[Merged] Oh cool you must buy more build slots

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@RyuDragnier.9476 said:People use more than 3 builds for PvE on any class? That...blows my mind.

@RyuDragnier.9476 said:People use more than 3 builds for PvE on any class? That...blows my mind.

My chrono uses more then 30.5 stat combinations and many diferent runes, weapons, sigils and amount of boon duration under each of thise combinations

Why would a chrono need more than 30? I'm not sure what you play but if it's exclusively PvE, 1-2 builds will carry you through all the content. Not saying it's pointless to use that many builds, but you are definitely a prime candidate who'd spend the money on all these slots. Perhaps in Anet's eyes, they see it similar to the way I see it; most players don't need the templates, let alone 3. Anything outside of that is a sheer luxury, and if players want the luxury, they'll pay for it.

Yes, I would spend money but you cannot have more then 6 now. If there were 30 I would buy them

[Cristalyan.5728]

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@Neutra.6857 said:Oh also, it is rather sad that people are basically saying that this game is in such a bad state that they need to monetize this feature.

You don't pay a monthly subscription fee. So how on earth do you THINK games work without subscriptions? Pixie dust? Black magic? Fervent invocation of deity?

Why are you bothering with this detail? It was not the playerbase who decided for this kind of business. It was ANet, And they claimed it is viable. The only thing a player should do was to buy the game. And we done exactly this. So, now we are called to pay for a wrong decision? Not our decision? HM?

If I have to pay, I will pay to a game where I can find correct decisions.

On the other hand, it was not the playerbase who invented the famous scarcity is good, but Anet. It may be a good moment to make them feel how good is this scarcity.

[starlinvf.1358]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@"Neutra.6857" said:Oh also, it is rather sad that people are basically saying that this game is in such a bad state that they need to monetize this feature.

You don't pay a monthly subscription fee. So how on earth do you THINK games work without subscriptions? Pixie dust? Black magic? Fervent invocation of deity?

Why are you bothering with this detail? It was not the playerbase who decided for this kind of business. It was ANet, And they claimed it is viable. The only thing a player should do was to buy the game. And we done exactly this. So, now we are called to pay for a wrong decision? Not our decision? HM?

If I have to pay, I will pay to a game where I can find correct decisions.

On the other hand, it was not the playerbase who invented the famous

scarcity is good

, but Anet. It may be a good moment to make them feel how good is this scarcity.

Game access was pitched at "buy once", but that always existed in tandem with the Gem store providing on-going income. Guildwars 1 had a supporting store front providing armor skins, knicknacks, account upgrades and supplemental game content.... but it was also very obscured from the game's interface. GW1's business model was to sell whole campaigns as full priced games, which had the benefit of being able to seamlessly translocate characters between them as if they were part of a single game world, but each functioned as independent games that anyone could reasonably buy into as their starting point. This was almost entirely unique to GW1 at the time, as very few single player games supported character imports, and all MMOs had a singular, sequential, linear time line that all players followed (mostly due to how everything ties into leveling).

There was NEVER any doubt that the Gem store would be a bigger part of GW2, and had the potential to tap into the revenue potential of F2P games, but without having the baked-in necessity of leveling and gear enhancement required to keep up with end-game. As much as the gem store has fallen from grace due to changing cultural phenomena, its initial implementation was borderline pointless. There really wasn't any compelling reason to buy into the gem store, unless you were an absolute hardcore farmer that couldn't be arsed to find a merchant at least twice an hour. Magic find wasn't effective at the values we could obtain, Exp came in droves, drops in general were incredibly rare, and processing materials were merely a question of how many salvage kits you were willing to carry. Leveling was very fast, gear was easy to get, very little of the game was actually hard, and the majority of that was how effective you were as a player plus how good your buildcraft was.

See.... the original business model worked on the idea of a consistent rate of new players expanding the existing playerbase, and a % of those occasionally spending money. Thats called "Growth". What fucked everything up was a combination of Anet's slow development rate, and a rapid shift to whaling business models across the industry. Increased competition across the board fighting over the smallest piece of the pie, eventually gave way to the gambling systems that "CREATE" new whales that wouldn't otherwise exist in older, less subjective systems.

