as possible as a multiplayer even agree to some of your points. I don't need to do it again, it is all there already black on white so to say. I have done everything i needed to do. I don't restart. You can check it or let it be, i don't care in the end.
    2. Fine for me, as said i my view you are extremely biased, immune to every good argument and even facts and proves. I am not surprised it is the same when we talk about Ranger than it was with Mesmer just the other direction. Conclusion once again: Waste of time trying to have a constructive discussion with you and just stop answering to you. I even agree to parts of your arguments but you never rly agree to anything i say. I mean one time you said you do but then just restarted with the same wrong arguments vs other ppl, so yeah that was kind of worthless to say you agree in anything with me. In fact you don't agree in a single point, that is at least how you act.
    1. I disagree. If you want me to admit otherwise, link me a single post where you believe you're correct so I can read it again.
    2. I'm not biased. I play every single class and I find mesmer is probably the one I have the most fun on. There are builds I'd like to see nerfed on ranger and I'd like to see several other classes (including mesmer) receive buffs. However, I have the ability recognize when something is too strong. I'm in Aerospace and Mech Engineering and my focus is heavily on design and innovation. I'm good at pinpointing which areas are the best to focus on and develop further/first, where the problem areas are, and how to approach and construct the project in a way that not only performs well, but sells well/is easy to market. I also compete(d) professionally in several other games (shooters, BRs, MOBAs, etc. etc.) I understand balance very well.
    3. If you prove me wrong, I'll admit to it. But just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." isn't a valid argument.

    1 As said it is all there if you feel better by not rewatching stuff when i already told you where to look than it is your lazyness and not my problem. We disagree about you being biased or not. Also fine for me.

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    7 years, 0 complains, even after it was buffed once for 10% increase damage and a second time for 80% additional damage. Yet, it’s OPed, but only after anet releases these future “balance” changes, clearly this is a placebo effect...

    1. I and probably a lot of other ppl were always fully aware of that issue and not a fanboy of it. That GS Ranger was not overperforming because of it as a whole doesn't change the fact that 2 secs evade on an autoattack skill without any interrupt cd costs never was intended and also is not balanced or add any skill ceiling.
    1. Don't call me lazy when you literally said, "Sry i am too lazy" when I asked you to link me a single post you think you proved me wrong in.
      Just saying, "You're biased." doesn't make me biased. It's an attempt to discredit me because you can't/refuse to prove me wrong.
    2. If it wasn't over/underperforming, that means that the weapon is balanced and should be left alone.
      Since you clearly don't know the definition of the term Skill Ceiling: A skill ceiling is the level of skill required to use a hero to their maximum potential.
      In other words, learning how to use the GS auto evades skillfully was necessary in order to reach the weapon's maximum potential. You're wrong here.
    1. Stop this bulls... pls. I already wasted more than enough time and wrote more than one wall of text explaining very well why you are wrong with a lot of things. I am too lazy because i already did it. It is all there, check it yourself. I even gave you a good summary here already. I did more than enough. It is your turn. Or just let it be i don't care.
    2. No it doesn't mean the weapon itself was balanced, 2 sec evade on an autoattackskill withotu any interrupt cd cost, i mean seriously how can you even defend that. Logic at it's best.
    3. I know the definition and i made a further distinction to it because needed in this case. Like the only part it add some more skill ceiling was the need of knowing about it. The moment you know about it it lowers the skill ceiling in the gameplay part itself. Simple.
    1. Then link it. :joy:
    2. "GS Ranger was not overperforming... also is not balanced." Okay way to contradict yourself. You can't say GS ranger isn't too strong but the weapon is.
    3. Well, thanks to me, now you know the definition of it. You clearly didn't know it before if you said that learning how to use the GS evades effectively does not increase the skill ceiling.

    Anyways maybe you don't make as much sense as I thought you did. Telling me to not run Chaos to prove that Mantras are too strong on their own was pretty illogical. Oh well.

