Necromancer Sustain and Healing....

[Nerah.8235]

I was thinking about Necro healing, and was wondering whether anyone would think it is feasible to add the (signet passive) ability to heal while in shroud to the Signet of Undeath ONLY while using the Spite-line GM Trait "Signets of Suffering", while making the current higher LF gain baseline for the Signet. As it stands, I don't know of anyone that uses this signet, and the heal-in-shroud issue seems to be mostly a PVE (raid/CM) issue, where the Spite line is used by most necros in any case. I think in PvP, people will still use GM3 in spite for the corrupts.

[ZDragon.3046]

Kind of hard to understand what you are trying to say here its kind of unclear. You talk about healing but then name Singet of undeath which has nothing to do with healing.

Signet of vamp. a method of healing in shroud when you are hit by anything as its passive. But of course you give up consume conditions if you run that which limits your condi clense potential

People use GM3 in pvp because boons are out of control and its necros only option to combat boon heavy builds. There are alot of builds where necro just loses if it does not have enough boon strip/corrupt to fight against. If anet ever cuts boons down respectfully where necro could depend more on weapon skill or just utility corrupts people would surely branch out of GM3 for GM2 or even GM1

[Nerah.8235]

The idea is this:Signet of Undeath = not great, weak utility, never takenAbility to Heal through Shroud = not (typically) possible, greatly desired in raids, etc. Note that this would mean a healer or field-blast healing YOU. The signet itself does no healing, which is where I think you are coming from.

Add Heal-through-Shroud as the passive effect to Signet of Undeath while using Signets of Spite. Make new baseline LF gain the current higher figure while out of shroud. Keep the active the same. Now, you have a great option for raids, which allows proper healing through shroud, and decent LF gain over time (in raid you are in combat for a looonngg time). It would have selfish synergy with traits like Vital Persistence. Balanced by needing to use a precious utility slot AND a GM trait for an ability that does not increase damage, nor add group utility.

I run Signet of Vampirism. It is not constructive to consider the passive a heal. What it is actually doing is providing a limited form of damage resistance, as it only procs on hit, only 1/sec, and only heals for about 400 unless you run an enormous amount of healing power (not advisable).

The Spite GM3 will always be run in any type of PvP mode, as it provides too much utility to pass up: ranged PBAoE damage, multi boon strip, and retaliation, all on instant cast (no tell). Right now, GM2 is mostly run in PvE to help with damage output. I think that GM1 is currently underused overall, as is Signet of Undeath, but I think my idea could improve both in a fair way.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Nerah.8235 said:The idea is this:Signet of Undeath = not great, weak utility, never takenAbility to Heal through Shroud = not (typically) possible, greatly desired in raids, etc. Note that this would mean a healer or field-blast healing YOU. The signet itself does no healing, which is where I think you are coming from.I see but if thats going to be a thing should it not just be on a base trait within necromancer some place perhaps in death magicThere is no real reason for this to be on a signet passive which already has questionable a good passive and active (the cast time on the active is just a bit too long)

Add Heal-through-Shroud as the passive effect to Signet of Undeath while using Signets of Spite. Make new baseline LF gain the current higher figure while out of shroud. Keep the active the same. Now, you have a great option for raids, which allows proper healing through shroud, and decent LF gain over time (in raid you are in combat for a looonngg time). It would have selfish synergy with traits like Vital Persistence. Balanced by needing to use a precious utility slot AND a GM trait for an ability that does not increase damage, nor add group utility.

This is a immidate damage loss and no one would take it. You would be giving up signet of spite or some other dps increasing utility for this and most people just probably would not do that anyways.

I run Signet of Vampirism. It is not constructive to consider the passive a heal. What it is actually doing is providing a limited form of damage resistance, as it only procs on hit, only 1/sec, and only heals for about 400 unless you run an enormous amount of healing power (not advisable).

Well in pvp 400 hp per second is not that bad its actually rather solid considering no healing investment that said in pve where you generally should not be getting hit much then no. IF you are getting hit that much in pve it wont matter if you can be healed though shroud or not cause you are taking too much damage in general. Your goal in pve should not be to get hit at all unless you are built to be the fixate and want to play that role.

The Spite GM3 will always be run in any type of PvP mode, as it provides too much utility to pass up: ranged PBAoE damage, multi boon strip, and retaliation, all on instant cast (no tell). Right now, GM2 is mostly run in PvE to help with damage output. I think that GM1 is currently underused overall, as is Signet of Undeath, but I think my idea could improve both in a fair way.