The model they proposed IS viable.... but it doesn't make incomprehensible amounts of money like the ones you see today. Players let it get this way, because the younger generations were exposed to monetization systems earlier in life, most of the game they play are based on this, and is complacent about it, because this is how its always been to them. Older gens that aren't gamers fell victim to similar traps in other areas of commerce, but the convenience they gain is at least tangible. Gen X grew up in a sweet spot where games were still considered products, and there existed an obvious separation in how marketing, game design, and reward systems worked. Marketing could sell you on a bad game, but it would never be confused for a good one. Now that marketing permeates into every facet of daily life, separating them is difficult, even when knowing how it works.

The first step to realizing how little you know is to admit that your decisions aren't always your own. Your choices are the product of multiple influences..... some from your own experiences, some manipulated through forced perspective, but never entirely in your control. Anet did NOT invent "scarcity is good"..... that has existed for as long as creatures had realized rare things often have value. But Anet only started leaning into it after a series of events proved it was stupidly effective, despite other existing systems being more generous to the players; or more specifically BECAUSE of it. Remember when I said drops used to be rare...... today we don't give a crap about 99% of things that we get, because all we do is process it into ubiquitous gold- and then complain about how we never have enough gold. Instead we're heavily fixated on things which are obvious bottle necks at a given moment, only to quickly forget they exist once the bottleneck is no longer a concern. Out of sight, out of mind. Because Scarcity keeps those bottlenecks at the forefront longer, we get frustrated into finding ways to bypass them as quickly as possible. But the irony is if that scarcity was removed, we have historically complained about having nothing worth doing. Our sense of catharsis is so damaged at this point, success is as much an enemy as desire. We want to Want, because "wanting" is the only thing giving anything value in this version of culture. Don't believe me? Just look at how how everything in our entertainment is sprawling sagas of on-going narratives, expanding catalogs, and endless loops of activities, despite our internal belief that what we want is a satisfying ending. In truth, we just gorge on things because of their novelty, and get bored with it once that novelty wears off. I remember beanie babies.... do you?

[Astralporing.1957]

@Dante.1508 said:Welp it sucks, but its within Anets right to do this, so live with it or don't imo.

I guess a lot of people here are new to mmorpgs business practices.It's the opposite. 7 years ago this would have delegated this game to the ranks of worst freemium games out there. Today, people think it's tame and okay. The games turned out really predatory within last few years - and the fact that most other game companies are also doing it is no excuse, and doesn't make it any less bad. And our acceptance on the issue is exactly the reason why it gets worse and worse.

Do't think it's going to stop here, by the way. One accidental slip sugested, that they at least are already thinking about selling especs. One has to wonder, how they are going to monetize jeweller 500, WvW alliances and Swiss tournaments (because at this point i am 99% sure they will find a way).

Wha's going to be next?

[CptAurellian.9537]

@rabenpriester.7129 said:Not talking about the use of legendary gear or how it is bagspace or whatever. I just need more slots or this system is worthless to me and a straight downgrade from arc days. I don't want that.That's the main problem. We already have a system, it's free (apart from bag space requirements) and it's way superior to the announced system, which is a massive downgrade. With the expected loss of ArcTemplates, this is a massive and unacceptable deterioration of QoL.

[rabenpriester.7129]

Topics have been merged, now this thread is absolute chaos. Thanks mods, very cool!

[Voltekka.2375]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Welp it sucks, but its within Anets right to do this, so live with it or don't imo.

I guess a lot of people here are new to mmorpgs business practices.It's the opposite. 7 years ago this would have delegated this game to the ranks of worst freemium games out there. Today, people think it's tame and okay. The games turned out really predatory within last few years - and the fact that most other game companies are also doing it is no excuse, and doesn't make it any less bad. And our acceptance on the issue is exactly the reason why it gets worse and worse.