    1. Again: im not going through 7 sides of the thread because you already forgot everything i wrote. It is not my responsibility. If you forgot then re-read it yourself.
    2. A build has a lot of different parts working together. There can be one Part overperforming during it get compensated by other Parts underperforming. Just like a build that is op is not op because of everyhting it uses, there are specific things make it op and you always should balance the root problem. Also there can be broken mechanics, they can result into op stuff or not but even when not they are unhealthy. 2 sec evade spam on an autoattack skill without any cost from an interrupt cd is such thing. A 2 sec evade was not intended and is not balance nor does it add any skill ceiling in the gameplay part. It is simple no cost evade spam every ape can do. Simple because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abuse makes it not overly problematic. Still it should get fixed.
    3. Where we are at Chaosline Mesmer again. Your Core build is overperforming only because of Chaosline in the first place (added by only Mantra of Pain as secondary carry mechanic and has nothing to do at all with any other Mantra). You can play only PU core without any Mantra (or at least only with Mantra of Pain) and the result would be the same. During a Mantra Mesmer/ Mirage without stealthspam for days and without broken passsive sustain from a defensive line is not any issue to counter and to get killed, except for the braindead Mantra of Pain spam what will not rly kill any of the high sustain bruiser builds by its own. Go find my comments where i explained very detailed why the clips with Vallun you were showing don't prove anything about the brustcombo being uncounterable. The 2 times Vallun died were because he played bad. Go back to my post where i explained why your screens don't prove anything. or where i explained how many counters Mantra of Distraction has during you claim it has not a single one or the post where i tell you how you need to analyze Mantras cds as a whole with the recharge included. Just rewatch all my posts i quoted you. You can click on your notification symbol in above right corner of this forum page to do that. Or watch the summary i gave you in this thread, i mentioned a lot here already.
    4. I now rly will stop to answer to you before i get too triggered and say something i need to feel sry for later.
    1. As I've stated previously, I do not believe you proved me wrong. If you say otherwise, then link me a single post where you believe this to be true.
      Your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      So again, it's illogical and incorrect of you to assume that it's my job to constantly disprove all of the claims you're flinging around.
    2. Sure but if the build as a whole isn't overperforming, then nerfing aspects of it will cause it to underperform. And as several other people have stated, the change is not a bug fix.
    3. The issue I have with mantras is it's ability to oneshot from stealth. The Mirage variant of mantras is not only more popular, but stronger and arguably more effective. Mur plays this version in the top 10. Mirage mantras is more mobile, has more cc, and way more survivability. The screenshots, clips, and raw gameplay footage I've posted are direct proof of my claims. Again, just because you say they don't, doesn't mean anything.
    4. Bye!
    1. Holy cow you don't get it, i already made all the effort to prove you wrong, if you forgot about that and even don't read the summary i gave several times in this thread it is your problem.
    2. As said in this case it was not overly problematic because it is a pure defensive mechanic get abused here. That always will get less of complains and will cause less big issues than if you could hit a skill doing 10k dmg twice instead of one time as intended. It will not kill GS Ranger just as it didn't make it insane broken.
    3. As said you can onehsot ppl completely without Mantras used. The only Mantra makes it even easier and has a SECONDARY relation to the oneshot out of stealth for days problematic is Mantra of Pain, no other Mantra, ONLY this one. The main issue from your build is Chaosline and no, a Powermirage (using Domination; Duelling or Illusion) doesn't have more sustain than that and the sustain a Mirage has is way more active than from Chaosline. A Powermirage even with double Mantra is nothing i fear no matter on what class (except some Necrobuilds), all their moves are counterable and predictable and it can be killed without problems. Choaline PU is a different story and that is mostly caused by Chaosline. But again, just re-read the Mesmer thread, it is all writen there and at some point you even made one comment that you agree with me, right after i left the thread. In the end you didn't rly agree... i guess you only didn't have any arguments left at that point and kind of surrendered to then come back later and use the same wrong arguments vs other ppl again. Waste of time dealing with you as said. I also don't just say somethign is wrong or right, i always explain very detailed. But you seems to forget anyway, who cares. Continue with your nonsense. This is a Ranger thread, i stop talking about Mesmer now here in general.
    4. Bye!
    1. Effort =/= results. You did not prove me wrong, just because you spent time and effort and say you did... doesn't mean you actually did. For the umpteenth time, link me a post where you believe this to be true and I'll reconsider.
    2. Sorry I think your logic is faulty again. A Mirage's ability to dodge while cc'd is a pure defensive mechanic that gets abused and it is frequently complained about. The same logic applies across the board. For example, Full Counter used to be on too low of a cooldown and present-day Holosmiths have too much sustain. People are vocal about overtuned defensive mechanics. However, I have never heard anyone complaining about GS autos until the upcoming balance patch's preview was released.
    3. I think Chaos is very strong but it's not the cause for Mantras being overpowered. They are both overtuned and deserving on nerfs.
      Again, your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      All of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    4. Bye!
    1. It is threre black on white, i also gave you enough examples as a summary (without re writing my whole argumentation because again: this is a Ranger not a Mesmer thread) just you being too lazy to re-read the thread after you forgot everything, it seems even your own post where you agree to me, doesn't make it unhappen lol. But nice try.
    2. Mirage ability to dodge while cced is intended mechanic and even baseline mechanic of the spec, what do you even compare here? Holo sustain as a whole is broken as hell in particular combined with the perma miniburst dmg, high cc uptime and good mobility. Ofc ppl complain more about that. No one ever said that the 3. skill of Ranger GS auto is comparable broken. Fullcounter has a high offensive component in addition to all the defense. Another comparison doesn't make sense. And in the end, how much the bunch of left in the game gold plebs complain about anything or not never was a good indicator of what is op or unhealthy mechanic or not. As said it doesn't make GS Ranger utterly broken but finally fixing it will also not kill the weapon. And fixing it is by logic the correct, although late move.
