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On roles and 'optimum' team comp.


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So, there's the perfect dream right? The dream that your group will have all of the following:

  • 25 might
  • fury
  • quickness
  • alacrity
  • spotter
  • sun spirit
  • frost spirit
  • empower allies
  • assassin's prescienceAnd more I'm sure I forgot.

So what I'd like to do in this thread is break down WHY the specific meta builds are what they are.

So, a druid covers lots of those above points. If your team has no druid, then you need someone else to cover might, and heals, and unique buffs.

So, which classes can do what jobs? We all know what the meta is. But I want to figure out why.

Are there other classes that can stack 25 might? Why don't we use them for that? Are there other quickness classes? Other alacrity? Other healers? Are there builds that scratch a couple itches, but won't get used because, say, druid is too good? Is it a different class that's too good?

I want to wrap my head around the team comp. And why we pick which classes, in what builds...?

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Druid is meh, at least in 5-man comps. Still fine bringing one on raids though.

Spotter could be replaced by the 100 precision/70 Ferocity food.

Soulbeasts can bring spirits as well - they're Ranger skills.

Firebrand + Renegade can easily maintain permanent 25 might, Fury, Alacrity, Regeneration and Quickness for 5 people, and Renegades can provide a raid group's alacrity needs. Either one of them can also go healer. Renegades are preferred, as Firebrands put out more damage than a Renegade, but Healer FB is much safer.

Empower Allies is good, but not really needed. An all-power damage party benefits from it the most. With the recent Tactics rework, might see it becoming meta again, but a power Berserker's damage bringing banners easily offsets that extra 500 power. Strength/Discipline/Berserker traitlines are too good to replace one. Maybe go core Warrior and use Phalanx Strength as well if your group of five can't generate permanent 25 might and/or need more breakbar damage.

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Common pug strat has:2 chronos(quickness, soi, some boons and alacrity)Warrior (banners)Druid (might, other boons, spotter, healing and spirits)Sometimes off healer (heals and boons)Dps players.

Other common squad comp is:Chrono (quickness, soi and some boons)Alacrity renegade (alacrity, some boons, AP, soul cleave summit)Quickbrand (quickness, other boons)Druid( heal, spirits, might, boons, spotter and healing)Warrior(banners)Dps

Many classes can stack might or heal, but druid has alot of other cool stuff, thats why its taken.However a bit better groups can actually change the squad comps with dps class choises. Lets take xera for example:Every dps player plays power chrono which means that dps classes covers quickness so quickbrand or support chrono is not needed. This comp would look like this:1 druid (tank and usual druid stuff)Warrior (usual warrior stuff)Alacrity renegade (alacrity + other rene stuff)Power chronos (quickness and dps)

At some bosses players also drop druid out and takes dps soulbeast instead, as it can still bring spotter and spirits.There is many other squad compositions aswell that are meta or atleast works, like boon thief comp but i think yoy got the point already.

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The reason I'm looking at getting details like the above (thanks for that @sokeenoppa.5384 and @"borgs.6103") is because I'm trying to figure which classes can take jobs that are already 'covered'.

For example. If I make a banner warrior keep up 25 might, and fury on the group, is this ever useful? Or is it that, because druids exist, there's no point to ever build a warrior like that?

Also... If I showed up with said warrior build, is there some trait I can just point at my druid and say, "take x instead of Grace of the Land, I've got might covered." and what are the odds folks will just say, 'yeah, OK, well take a warrior for might. Now that we know we don't need a druid, is there someone here who wants to heal whose class can't output might by itself?'

Im trying to figure out what, if any, alternative team comps exist.

We know that alacrity and quickness are pretty restricted... But are the other roles as locked down? And if so, why? If not, what other builds can we use to get around the standard supports, and open the door for say, a warrior support build?

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:For example. If I make a banner warrior keep up 25 might, and fury on the group, is this ever useful? Or is it that, because druids exist, there's no point to ever build a warrior like that?Druid covers might for the whole 10-man squad. Warrior supplies might for 5-man group. That's why originally, before phalanx strength nerf and Grace of the land changes you used two warriors. Obviously, having one build do the work of two others is better - role compression is quite important.This is for raids, though. Fractals are 5-man, so this consideration is not important there.

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:The reason I'm looking at getting details like the above (thanks for that @sokeenoppa.5384 and @"borgs.6103") is because I'm trying to figure which classes can take jobs that are already 'covered'.