Do't think it's going to stop here, by the way. One accidental slip sugested, that they at least are already thinking about selling especs. One has to wonder, how they are going to monetize jeweller 500, WvW alliances and Swiss tournaments (because at this point i am 99% sure they

will

find a way).

Wha's going to be next?

Most people wont care. If they have fun and the game survives longer, they will buy alliances/especs/jeweller or whatnot. To some people this is unacceptable, bad practice, call it what you will. But it may get the game going, as well, into a better direction than what it is in today.

[Dante.1508]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Welp it sucks, but its within Anets right to do this, so live with it or don't imo.

I guess a lot of people here are new to mmorpgs business practices.It's the opposite. 7 years ago this would have delegated this game to the ranks of worst freemium games out there. Today, people think it's tame and okay. The games turned out really predatory within last few years - and the fact that most other game companies are also doing it is no excuse, and doesn't make it any less bad. And our acceptance on the issue is exactly the reason why it gets worse and worse.

Do't think it's going to stop here, by the way. One accidental slip sugested, that they at least are already thinking about selling especs. One has to wonder, how they are going to monetize jeweller 500, WvW alliances and Swiss tournaments (because at this point i am 99% sure they

will

find a way).

Wha's going to be next?

I don't think its ok at all, i think its pretty standard big business practices.. Sadly its become like this.. Not good at all but not surprising either.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Voltekka.2375" said:Most people wont care. If they have fun and the game survives longer, they will buy alliances/especs/jeweller or whatnot. To some people this is unacceptable, bad practice, call it what you will. But it may get the game going, as well, into a better direction than what it is in today.Considering that following that path is one of the things that get the game in a worse direction, i find it extremely unlikely.

I know of no single example of a game that succumbed to the dark side of monetization that would get back from it on their own. They will continue to plunge deeper and deeper unless they are shown by exterior pressure that it simply doesn't pay. As long as people will keep supporting them on this path (or at the very least keep being silent, because it is "business as usual"), it will continue to get worse and worse.

[Thundabolt.8541]

I've always felt that you should pay for how much you think the game in general is worth. If you're getting more time out of playing it, I don't see why spending a little cash is so bad. I play this game more than any console game I play, so I'm happy to pay for keys or skins, or convert gems to gold from time to time. It keeps me playing for longer.

I do understand that build templates were free in GW1. I played GW1 and made use of them. I'm not saying it's fair to charge money. I'm just saying I already spend money on this game from time to time, so I wouldn't mind purchasing more BT slots.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Thundabolt.8541 said:I've always felt that you should pay for how much you think the game in general is worth. If you're getting more time out of playing it, I don't see why spending a little cash is so bad.It's not a little. We're not talking 10-20 USD here. We're talking hundreds of USD here. Just to make one feature bearably functional.

[kharmin.7683]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Thundabolt.8541 said:I've always felt that you should pay for how much you think the game in general is worth. If you're getting more time out of playing it, I don't see why spending a little cash is so bad.It's not a little. We're not talking 10-20 USD here. We're talking hundreds of USD here. Just to make one feature bearably functional.

But it is a convenience feature, not a requirement to play the game. A feature that wasn't available prior to the acceptance of a third-party add-on.

[Astralporing.1957]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Thundabolt.8541 said:I've always felt that you should pay for how much you think the game in general is worth. If you're getting more time out of playing it, I don't see why spending a little cash is so bad.It's not a little. We're not talking 10-20 USD here. We're talking hundreds of USD here. Just to make one feature bearably functional.

But it is a convenience feature, not a requirement to play the game. A feature that wasn't available prior to the acceptance of a third-party add-on.How would you feel if they started selling especs for 100 USD apiece? That would be okay, i guess, since they wouldn;t be a requirement to play the game, right?

[Saniyah.1984]

@Sazukikrah.5036 said:People will complain about anything.. How many builds do you need bro? You played the game this long without it now its a problem? Jesus Christ.