    3. Nope as said read the Mesmer thread again, there i explained and founded everything very detailed, i don't do it here again. I don't list all the counterplay to MoD and the difference to MoP and why MoD is not broken or op in any means and also not needed for the oneshot, and i don't re-write anything, i did already give a good summary, more then enough for you to be able to remember. I don't do the reasearch for you, it is not my responsibility to do it again. It is all writen and what do ppl do when they forgot about something? They read the book again they learnt it from. It is all there, i don't start that kitten from zero. So again nice try to contradict all the effort i did already in Mesmer thread in a Ranger channel with this nonsense request. Re-read my posts i quoted you or don't. Up to you, i already made my points and they all still stand.
    4. Bye again (yeah yeah nonsense always able to trigger me, sad life)
    1. The funny thing is if I was in your shoes I would just link a post to prove my point because it's easy. You haven't linked me any of them because you don't think you've actually proved me wrong.
    2. I never said that a Mirage's ability to dodge while cc'd wasn't an intended mechanic. Stop trying to twist my words. All I said was that it's a pure defensive mechanic that gets abused and frequently complained about. Again, the same applies to pre-nerf Full Counter and current Holosmith defense/sustain. You said people complain more about overtuned offensive mechanics compared to defensive ones. That's where I disagreed and provided examples of why I have that opinion.
    3. Again, all of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    4. Bye again!
    1. We had that same thing exactly in that Mesmer thread already and i requoted your posts and my posts and i have no intention to do it again and feed your lazyness. It is already there it is more or less the whole thread, like every post of mine which quote a post from you. I do not quote them again in this Ranger thread. It makes no sense to do it. You can just re-read like every single answer i made by quoting you. Every single one since Adam and Eva.
    2. I don't twist your words it simply doesn't make sense to compare that, the Mirage mechanic is intended the 2 secs dodge on Ranger autoattack never was. Aside from that Mirage dodge has a big offensive component as well. So no, you didn't prove me wrong because your arguments are wrong. Every of your examples has an offensive component and the difference to stuff like Holo or pre nerf Fullcounter is as mentioned that the extra evade on autoattack on GS never caused to turn GS Ranger any near into the monster lvl of Holo. So ofc ppl complain more about Holo than about one evade more Ranger should not have. And in general what ppl complain about or not isn't any indicator at all if something is op, unhealthy mechanic or not in the first place. So your whole argument that ppl never complained about GS auto until now is not an argument for your point that it never was an issue because ppl never complained before. This is just nonsense, it doesn't matter at all what ppl complained about and what not. I was aware of that issue but it wasn't that big of an issue make me come into forum and complain. But i am not like you though :joy:
    3. All my back up is in the Mesmer thread where it belongs. I don't copy the whole thread into the Ranger channel. That you are too lazy to re-read the Mesmer thread doesn't make all my points disappear, they all still stand. To give you 3 short examples (AGAIN) without re-writing the whole chain of facts and on locig and gameknowledge based arguments: you maybe remember me analzing your Vallun clips (other ppl said the same to you to other clips like the one with Helio on Keyba stream you linked) and prove your statement wrong that the oneshots shown there were not avoidable. I explained pretty well why Vallun just played bad and could have survived there. I remember you on my wall of text explanation about at least 10 counters to MoD and why only MoP is broken and why MoD need to be instant as an interrupt tool and why it is no oneshot tool anymore during you denied that MoD even has a single counter. I remember you how i told you why only looking at tooltip cds in terms of Mantras is only half the truth. If you don't remember my whole chain of facts and arguments then re-read the kitten Mesmer thread. I don't say it again and i don't quote it into Ranger channel. We don't need everything 500 times in the forum. It is already there and every point i made in that thread still stands pretty solid until now. You even agreed to most of it rofl... so pls stop being that narrowed. No nonsense you try to do here will corrupt my points in particular not your lazyness to just re-read the Mesmer thread.
    4. Bye again again
    1. You literally said, "Sry i am too lazy." when I told you to link me a post. Again, I'll say it for a third (fourth? fifth?) time...
      Your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof - "You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove."
      So, it's illogical and incorrect of you to assume that it's my job to constantly disprove all of the claims you're flinging around.
    2. You were twisting my words. And again, I'll say it for a third (fourth? fifth?) time...
      All of your responses to me can be summed up like this... "I'm right, you're wrong. I make sense, you don't make sense. I have arguments, you don't have arguments." without anything substantial to back up any of your claims.
    3. Again, I'll say it for a third (fourth? fifth?) time...
      You literally said, "Sry i am too lazy." when I told you to link me a post.
      I also posted raw footage of 10 games I played in a row on core mantra mesmer on EU. You can clearly see me rolling over people who aren't as skilled as Vallun (not that he's even that good to begin with). Funnily enough, he's actually rank 53 on EU even though he plays on NA. I'm always higher rated than him on NA and have much more comp experience than he does and a much wider range of classes. So I found it pretty silly when you mentioned my win ratio prior to playing mantra mesmer and the fact that I was rated 1500 even though I prefaced that in my original post where I stated that I dropped rating on purpose to show the build's effectiveness at a variety of skill ranges as I climb back up. I'm also winning 1vXs on the build against Plat 1 players so if that doesn't show you how big the skill difference is even though I'm on 6 times my normal ping, I don't know what will. Oh wait... I do! Let me just 1vX some plat 2 and 3 players as I climb up the ladder again. :)
    4. Bye again again!

