[Merged] Oh cool you must buy more build slots

[Kanok.3027]

@"rabenpriester.7129" said:You don't need to be "on my side". This problem simply doesn't concern you, it's fine. Just go play somewhere else tbh. Why would I need to convince you, a random dude who comes in and just says "naahhh you don't need that"?

I seriously don't get people like you. You can't be bothered to think for yourself or do the math from the starting post, and you dare to impose on people like me what we need or want from the game. Even if we directly and politely state what we need you are like "nahhh proof it to ME". Who do you think you are?

All you're doing is splitting the playerbase.

I have a simple request. Acknowledge it and move on. No need to convince you. Just get out.

And things like this will get you nowhere. Basically tearing someone down for having an opinion on this whole matter is not doing you any favors. Just so you know, as soon as build templates are implemented, yes, it will be their problem as well since they have to worry about the extra UI clutter, key bindings, etc. Telling them to "get out" seems like you have a problem with criticism or just with any opinion that you deem as "stupid and pointless". Besides, the more accepting the general majority is, the more accepting Anet would be since the general audience is what they are aiming for.

Try not to be angry over petty things. You don't want to look more of a fool than you just displayed, do you? (and yes, I am in favor of more slots and templates, but I would go about it with more acceptance of what other people think rather than telling them to get bent)

[Dreams.3128]

Says that the person stating their opinion is impeding on what THEY WANT and say they are splitting the community

Tells people to get out

Mmm, ah yes, the logic. I love it.

~ Sincerely,An also hardcore PVE player

[Donari.5237]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Donari.5237" said:I just watched the whole video and never caught them flat out saying that.

It has been answered here by Stephane Lo Presti and others:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1059872

Thanks, I did see that. And I'm 99% sure that it does in fact mean that you have to purchase them per character. However, saying the slots are dedicated to the character is not the same as saying "if you buy a slot on a character, it only applies to that character." As opposed to, you have 3 slots open, you buy a fourth, then -all- your characters have a fourth which they can then individually customize. That's the flat out statement I'm looking for.

It could be that since they are still finalizing the monetization (as per stream comments) that they can't make that statement yet, one way or the other, because they are having internal discussions on the marketing balances involved and could still decide to give account-wide unlocks of numbered slots. Here's hoping (but certainly not expecting).

[rabenpriester.7129]

@"Thorstienn.1642" said:Thanks. Now please bare with this poor ignorant moron, as I am trying to learn here; how often are each of those variants required in 1 instance, and what really constitutes the variant (1 piece armor? An offhand weapon swap?)

The instance is not always an "instance" as in raid wings or fractals, but the character you play on. You want everything on one character, because you want to stay on that character for reasons (like having all bag slots unlocked, having a main etc; and not have alts of the same class). Role changes (support / power dps / condi dps / wvw build) mostly do not happen during a clear (except if you optimize squad composition and/or kill time and adjust it during a run, very complicated and only possible in guilds), but if you pug and want to stay on your character and change groups, they do.

If you do a raid wing and want to swap on the fly, you want to change something in between each fight and depending on others if you notice something is wrong.

Take w3 for example:

1x Chrono Cave1x Chrono Escort Support1x Chrono dps for escort1x Tank on KC with 1005 toughness1x Tank on KC with more toughness depending on other chrono1x Chaos Chrono for Twisted Castle (fall dmg, more toughness, blink, portal)1x High Toughness Tank for Xera1x Low Toughness Tank for Xera1x Power DPS for Xera

The toughness varies between patches and how much boon duration you want, and what runes you take with you, how low you wanna go, what food you want to use. You want to critcap, so that's more to think about when playing power dps.

Granted, some of those builds carry over to other fights, but others (like twisted castle) do not. This stuff is important to make absolutely sure you get to tank, have the right traits and skills (which can be changed manually, obv, but doing this via templates adds another layer of safety and not fucking up) and just play optimally.

Some variants like just swapping one weapon can be quite a bother. Without legendaries and templates, you'd have a lot of weapons to swap in and out. If you accidentally take your high toughness sword, you may suddenly find yourself in the position of tank with low toughness armor and trinkets. And in the wrong subgroup. You don't want that to happen, at stuff like that even happens at high skill raid tournaments.