For example. If I make a banner warrior keep up 25 might, and fury on the group, is this ever useful? Or is it that, because druids exist, there's no point to ever build a warrior like that?

Also... If I showed up with said warrior build, is there some trait I can just point at my druid and say, "take x instead of Grace of the Land, I've got might covered." and what are the odds folks will just say, 'yeah, OK, well take a warrior for might. Now that we know we don't need a druid, is there someone here who wants to heal whose class can't output might by itself?'

Im trying to figure out what, if any, alternative team comps exist.

We know that alacrity and quickness are pretty restricted... But are the other roles as locked down? And if so, why? If not, what other builds can we use to get around the standard supports, and open the door for say, a warrior support build?

It really depends on what end-game PVE you're doing. Right now, some group compositions perform way better on fotms than raids. In your example, the druid's better on raids because it covers might and spirit buffs for the whole group, and spotter, fury, protection and swiftness for the sub-group. Bring that to fotms where the group's limited to 5 slots the druid's might coverage doesn't matter.

Alternate team comps exists. It's not as if you'll automatically fail if you don't follow the meta. Multiple sources of boons, especially Might and Fury provide more leniency for rotations, positioning and dealing damage. Example - you can party a support tempest with FB+Rene and get the important boons covered. Granted an ele would be better off as a DPS than the FB/Rene, it would still achieve very good results. Though I wouldn't feel comfortable with this set-up on fractals.

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:The reason I'm looking at getting details like the above (thanks for that @sokeenoppa.5384 and @"borgs.6103") is because I'm trying to figure which classes can take jobs that are already 'covered'.

For example. If I make a banner warrior keep up 25 might, and fury on the group, is this ever useful? Or is it that, because druids exist, there's no point to ever build a warrior like that?

Also... If I showed up with said warrior build, is there some trait I can just point at my druid and say, "take x instead of Grace of the Land, I've got might covered." and what are the odds folks will just say, 'yeah, OK, well take a warrior for might. Now that we know we don't need a druid, is there someone here who wants to heal whose class can't output might by itself?'

Im trying to figure out what, if any, alternative team comps exist.

We know that alacrity and quickness are pretty restricted... But are the other roles as locked down? And if so, why? If not, what other builds can we use to get around the standard supports, and open the door for say, a warrior support build?

-Alacrity comes from chrono(5man) or alacrity renegade(10man)-quickness comes from quickbrand(5man), chrono(5man) OR stacking dragonhunters or power chronos.Thats basics of quickness.

Might can come from many classes but pugs favor druid because healer is needed for raids and this one specific healer will bring so much. It has:spotter, spirits, heals, fury, regen, vigor, might and some skills that gives utility for pug strats like entangle.If your squad is running with two healers and one of them is a druid, second one can any healer.

In rare scenario you can drop druid out tho. For example at w2 first boss slothasor you can use:Sub1:1power soulbeast, 1alacrity heal renegade and 3 dragonhunters.Sub2:1 boon chrono, 1 might renegade, 1 banner warrior and 2 dragonhunters.

^with that comp all the boons are covered, even without a druid. However that composition is for an HC play and soulbeast should be swapped to heal druid in more casual runs.

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Once boons are settled, the next step is usually to fill it in with other roles eg. dps classes that can fully optimize it (classes that can deals good damage). The more available spots open; the better. Hence meta players tend to squeeze boons duty into few, to have more spots open.

Its possible for to spread it out, each to fill a boon/role and the set up's efficiency is always open for debate. Pros and cons.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:For example. If I make a banner warrior keep up 25 might, and fury on the group, is this ever useful? Or is it that, because druids exist, there's no point to ever build a warrior like that?Druid covers might for the whole 10-man squad. Warrior supplies might for 5-man group. That's why originally, before phalanx strength nerf and Grace of the land changes you used
two
warriors. Obviously, having one build do the work of two others is better - role compression is quite important.This is for raids, though. Fractals are 5-man, so this consideration is not important there.

How over capped is druid on 25 might?

Why won't a tactics warrior spill might stacks over if the 5 in his subgroup are full? (is the just something the engine doesn't do?)

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:For example. If I make a banner warrior keep up 25 might, and fury on the group, is this ever useful? Or is it that, because druids exist, there's no point to ever build a warrior like that?Druid covers might for the whole 10-man squad. Warrior supplies might for 5-man group. That's why originally, before phalanx strength nerf and Grace of the land changes you used
two
warriors. Obviously, having one build do the work of two others is better - role compression is quite important.This is for raids, though. Fractals are 5-man, so this consideration is not important there.