    I said i am too lazy because i already did it. I already proved you wrong in literally every answer to you i quote one of your posts, re-read them all, you don't even need to search just start with Adam and Eva on page one of the Mesmer thread (not page one, i actually joined the thread later, maybe page 3 or something). You also already asked me to re-quote your and my posts directly in the Mesmer thread and i did it back then. So why do it again, in particular into a Ranger thread where it doesn't belong? During you are just too lazy because you try to corrupt my points without the need of arguments because you have none. I mean are you rly that narrowed/ stupid? Or you try to trigger me? You compeltely avoid all my last arguments by just jumping back to a point before i explained why i don't wanna quote again (and i mean AGAIN). I even gave you 3 examples here more than once to make you remember but you just ignore them. This is so obviously just destructive behavior that i have no words anymore...

    Yes you now posted some other footage i can analyze step by step and dismantle every successful oneshot as simpel l2p issue on side of the low skilled opponents you face in low Plat games (haven't seen any higher ranked footage from you until now, also not in NA). In the first game already quite in the start i could tell you, that only ppl being totally bad and unaware and not reacting at all to your Mass Invis right in front of their ears and eyes make you able to oneshot these brain-afk bots and not the build you play, even though i agree to Chaosline and stealthspam with PU indeed being an issue, in particular on Coremes where you still have oneshot dmg with such insane sustain.

    As said you even agreed to me in the Mesmer thread (at least you said so, i guess it was because you were running out of arguments because i am just right), if you need all my back up in addition to the summary i already gave you here then re-read the Mesmer thread. I am tired of talking about Mesmer in a Ranger channel. And the whole discussion with you is so destructive and useless for everyone in this forum that i rly just stop at this point. Your lvl of narrowness and bias doesn't deserve any more attention. You didn't even say anything substantial in your last posts, it was just repeating contentfree protest to what i say. I am out of kindergarten, play with yourself, thanks.

    Final bye!

    dude stop please, this is really getting out of hand. shadowpass is right, you started this convo and tell him to do smth. Yet you refuse to do what you want him to do. There is no substance to argue about, you brought nothing to (this) table and you are just repeating the same flawed logic with every post you make. You cannot change someones mind with empty phrases and at this point you are just spamming in this thread.

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Runiir.6425 said:

    @aymnad.9023 said:
    The question and the reasoning behind this change is probably this :
    Since we give rangers new defense tools (on block + evade) where do we cut some defense?
    What do you guys think is a decent way to nerf greatsword and keep the auto evade?
    Reducing the block time to 2s? 1.5s? Or something else?
    Edit : I also think the 15 endurance is too small. Maybe add an other effect to make it worth depending on the endurance level?