Eh arcdps exists so not without it :P

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:

No. Build templates from ARCDPS were never intended to be permanent. They technically break the TOS but Anet allowed them until they had their own version in the game.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/704oem/build_templates_actual_release/

Why do you kept bringing that up. It is not a good excuse to sell you anything less then you had before with the original being sanctioned or not, it totally made no sense

[kharmin.7683]

Especs came with expansions, so they were part of that purchase price. Should templates have been in an expansion? Probably, yes, to help offset the concerns for their costs but with no expansion on the horizon, my guess is that it was decided to release templates now. With no cost associated with templates (not being in an expansion), they need to make some kind of profit for the work that was put into them -- thus charging for them.

[Healix.5819]

The problem is that they're implementing multiple systems simultaneously all under the name of templates - the extra tabs are not templates and would normally have some cost attached.

The chat code feature should have been implemented first, months prior to announcing anything else. There's no reason they couldn't have done the same for equipment - the only problem is that the existing system doesn't support infusions, but that doesn't matter because people would have adapted to not using identical items. Both of these should have been used via chat, such as "/equip [buildcode]" and "/equip [item1][item2][etc]". This should have been trivial to implement with that they have now. Weeks after that was implemented, they could have added a very simple UI and stored the builds locally if people were still complaining about having to do it manually. Months after that is when they should have released the tabs as their own separate thing, and they should have included skins so it could have doubled as a custom costume, which would likely appeal to far more people.

[Radiobiology.6185]

This is not really a new subject and i'm too lazy to write a long message for blind eyes. But i want to say that i agree that the monetization of this game is a travesty. I used to buy gems, not because i felt like i had to, but because i wanted to support Arenanet. Now i have been boycotting gem purchases for years, simply because i find it ridiculous, all the things they managed to put into or link to the gemstore.

I would still be willing to pay for a meaty expansion pack filled with content (not skins). But the gemstore is on a complete boycott for me at this point, and i'm sure others feel the same, which can be seen in the quarterly reports. The first round of layoffs didnt seem to send a clear enough message, lets see if the second round will.

PS. I wrote this message for another thread that was criticizing the state of the game and how its tied to the gemstore in general. But the chinese (Arenanet) censorship agency found and deleted it before i had a chance to press post. So i'll post it here instead i guess.

[Obtena.7952]

@Neutra.6857 said:a thing that should have been in base game and should not be bought at all.

Wait a minute .. that doesn't make sense. Even the base features in this game ... you DID pay to get access to. Anet didn't hand out a couple million copies of this game for nothing when it was released IIRC. If you think you didn't pay for access to features in this game THROUGHOUT it's existence, you really don't know what you are paying for and how this works.

[Obtena.7952]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Thundabolt.8541 said:I've always felt that you should pay for how much you think the game in general is worth. If you're getting more time out of playing it, I don't see why spending a little cash is so bad.It's not a little. We're not talking 10-20 USD here. We're talking hundreds of USD here. Just to make one feature bearably functional.

But it is a convenience feature, not a requirement to play the game. A feature that wasn't available prior to the acceptance of a third-party add-on.How would you feel if they started selling especs for 100 USD apiece? That would be okay, i guess, since they wouldn;t be a requirement to play the game, right?

That IS right actually ... if the cost to purchase is not equal to the value you think you would get from it, you wouldn't buy it. You make that kind of decision EVERY TIME you buy something. How anyone feels about that goes into that decision. If people don't buy more template slots because they feel entitled to free ones, they don't have to. It's not needed to play.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Thundabolt.8541 said:I've always felt that you should pay for how much you think the game in general is worth. If you're getting more time out of playing it, I don't see why spending a little cash is so bad.It's not a little. We're not talking 10-20 USD here. We're talking hundreds of USD here. Just to make one feature bearably functional.

But it is a convenience feature, not a requirement to play the game. A feature that wasn't available prior to the acceptance of a third-party add-on.How would you feel if they started selling especs for 100 USD apiece? That would be okay, i guess, since they wouldn;t be a requirement to play the game, right?

That IS right actually ... if the cost to purchase is not equal to the value you think you would get from it, you wouldn't buy it. You make that kind of decision EVERY TIME you buy something. How anyone feels about that goes into that decision. If people don't buy more template slots because they feel entitled to free ones, they don't have to. It's not needed to play.Nothing is really needed to play. That's a non-argument.