Do all variants require being on 1 character? (I understand not wanting to switch characters within an instance).

Yes. You don't want to switch, especially if you do not have an SSD. Waiting and downtime is annoying. In the runs I lead I always valued as little downtime as possible way higher than fast kills when it comes to full clears. And you do that via templates and minimizing relogging.

[Menadena.7482]

@"Kyban.4031" said:Please make tab purchases for templates account wide. Character specific upgrades like bag slots are super underwhelming in a game that promotes having many characters as much as this one does and makes those purchases seem worthless. Account wide upgrades are much more appealing in an account based game.

I hope so to as you can not just say "just buy everything on your main" either. Right now that is my charr ranger. A couple years ago it was my norn warrior. Before that my sylvari ele. Other characters have had their days in the sun as well. I have no reason to think my "main" will not be another character soon.

[Thorstienn.1642]

@rabenpriester.7129 said:

@"Thorstienn.1642" said:Thanks. Now please bare with this poor ignorant moron, as I am trying to learn here; how often are each of those variants required in 1 instance, and what really constitutes the variant (1 piece armor? An offhand weapon swap?)

The instance is not always an "instance" as in raid wings or fractals, but the character you play on. You want everything on one character, because you want to stay on that character for reasons (like having all bag slots unlocked, having a main etc; and not have alts of the same class). Role changes (support / power dps / condi dps / wvw build) mostly do not happen during a clear (except if you optimize squad composition and/or kill time and adjust it during a run, very complicated and only possible in guilds), but if you pug and want to stay on your character and change groups, they do.

If you do a raid wing and want to swap on the fly, you want to change something in between each fight and depending on others if you notice something is wrong.

Take w3 for example:

1x Chrono Cave1x Chrono Escort Support1x Chrono dps for escort1x Tank on KC with 1005 toughness1x Tank on KC with more toughness depending on other chrono1x Chaos Chrono for Twisted Castle (fall dmg, more toughness, blink, portal)1x High Toughness Tank for Xera1x Low Toughness Tank for Xera1x Power DPS for Xera

The toughness varies between patches and how much boon duration you want, and what runes you take with you, how low you wanna go, what food you want to use. You want to critcap, so that's more to think about when playing power dps.

Granted, some of those builds carry over to other fights, but others (like twisted castle) do not. This stuff is important to make absolutely sure you get to tank, have the right traits and skills (which can be changed manually, obv, but doing this via templates adds another layer of safety and not kitten up) and just play optimally.

Some variants like just swapping one weapon can be quite a bother. Without legendaries and templates, you'd have

a lot

of weapons to swap in and out. If you accidentally take your high toughness sword, you may suddenly find yourself in the position of tank with low toughness armor and trinkets. And in the wrong subgroup. You don't want that to happen, at stuff like that even happens at high skill raid tournaments.

Do all variants require being on 1 character? (I understand not wanting to switch characters within an instance).

Yes. You don't want to switch, especially if you do not have an SSD. Waiting and downtime is annoying. In the runs I lead I always valued as little downtime as possible way higher than fast kills when it comes to full clears. And you do that via templates and minimizing relogging.

Ok. I can now see where the fundamental difference lies: I have and use a lot of alts (including duplicate classes, even e-specs) and so would never have any qualms about re-logging to an alt that is setup for the content I'm trying g to achieve (my view is if the group wants me in a specific setup, they can wait a minute for me to relog), and I only consider my Main story character a main (and only because I do the story with then).For players like you, I think legendary armor and runes (and weapons I guess) SHOULD be the answer implemented by Anet. There should be no limit to build setups, with the caveat that the gear "in bank" is legendary, after all it can be stat changed ooc already.Meanwhile, as long as the customer is willing to pay (presumably 400-800gem per character) for as many gear templates they want, I agree; I dont see a reason for an apparent 6 cap (besides their obvious UI limitation).

[rabenpriester.7129]

Another thing is: Why even have templates if getting another char slot is just the superior option? You get more bank space, 2 templates, a new blank slate, a new name, more fashion wars characters.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Thorstienn.1642 said:

@rabenpriester.7129 said:Nah, they really can just get out if they display their ignorance as an argument. Useless clutter.