    If they are going to take the evade, how about a 15% damage increase to the damage output. The GS never hit hard to begin with, it was a defensive weapon with only one actual attack that mattered, everything else was utility and defensive in nature. The LEAST they can do is make every single hit in the chain hurt if they remove the evade.

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    You what IS a kitten bug? The entire mirage profession.

    Dodge while cc'd? Sounds like a kitten bug to me. How about you remove that Anet?

    [email protected]

    Way to dumb down the game.

    Instead of throwing a tantrum like a five year old. Make a constructive complaint and send it to ArenaNet if you don't agree with their decisions.

    They have made many questionable decisions in the past year. From buffing Holo to nerfing core guard and druid. Leaving mirage cloak unchecked, and Mercy signet in the game.

    I understand you don't want your main class nerfed, I understand how that feels.
    But at the end of the day, this wasn't intended behavior and should never have existed in the first place.

    And ranger GS is already very strong without it, having gap closer, evade, block, hard cc and burst all in the same weapon is a boon very few classes has access to.
    Many classes have seen nerfs this patch, so it's only fair that ranger gets theirs

    Are you kidding me? Ranger gets nerfed constantly compared to most classes.

    Wanna take a look at the core guard nerfs the past year?

    They don't compare to how they have gutted druid.

    It can't even compete with core guard for a support role in pvp/wvw.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can you guys stop tagging me with your quotes? Thanks.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    dude stop please, this is really getting out of hand. shadowpass is right, you started this convo and tell him to do smth. Yet you refuse to do what you want him to do. There is no substance to argue about, you brought nothing to (this) table and you are just repeating the same flawed logic with every post you make. You cannot change someones mind with empty phrases and at this point you are just spamming in this thread.

    You are too late, i haven't answered him again until now for exactly the reasons you try to accuse me of. He wants me to copy the Mesmer thread stuff into the Ranger channel what doesn't make sense because as you mentioned it would just spam this channel with stuff not relevant for Ranger. I even gave him a summary of things where i (and others) clearly proved him wrong about Mesmer stuff (already enough to prove me right without him need to check the Mesmer channel himself) yet he just ignores them. If he refuse to believe me (because he just try to corrupt my points without arguments and you are naive enough to fall for it it seems) he can just jump into the Mesmer thread and re-read it, all proves i need are already writen there, that is exactly the point. There is no need for me to copy the Mesmer thread into this Ranger channel. I even gave him examples proving me right, he just ignores them kitten.

    I already stopped talking to that narrowed and biased wall because it is a waste of time and i didn't want to talk about Mesmer in a Ranger thread anymore was one of the reasons. No i didn't start this convo, i just jumped into a convo between Apharma, Tyga and him already running and wanted to add my thoughts to the Ranger topic. I was just showing his hypocrite behavior you can see when comparing his posts about Mesmer and Ranger. What you say to me fits to him way more and was another reason i stopped talking to him already. He did just copy paste his meaningless sentences in his last 3 posts not me and during that he ignored every argument i gave him (the reasons why i don't quote Mesmer stuff into a Ranger channel, that i already quoted stuff for him in the Mesmer thread itself and all examples which already gave him what he ask for). Are you his smurf account trying to do his work after he got banned or what? What you say makes no sense at all. Anyway you are too late to the party i was out here already with a final bye, as you can see that i didn't respond to him until now. GG for kicking an open door rofl. Genius.