Well considering 1 of my reapers does not run spite at all and the other actually runs GM1 i dont know but i tend not to run perfect meta pvp builds especially for necromancer because they just dont work well for me. Necro is very very easy to counter and the more predictable your build is the easier it is to give up the advantage.This is just me though I personally think that GM3 is very nice in spite and GM2 is even solid if you are good at quickly getting people to 50% GM1 is not used very much because most of the signets are outdated.Vampiric signet is solid if you ask me,Signet of undeath just needs faster activation,Signet of spite either needs its condition applications updated (its missing burning, slow, confusion, and chill if i recall) or needs its cd reduced by like half.Plague signet needs a new passive (xfer or copy a condition to a foe when hit once ever x seconds)

Locust Signet is kind of ok (if it hits multiple foes) its just too situational not sure what can be done about that.

[Methuselah.4376]

@Nerah.8235 said:As it stands, I don't know of anyone that uses this signet

It is used in support scourge builds to ensure a steady stream of life force to spam shade skills as well as an emergency rez at distance.

[Nerah.8235]

I will have to disagree with your assessment of Signet of Undeath (both passive and active). If it were remotely useful in any mode, you would see it used once-in-a-while, as it affects the primary professional mechanic of the class/profession. The only player I have ever actually seen use it with my own eyes is me, and mostly for experimental purposes at that. The utility (even traited) is just not high enough, as necromancers absolutely rely on their utility slots to provide what their one-dimensional weapon sets and the general purpose professional mechanic does not: movement and other utillity (defense and boon corrupts). My own opinion is that if you gave this the heal through shroud when traited, it would actually see some play. It is pretty obvious that [necro] players think necro should be able to heal through shroud somehow: look at the whole soul eater debacle for that.

The damage loss is what it is. The necro already has bottom of the barrel damage on raid golem anyway as far as I am aware. At least this would help the healer to maintain /keep the party HP up. Right now, the healer may be put in a position where the necro is the odd man for healing if he is in shroud, which is one reason that has been given for necro being excluded from raids, etc.

Regards the other Signets:

The Signet of Vampirism (passive) is not really a heal, as it only triggers on damage application. I don't know of any level-adjusted attacks that do <400 hp damage, so it is effectively a damage reduction in all modes. This isn't bad, but you would not use it in end game PvE (at least it is not optimal): in PvE either Consume Conditions or Blood Fiend are superior choices (depends on scenario). I personally use SoV in WvW and sPvP to help tank damage, since necro has no blocks or invulns: in those modes, you will absolutely be hit no matter your skill level.

Signet of Spite is very solid, but boring. It is a good addition to almost any build in any mode. In power, it gives MORE! In condi, it can provide both burst and cover.

Signet of Locust is also solid, but even more boring. I use it a lot, as it is a non-corruptible speed boost, and clutch heal. It just stinks that we need to use a utility Signet to provide what every other class gets for free on their weapon sets.

Plague Signet is great on condi-centered builds. They should revert it back to transferring all condi upon active transfer: I don't like the current limit.

[Nerah.8235]

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Nerah.8235 said:As it stands, I don't know of anyone that uses this signet

It is used in support scourge builds to ensure a steady stream of life force to spam shade skills as well as an emergency rez at distance.

OK. I suppose it could be used in that manner (doesn't seem optimal, although our friends at snowcrows DO have a healer scourge build that uses it). I will say that I (personally) have never seen a scourge use this signet in this manner, but full disclosure, I play mostly WvW at this point. In WvW the signet passive is not effective enough outside of zergs, and the active is too long cast to keep up with the zerg, so it is sort of like a fish out of water.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Nerah.8235 said:I will have to disagree with your assessment of Signet of Undeath (both passive and active). If it were remotely useful in any mode, you would see it used once-in-a-while, as it affects the primary professional mechanic of the class/profession. The only player I have ever actually seen use it with my own eyes is me, and mostly for experimental purposes at that. The utility (even traited) is just not high enough, as necromancers absolutely rely on their utility slots to provide what their one-dimensional weapon sets and the general purpose professional mechanic does not: movement and other utillity (defense and boon corrupts). My own opinion is that if you gave this the heal through shroud when traited, it would actually see some play. It is pretty obvious that [necro] players think necro should be able to heal through shroud somehow: look at the whole soul eater debacle for that.

The damage loss is what it is. The necro already has bottom of the barrel damage on raid golem anyway as far as I am aware. At least this would help the healer to maintain /keep the party HP up. Right now, the healer may be put in a position where the necro is the odd man for healing if he is in shroud, which is one reason that has been given for necro being excluded from raids, etc.