Please, tell me how you really feel?

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Thorstienn.1642 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Thorstienn.1642 said:I get that people want to keep getting what they were "allowed" to have before as a minimum, but suggesting you NEED 20 builds is rediculous. The changes in traits etc must be so small. Just use more characters.I DO agree that something should be done about using the same gear across characters though, at least for legendary, but ideally for any account bound (and I dont have legendary).

I do nat care about traits since I can have up to 24 saved in game and any numbe with chatcodes on my computer.

Problem are gears since I can only save up to 6 and not 30

Ok... so maybe a non-hardcore raider/wvw player like myself just doesn't get it. Perhaps to illustrate your point better you could list these 30 different gear setups for me (that require being on 1 character, but that's no big deal) and what they are used for so I can potentially be on your side.Cause currently I'm imagining you have gear changes where you swap one berserker item to assassins when there is no spotter or something to that effect, which really shouldn't "require" a full pre save.As I say, let us "casuals" know the NEED, so we can be on your side.

@Thorstienn.1642 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Thorstienn.1642 said:I get that people want to keep getting what they were "allowed" to have before as a minimum, but suggesting you NEED 20 builds is rediculous. The changes in traits etc must be so small. Just use more characters.I DO agree that something should be done about using the same gear across characters though, at least for legendary, but ideally for any account bound (and I dont have legendary).

I do nat care about traits since I can have up to 24 saved in game and any numbe with chatcodes on my computer.

Problem are gears since I can only save up to 6 and not 30

Ok... so maybe a non-hardcore raider/wvw player like myself just doesn't get it. Perhaps to illustrate your point better you could list these 30 different gear setups for me (that require being on 1 character, but that's no big deal) and what they are used for so I can potentially be on your side.Cause currently I'm imagining you have gear changes where you swap one berserker item to assassins when there is no spotter or something to that effect, which really shouldn't "require" a full pre save.As I say, let us "casuals" know the NEED, so we can be on your side.

Ok, here we go:

Support chrono:40 boon duration 1000 toughness (only with sword)

50bd 1000t50bd 1000t cc50bd 1251t50bd 1251t cc

60bd 1000t60bd 1000t cc60bd 1251t60bd 1251t cc

75bd 1000t75bd 1000t cc75bd 1251t75bd 1251t cc

100bd 1000t100bd 1000t cc100bd 1251t100bd 1251t cc

(All of the builds above are there 2-3 times, CC versions have GS, pistol and focus versions and without cc have focus or sword versions)

~75bd Trailblaizer preplexity~75bd Trailblaizer nightmare~85bd Trailblaizer~75bd Viper preplexity~75bd Viper nightmare

Minstrel Pack (focus and sword versions)Minstrel DurabilityMinstrel MonkMinstrel Revenant

Harrier monk

DPS:GS Power chronoFocus Power chronoCondi dps chronoCondi Mirage (to be fair, I only have it saved but I have played it once)

Thanks. Now please bare with this poor ignorant moron, as I am trying to learn here; how often are each of those variants required in 1 instance, and what really constitutes the variant (1 piece armor? An offhand weapon swap?)Do all variants require being on 1 character? (I understand not wanting to switch characters within an instance).Looking at your list I can see why more than six could be warranted, but struggle imagining more than 10being needed for more than anything but an extreme level of convenience. (Eg. Swapping focus for sword).

And I get it, Arc Templates exist; and in sure Arenanet is kicking themselves for ever greenlighting it now. But the way they are implementing it will free up a lot of potential bag space for all, but would be a rediculous amount for so many possible variants. (This is ignoring legendary armor and runes, as I 100% believe THAT is where they really need to work this system out correctly as it is a big fail right now: once again, from someone with out legendary gear.)

Since you want to learn I hope you dont mind longer text to explain.Most of the builds in raids have 1000 toughness. That is important because some bosses are tanked by player with most toughness. On those bosses i slot it one toughness infusion (+5 toughness) if everyone else is on 1000

But there are some builds that cannot be on 1000t because of some traits that cannot be changed. Those are soulbeasts (1150, that reminds me I have one 1151 gear but switch by hand to other variants since it is not as common) and firebrand (1250, in 1 half of all raids). That is why I have 1251 gear, to get above firebrand so I get the agro.