    To the Ranger topic: I didn't see that Ranger gets an evade on the 4 skill as compensation too. Maybe all unhappy Ranger mains just wait and try the changes when they are live, it could be that GS now is even more fluid and stronger than before when counting in all changes to the weapon and not only looking at the autoattack. At least that is what i do when looking at Scourge changes didn't make me happy at all first.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • I don't know what some guys are smoking, but the truth is only ONE and the facts are:
    1. As @Eurantien.4632 said, this 2 times more evade after you cancelling the skill, wasn't a complaint UNTIL NOW! Why?! Because in a real fight, these 3 evades it will be very rare.
    2. I never met a Ranger who did all these 3 evades in a row when he fought vs me.
    3. I never saw rangers who abuse of this evades in any videoclips. The only one video where you properly can see this 3 evades is @Eurantien.4632 GS guide. And even him (who is one of the best PVP Ranger in the game) didn't do it easily or all 3 times all the time. He explained that not every time you get it, it's need training, experience and ofc depend on what the enemy is doing.
    4. Even you are trying to abuse this, you will die in 3-4 seconds because these evades are not like perma evades, and between them, you will get CC, be hit, and you will still be in melee range.
    5. This is NOT an exploit!
    6. I agree that, IF Anet considering this skill shouldn't be offering 2 extra evades, then they should fix it in that way that when you cancel the skill, the next auto should start with Slash. I don't think it is so hard to fix this instead to take out Power Stab. GS is ranger best melee weapon, if not the best one in general. They will nerf LB, we already know this, if they want to nerf GS, then this class will not be played anymore.
    7. If they will change/fix this extra evades, then they must change all extra bonuses from every class/weapon who are using cancelling for those bonuses!
    8. I am sure, the old rangers will found a way to play with new changes too ... but Anet will lose the new players, no one will give a try to ranger anymore.
    9. In the same time, I know why ANET is doing this, and they are doing this regularly because they want ppl to make new Legendary weapons. Why? Well, usual players are making 2-3 Legendary Weapons, the ones they are using often. At least this is my case, now, if they will nerf GS and they will buff the Sword (I am not 100% that it will be a buff the way they chose to change it) I am considering to make a Legendary Sword. Sorry, this was a lie, I'll not make any Legendary Sword, just because Anet wants this:).
    10. Do not try to argue with me, you already know that I am right and you are wrong :P .... because most rangers are saying what I am saying!

  • After the treatment druid and staff received, I can be 100% sure that this post will be completely ignored but regardless:

    GS auto-attack chain change - Very bad, Idea. In addition to what everybody else said, It also had some nice synergy potential with the SKIRMISHING trait-line evade skills(which is probably the least used trait-line for rangers). So even less reasons to go for SKIRMISHING, so less build diversity.

    GS (4) - Sword throw -In addition to what everybody else said, Very sad to see one of the best GS animations works we have just getting deleted

    Regarding the dud(which doesn't want to be tagged) that keep saying GS auto is an exploit - I would like to see an official reference to that statement, and also, I have a feeling that this "exploit" /"feature" will still be in the game after the change but will just give you double energy instead of the evade(we'll see tomorrow).

    But GS changes and Druid butchering cannot be compared. GS will still be viable, Druid just got deleted from PVP.

  • KeyOrion.9506KeyOrion.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    Nobody uses the sword/dagger combo because only a very few Ranger's were able to utilize and understand it's Movement structure. I used to train Ranger's in Sword/Dagger, and sadly it never had any real power or use to it. Lots of evades. I mean lots. You went Sword/Dagger with Shortbow., and you wre hopping all over the place. I'm sure with the current Permaboon garbage it would be like fighting a staff thief. Hard to pin down and keep down. But...people didn't want to jump up all over the place...they didn't understand that when you charge to the enemy that you had to charge to the enemy's RIGHT side before you activated a skill that made your character spin COUNTER CLOCKWISE....<----This is what confused many Ranger players. They were trying to spin to the rear of the enemy but they couldn't figure out why they were instead spinning away from the enemy, instead of getting behind the enemy. You had to be on the enemy right side....which means when you were charging towards the enemy, you were maneuvering slightly to the left. So when you hit the Sword/Dagger spin attacks, you could spin all the way to the rear of the enemy, then jump away as the enemy AoE'd. Then you jumped right back into them after they unloaded the AoE. Seriously though, most of the time Sword/Dagger ranger's werent' able to do any sizeable damage to the enemy, and the enemy couldn't do any real HITS on something they couldn't even hit. Four out of five battles were usually stalemates.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:
    5. This is NOT an exploit!

    An exploit is use of any game mechanic against the intended design. As you didn't design that attackchain you are not in the position to define that matter. The time something exists in the game also doesn't matter.
    We don't know if it was an exploit but you are not the one who decides that.

    1. If they will change/fix this extra evades, then they must change all extra bonuses from every class/weapon who are using cancelling for those bonuses!

    Thats exactly the point. There is no other class that could use a channeled skill for something like this. All other skills just go on cooldown.

    1. I am sure, the old rangers will found a way to play with new changes too ... but Anet will lose the new players, no one will give a try to ranger anymore.

    What? How do new players stop playing rangers when they will never know that thing existed and many don't even knew you could do that? Outside of hearing stories from sobbing veterans that complain that the gras was greener a long time ago...