How over capped is druid on 25 might?On old Magi builds, it might have been a struggle to keep the cap up (depending on you skill), but on harriers keeping the whole squad capped is generally not a problem.

Why won't a tactics warrior spill might stacks over if the 5 in his subgroup are full? (is the just something the engine doesn't do?)Boons do not work that way. The engine doesn't "spill" overcapped boons on other players, they are just wasted.
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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:For example. If I make a banner warrior keep up 25 might, and fury on the group, is this ever useful? Or is it that, because druids exist, there's no point to ever build a warrior like that?Druid covers might for the whole 10-man squad. Warrior supplies might for 5-man group. That's why originally, before phalanx strength nerf and Grace of the land changes you used
two
warriors. Obviously, having one build do the work of two others is better - role compression is quite important.This is for raids, though. Fractals are 5-man, so this consideration is not important there.

How over capped is druid on 25 might?

Why won't a tactics warrior spill might stacks over if the 5 in his subgroup are full? (is the just something the engine doesn't do?)

Might wont work like that. And most of the time its pretty pointless to find replacement for druid might as squad takes druid 90% of the time anyways, not only coz of might but coz of all the other nice things that it brings.

Edit: is druid must to complete raids? Ofc not, all kinds of non optimal squad comps can clear most nosses.

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So, it seems as though druid's ability to hit all 10 players with might is too strong.

If druid could might only 5 players, what other classes can produce enough might?

I'm curious because I'm trying to figure out if the overwhelming amount of support, boons, and unique buffs provided by druid was intended.

Like... I'm going to make my boonbot banner warrior. It'll be fun, especially every fractal I play that's druid-free.

It just seems that, what would otherwise be a really functional system of various classes all designed to swap and overlap to provide raid bonuses... Has been neutered by the overperformance of one class as far back as HoT launch.

Seems to me like, they need to cut down druid's unique buffs, (or give other versions of them to other classes) and they need to nerf its might application to 5 people. Then they need to introduce alacrity and quickness to one new class each. Do that, and we'll be able to shuffle the meta into a ton of varying shapes.

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:So, it seems as though druid's ability to hit all 10 players with might is too strong.

If druid could might only 5 players, what other classes can produce enough might?

I'm curious because I'm trying to figure out if the overwhelming amount of support, boons, and unique buffs provided by druid was intended.

Like... I'm going to make my boonbot banner warrior. It'll be fun, especially every fractal I play that's druid-free.

It just seems that, what would otherwise be a really functional system of various classes all designed to swap and overlap to provide raid bonuses... Has been neutered by the overperformance of one class as far back as HoT launch.

Seems to me like, they need to cut down druid's unique buffs, (or give other versions of them to other classes) and they need to nerf its might application to 5 people. Then they need to introduce alacrity and quickness to one new class each. Do that, and we'll be able to shuffle the meta into a ton of varying shapes.

Herald can provide 25 might to 10 players in real raid too. Same as tempest (i think).

Reason why everyone take druid are spirits. Also many strategies vere defised when there was no option so they require druid. Top tier players use druid because of spirits and newer players use druid because they dont want to /cannot devise new strategies with diferent healer in mind

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So... Spirits are too strong?

Seems like they need buffs of that sort to be balanced out. Shouldn't multiple classes have access to a 'frost spirit'? Especially if those buffs can't overlap? Like... 'we already have thief's imaginary 'surprise strike' for 10% damage.... And we aren't runing any condi, so you can swap off your druid.'

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Seems to me like, they need to cut down druid's unique buffs, (or give other versions of them to other classes) and they need to nerf its might application to 5 people. Then they need to introduce alacrity and quickness to one new class each. Do that, and we'll be able to shuffle the meta into a ton of varying shapes.And when they're at it, let's take away banners from warrior as well. You know, that thing that gave warrior a guaranteed spot in raid meta since raids launched till now.

(i mean if you're aiming at spirits, you do have to go the whole distance, and not just stop halfway)

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Hey now. Don't jump the shark. I didn't say 'remove any reason to take druid.' I rather specifically meant 'make reasons for other classes to be taken'.

That basically can't mean 'take a class that is currently taken for only one thing, and debuff it.'

