Anti-Champion

[EMPI.4013]

Was thinking, is Bangar being set up to be an anti-champion, as in being the opposite of the pc? Which would mean is there going to be an anti-pact? If Jormag is the ed of persuasion and is persuading Bangar, it would be kind of opposite to the PC's story with persuading/teaching aurene. I guess what I'm getting at is that is this whole saga going to be the same as the current story but just in reverse? (If you know what I mean) thoughts?

[perilisk.1874]

Depends on what you mean by Pact. It seems pretty obvious that he will be working with the Norn. However, it will be hard to exploit the whole Charr supremacy angle (by Bangar or the writers, take your pick) if it's a union of different races. Bangar is more focused on unifying the Charr internally, anyway. Charr respect Norn, for whatever reason, more than mice, rats, and talking shrubs. Though you could find the same weird incongruity in historical alliances between real world... uh, racist/nationalist political movements that will just get turned into "kitten"s, probably.

Of course, Jormag is the real brains here, just like Mordremoth was with Scarlet. Jormag might well find that Charr and Norn are not sufficient, and court malcontents and revolutionaries among all the races.

I do think they are intentionally creating parallels between the Bangar/Jormag relationship and the PC/Aurene relationship, which does mean that, as an antagonist, Bangar would be the mirror of the PC (and people have definitely requested that sort of antagonist, even here on the forums). I think it also means that, as much as Bangar wants to have "his own dragon", Jormag also wants its own "Pact Commander". Of course, neither Jormag nor Bangar actually understand the relationship between the PC and Aurene; the traits that make them evil characters (in particular, thinking of others/relationships as tools to use) also blind them to the way good characters think and feel, which will likely cause their downfalls (Bangar in particular).

[ugrakarma.9416]

i find contraditory someone so clever like Bangar come to think hes candle a Elder Dragon, unless ofc hes under some "supernatural" influence like Jormag itself whispering stuff. Anyway like the bet i made past ago, theres a bit of Admiral Proudmoore inspiration on this plot. When things seems settled up(Orcs find a new home and doesnt are interested in war), hes goes on "we dont forgive theses scrubs" mode and waged war.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

That was pretty much what ArenaNet tried to do with Scarlet. Uniting a bunch of evil factions and (unintentionally) fighting for the Elder Dragons. So I hope not.

[perilisk.1874]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:That was pretty much what ArenaNet tried to do with Scarlet. Uniting a bunch of evil factions and (unintentionally) fighting for the Elder Dragons. So I hope not.

Maybe they'll prove that Scarlet could have conceptually worked, with better writing? Anyway, I don't think Bangar is going to smoosh together random factions to make fancy glowy versions. I don't think he has much leeway to bring non-Charr under his banner, excluding the Sons of Svanir (because Jormag) and maybe the Centaurs (because screw humans, and also because trailer). Ogres are no friend to Charr, skritt are comic relief and are also literal mice. Kodan and Quaggan aren't making nice with any friends of Jormag. Grawl Jormag-worshippers, maybe.

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"perilisk.1874" said:Maybe they'll prove that Scarlet could have conceptually worked, with better writing? Anyway, I don't think Bangar is going to smoosh together random factions to make fancy glowy versions. I don't think he has much leeway to bring non-Charr under his banner, excluding the Sons of Svanir (because Jormag) and maybe the Centaurs (because screw humans, and also because trailer). Ogres are no friend to Charr, skritt are comic relief and are also literal mice. Kodan and Quaggan aren't making nice with any friends of Jormag. Grawl Jormag-worshippers, maybe.

i doubt Scarlet will worked, theres a big difference between a battlefield Veteran who is imperator for years, and plant girl making bad stuff because "im mad and like laughter". its like compare Saddam Hussein or Mao Tse Tung with one of these random teenagers that get mad and do mass-shoot ppl.

[thepenmonster.3621]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:one of these random teenagers that get mad and do mass-shoot ppl.

Sorry to go all Um Ackchyually at you but, with few exceptions, mass murderers have always been grown-assed men.