    1. In the same time, I know why ANET is doing this, and they are doing this regularly because they want ppl to make new Legendary weapons. Why? Well, usual players are making 2-3 Legendary Weapons, the ones they are using often. At least this is my case, now, if they will nerf GS and they will buff the Sword (I am not 100% that it will be a buff the way they chose to change it) I am considering to make a Legendary Sword. Sorry, this was a lie, I'll not make any Legendary Sword, just because Anet wants this:).

    GS will remain as the best PvP melee weapon for rangers. It has everything you ever want from a melee weapon in PvP. It is time we get a bit more diversity here.

  • Kilrik.6320Kilrik.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    @KeyOrion.9506 said:
    Nobody uses the sword/dagger combo because only a very few Ranger's were able to utilize and understand it's Movement structure. I used to train Ranger's in Sword/Dagger, and sadly it never had any real power or use to it. Lots of evades. I mean lots. You went Sword/Dagger with Shortbow., and you wre hopping all over the place. I'm sure with the current Permaboon garbage it would be like fighting a staff thief. Hard to pin down and keep down. But...people didn't want to jump up all over the place...they didn't understand that when you charge to the enemy that you had to charge to the enemy's RIGHT side before you activated a skill that made your character spin COUNTER CLOCKWISE....<----This is what confused many Ranger players. They were trying to spin to the rear of the enemy but they couldn't figure out why they were instead spinning away from the enemy, instead of getting behind the enemy. You had to be on the enemy right side....which means when you were charging towards the enemy, you were maneuvering slightly to the left. So when you hit the Sword/Dagger spin attacks, you could spin all the way to the rear of the enemy, then jump away as the enemy AoE'd. Then you jumped right back into them after they unloaded the AoE. Seriously though, most of the time Sword/Dagger ranger's werent' able to do any sizeable damage to the enemy, and the enemy couldn't do any real HITS on something they couldn't even hit. Four out of five battles were usually stalemates.

    I myself am one of the few fans of ranger sword (even going so far as to craft Bolt). However, with this coming patch I believe even less players will use the sword/dagger or any other sword combo. Sword is becoming a shell of its former self. It was decent for disengage/distancing and evasion, and now it will be much worse off in regards to both. Some might disagree, but sword changes are even more devastating than greatsword in their scope.

    First off, mobility of the sword will be lost by the additional length of Hornet Sting's (HS) cooldown, nearly doubling at 15 sec. HS was 400 units of the 1000 unit combo leap of HS/Monarch's Leap (ML), so the full 1k unit leap can only be performed half as often. HS was also 1 of the 2 on-demand evades, which again is cut in half from the increased cooldown. ML's 600 unit leap remains at 8 seconds, but covers a decent evasion skill of Serpent's Strike (SS) which on the surface is a truly shorter cooldown matching ML for the most part, and therein lies the problem. SS is gated in the chain, so in order to even access the evasion, one would have to perform a successful (non-interrupted) leap, and then within a 5 sec window, they have access to SS. For most sword user's ML, despite the higher damage potential was never used as a leap into battle, it has been used for a disengage through distance or hitting the finisher in a smoke field. That said, how can SS be of any use. If you leap at your foe, you will more than likely suffer significant damage before you can access the evasion, since the leap itself is unprotected. Additionally, if you are kiting without a target SS's direction is extremely unpredictable other than the fact that you will veer right. Furthermore, if you were to come from stealth, why would you need an evade. At best you might activate your heal, an attack skill like axe 4/5, or warhorn 4, dagger 4 wouldn't make sense nor would 5 since it's for snagging from a distance. Whatever you decide, you get one skill activated before you have to use SS or just plain lose it with the 5 seconds expiring and reverting to ML once more. People might say, they gave us a refresh of ML/SS if HS connects, but once again if you were activating HS you are most likely going for the kite and will only utilize ML for a disengage.
    To summarize, a huge loss in evasion and disengage with no improvement whatsoever other than directly leaping forward into a combo, and the improvement for your opponent in one of the biggest tells of all in the new SS.

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Friendly request to druid players, please remove the chronomancer corpse from behind the back of the shed when you get led there, it's starting to smell really bad. Thank you.

    Chronomancers lie behind the "failed reworks" shed. Druid is in the nerfed to oblivion pile.

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:
    5. This is NOT an exploit!

    An exploit is use of any game mechanic against the intended design. As you didn't design that attackchain you are not in the position to define that matter. The time something exists in the game also doesn't matter.
    We don't know if it was an exploit but you are not the one who decides that.