Reaper damage is not 37 k but its certainly not the bottom of the barrel its modest if not solid if the player knows what he is doing and on some end game bosses reaper actually excels very well because of how burst heavy its rotation is.Ye healers cant heal you in shroud but if a healer holds back to wait and heal the necro just because he is in shroud in raids then he is a bad healer and needs to learn how to play better. You dont hold back your heals just because the necromancer goes into shroud.

Necro was excluded from raids because its damage was worse than what it is now and it also provided 0 beneficial party buffs to its subgroup. Now it has solid damage (assuming the person knows how to play and knows mechanics). Reaper having such a high hp pool allows it to go down much less than alot of other professions do and in situations like that you will notice that reaper can do alot more damage depending on how solid the overall group is. For me im almost one of the last players to die in fractals or raids because I can take hits that other professions cant. I go down far less times and while my dps never ramps as high as say a weaver, or firebrand initally if the fight goes on long enough I generally end up doing more dps than firebrands and more than the weavers (if they die or go down alot)

Regards the other Signets:

The Signet of Vampirism (passive) is not really a heal, as it only triggers on damage application. I don't know of any level-adjusted attacks that do <400 hp damage, so it is effectively a damage reduction in all modes. This isn't bad, but you would not use it in end game PvE (at least it is not optimal): in PvE either Consume Conditions or Blood Fiend are superior choices (depends on scenario). I personally use SoV in WvW and sPvP to help tank damage, since necro has no blocks or invulns: in those modes, you will absolutely be hit no matter your skill level.

I already know this and stated pvp from the start there was no real reason to even write this.

Signet of Spite is very solid, but boring. It is a good addition to almost any build in any mode. In power, it gives MORE! In condi, it can provide both burst and cover.

I dont agree i think the signet is outdated and has an high cd for its active vs passive components

Signet of Locust is also solid, but even more boring. I use it a lot, as it is a non-corruptible speed boost, and clutch heal. It just stinks that we need to use a utility Signet to provide what every other class gets for free on their weapon sets.

Quickening Thirst (trait) ,Speed of shadows (trait in a commonly used line), Locust swarm (warhorn 5)You have 3 other options fore speed increases here you complaint is kind of misguided

Plague Signet is great on condi-centered builds. They should revert it back to transferring all condi upon active transfer: I don't like the current limit.

Its passive is still not very good its punishing depending on where you use it. The nerf to the active part is sad but not the biggest issue with it. In most cases outside of pve you will not have more than 5 conditions on you at any given time if you have any sense of awareness and basic understanding of mechanics of the area around you.

In pvp its passive is a death trap while fighting along allies always has been and sitll is. Sorry to say it would be far better if the passive was changed the active is fine even with the nerf.

[Methuselah.4376]

@Nerah.8235 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Nerah.8235 said:As it stands, I don't know of anyone that uses this signet

It is used in support scourge builds to ensure a steady stream of life force to spam shade skills as well as an emergency rez at distance.

OK. I suppose it could be used in that manner (doesn't seem optimal, although our friends at snowcrows DO have a healer scourge build that uses it). I will say that I (personally) have never seen a scourge use this signet in this manner, but full disclosure, I play mostly WvW at this point. In WvW the signet passive is not effective enough outside of zergs, and the active is too long cast to keep up with the zerg, so it is sort of like a fish out of water.

I use it in my support scourge build and I don't use the one put up by SC, I find their support scourge build very.....unsatisfying and shallow. They clearly don't spend too much time on the spec.

[Nerah.8235]

This is why I don't post much anymore (well, that and the general futility of it all). Note sure why we are discussing the other signets at all. They are sort of OK'ish. Are they great? No. Are they archaic, underpowered, and sort of all over the place, with long CDs on the actives? Yes. On those points, we can probably agree.

I am no game expert. I haven't played since the beta. I don't do spreadsheet analysis of the different build combinations. And I am not going to argue the finer points of the various Signets. I had a sort of "off the wall" idea for a very specific Signet, under very specific circumstances. You don't like it for a couple of reasons. Got it. [You] Also don't like that I mentioned my thoughts on SoV. Duly noted.

Your speed boosts mentioned are all valid, but miss the point entirely. I like the permanent, boonless speed increase (I often trait it to get passive in shroud as well).

Quickening Thirst only works if you: 1) use a dagger, 2) use Blood Magic, 3) use Quickening Thirst, and 4) keep health above a threshold value. Most people fail one or more of those conditions.

Warhorn is certainly easier to use. Equip it and press "5". Unfortunately, it manifests the speed as a boon, which is easily corrupted.

Speed of shadows is OK, but only provides a short speed increase, and does it via a boon [see warhorn]. I find, anecdotally, it is better used for the soft condition removal.

The only thing that would approach this would be Traveler Runes (all 6) or superspeed (if you could get decent uptime).

Anyway, am out.