So.... If you can agree that every raid always wants a druid... And you can also agree that, it would be nice if other classes could do a druids job.... Then we pretty much totally agree.

I don't know what form a nerf should take. But if a druid is such a no brainer that there's always at least one... Maybe it's nerf time? I got suggestions. But there's a reason I don't do balance for Anet 40 hours a week.

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As some have said earlier, the reason why Druid is pretty much irreplaceable (almost) in raid squads is the fact that they can provide 25 Might, class-specific offensive buffs, as well as healing to all 10 players, among other things. These are very important squad considerations condensed into a single player (i.e. very efficient).

This is so good because:

  • Grace of the Land is 10-target Might
  • Spirit bonuses are 10-target
  • Unlike 5-target based boon-share, 5-target healing will leak to the other subgroup, provided your subgroup is topped-off, making a single Druid capable of healing the entire squad.

Also mentioned above, other classes can provide some of these (Tempest, Herald, Warrior(?) for 25 Might to entire squad, Soulbeast for spirits, other solo-healers, etc.), but almost always aren't as efficient as just bringing a Druid.

Some Snowcrows meta compositions actually don't include Druid if they can find a way to provide what the Druid provides more efficiently.Their meta Slothasor composition currently has:

  • Two Alacrity Renegades (one for healing and Alacrity, one to top off Might), these are brought for superior CC
  • DPS Soulbeast for spirits, as healing and Might are already covered by the Renegades

Their meta MO composition currently has:

  • Boon Thief (healing, 10-target all boons except Alacrity)
  • DPS Soulbeast for spirits, as healing and Might are already covered by the Boon Thief

tldr, it's all about efficiency and role condensation. A lot of classes can provide the unique combinations of boons/buffs required for comfortable raid clears, but some classes (such as Druid or Boon Thief) can do it in a much more efficient manner.

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One thing to note, once again:

Any negative change to support availability, no matter in what way, will make the raid composition more restrictive.

One of the reasons why having druid provide 10 man might/fury/spirits is good is: it allows for other supports to tag along. Same as with warrior banners which affect 10 players.

The solution is not to remove the ability to provide buffs to 10 people (aka an entire raid squad), it is to allow MORE classes to provide 10 people support as to open up raid spots (which the devs have been implementing more and more, see renegade 10 man alacrity and similar deisgn decisions. Showing that the devs understand this issue).

Back during HoT the raid composition was:

  • 2 chronos
  • 2 druids
  • 2 warriors
  • 4 dps

The reason was simple: boons were 5 mann capped, same as banners. Pretty much all raid meta improvement came from making abilities and boons reach 10 people, freeing up slots. If you change druid boons or spirits to 5 people, the net result would not be less druids in raids, it would be more. Or another class takes the druids spot (unlikely currently) and druid becomes useless.

If you want to replace druid in raids, there is 2 ways to do it:

  • nerf the class until it becomes useless
  • improve another class far enough that it completely replaces druid
  • improve another class composition to be of equal or similar use as druid+x (similar to how Firebrigade replaced druid+chrono in fractals)
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To be honest I think the only class that any raid kinda NEED to have atm is banner warrior. Any other class can be replaced with a minor efficientcy drop.Chrono <>FB+renDruid<>FB+ren+SB or temp+chrono+SB or temp+FB+ren+SB or DH stacking+ren+SB

War or the other hand is hard to replace, and the banners are by no means the only reason to this. Think of it this way, its a dps spec that do insane cc and bring support in banners.

I can understand why you feel like creating a banner/might giving war build after the last patch. And you can, and it might even be pretty ok. The main problem is not that is "DONT work", it will. The main problem is that it ½ way require the rest of the squad to be build around it. Atm groups are mainly build around either 2*chrono+druid+second healer or chrono+ren+FB+druid.

If you want to make a might war and have a group that are cool with changing/building around it. Super. But you might have a hard time in a pug.

A group comp with might war could be something like:

might/fury/banner war (dont forget to bring cc)heal FB (quickness+ might and fury for other group)AlaRenchrono (or DpsFB)SB (dps but with spirits)5*DPS

Not quite a speed clear squad, but for kills you by no means need a speed clear group and if your group enjoy this settup, go for it

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:I do love the idea of buffing other support to be able to handle raids. Seems to me that the only fallout from this would be overpowering zergs in WvW which just screams for split skill and trait action.