    But you are the one who decides it is? Boy, please measure your words.

    1. If they will change/fix this extra evades, then they must change all extra bonuses from every class/weapon who are using cancelling for those bonuses!

    Thats exactly the point. There is no other class that could use a channeled skill for something like this. All other skills just go on cooldown.

    You are wrong again, boy! Many classes can do this. Even I don't agree with @Tayga.3192 , he posted this: https://imgur.com/a/PIxBVj4 . And are many other classes who still can do this kind of things.

    1. I am sure, the old rangers will found a way to play with new changes too ... but Anet will lose the new players, no one will give a try to ranger anymore.

    What? How do new players stop playing rangers when they will never know that thing existed and many don't even knew you could do that? Outside of hearing stories from sobbing veterans that complain that the gras was greener a long time ago...

    Simple, because when you nerf a main weapon of a class, that class will become weaker. And for your information I didn't say that that channelling thing should remain, I said it should be fixed if Anet considers this, but keep the GS skills as they are now.

    1. In the same time, I know why ANET is doing this, and they are doing this regularly because they want ppl to make new Legendary weapons. Why? Well, usual players are making 2-3 Legendary Weapons, the ones they are using often. At least this is my case, now, if they will nerf GS and they will buff the Sword (I am not 100% that it will be a buff the way they chose to change it) I am considering to make a Legendary Sword. Sorry, this was a lie, I'll not make any Legendary Sword, just because Anet wants this:).

    GS will remain as the best PvP melee weapon for rangers. It has everything you ever want from a melee weapon in PvP. It is time we get a bit more diversity here.

    Do you have any idea how to play Ranger? Do you have experience in sPVP and WvW? I am asking you this, because in case you didn't notice, this thread was made from PVP (sPVP and WvW) POV.

    I know you are a PVE boy, so somehow I understand why you are so pleased with the new changes because you want Sword to be buffed more than fixing GS. I am sure in PVE that 200% increased damage and other things will help a lot the Ranger, but in PVP, the only spot I see for sword is again Bunker build or Boonbeast. And again ppl will complain, and they will ask for nerf, but guess what, they will not fix the sword , they will nerf again the traits, utilities, in other words, they will nerf core ranger again!

  • Kilrik.6320Kilrik.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    "I know you are a PVE boy, so somehow I understand why you are so pleased with the new changes because you want Sword to be buffed more than fixing GS. I am sure in PVE that 200% increased damage and other things will help a lot the Ranger, but in PVP, the only spot I see for sword is again Bunker build or Boonbeast. And again ppl will complain, and they will ask for nerf, but guess what, they will not fix the sword , they will nerf again the traits, utilities, in other words, they will nerf core ranger again!"

    @Dragonzhunter.8506
    I'm not arguing with you for I find the patch horribly displeasing, but the way your text read is somewhat confusing. You are not saying the sword got a 200% damage increase are you? It was dagger's Stalker's Strike that received the buff by 200% plus the potential for more based on circumstances. The sword's damage was left untouched for all 3 skills. Also, I can't speak for other sword users, but I feel and suspect the majority of wvw sword rangers see this patch as a huge nerf. I use sword not for for it's damage, but it's utility and that is negatively affected for the way I play.

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2019

    @Kilrik.6320 said:
    "I know you are a PVE boy, so somehow I understand why you are so pleased with the new changes because you want Sword to be buffed more than fixing GS. I am sure in PVE that 200% increased damage and other things will help a lot the Ranger, but in PVP, the only spot I see for sword is again Bunker build or Boonbeast. And again ppl will complain, and they will ask for nerf, but guess what, they will not fix the sword , they will nerf again the traits, utilities, in other words, they will nerf core ranger again!"

    @Dragonzhunter.8506
    I'm not arguing with you for I find the patch horribly displeasing, but the way your text read is somewhat confusing. You are not saying the sword got a 200% damage increase are you? It was dagger's Stalker's Strike that received the buff by 200% plus the potential for more based on circumstances. The sword's damage was left untouched for all 3 skills. Also, I can't speak for other sword users, but I feel and suspect the majority of wvw sword rangers see this patch as a huge nerf. I use sword not for for it's damage, but it's utility and that is negatively affected for the way I play.

    Sorry, my bad, you are right. The idea is both Sword and Dagger changes are mainly for PVE area, and not for sPVP or WvW. At least this is my opinion.