[Obtena.7952]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Thundabolt.8541 said:I've always felt that you should pay for how much you think the game in general is worth. If you're getting more time out of playing it, I don't see why spending a little cash is so bad.It's not a little. We're not talking 10-20 USD here. We're talking hundreds of USD here. Just to make one feature bearably functional.

But it is a convenience feature, not a requirement to play the game. A feature that wasn't available prior to the acceptance of a third-party add-on.How would you feel if they started selling especs for 100 USD apiece? That would be okay, i guess, since they wouldn;t be a requirement to play the game, right?

That IS right actually ... if the cost to purchase is not equal to the value you think you would get from it, you wouldn't buy it. You make that kind of decision EVERY TIME you buy something. How anyone feels about that goes into that decision. If people don't buy more template slots because they feel entitled to free ones, they don't have to. It's not needed to play.Nothing is really needed to play. That's a non-argument.

That's fine. My argument is that if you don't think something is of value to you, you shouldn't buy it. It works itself out naturally. The fact you don't need it is why this isn't a problem if you think it's not value to you.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Obtena.7952" said:That's fine. My argument is that if you don't think something is of value to you, you shouldn't buy it. It works itself out naturally. The fact you don't need it is why this isn't a problem if you think it's not value to you.No, i meant that your meaning of "need" is so narrow it is not an argument, because you can explain locking anything away behind gemshop purchases that way. Unlocking classes, especs, skills, traitlines... you don't need those to play the game. You don't even need dodge roll, so why don't we lock it also behind a purchase?

[Asum.4960]

I still remember when the game launched and we as community asked ArenaNet to put more things in the almost completely empty Gem Store, just so we could spend the Gems that we already bought with RL money just to support the company for making content and an amazing game.

Now, a few years later, pretty much everything is Gem Store only, and they sell core game features like build templates for what totals to literally hundreds of Euros for just one character of each profession, while still being way too limited for veteran players engaged in endgame content after that possibly 400€+ paywall.

It's honestly not surprising even company founders seemingly don't want that to be part of their legacy/happening on their watch.This isn't about "devs needing to get payed for their work". This is plain corporate greed.

[Taygus.4571]

@"Asum.4960" said:I still remember when the game launched and we as community asked ArenaNet to put more things in the almost completely empty Gem Store, just so we could spend the Gems that we already bought with RL money just to support the company for making content and an amazing game.

Now, a few years later, pretty much everything is Gem Store only, and they sell core game features like build templates for what totals to literally hundreds of Euros for just one character of each profession, while still being way too limited for veteran players engaged in endgame content after that possibly 400€+ paywall.

It's honestly not surprising even company founders seemingly don't want that to be part of their legacy/happening on their watch.This isn't about "devs needing to get payed for their work". This is plain greed.

Agree.

They could sell the template feature as a once off, for 40€ ..fully unlocked on all characters and it would be "ok". Not great but at least you don't have to buy it for every charcater.

as it is, is absolutely rakes the hardcore players.Like as it is its perfect for me....but I completely understand why it's such a problem. I hope anet seriously considers the cost.

[Kas.3509]

Not only the cost (if 25$ is an expansion why is this so damn expensive??? I am willing to pay, but like 10$ lol), but the functionality of it too...

I farmed hard for the damn legendary armor. Some people complain people with ascended gear gain a lot more from this due to free inventory space (which is true).But for me, the problem is - if I'm using legendary armor I am stuck with one look for every build and people with ascended armor are not. How is it fair?I want my assasin healer tank etc. build to look different - these are completely different themes - and not having to transmute by hand every time after using template. People with ascended gear will not have this problem...

In the end not only I'll have to pay $ - a lot more than I should - but also buy ascended gear and throw away my lege armor? Really? If that's the case it seriously sucks.Why people with ascended armor gain a lot more (inventory slots and different looks) compared to lege? That makes me sad. I don't care about them gaining more. I care about the fact that I worked so hard and now I can basically just delete those damn items...