[Fenom.9457]

@"perilisk.1874" said:Depends on what you mean by Pact. It seems pretty obvious that he will be working with the Norn. However, it will be hard to exploit the whole Charr supremacy angle (by Bangar or the writers, take your pick) if it's a union of different races. Bangar is more focused on unifying the Charr internally, anyway. Charr respect Norn, for whatever reason, more than mice, rats, and talking shrubs. Though you could find the same weird incongruity in historical alliances between real world... uh, racist/nationalist political movements that will just get turned into "kitten"s, probably.

Of course, Jormag is the real brains here, just like Mordremoth was with Scarlet. Jormag might well find that Charr and Norn are not sufficient, and court malcontents and revolutionaries among all the races.

I do think they are intentionally creating parallels between the Bangar/Jormag relationship and the PC/Aurene relationship, which does mean that, as an antagonist, Bangar would be the mirror of the PC (and people have definitely requested that sort of antagonist, even here on the forums). I think it also means that, as much as Bangar wants to have "his own dragon", Jormag also wants its own "Pact Commander". Of course, neither Jormag nor Bangar actually understand the relationship between the PC and Aurene; the traits that make them evil characters (in particular, thinking of others/relationships as tools to use) also blind them to the way good characters think and feel, which will likely cause their downfalls (Bangar in particular).

Actually this is a really cool angle that if they don’t take here (though I think they will), I hope they do it with some ED - one of them looks at what’s happening and how after so many thousands of years they’re being killed so quickly, and puts together that having a singular head champion that’s imbued with power but able to think for itself and gain even more allies is key

[Revolution.5409]

Bangar and Jormag have not yet met, it seems to me early to talk about pararelisms. We do not know if Jormag centers anything from the beginning of the story or if Bangar will unleash the fury of the dragon.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@"perilisk.1874" said:Maybe they'll prove that Scarlet could have conceptually worked, with better writing? Anyway, I don't think Bangar is going to smoosh together random factions to make fancy glowy versions. I don't think he has much leeway to bring non-Charr under his banner, excluding the Sons of Svanir (because Jormag) and maybe the Centaurs (because screw humans, and also because trailer). Ogres are no friend to Charr, skritt are comic relief and are also literal mice. Kodan and Quaggan aren't making nice with any friends of Jormag. Grawl Jormag-worshippers, maybe.

i doubt Scarlet will worked, theres a big difference between a battlefield Veteran who is imperator for years, and plant girl making bad stuff because "im mad and like laughter". its like compare Saddam Hussein or Mao Tse Tung with one of these random teenagers that get mad and do mass-shoot ppl.

I mean, arguably it did work. A lot of folks loved the S1 finale and there were some folks who liked the character (not as much as Anet themselves mind you). It's mostly the lore and story fans who disliked her, tbh. The concept 100% worked, but the writing for her was meh and came out of nowhere with too many inexplicable plugins. Would have made more sense, imo, if they used the Sinister Triad as the foundation for her alliances. Otherwise the only alliances to make sense would be the dredge (not Flame), Aetherblades, and Nightmare Court (not krait).

[Tyson.5160]

I remember finishing season 1 and thinking to myself, why did Scarlet gather all these random factions together to attack other random factions in Tyria. My only conclusion and I was hoping for some answers in Season 2, and some were given. My thought was, perhaps Mordremoth wanted the races of Tyria to be weakened before he invaded by causing a lot of in fighting by a lot of the major factions that would cause resistance and kill each other off. I was hoping that would be explained in Season 2 or HoT, but it never came up.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Scarlet needed certain tech/magic from different groups. She got sonic tech to search for ley lines from the dredge (sadly, retcons added in S2 meant that the alliance itself was unnecessary as in S1, she got dredge tech by giving them their desired fire magic, while in S2 it's stated she's been doing black market dealings with dredge to make steam creatures); she wanted to plant a puppet in the Captain's Council (seemingly predicting that LA would be a target of her need long before finding the ley line hub there?) and needed a military force for full-scale assault, both she got via Aetherblades; and she needed a powerful toxin to assist said full-scale assault that she got via combining sylvari magic with krait magic.

Basically, everything she did was in preparation for a prediction that she'd need to assault Lion's Arch / a major settlement. In poor writing though, the energy probes which told her where to attack in all of Central and Northern Tyria, were created after she began preparing an attack on LA.