But sometimes boss dont have a tank or tank changes randomly/has diferent criteria or someone else is tanking. In those cases I use 1000 toughness builds.

Some bosses require cc. If they do I take mesmer runes and paralization sigils to improve my CC. After all I am a support so If i cc for my teamates they can use their cc skills for damage which is much higher then what I would do alone when I didnt have that bonus cc. This also require change of gear since I lose 15 percent boon duration from rune of the pack. Sometimes I cannot take mesmer rune since rune of the pack is needed for fury, then it Is again diferent, both in traits and skills and in gear because now I have that 15 percent.

Some bosses hit rly hard so If i want be more safe I take more defense. If I die because of low defense gear my squad will take a huge loss since they will lose boons and so much more damage then my build with lower defense would provide.

On some bosses confusion and torment are so strong that even my small dps is incresed rapidly by focusing on those 2 conditions

And for boon duration. Sometimes fight involve alot of movement. Then players my miss some of my boons and so more boon duration is there to cover it. Also newer players might not have as good position so they might miss boons because they are still learning. More bd will help them (and the squad)

Also there are specific builds for certain special jobs i need to do (like previously mentioned escort cave) so there are builds for that too.

And finaly. Raids are in instance. After 1 kill we go to next boss. Based on setup diferent builds are required for diferent bosses. And instead of leaving instance, selecting new mesmer, loading to aerodrome, entering instance catching to group and making those small changes (like weapon or toughness infusion) i can click gear by hand when chacking a notepad near PC.

Also I would need to craft most of the sets 4 more times.

[Infusion.7149]

It's a convenience feature. If you want to store your builds in Notepad or elsewhere , more power to you.

I don't know why people compare it to GW1 templates, loading it from notepad is no different.

[Forsaken.7015]

To do this on a per character basis is literally an attack on the veteran players of this game, as they are the only ones who would need to purchase this multiple times ie: players that have multiple raid buids / wvw builds / fractal builds / open world builds. Taxing your most loyal player base is not a good buisiness model. I could find this easier to swollow if it was account wide but per character is ridiculous and a slap in the face to the veterans.

[Ashen.2907]

The reason you give for why they should not be monetized is exactly why I believe that they should. Monetizing something that people can easily skip means that no one is pressured into buying.

[SnakeWildlife.5623]

When put that way, they shouldn't be charging for account storage templates. The Character build templates and the equipment templates are what should be for purchase.

[castlemanic.3198]

These are my feelings on the matter:Build templates, yay!equipment tabs which holds gear like bag slots, YAY!even more predatory monetization, BOOO!

this was needlessly monetized, anet has been putting more needless monetization into this game and it really just makes me sad. I've been happy to put a lot of money into this game, but this increasingly blatant and needless cash grab is making me second guess my past decisions and is making me decide to spend my money elsewhere.

I'll still play, buy expansions even, but the gemstore is becoming ridiculous, and everyone who is complaining has a right to complain.

[Cameryn.5310]

@"castlemanic.3198" said:I'll still play, buy expansions even, but the gemstore is becoming ridiculous, and everyone who is complaining has a right to complain.

Do they, though?

You yourself specifically state you've been "happy to put a lot of money into the game" and yet you have a problem here because you're getting build templates in game for free (regardless of an addon that was working or not) and need to put a LITTLE money into having more of them?

Shared equipment slots. Mount skins. Custom equipment. Harvesting flair. These are all the same as extra build template slots. It's just one more convenience or aesthetic perk that they're charging for. There's nothing ridiculous about Anet wanting, again, to PAY EMPLOYEE SALARIES WHILE YOU ENJOY A GAME FREE OF MONTHLY CHARGES.

You said it yourself, this is "making me decide to spend my money elsewhere." So do it. Don't buy stuff. Anet isn't forcing you to. You can enjoy the entire game without spending a dime on it, except the base game and expansion(s). Nobody's twisting your arm.