Something to note for, even tho druid is a king of supports atm for optimised/hc groups, many groups would do better without one. Ill kinda start a new topic now, sorry about it. Players say that raids are too hard, thats usually not true, raids arent hard, kill strats are. If group of semi new raider keeps wiping at boss with standard 1 druid, 1 heal, 1 warrior, 2 chronos and deeps groups, they would do alot better if they replace druid.If you replace druid with an other heavy healer like tempest they would still have 25 stacks of might, 25 stacks vulnerability on boss and more or less around same amount of other buffs that druid bring. Only thing that they would lose is 7%dmg from frost spirit. However for a bad group that 7%means nothing, with 2 heavy healers instead of druid they can easily cheese many bosses fromw1-w4Edit: after all druid is the worst healer.

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Which begs the question. Is the meta stale? Or is it the perception of the meta that's stale?

Like, can we just plow ahead with new builds and rewrite the meta? Cause it seems like we'll get beaten back by the gatekeepers of tradition.

Like, I didn't know frost spirit was reduced to 7% down from 10... Seems like the devs are trying to correct the problem.

So, I guess we just need a few supports upgraded to 10 man influence, and a few more classes that can do quickness and alacrity.

I dream of a world where I can see a class's potential, make a build (like the new might warrior using the tactics line.) and join a squad, and be able to tell them which roles I've got covered and it's all good. Folks would be able to dust off various builds, and use them. Folks wouldn't look at builds like a heal thief and go, "yeah, so, you can heal OK and all... But this isn't one of the 3 fights where you're good.... So, get out." I'd imagine a world where other players can simply swap a trait here or there... Or swap characters to something they'd rather play.

We've all heard the expression 'chrono jail'. Or 'druid jail' or 'banner jail' because lots of the players who run these builds are tired of playing them, because they are ALWAYS needed. And so, I want to let these players out of jail. Let other classes cover thier jobs, and shuffle the meta.

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@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:Which begs the question. Is the meta stale? Or is it the perception of the meta that's stale?

Like, can we just plow ahead with new builds and rewrite the meta? Cause it seems like we'll get beaten back by the gatekeepers of tradition.

Like, I didn't know frost spirit was reduced to 7% down from 10... Seems like the devs are trying to correct the problem.

So, I guess we just need a few supports upgraded to 10 man influence, and a few more classes that can do quickness and alacrity.

I dream of a world where I can see a class's potential, make a build (like the new might warrior using the tactics line.) and join a squad, and be able to tell them which roles I've got covered and it's all good. Folks would be able to dust off various builds, and use them. Folks wouldn't look at builds like a heal thief and go, "yeah, so, you can heal OK and all... But this isn't one of the 3 fights where you're good.... So, get out." I'd imagine a world where other players can simply swap a trait here or there... Or swap characters to something they'd rather play.

We've all heard the expression 'chrono jail'. Or 'druid jail' or 'banner jail' because lots of the players who run these builds are tired of playing them, because they are ALWAYS needed. And so, I want to let these players out of jail. Let other classes cover thier jobs, and shuffle the meta.

Atm we have tho most healthy meta that this game has ever seen. Atm meta is more or less stale, some stuff still might change coz of last patch but meta is basically math and many ppl have done that math. One thing about meta tho, i have been raiding a long time now and i think that i have never seen meta squads in LFG.

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@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:Hey now. Don't jump the shark. I didn't say 'remove any reason to take druid.' I rather specifically meant 'make reasons for other classes to be taken'.

That basically can't mean 'take a class that is currently taken for only one thing, and debuff it.'But that's what you suggest doing to druid. It's not like they are being taken for healing (they are currently probably the worst healer of several options), and for might there are also other options.

So.... If you can agree that every raid always wants a druid... And you can also agree that, it would be nice if other classes could do a druids job.... Then we pretty much totally agree.Every raid also wants a warrior. And i am sure that many other classes would want to be in warrior's spot.

I don't know what form a nerf should take. But if a druid is such a no brainer that there's always at least one...There's not always a druid, there are comps without them nowadays. It's mostly due to inertia now anyway. Warrior however is pretty much a staple.

So if you don;t like the druid's position in meta, and think that it is a reason for nerf, you definitely should start with warrior first.

Not saying that you need to do that (i was pretty much against "balancing support options" via continuously hitting chrono with a nerf bat and checking if it still moves, and i always thought that just making a good alternative would be better, for example), but that's the logical conclusion to your complains.

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