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People HATE my class! Why?


birdboy.6509

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Perhaps Next E-spec thief will get a spec thats built around group play, but then won't thieves kitten that they can't solo anyone and anything?

What are you on about? We already can't solo anything and anyone. Might as well give us a support e-spec then since we can't really 1v1 anymore. +1 and decapping with shortbow#5 isn't really a support. At this point i'd rather put on some cleric amulet and pretend i'm a FB/Tempest healer since we can't do anythin anyway.

Idk about other things u've mentioned.. but i've never experienced on any of other classes the "you are not welcome to wvw" feeling. Some classes are selfish yes but still they contribute to team effort. Thief tho.. contributes to nothing.

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@"Onlysaneman.9612" said:So, as somebody who generally does not like thieves (among a few other classes) I feel like I should take a shot at giving my answer for whatever help or satisfaction that might be to OP. Some general context and notes before I get into it. 1) I play warrior almost exclusively for pvp modes, but I've been doing it long enough that I feel I generally have a good grasp of the other professions. 2) I haven't played sPvP in a long time and stick mostly to WvW (where thief roamers are significantly more obnoxious) but I'll try to keep my answer to those areas largely applicable to both. 3) This is all just based on my general personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt. And, finally, 4) I don't have anything personally against thief players, or the players of other classes I don't like. Nor do I necessarily feel they're overpowered or need any sort of nerf (although there are maybe certain things I wish would be tweaked).

The short of it is just that I don't generally find thieves fun to fight against. When fighting most classes- even when a given class or build is overtuned- there's a certain amount of back and forth. Both sides will be clearly visible with a few tools for any given purpose (movement, stunbreak, invuln, CC, so on), and attacks will involve some sort of significant tell or animation. If I get hit by a ranger's Maul, it's because either they've managed to exhaust my other defenses, locked me down with a CC first, or I failed to dodge it despite seeing it coming. Same with a holo burst, or to some degree necro marks or DH traps. I may take some amount of damage from auto attacks or other minor sources not really feasible to or worth dodging, but if I die it's going to be mainly because I made obvious mistakes and ate too many big attacks. As far as defenses go, sure, an engi or ranger might stop a good Bull's Charge into burst combo with an invuln, but at least that's a defense that's gone for a good while (likely the rest of the fight). Ultimately, unless one side FAR outclasses the other or is somehow a natural counter, fights between most classes will at least feel like both parties got some good hits in. That FEELS good, and leads to a lot less frustration about the outcome of any given fight. And I know it's maybe not entirely fair, but how a game FEELS to play does matter- we're here to have fun after all.

That brings me to thief. You're right, thief does have a different playstyle from most of the classes in this game. Thief attacks are, as you describe, fast and high burst. More important than just being -fast-, however, is that there's no clear single burst to dodge. Thief spikes involve either an attack from stealth (which by definition does not have a clear tell) or a series of quick, high-damage attacks covered by blind or daze before moving back out of range of counter-attacks. Neither these attacks nor the steal/shadowshot/whatever else is typically telegraphed to the degree that other classes' attacks are. I want to point out that, whether thief burst is actually strong in any given meta, this is not particularly fun or satisfying to fight against. Dodging a Maul or a CC meant to set up a Maul feels good, like you've just negated a major offensive tool and can now take advantage and pressure them back. Dodging away from half an auto chain or a heartseeker feels like... kind of a waste of a dodge, even if ultimately the damage negated was worth it. Defensively, thief has kind of the same problem. Thief doesn't have a lot of big defenses. Low armor, low health, not much as far as invulns. So, to compensate they have lots of little bite sized defenses. More dodges. Short blinds. Fast interrupts. And between that they have ways of removing themselves from danger while they wait for those to become available again- stealth skills and teleports. If I manage to hit a DD with Bull's Charge, and they use Bandit's Defense to protect themselves from the followup burst, then they'll have it ready again BEFORE the attack that forced them to use it. Despite landing a key part of any warrior's setup, it doesn't actually feel like I've accomplished anything (just as an example). Whereas if they catch me with a good combo and force an Endure Pain, that skill is done for the next minute while they'll probably be able to burst again in a few seconds.

Again, I'm not saying thieves are overpowered, or that there isn't any kind of counter play to what they can do. They NEED all of those tools to be even remotely viable. I'm just trying to expand on your point. If somebody does pvp because they like the combat system and want good fights, it would then be expected that they'd dislike those classes that they don't think provide good fights. This is, I expect, why thieves (and mesmers, who I usually feel similarly about) get a lot of particular hate on here. Both share the tendency towards lots of small, short defenses and being able to do lots of damage without landing singular, clearly telegraphed attacks. When fighting a thief, it often feels like I just have to hope they make a mistake while doing what I can to keep myself alive in the meantime, and winning a fight through one "lucky" hit that doesn't get dodged feels a lot less satisfying to me than seeing an eviscerate coming and catching it with Full Counter or a Bull's Charge into followup burst. There's probably other aspects to it- in WvW they can run away forever, and in sPvP their primary purpose has always been to move around the map, decap, and +1 (which, if you were so inclined, could fairly or not be read as "jump in and ruin what was shaping up to be a good fight"). But as I said, I've been away from sPvP for a bit, so I'll leave commenting on that to others.

For those who dont read wall of texts;

It is worth the read, even if you may not agree with this person. We need more thought-out, cool-headed comments like this that try to see the topic from both sides of the argument.


I agree that my issue with dealing with thieves, mesmers and holos are because of the poor tell they often come with, as well as their ability to engage/disengage from just about any fight, and fight only on their terms. It often feels that killing them is usually due to over commitment on their part, or big mistake, or overestimation of themselves, rather than my ability as a player to finish them off.It just doesnt feel good to be constantly blinded, CCed, cant move (torment), cant use abilities (confusion), and then having very small windows of opportunity to strike back. When I'm fighting a warrior/guardian/ele/ranger/necro/revs I know whats coming at me and when, I know I can time my abilities and how to budget my dodges/stunbreakers/condi cleanses, but cant say the same about thieves, mesmers, holos.

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@DeadlySynz.3471 said:Stealth needs a huge kick in the shins. As some have suggested in the past (and I agree with), if one is hit in stealth, they are instantly downed. Or, if you are in combat, you cannot stealth. Right now, there is no punishment or penalty for stealth.

While I'm willing to debate reasonable suggestions for balancing the stealth mechanic, let's not go that far.

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stealth of thief is not a problem, it's the full map teleport, look like a hack, thiefs can just leave/back to the fight without being punished, they need to make shadowstep and infiltrator arrow cost 8-10 initiative points, also remove the return from shadowsteps, now if they jump on someone they have to fight

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@SeikeNz.3526 said:stealth of thief is not a problem, it's the full map teleport, look like a hack, thiefs can just leave/back to the fight without being punished, they need to make shadowstep and infiltrator arrow cost 8-10 initiative points, also remove the return from shadowsteps, now if they jump on someone they have to fight

Yeah no this is a ridiculously bad idea, let's make one infiltrator arrow use up so much on the thiefs ini that it cannot even preform any weapon skill after but a auto attack lmao seeing as ini is its global resource and maxed at 12 without trickery. So much wow factor in the negative bias against thief in this community lol.

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