[Super Hayes.6890]

I recently crossed over from PvE and did my first Raid with a training PuG. I gotta say they were super helpful but this thread has really explained a lot of stuff I just couldn't grasp from one run. I can see why a higher equipment template cap would be helpful. From what you guys are exchanging I can see that I need quite a few more sets to not be a burden to my squad. Thank you for the detail on what you are having to do to make it work. I will be referring to this thread as I start gearing up better.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@maultasche.4082 said:

@Cameryn.5310 said:You don't pay a monthly subscription fee. So how on earth do you THINK games work without subscriptions? Pixie dust? Black magic? Fervent invocation of deity?

How about content? If I understand correctly, Anet invested time and cash into a feature which was already there. Now they want money for it. They could've invested that time in new content (expansion, elite specs, raid, fractals, whatever!) and charged on that. People would've paid without a second thought.

i suggest you research a bit more on typical development costs for a refactor, its often one of the most expensive costs in development - green field is easy. There was huge demand for a refactor that would allow builds to be definable and reusable beyond the existing 3 builds and i applaud Anet for listening and investing. This is in fact valuable content. I will certainly pay some of my gold - and/or cash to expand on build abilities because i do not have to pay a sub fee each month.

[Leo G.4501]

@Neutra.6857 said:

@"Trise.2865" said:"People caught stealing cable for years angry about paying for cable"

Nope, people who had access to a nice remote control that they got for free from third party (and which the cable company had no issue) are now annoyed that they not only do they get a worse remote, but that in order for the remote to be remotely useful to them they have to pay for features they already had for free in the third party remote that they no longer get to use.

Did you at least pay the modders that made arcDPS for their labor? I bet you didn't lol

[castlemanic.3198]

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@"castlemanic.3198" said:I'll still play, buy expansions even, but the gemstore is becoming ridiculous, and everyone who is complaining has a right to complain.

Do they, though?

You yourself specifically state you've been "happy to put a lot of money into the game" and yet you have a problem here because you're getting build templates in game for free (regardless of an addon that was working or not) and need to put a LITTLE money into having more of them?

Shared equipment slots. Mount skins. Custom equipment. Harvesting flair. These are all the same as extra build template slots. It's just one more convenience or aesthetic perk that they're charging for. There's nothing ridiculous about Anet wanting, again, to PAY EMPLOYEE SALARIES WHILE YOU ENJOY A GAME FREE OF MONTHLY CHARGES.

You said it yourself, this is "making me decide to spend my money elsewhere." So do it. Don't buy stuff. Anet isn't forcing you to. You can enjoy the entire game without spending a dime on it, except the base game and expansion(s). Nobody's twisting your arm.

Ah fun, someone who's taking a quote out of context!

As is easily verifiable, what i said exactly was"even more predatory monetization, BOOO!""this was needlessly monetized, anet has been putting more needless monetization into this game and it really just makes me sad."

So take your faulty logic elsewhere, it's not a singular complaint about this one individual aspect of monetization, but rather anets seeming policy at trying to excessively monetize every front they can (rng mount licences and needlessly expensive select licenses, doubling up on black lion chests with the introduction of the knife tail gang, build templates, character bound equipment templates) and doing so in increasingly egregious and predatory ways.

Like I said and exactly like you note, I was happy to give arenanet money. I love the cosmetic things, I used to like that some of the conveniences exist, and I do want arenanet employees to get paid (ya know, by buying gems and expansions, like I have happily done), but arenanet are simply abusing their customers with what they're asking for in some cases. Build template monetization wasn't even the start of this horrible trend (mount licences are what got my attention, but the trend goes back to 2012 at launch with character bound bag slot expansions and Black Lion Chests). If you took out all of the abusive stuff in the store (including some of the stuff i've gotten and would give back in an instant), I'd happily start giving my money again. Because i'd feel respected.

Because it's not about arenanet 'twisting my arm' into buying things (in a sense, the rng stuff is absolutely predatory and prey on vulnerable people), it's about arenanet's money grubbing department not respecting its customer base. the devs who make the content and the stories don't deserve this mess, it's the people who let greed get in the way of common sense within arenanet that actually deserve the complaints and the anger. But we dont know who exactly is responsible for it so the devs as a whole get the flak. If I could individually pay the devs who create the content and make sure none of it went to the greedy people, I absolutely would. because the money grubbers don't deserve a dime when they pull stunts like this, like they have done for a while now and, if we're honest, from the games launch.

Just because people are noticing the issues now doesn't mean the problem didn't exist before. But we are noticing it now and our voices deserve to be heard when the devs do predatory stuff like this.

[Seera.5916]

@rabenpriester.7129 said:Another thing is: Why even have templates if getting another char slot is just the superior option? You get more bank space, 2 templates, a new blank slate, a new name, more fashion wars characters.

Because they may not have a SSD and that is a lot more downtime for the loading screens to switch characters. While for one instance the downtime might not be too bad. All that downtime adds up and it might mean that because a player had to swap characters more than before that a static group might only get through 6 wings instead of 7 one night.

[Ashantara.8731]

@rabenpriester.7129 said:Another thing is: Why even have templates if getting another char slot is just the superior option? You get more bank space, 2 templates, a new blank slate, a new name, more fashion wars characters.

And since legendary items - once stored on one character's template - can no longer be shared with other characters, it also makes the necessity for legendary gear obsolete, especially since you can now save different armor sets outside of your inventory and therefore save tons of space (and gold and hours of farming for legies, too). Yay! ;)

[Helicity.3416]

Build templates should have just been a nice bonus feature included with an expansion full of content.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Helicity.3416 said:Build templates should have just been a nice bonus feature included with an expansion full of content.

But then they realized that they can try to sell that one feature for way more than an expansion full of content. So, why bother?

[Obtena.7952]

@Vegeta.2563 said:Since you can store builds in the account build storage that can be shared via chat codes, anybody with a text editor can store as many builds as they want. This is why charging for account build storage slots is redundant with the build sharing functionalities.

I for one will not put a dime towards them as long as I can store them externally, or via guild message of the day.

So they shouldn't charge for a feature that you already know has a work around? That makes no sense. By your own admission, you can just use the work around. That's actually a reason TO charge for the feature; it's a convenience item ... just like MANY things in the GS.

@Vegeta.2563 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:

@Vegeta.2563 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:That only works for trait templates.

It doesn't work for gear templates, which is an important part of a build.

Correct, but equipment templates are separate and can't be shared anyway. So monetizing those is perfectly fine. Since the account build storage can share builds with other people.. needing to buy more slots is pointless since you can use a text file to store your builds and just copy a chat code to swap.

yeah but trait changing, was never that annoying... it's gear sets and runes..and ultimately no matter how many trait templates you have a chat code for... you're limited to 6, because you only have 6 gear templates.

I agree, switching between traits and utility skills was never really that much of a problem. However them charging for more slots for something that can be freely stored elsewhere is the point I'm trying to make.

That's the player's decision ... like you say, people don't need to use the feature if they don't want to, but that's not a reason for Anet to not charge for using it.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@RyuDragnier.9476 said:People use more than 3 builds for PvE on any class? That...blows my mind.

@RyuDragnier.9476 said:People use more than 3 builds for PvE on any class? That...blows my mind.

My chrono uses more then 30.5 stat combinations and many diferent runes, weapons, sigils and amount of boon duration under each of thise combinations

Why would a chrono need more than 30? I'm not sure what you play but if it's exclusively PvE, 1-2 builds will carry you through all the content. Not saying it's pointless to use that many builds, but you are definitely a prime candidate who'd spend the money on all these slots. Perhaps in Anet's eyes, they see it similar to the way I see it; most players don't need the templates, let alone 3. Anything outside of that is a sheer luxury, and if players want the luxury, they'll pay for it.

[Tukaram.8256]

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@Zin Dau.1749 said:People want to pay for predatory game monetization? That blows my mind?

1. 90% won't use more than 3/6 templates. Qed no revenue from them.
2. 10% won't pay for extra slots. Or they quit. Qed no revenue from them.

Great revenue source of $0. And bad rapport from hard core players.What makes this more predatory than buying bank tabs or bag slots, something that's been in the game since day 1?

I do not see the extra bank/bag slots as predatory. They give you some, and sell more - if you want them. When I buy character slots, the tend to come with 2 extra bag slots. I use per character and have a stack unused in my bank. They are optional. Same with the build slots.

A quality of life choice. Not a requirement.